Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

[John Woodgate]

There is a motor and a blade, which both move and are linked. In a 
cut-off saw, If I have the term right, the whole motor and blade housing 
swings on a pivot at the back of the baseplate.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-01-31 21:33, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:

I am surprised a basic cut-off saw would fit the definition of 
‘machine’ for the MD since cut-off  saws (the one’s I’m thinking of) 
are basically just a motor with a blade mounted directly to the 
armature and I don’t know that the blade is even considered part of 
the product.  Not really an assembly of linked parts at least one of 
which moves, and which are joined together for a specific application.

-Dave

*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:58 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

IEC 62841 is a multi-part standard with 23 documents. But it's all 
about 'hand-held', so unless the 300 lb product is intended for 
Superman or King Kong. they don't apply.

Wiring codes do not specify requirements for load products, except in 
very general terms. Safety requirements for products are in product 
safety standards.

In Europe, a cut-off saw is a 'machine', so the Machinery Directive 
applies. This influences which safety standard is permitted to be 
applied to the product.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-01-31 18:38, Kunde, Brian wrote:

    Most interesting.  Thanks.

    *From:*msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
    [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
    *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:27 PM
    *To:* Kunde, Brian
    *Cc:* EMC-PSTC
    *Subject:* [BULK] Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
    *Importance:* Low

    IEC TC 116 in in the process of folding the 60745-1 (hand held
    motor operated tool) standards into the 62841 series (Electric
    motor-operated hand-held tools, transportable tools and lawn and
    garden machinery). See their dashboard at:

    
http://www.iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=103:30:13397277133783::::FSP_ORG_ID,FSP_LANG_ID:4112,25

    My reference was not from a part 2, but actually from section
    21.16 of 60745-1:

    "

    Tools employing liquid systems shall protect the user against the
    increased risk of
    shock due to the presence of liquid under conditions of normal use
    and the faults of the liquid
    system.
    Tools employing liquid systems shall be either:
    • of class III construction;
    • of class I or class II construction and be provided with a
    residual current device and comply
    with 14.4, 14.5 and 14.6; or
    • of class I or class II construction and be designed for use in
    combination with an isolating
    transformer and comply with 14.4 and 14.5.

    "

    Section 14.4 describes using a salt water mix to simulate
    overfilling or misassembling and then testing for leakage.

    I do not know whether your product falls within scope of 62841;
    perhaps your favorite NRTL could help. Your favorite NRTL might
    even have someone on the committee who could help with a question.

    Mike

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *From: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com
    <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
    *To: *msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
    *Cc: *"EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
    <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
    *Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:58:25 AM
    *Subject: *RE: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

    Mike,

    Thanks for your offer. I assume the requirement for RCD is limited
    to hand-held or portable power tools that uses water. This is
    interesting because I didn’t know this was a requirement.

    In our case, the cut-off saw we are looking at weighs over 300
    lbs. Defiantly not hand-held any probably not considered portable
    (depending on your definition).

    Do you know if there are similar requirements for non-hand-held
    electric saws/tools?

    Thanks,

    The Other Brian

    *From:*msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
    [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
    *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:29 PM
    *To:* Kunde, Brian
    *Cc:* EMC-PSTC
    *Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

    Brian --

    I think I've seen a Part 2 standard for 60745-1, as I recall, that
    required a RCD if the tool used water and the water ended up in
    the wrong place electrically. If you'd like a screen shot of the
    section, I can probably find it for you.

    Mike Sherman

    Graco Inc.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *From: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com
    <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
    *To: *"EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
    <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
    *Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:06:36 AM
    *Subject: *Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

    Where Pete stated, “The Euro systems use of RCDs require this
    protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the
    installation code details)”. This “Code” is probably what I am
    seeking.

    Has anyone run across a Code rule that requires the Product to
    employ a RCCB within the product?  If the local electrical code
    requires a RCCB, cannot this protection be provided as part of the
    site protection?  Why burden the cost of a product where such a
    requirement may only be necessary in a small percentage of
    installations?

    The main purpose of my question on this topic is cost.  Here in
    the USA, a GFCI receptacle is very inexpensive; costing around $10
    at most home stores.  But a 3-phase RCD Circuit Breaker can cost
    $300-$400.  On some products, such as a tile saw that uses water,
    this can more than double the cost of the entire product.  So
    knowing when and where they are required is very important.

    Thanks again to everyone for your consideration.  From what I have
    read so far on this topic, it is a moving target as electric codes
    from different states and countries are always evolving and the
    code governing the requirements of RCDs and GFCIs are common to
    change.

    Thanks,

    Brian

    *From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
    *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:13 AM
    *To:* Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
    <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
    *Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

    You can rely on the recent post in this thread by Pete Perkins.

    John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

    J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>

    Rayleigh, Essex UK

    On 2018-01-31 15:52, Kunde, Brian wrote:

        Thanks for the input everyone.

        I know that GFCI protectors in North America will trip between
        4-6mA.  Do other countries, such as Europe, have the same
        requirements?

        Or are 30mA protectors used in Europe? If so, does Europe use
        30mA ground fault protectors because of nuisance tripping even
        though the studies have shown that 30mA can be fatal?

        These 3-phase cut-off saws that I’m evaluating comes with a
        power cord, but no plug. They can be field wired or a plug
        could be added and plugged it into a receptacle.  The choice
        is left up to the customer.

        The saw uses water but the work environment would not normally
        be considered a “wet location”.  It would not be used in a
        construction location.

        So again, I’m trying to figure out why the saw manufacturer
        used the expensive 30mA ground fault breakers in their product.

        Thanks,

        The Other Brian

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


              *LECO Corporation Notice:*This communication may contain
              confidential information intended for the named
              recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake,
              please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

    -
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
    emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
    e-mail to &LT;emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>&GT;

    All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
    http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
    <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>

    Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
    site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
    <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics
    (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

    Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
    Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
    unsubscribe)
    List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

    For help, send mail to the list administrators:
    Scott Douglas &LT;sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>&GT;
    Mike Cantwell &LT;mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>&GT;

    For policy questions, send mail to:
    Jim Bacher &LT;j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>&GT;
    David Heald &LT;dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>&GT;

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


              *LECO Corporation Notice:*This communication may contain
              confidential information intended for the named
              recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake,
              please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


              *LECO Corporation Notice:*This communication may contain
              confidential information intended for the named
              recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake,
              please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

    -
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
    emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
    e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

    All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
    http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
    <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>

    Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
    site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
    <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics
    (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

    Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
    Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
    unsubscribe)
    List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

    For help, send mail to the list administrators:
    Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
    Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

    For policy questions, send mail to:
    Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
    David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-
----------------------------------------------------------------

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in 
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>



-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>