On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:22:00 +0200 Martin Koelewijn <[email protected]> said:
> @raster: I'm curious about the gtkrc you made. The attachment, as usual, > failed to arrive at the mailing list. Could you paste it somewhere and > share the link? Thanks. https://phab.enlightenment.org/file/info/PHID-FILE-dpri745rnyuhghdlljdn/ > M > > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Carsten Haitzler <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:22:08 -0500 Jeff Hoogland <[email protected]> > > said: > > > > > They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E > > in > > > general. > > > > i read the thread - the reddit one, and they are. when they are specific: > > > > "Looks like a baby took a shit on your screen as you were taking > > screenshots. > > Suggestion, use less baby shit green. I hope you find this new information > > helpful." > > > > and they continue down that thread. green in the bodhi theme screenshot. > > the > > original comment from bitchessuck was ambiguous but during that thead he > > clearly seems to be talking of the bodhi theme. more comments on the bodhi > > screenshot thread: > > > > "Some things are subjective, but others aren't. Consider color schemes or > > consistency." > > > > "Yeah, but only slightly I should also mention the fonts are too large, > > and the > > icons are awful." > > > > "The icon size isn't the problem, although the size of one of the icons is > > off. > > The icons have wildly different style, the power icon is just ugly and > > badly > > drawn, and the meaning of those icons is hard to guess. Alignment is also > > a bit > > off." > > > > in fact the majority of comments on the reddit thread are clearly about the > > bodhi theme thread, with others ambiguous. > > > > the webupd8 one i quoted below - the things people specifically criticize > > OTHER > > than "it's dark and i don't like dark" (which was basically one guy) and > > "it > > doesn't look flat and modern" were about poor mismatching in the ui - the > > red > > glossy class shiny power button for example. the awful gradients in efm > > thanks > > to the different theme. > > > > i took the time out to read the entire reddit thread and webupd8 thread. > > there > > is a pattern: > > > > 1. people don't like the half-arsed themes with inconsistency. > > 2. there are a bunch of people who think it must be modern and flat or > > then it > > sucks > > 3. there are some people who don't like dark stuff > > > > there are ALSO people who indicate they LIKE the non-flat look also in > > those > > threads. there are people who indicate they LIKE the dark. some like these, > > some don't, but i saw no one champion inconsistent looks. > > > > > > > > > That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a > > "default" > > > Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes > > your > > > dark default theme. > > > > > > What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for > > > 3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so > > > saying "green is bad" is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks > > fairly > > > similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how > > E > > > looks/functions are happy with. > > > > didn't i repeat it often enough below? > > > > PEOPLE JUDGE YOU ON YOUR SCREENSHOTS. > > > > they don't see the other colors - they see the one image on that blog post > > and > > then make their decision. it's not a copy out. you asked what all that > > response > > is about - it is about the screenshot on your blog. webup8 is about the > > set of > > screenshots in the article above. > > > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler <[email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland > > <[email protected]> > > > > said: > > > > > > > > i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so > > > > far. > > > > before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are > > not > > > > subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of > > the > > > > audience. > > > > > > > > now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi > > > > linux > > > > theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color > > > > selection > > > > for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme > > > > isn't an > > > > accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly > > > > it's > > > > glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they > > like > > > > dark > > > > themes. also it's "different" and thus makes e stand out. if e blends > > in > > > > and is > > > > just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have > > > > much > > > > less to offer. > > > > > > > > now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some > > contrast and > > > > difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue > > is > > > > NOT > > > > an accident: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor > > > > http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html > > > > http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/ > > > > > > > > > > http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/ > > > > http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/ > > > > http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/ > > > > > > http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/ > > > > > > > > (i can continue finding references). > > > > > > > > notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in > > > > preferences > > > > of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power > > and > > > > authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and > > > > tranquility > > > > and can improve productivity. > > > > > > > > these choices are far from being an accident. also dark colors use less > > > > power > > > > on oled panels. :) > > > > > > > > now for being different. attracting attention. standing out. if we > > looked > > > > the > > > > same, we'd blend in and then you find it hard to get people to switch. > > > > "you're > > > > just the same!". they look at screenshots. they dont spend the time to > > use > > > > and > > > > get to know e. they make their decisions on pretty pictures. > > > > > > > > so the bodhi color choice i would say goes contrary to what is popular > > and > > > > is > > > > "acceptable" for people. sure - the green stands out, but people don't > > > > really > > > > like green for their ui. looking at the theme, it looks almost EXACTLY > > > > like a > > > > green version of ubuntu. i look at it and go "ewww. uglier ubuntu.". it > > > > has no > > > > character. it has no soul. it has no identity of its own. it's a copy > > of an > > > > existing ui just with worse colors and less polish. you want specific > > > > feedback, > > > > and this is it. at least from me. read up on color psychology and > > > > popularity > > > > and then make a good choice. :) > > > > > > > > the next problem is the ubuntu copy look. it just looks bad. it may > > blend > > > > well > > > > with ubuntus mods to gtk so it fits, but then it provides no individual > > > > character of its own. e then is just a poor copy of unity in ubuntu. > > > > > > > > for e's default theme i chose the colors, then another concept - > > > > squareness. i > > > > made my gtk match - see attached gtkrc. at least color-wise it doesn't > > > > stand out > > > > glaringly like a sore thumb, but there is a limit to how well they can > > > > match. > > > > back to the default. yes - i chose bevels with shadows and some > > gradients. > > > > yes > > > > it's "old fashioned". the bitchers you see want something that looks > > just > > > > like > > > > the flat design in the new osx or what google puts on their pages. they > > > > want it > > > > because they love following fashion. in a few years fashion will change > > > > again. > > > > i, for one, am not the kind of person who reads the fashion mags and > > buys > > > > a new > > > > pare of pants, shoes etc. just because it's "the in thing this > > season", but > > > > reality is a lot of people are just that and they will rain insults > > down > > > > on you > > > > unless what you provide matches THEIR exact perceived idea of what is > > > > "cool" > > > > today. i chose the bevels and shadows because there is a lot of ui > > > > precedent > > > > that these are important. they indicate to a user that it is a BUTTON > > to be > > > > CLICKED, as opposed to just some flat rectangle with some text in it. > > > > people > > > > have no idea that they can CLICK that. to them it is a passive label. i > > > > stopped > > > > listening to fashion followers long ago, because all you end up with > > is a > > > > continual chasing of the latest trend. reality is that everyone has > > > > different > > > > tastes and THAT is what themes are for. we don't really have the > > manpower > > > > to do > > > > more than a single well polished theme. we just don't have artists. > > even > > > > the > > > > default theme is lacking. it lacks many icons it should have. the icons > > > > should > > > > be consistent and match the theme, but there just hasn't been time to > > work > > > > on > > > > it all. likely there never will be. > > > > > > > > yes - the icons in the default theme need work. now for the bodhi > > theme. > > > > take a > > > > look at the icons in your screenshot, the "i" icon in the about windows > > > > has a > > > > pure green that kind of clashes with the green int he background. some > > > > icons - > > > > like the about theme one, come from tango. the epad icon looks starkly > > > > different to the pkgkit shield icon to its right. icons should follow > > the > > > > same > > > > style, same look, same lighting and choose colors that don't clash or > > look > > > > garish. again - this is something an artist understands it's the words > > to > > > > be > > > > given to those that do the artwork. > > > > > > > > if you follow that reddit thread talking of webupd8 all the negative > > > > comments > > > > are pretty much a "you're not being fashionable!". but then again... > > > > several of > > > > the comments are pointing out bodhi mods - like the big red shiny power > > > > button > > > > that is basically an early-osx style glassy shine slapped into a ui > > that > > > > is grey > > > > and matte. it just doesn't fit. draw an icon that fits - either an > > inset > > > > grey > > > > power icon or maybe a blue glowing one, but something that matches the > > > > scheme. > > > > the button doesn't match at all. it's out of place. that red power > > button > > > > may > > > > be a module you can remove.. but people JUDGE on screenshots - as > > above. > > > > you > > > > want screenshots to look clean and consistent REGARDLESS of style. yes > > e's > > > > default style has bevels and 3d - but given the comments people > > actually > > > > don't > > > > mind that a lot of the time. it's when you go overboard with shiny > > glassy > > > > effects that then don't fit, that people start to mock. and they are > > > > right. it > > > > looks amateurish. if you have a style, define it and stick to it - > > > > everywhere. > > > > again other complaints about "the horrible gradient in the fm > > sidebar"... > > > > that > > > > is a mode from bodhi changing the default. yes - the default could do > > with > > > > more > > > > polish - especially icons, BUT the ad-hoc mods that just don't fit in > > > > stand out > > > > and look bad. a lot of comments are personal, color preference "lighter > > > > please" (and you get the revers if you are light). this is something i > > > > wanted > > > > to do eventually - generate a mid grey and light version of the default > > > > theme > > > > from the original, BUT i just haven't gotten to it and i'd want to > > polish > > > > it up > > > > more. i only made colorclasses work again recently. simotek has been > > > > working on > > > > his scripts and tools to generate new colors versions of the default > > and > > > > that > > > > is good. they at least look consistent and polished. > > > > > > > > also there needs to be control. edje files are insanely complex. they > > can > > > > do a > > > > hell of a lot. a lot of the design is in restricting what you do. > > keeping > > > > to a > > > > simple and consistent subset of colors, shapes and concepts. bad themes > > > > just > > > > turn on everything including the kitchen sink. > > > > > > > > also another note. all the HAPPY users go away and be happy. they stay > > > > quiet. > > > > you hear the noise of the UNHAPPY ones, so it always looks out of > > > > proportion. > > > > there is also always a large set of noisy trolls that love to beat > > down on > > > > anything but their favorite chosen thing. > > > > > > > > summary - don't do half-arsed themes. do a full completely done and > > > > consistent > > > > theme that pays attention to color phsychology. don't mix and match > > styles > > > > and > > > > components. so dot your i's, cross your t's. make your screenshots LOOK > > > > GOOD. > > > > people will judge you on them. most will. choose conservative colors in > > > > general > > > > and make sure everything is polished and consistent. that is what lends > > > > quality > > > > to something. > > > > > > > > yes the config dialogs are a mess. it's 10 years of config option > > addition > > > > one > > > > after another. it needs a re-do, but the time just hasn't been there as > > > > other > > > > things are more important to where the resources come from (EFL itself, > > > > wayland > > > > etc.). if i had the time, i'd have redone all the icons by now and > > have a > > > > decent icon theme that ships with e that has 100's of the icons needed > > to > > > > cover > > > > most apps. but i don't. :( > > > > > > > > does this help? > > > > > > > > > Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. > > Thoughts on > > > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > Recent example -> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ~Jeff Hoogland <http://jeffhoogland.com/> > > > > > Thoughts on Technology <http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/>, Tech > > Blog > > > > > Bodhi Linux <http://bodhilinux.com/>, Enlightenment for your Desktop > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk > > Solutions > > > > > Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems > > > > > Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data. > > > > > Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration > > > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > enlightenment-users mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > -------------- > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ~Jeff Hoogland <http://jeffhoogland.com/> > > > Thoughts on Technology <http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/>, Tech Blog > > > Bodhi Linux <http://bodhilinux.com/>, Enlightenment for your Desktop > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions > > > Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems > > > Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data. > > > Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems > > > _______________________________________________ > > > enlightenment-users mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [email protected] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions > > Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems > > Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data. > > Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-users mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions > Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems > Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data. > Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration > http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-users mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data. Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems _______________________________________________ enlightenment-users mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
