I don't normally pile one, typically I ignore the irrelevant messages.  Hell, I 
rarely even post unless I am fairly confident I have the answer to someone's 
question.  Normally I sit back, read and constantly learn from the information 
shared on this mailing list - but I have had some unrealistic expectations 
placed on me at work (my meat and potatoes job) recently which I stood up 
against (successfully) and I want to support Stewart and Glenn as they 
addressed this topic - it is an important one.

I don't know your complete situation - but I don't need to for the basic point, 
but it sounds like you had work that presented itself which you decided to go 
after thinking you could "slap" together a machine to allow you to perform the 
task and make some money.  While that is a commendable aspiration, with two 
family members who work R&D, specifically in process automation and material 
handling/quality inspection disciplines, the tool to complete the task 
typically goes through numerous simulations and revisions before it even sees 
it's first 'trial run'.  Rarely is a one-shot attempt even taken, let alone 
successful unless it's the tinyest thing.  Personally, my benchtop mill has 
been a work in progress for close to a year now (3 years if you count time 
before I spent a single penny on hardware, though medical issues have slowed my 
pace significantly), granted it's a hobbyist machine, but I do have an 
aspiration to turn it into a prototyping tool to allow some of the ideas 
rolling around in my head to actually make it into the marketplace and make me 
some profit.  Money is tight and I want the best return on my investment so 
planning and simulating have been mandatory to make sure I don't purchase items 
that won't live up to expectations.  So far everything has worked as designed 
and intended, and tuning has been the only real post implementation effort 
required.  

To bash a product outright on the mailing list is poor form - these messages 
are archived and you in turn are leaving a trail that could hurt someone else's 
livelihood.  I see many posts about the products offered by the manufacturer 
you're bashing and they are predominantly positive or kindly asking for 
assistance to implement correctly.  Maybe the item in question was ready, maybe 
it wasn't, but ultimately the choice was yours to use it.  If you wanted a plug 
and play system, it sounds like an off the shelf CNC machine would have been 
the better choice for you, but then you'd have spent a lot more and your profit 
margin would have been significantly lower, if even positive.  To aspire to 
build a machine on a short schedule and expect to immediately turn around and 
use it for a production job is admirable, and occasionally even achievable, but 
the blame lies ultimately with you - thorough planning and testing are not 
optional, especially with machinery as dangerous as what the majority of the 
list deals with.  I hope that you didn't screw over a client - not only for 
your sake, but for HIS, if you promised something based on a perceived ability 
rather than a proven one, again, that was your error.  I am sorry for your loss 
of this job, but instead of venting and slingling mud, stop, take a deep 
breath, and learn from what you've done.  Keep at the machine and I am 
confident you will have a reliable machine that will pay back your investment 
in time.  And since open source is a collaborative effort - if there really is 
a problem/lack of function with the hardware you bought - work with the 
manufacturer to help them resolve it - that's the real point I wanted to make.  
No, you won't get paid for it, but they probably will thank you on the list for 
the community to see for any real help you provide them and that is a really 
good feeling.

This is only my 2 cents, and in the current economy, that certainly isn't worth 
all that much..

To everyone else who couldn't care less - I apologize for going off topic and 
addressing etiquette, it gets mentioned from time to time, but this was a 
lengthy message so I apologize.  Every once in a while it seems like a reminder 
that friendly and positive communications are not only prefered, but certainly 
more effective.

And to round out my message on a positive note - THANK YOU TO EVERY VOLUNTEER 
WHO HAS DONATED TIME AND MONEY TO THE EMC2 PROJECT AND TO EVERY MANUFACTURER 
WHO HAS MADE AN EFFORT TO PRODUCE HARDWARE TO WORK WITH EMC2.  YOUR HARD WORK 
IS NOT UNAPPRECIATED.

<rant off>
Greg
www.distinctperspectives.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stuart Stevenson 
  To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
  Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 8:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Pissed off of <snip>


  Senor Acosta,
     I must agree with Mr. Edwards.
     La problema es suyo. Empezo un projecto sin tiempo y education.
  Ambos son muy costo.

  On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Richard Acosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  > El 09/11/08 18:55, noel escribió:
  >> Richard,
  >> I'm a happy and satisfied Mesanet customer.
  >> I use a 5i20, 7i33 and 7i37.  with the 'stock' and 'proven' EMC2
  >> configurations.
  >> I have stayed away from the 7i43 until the EMC2 driver and configurations
  >> are thoroughly worked out
  > Hi Noel, i don't doubt you're right and i think there must be some (or a
  > lot of) people using the same hardware that i'm.
  >
  > To everyone else: I asked for help here on this group and despite the
  > good will and help of the people i could'nt make it work, which has led
  > me to loose time, money and a very important work.
  > I choose EMC because of the freedom part, and 7i43 because emc2 claims
  > it work.

     I question your 'freedom' claim here. The word 'libre' is a better
  choice. I understand the choice.
     Regarding the 7i43, I have never seen any plug-n-play claims. For
  that matter, I have never seen any PNP claims connected to the EMC2
  project.

  > Then i read manuals and help wich made me think it was all working, and
  > then i decided to choose this board.
  > If at any place i would have read that the board is not working
  > completely i could have choose another option, but i didn't find it.

     Agreed, the EMC2 documentation is less than complete. I have
  commercial control documentation that is as complete as it will ever
  get. The comercial control documentation is not complete. At least the
  developers of EMC, (all volunteers) I might add, will address any and
  all concerns very rapidly. The EMC developers, again I might add (they
  are all volunteers), will work on whatever problem you present as soon
  as they can understand the problem. Try that with any of the
  commercial control developers. After you give them your credit card
  number you will receive an incident number. They will call you back in
  a little while (a day to a week) to find out a little more. Remember
  now, they have your credit card number and will charge your credit
  card for taking the time to ask you questions and provide answers to
  you. This without a guarantee of a solution. Most of the time their
  solution is 'let me send a technician to your place' (not free).

  >
  > Those who was trying to help me asked for my config files, wich i had
  > make by reading plus test and error since there is no clear sample, but
  > i can't keep losing time on investigating, i had to make this work more
  > than a couple months ago, and i lost a very important work because of
  > this, plus time, plus money.
  > I think it would be so much easier if you provide those files, or at
  > least some clear paths to use the appropriate configs.

     It is not possible to provide config files for every machine
  possibility. You must educate yourself to provide that. You can
  consider the 'losing time on investigating' is the price of your
  education and the cost of EMC2.

  >
  > I'll give it a last try, since it seems Ted Hyde has it working, and he
  > has a VIA chipset plus the same card (400k) than i.
  > Thanks everyone for your patience, but anyway think that i have lost
  > this job because the lack of clear info.
  > Again thanks.
  >
     Los siento su perdio la oportunidad.
     I hope you will continue with the EMC2 project. I would recommend
  trading the cards with Mesa. This would get you up and running much
  quicker.
     Choosing a card under development made it certain to take more time.
     The time spent learning EMC2 and the related hardware is a very
  worthwhile investment. This is where the real 'freedom' begins. As you
  learn what EMC2 can do your mind will expand with possibilities.
     EMC2 can 'rule' the world (or at least 'control' it).
  Stuart

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