Re: [PSES] Fwd: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

[John Woodgate]

Another case of the IEV having a different definition from that used in 
the industry!

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-02-01 02:10, Mike Sherman wrote:
A copy of what I inadvertently only sent to Brian earlier...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *msherma...@comcast.net
*To: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com>
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 7:58:40 PM
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

I found a copy of 62841-1:2015. In its definition section:
"3.58

transportable tool
tool that has the following characteristics:
a) intended to be taken to various designated working areas. The tool 
performs work on the
material that is either brought to the tool, the tool is mounted to 
the workpiece or the tool is
placed in proximity of the workpiece;
b) intended to be moved by one or two people, with or without simple 
devices to facilitate
transportation, e.g. handles, wheels and the like;
c) used in a stationary position set up on a bench, table, floor or 
incorporating a device that
performs the function of a bench or table, with or without fixing, 
e.g. fast clamping devices,
bolting and the like, or mounted to the workpiece;
d) used under the control of an operator;
e) either the workpiece or the tool is fed or introduced manually;
f) not intended for continuous production or production line use;
g) if mains operated, supplied with a flexible supply cord and plug"


and I also found this

"21.15 Tools employing liquid systems shall protect the user against 
the increased risk of

shock due to the presence of liquid under faults of the liquid system.
Tools employing liquid systems shall be either:
– of class III construction; or
– of class I or class II construction and be provided with a residual 
current device and
comply with 14.3, 14.4 and 14.5; or
– of class I or class II construction and be designed for use in 
combination with an isolating
transformer and comply with 14.3 and 14.4."


------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com>
*To: *"EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:51:07 PM
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

So in this context, what does “transportable” mean?  I always thought 
it meant tools that are used on the move, but I cannot image using a 
table saw while it is moving.

Thanks,

The Other Brian

*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 2:37 PM
*To:* Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

No, It isn't all about hand-held. The list of Sections dropped below 
my screen. The relevant standard is probably:

*IEC 62841-3-1:2014 <https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/7454>*

Edition 1.0 (2014-06-04)

Electric motor-operated hand-held tools, transportable tools and lawn 
and garden machinery - Safety - Part 3-1: Particular requirements for 
transportable table saws

  
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-01-31 18:57, John Woodgate wrote:

    IEC 62841 is a multi-part standard with 23 documents. But it's all
    about 'hand-held', so unless the 300 lb product is intended for
    Superman or King Kong. they don't apply.

    Wiring codes do not specify requirements for load products, except
    in very general terms. Safety requirements for products are in
    product safety standards.

    In Europe, a cut-off saw is a 'machine', so the Machinery
    Directive applies. This influences which safety standard is
    permitted to be applied to the product.

    John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

    J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>

    Rayleigh, Essex UK

    On 2018-01-31 18:38, Kunde, Brian wrote:

        Most interesting.  Thanks.

        *From:*msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
        [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
        *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:27 PM
        *To:* Kunde, Brian
        *Cc:* EMC-PSTC
        *Subject:* [BULK] Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
        *Importance:* Low

        IEC TC 116 in in the process of folding the 60745-1 (hand held
        motor operated tool) standards into the 62841 series (Electric
        motor-operated hand-held tools, transportable tools and lawn
        and garden machinery). See their dashboard at:

        
http://www.iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=103:30:13397277133783::::FSP_ORG_ID,FSP_LANG_ID:4112,25

        My reference was not from a part 2, but actually from section
        21.16 of 60745-1:

        "

        Tools employing liquid systems shall protect the user against
        the increased risk of
        shock due to the presence of liquid under conditions of normal
        use and the faults of the liquid
        system.
        Tools employing liquid systems shall be either:
        • of class III construction;
        • of class I or class II construction and be provided with a
        residual current device and comply
        with 14.4, 14.5 and 14.6; or
        • of class I or class II construction and be designed for use
        in combination with an isolating
        transformer and comply with 14.4 and 14.5.

        "

        Section 14.4 describes using a salt water mix to simulate
        overfilling or misassembling and then testing for leakage.

        I do not know whether your product falls within scope of
        62841; perhaps your favorite NRTL could help. Your favorite
        NRTL might even have someone on the committee who could help
        with a question.

        Mike

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        *From: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com
        <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
        *To: *msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
        *Cc: *"EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
        <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
        *Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:58:25 AM
        *Subject: *RE: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

        Mike,

        Thanks for your offer. I assume the requirement for RCD is
        limited to hand-held or portable power tools that uses water.
        This is interesting because I didn’t know this was a requirement.

        In our case, the cut-off saw we are looking at weighs over 300
        lbs. Defiantly not hand-held any probably not considered
        portable (depending on your definition).

        Do you know if there are similar requirements for
        non-hand-held electric saws/tools?

        Thanks,

        The Other Brian

        *From:*msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
        [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
        *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:29 PM
        *To:* Kunde, Brian
        *Cc:* EMC-PSTC
        *Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

        Brian --

        I think I've seen a Part 2 standard for 60745-1, as I recall,
        that required a RCD if the tool used water and the water ended
        up in the wrong place electrically. If you'd like a screen
        shot of the section, I can probably find it for you.

        Mike Sherman

        Graco Inc.

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        *From: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com
        <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
        *To: *"EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
        <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
        *Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:06:36 AM
        *Subject: *Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

        Where Pete stated, “The Euro systems use of RCDs require this
        protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with
        the installation code details)”. This “Code” is probably what
        I am seeking.

        Has anyone run across a Code rule that requires the Product to
        employ a RCCB within the product?  If the local electrical
        code requires a RCCB, cannot this protection be provided as
        part of the site protection?  Why burden the cost of a product
        where such a requirement may only be necessary in a small
        percentage of installations?

        The main purpose of my question on this topic is cost.  Here
        in the USA, a GFCI receptacle is very inexpensive; costing
        around $10 at most home stores.  But a 3-phase RCD Circuit
        Breaker can cost $300-$400.  On some products, such as a tile
        saw that uses water, this can more than double the cost of the
        entire product.  So knowing when and where they are required
        is very important.

        Thanks again to everyone for your consideration.  From what I
        have read so far on this topic, it is a moving target as
        electric codes from different states and countries are always
        evolving and the code governing the requirements of RCDs and
        GFCIs are common to change.

        Thanks,

        Brian

        *From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
        *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:13 AM
        *To:* Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
        <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
        *Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE

        You can rely on the recent post in this thread by Pete Perkins.

        John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

        J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>

        Rayleigh, Essex UK

        On 2018-01-31 15:52, Kunde, Brian wrote:

            Thanks for the input everyone.

            I know that GFCI protectors in North America will trip
            between 4-6mA.  Do other countries, such as Europe, have
            the same requirements?

            Or are 30mA protectors used in Europe? If so, does Europe
            use 30mA ground fault protectors because of nuisance
            tripping even though the studies have shown that 30mA can
            be fatal?

            These 3-phase cut-off saws that I’m evaluating comes with
            a power cord, but no plug. They can be field wired or a
            plug could be added and plugged it into a receptacle.  The
            choice is left up to the customer.

            The saw uses water but the work environment would not
            normally be considered a “wet location”.  It would not be
            used in a construction location.

            So again, I’m trying to figure out why the saw
            manufacturer used the expensive 30mA ground fault breakers
            in their product.

            Thanks,

            The Other Brian

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