One time the meeting was at the French Riviera. The Paris airport would have been better for most everyone. I just object to having the meeting at vacation destinations that require substantial extra travel and expenses for attendees.
I attended the IEC meetings for several years on behalf of the US and saw many inefficiencies that added substantial costs to attendees without any benefits to the job at hand. Doug Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 2:50:46 PM To: doug emcesd.com <d...@emcesd.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) The discussion is becoming more general, but perhaps it needs to be. The way IEC works is that meetings are held where invitations have been given, and that can be almost anywhere in the world, except most of Africa. So what is hard to get to for you, is near home for others. In any case, you can influence 61000-4-2 through the US TAG. I know that's not free of charge, so the other way is to discuss privately with any one or more of the six US experts on SC77B MT12. IEC has used Webex and GotoMeeting and now uses Zoom, but electronic communication is not good enough to completely substitute for face-to-face. I applaud your pro bono activities. But to do all that and then jib at digging out the papers you cite as the solution to the ESD issues doesn't gel. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-10-15 22:18, doug emcesd.com wrote: In the past I have spent much more, sometimes 5x that in one month. I would still do so if the standards bodies were interested in efficiently getting results. Many of them schedule meetings in expensive, hard to get to spots to wiggle a vacation out of their employers, from my observations. Not going to donate to that. I do a lot to help the common good, but now I require the recipient to be mindful of efficiency. Most are, with some standards bodies the exception. They hardly need meetings anymore. The meetings themselves could be done by Webex or GoToMeeting just as well. A lot of what I do is develop tests and private standards that actually result in equipment that works in the intended environment. For the common good, I have published more free information for no compensation than about anyone, about 300 articles on https://emcesd.com . Doug Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org> Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk><mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 1:28:51 PM To: doug emcesd.com <d...@emcesd.com><mailto:d...@emcesd.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG><mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) If the standard, or indeed the underlying technology, really needs to be improved, someone has to spend a dollar or two. I spend the GBP equivalent of about USD2000 a year on standards work I can't charge to clients (because it benefits all, not just one client). YMMV. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-10-15 21:13, doug emcesd.com wrote: They were in the EOS/ESD Symposium records for years in the late 90s or early 2000s. Some may also be in the EMC Symposium records as well. Look for authors names including myself, Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Robert Renninger, and Hugh Hyatt. There were many other people involved that I don’t have the names handy. Hall, Hyatt, and possibly others are deceased now. This effort went on for years with dozens of engineers. We had 5-20 GHz scopes back then that were insanely expensive. It is unlikely that a committee today could find additional useful information. I have most of the original data and pictures somewhere in a box. It would take a day or two to find it, which I don’t have. Some of it may be on an old server I have packed away as well, but that too would also take a day to setup again, if it still works. I can’t spend any time on it unless compensated as it would mess up my income stream, which need to cover substantial business expenses. Doug Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org> Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Jeff Keyzer <j...@mightyohm.com><mailto:j...@mightyohm.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:58:52 AM To: doug emcesd.com <d...@emcesd.com><mailto:d...@emcesd.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG><mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) Doug, Are these papers online somewhere? I looked at the ESDA site but I could not find an archive of papers. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place. Cheers, Jeff From: doug emcesd.com [mailto:d...@emcesd.com] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 10:39 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The culprit is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM radiation from the simulator. The two factors dominate everything else. No need to duplicate previous work. Just read the papers on the results from the significant amount of research that was done, of which I was a part. Doug Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org> Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com<mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on equipment performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to test facilities, I would want to know that the variability between test facilities due to practice are not the dominating factor. I would want to improve test procedure controls to where everyone does the test close enough to the same that if there is still unacceptable variability, then, and only then, do we look at the test equipment. In order to assess that, you would round-robin using the same model of gun. Perhaps that is one of the many things to which Doug referred. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 ________________________________ From: "doug emcesd.com" <d...@emcesd.com<mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" <d...@emcesd.com<mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:41:42 +0000 To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Conversation: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) Hi Montara, There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written is not very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and determined what was necessary. We also did a lot of round robin testing. Probably most of what you want has been published in the 1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from the era. Look for authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 61000-4-2), Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt. Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members for various reasons that I do not consider valid. Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org> Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Monrad Monsen <monrad.mon...@oracle.com<mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2) Hi! Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator? I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD waveform verification (some call this “calibration”) because under today’s rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results. Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled parameter directly affects spectral content. I would like to know if anyone has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when using different Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all calibrated simulators under today’s rules. I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as local labs, so I have never observed this issue myself. My initial preference is to not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy new ESD simulators, but perhaps this cost is warranted if there are actual wide variations in ESD test results depending on the brand of ESD simulator. Thanks. Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist Phone: +1.303.272.9612 Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy 500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021 - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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