On 6/29/21 4:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:
It does seem a little odd. I suspect it is aimed at some manner of
behaviour that I have not (knowingly) seen on our forums.
It is a bit of a concern to think that I could be accused of breaking
the CoC for being too helpful.
I believe the Code of Conduct was designed to protect the feelings of
people who don't know, so they ask, but are offended when someone
"mansplains" to them in a manner they perceive to be condescending.
Unfortunately, the CoC doesn't concern itself with the intent of the
person providing the answer. The person asking the question decides
whether the answer is helpful or condescending, and if the latter, the
person trying to be helpful is punished. That's no way to encourage
people to try to help others. Many of these externally applied rules of
conduct have noble intent but often produce ignoble results.
When I don't know and I ask a question, it's because I tried to find the
answer and couldn't. I'm probably approaching the problem incorrectly
and I'm hoping for a quick answer to point me in the right direction.
If someone takes the time to explain it to me in greater detail to
educate me rather than simply helping me to educate myself, I'm even
more grateful they spent their time to save my time. I try to be that
guy, who provides a more detailed explanation because more information
seems more helpful to me. It seems like a welcoming gesture to someone
new to the community. However, there are some people who want only the
answer that they want. We're expected to read their minds to ascertain
exactly what they want and provide only the information they want but
not any excess information that might imply they don't know something.
The Code of Conduct appears to force our entire community into tip
toeing through that mine field.
I get the feeling that this CoC was written for a somewhat different
demographic than LinuxCNC users tend to be. (By which I am mainly
referring to age).
I believe age is part of the demographic difference, but there is also a
difference between typical engineers who are good at technical issues
but not good at social issues. Or, as my wife tells me, it's not what
you said but how you said it. :-/
On 6/29/21 7:47 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
My only question is why in the heck is this even necessary? We're all in
this because we share the common bonds of machining, LinuxCNC, and other
related things that go along with.
Apparently, a history of peaceful coexistence is not good enough.
There's an old saying. You may not care about politics, but politics
cares about you.
There may be an online community of people who enjoy LinuxCNC, who
support each other and anyone sharing that interest is welcome, but they
cannot be allowed to restrict their conversations to the technical and
ignore someone else's political issues. All interest groups must be
expanded to include identity politics.
LinuxCNC --> LinuxCNC + politics
Flower Arranging --> Flower Arranging + politics
etc.
On 6/29/21 8:10 AM, Les Newell wrote:
I find it mildly ironic that the introduction of a code of conduct
triggered one of the few posts I've seen on this list that breaks the
code of conduct...
Ironic, yes, but probably not unintended.
Most people want self governance, but a small minority see themselves as
our rulers. They know better than we do what's best for us. It's not
good enough to have a group of technical people discussing technical
issues. We can't be allowed to ignore the important issues of our day.
We must be forced to engage in the divisive politics of race, gender,
sexual orientation, etc. For our own good. Even if it destroys the
community.
On 6/29/21 8:14 AM, fxkl47BF via Emc-users wrote:
have one or be labeled non-conformist and be boycotted
Maybe being boycotted might not be so bad if those who boycott are the
ones whose participation would consist of off-topic divisive politics. :-)
If the Powers That Be insist on a code of conduct, can't we just
formalize our unwritten code? "Everybody be cool."
On 6/29/21 12:51 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
In my view, the LinuxCNC user list has been too toxic to be involved
with for the last few years. It has been toxic long enough that the
usual suspects have grown used to their habits and don't know any
better. Fortunately for me, I have learned enough to fix whatever goes
wrong with my machines or the software, but it hurts to see this drive
away the people that have provided the foundation for this amazing
project for the last twenty years.
It's almost as if we're reading different email lists. I see the
LinuxCNC community as helpful and welcoming. On very rare occasions,
I've seen a terse reply from someone who has seen the same question
asked many times before, but it's almost always followed up with someone
patiently answering the same question again for the benefit of someone
who in all likelihood is only here to ask that one question and will
never be a contributing member of the community. The LinuxCNC community
should be proud of not only the quality of the information it provides,
but also the friendly manner in which it's provided. The rare unhelpful
responses are the exceptions that prove the rule.
On 6/29/21 10:34 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
Then what's the point of pushing a Code of Conduct which has a very
obvious
agenda on a group that for so many years has not needed anything of
the sort?
Merely discussing the new Code of Conduct, we're now seeing members
within our merry online community telling others, if the CoC offends you
then please take this as a request to leave, and our community will be
better off without you. This is the attitude that an externally imposed
politically motivated Code of Conduct fosters. Telling people with
differing views to leave because the community will be better without
you is the opposite of welcoming, inclusive, fostering diversity, etc.
From my perspective, the LinuxCNC community has been a friendly,
respectful, welcoming place. That's largely because we focused on
technical issues which are non-confrontational. Now, we're being forced
to be political, with all of the hostility that engenders. As is often
the case, these rules of conduct imposed by others purport to facilitate
social interaction but have disastrously opposite results.
On 6/29/21 2:57 PM, andy pugh wrote:
Yes, I read that, and is saddened me. But in more than just the
obvious way, because that means that some of us have been acting in a
way that upset Kirk, but if you asked us I would bet that not one of
us would think that we had.
I am not sure that a CoC is any help there, until Kirk said what he
said I had always considered this mailing list to be friendly, and
that I was already behaving according to the CoC.
I feel exactly the same way. I try to be friendly to all. Even if
someone is offended by the fact that I have different beliefs, I still
try not to antagonize them. What would be the point of that? I can't be
bullied into adopting someone else's beliefs because my beliefs offend
them, but I do try to be accepting of everyone's beliefs, and I try not
to inflict my beliefs on anyone. That's much easier to do when we're
discussing LinuxCNC. That's why I try to avoid interjecting political
commentary into technical threads. If I've offended anyone, I sincerely
apologize. That was never my intention. I hope the LinuxCNC community
can be a friendly place for anyone who wants to be here, however, there
are some people who are grievously injured by the existence of any
beliefs other than their own. Life must be a terribly uncomfortable
place for them.
LinuxCNC has been spared for years. I've seen this toxic political
divisiveness ruin other open source projects. Developers contribute
their time because they enjoy a technical challenge and they enjoy the
community of like minded individuals focused on related technical
issues. When a FOSS project becomes dominated by divisive politics, the
general consensus is, "I get enough of this garbage from the human
resources trolls at work, where I'm paid to endure it. I don't need
this and have better things to do with my free time."
This problem has now spread throughout society. My way or the highway.
Either adopt or passively endorse my political beliefs or we'll cancel
you and your entire community. Divisive and destructive vitriol is
marketed as being necessary to create a welcoming, friendly, open,
diverse, inclusive environment for all, when in fact, it's only
welcoming, friendly, open, diverse, and inclusive for the half of the
population who share the ideology endorsed by the code of conduct that
is presented as the only correct way to think and behave.
I hope LinuxCNC doesn't incorporate a politically divisive code of
conduct. If one is externally imposed, I hope we can ignore it and get
back to discussing technical issues rather than divisive identity
politics. There are plenty of other places for that political
discussion if anyone is interested.
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