Thanks for the input everyone. I know that GFCI protectors in North America will trip between 4-6mA. Do other countries, such as Europe, have the same requirements? Or are 30mA protectors used in Europe? If so, does Europe use 30mA ground fault protectors because of nuisance tripping even though the studies have shown that 30mA can be fatal?
These 3-phase cut-off saws that I’m evaluating comes with a power cord, but no plug. They can be field wired or a plug could be added and plugged it into a receptacle. The choice is left up to the customer. The saw uses water but the work environment would not normally be considered a “wet location”. It would not be used in a construction location. So again, I’m trying to figure out why the saw manufacturer used the expensive 30mA ground fault breakers in their product. Thanks, The Other Brian From: Ted Eckert [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 6:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE My understanding isn’t as clear as I would like it to be, so the information I am providing is suspect. I believe that the difference in trip points between North America and Europe is due to grounding, wiring and power distribution practices. The power distribution systems used in North America allow a trip point of nominally 5 mA (4 – 6 mA) without a significant risk of nuisance tripping. However, European wiring practices are such that nuisance tripping would be more likely at 5 mA and, as such, 30 mA is used as the limit. Is the 3-phase saw plug connected or field wired? Is it used in a potentially wet environment? In North America, portable power distribution units, typically used at construction sites, must have protection because it is expected that the user will connect power tools that will be used in wet environments. However, for a field wired saw installed in a workshop would likely not require a GFCI. Much of this comes from the electrical code. Any standards that specify the additional protection do so because the code requires it. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. -----Original Message----- From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:43 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Agreed, and current carry-carrying of PE and bonding of internal parts must meet stringent UL/CSA requirements. (not mA!) It seems to me that 30mA is close to lethal, and the GFCI outlets Listed over here are 6mA trip. (still a painful shock) Ralph McDiarmid Product Compliance Specialist Solar Business Schneider Electric From: John Woodgate [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:30 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE I don't think that is the reason recognized in Europe. The PE circuit has the same (or similar) current-carrying capacity as the line circuit(s), so its fault-current capacity for 30 s is very large even for a household supply. I think the protector is there to prevent fire and to give some protection against electric shock, although the latter is compromised so as to prevent nuisance-tripping, which would occur if the trip were set at say 5 mA to give much better protection. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C332841906ad44ef66eaa08d5683526de%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636529499853637893&sdata=hM9ZJbor9gxzRIIwUYV0KkogbsHqlWIDv%2BCi2VRAr5I%3D&reserved=0 Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-01-30 22:03, Kunde, Brian wrote: I’ve recently come to understand that the 30mA Ground-Fault protectors, often built into a circuit breaker, is intended to protect the Protective Earth (Safety Ground) circuit in the case of a short circuit (opening the circuit before the safety ground could be damaged. It this correct? Here is my question. I’m evaluating a cut-off saw (5hp) which uses water to keep the blade and material cool. The manufacturer uses a 3-phase supplementary circuit breaker which includes the 30mA GFPE option. This is a very expensive part. When I asked them why they use the GFPE part, they couldn’t give me a good answer. Would such a part be required on a 3-phase motor driven cutoff saw in either North America or Europe? What standard would dictate this? If the only purpose of a GFPE is to protect the Ground Circuit, on products that can handle shorts without damaging the ground circuit, would a GFPE still be necessary? Where are GFPE typically used? What industry? Please educate me. This is a new one on me. Thanks, Brian From: Doug Nix [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 2:48 PM To: mailto:[email protected] Subject: [PSES] JOB POSTING - ONTARIO, CANADA PLEASE CONTACT TED TYCZKA DIRECTLY A very notable, “high-profile” client who is seeking a Safety & Services Sales/Business Development Professional - to join their Machine Services Division - the focus of the role is to spearhead/lead the sale of Engineering Services related to “functional safety.” The company sells safety training (workshops), machine assessment/audits, engineering design per CSA and/or TUV Safety requirements (“Regulatory Compliance”). The company also sells Remediation and Repair Services (of industrial machines) together with Service Contracts ... to customers in the aerospace, automotive, forestry, food & beverage, as well as, the packaging sectors. The Safety & Services/Business Development Professional can work from a home office - anywhere in Ontario. A Bachelor of Science in Mechanical or Electrical Engineering, together with the sale of Machine Safeguard devices and the application of these, would be desired ... together, with some exposure to Industrial Automation and perhaps Robotics. The key is to have some knowledge of safety components, safety scanners, switches, controllers, etc. as well as machine building experience. The employer (a very reputable, Global entity/brand) ... who provide a very competitive base salary, lucrative annual bonus/incentive program vs. results, plus monthly car allowance, Benefits, Matching RRSP + (Training, Career Opportunities and upward mobility). They are good people, seek an ambitious self-starter who can cover sales from the “shop floor” level to the “C Suite” (Boardroom). The company have established Sales Reps across Canada ... who can work with the Safety & Services Sales Specialist ... this role requires “consultative and solutions oriented selling ability. I will ensure absolute confidentiality. Nice opportunity with a great organization and strong, capable leadership. Thanks. Kind professional regards, Ted Tyczka President Golden Mile Management – Consulting Services 2630 Eglinton Avenue East, Toronto, Ontario M1K 2S3 Tel: (416) 266 - 4434 Email: mailto:[email protected] Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmmcs.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C332841906ad44ef66eaa08d5683526de%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636529499853637893&sdata=rvAv8X4c%2BEcKm%2BB7ReOa3shnFCrOjHMeT1bV%2FpkTkvg%3D&reserved=0 - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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