Don, We think way too much alike. If we ever meet face to face, I'd like to discuss the Shigocracy of symplastlessness over a cool brew... or two... better yet, after we have too many, late into the night, let's drag some potentially alien contaminated/infested urban logs into some old growth forests to help improve it's CWD...
PJ On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:05 PM, DON BERTOLETTE <[email protected]>wrote: > Steve- > If you'll permit me to answer a question with a question, I'd ask you to > define "symplastless"? > -Don > > ------------------------------ > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Even if you think it is a hoax > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:11:11 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > Don, > > > > Now you know that we are not afraid to be prodding around inside worm cans > (J)! Again, to what are some of the specifics to the “Shigo Doctrine” do > you refer? > > CODIT? Lateral pruning? > > > > Steve > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On > Behalf Of *DON BERTOLETTE > *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2009 6:07 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [ENTS] Re: Even if you think it is a hoax > > > > Steve/Chris- > Hmmmm, 'can of worms' time...:>} > A while back, one of our forum members held wholly to the 'Shigo > Doctrine'...to the exclusion of any other views...if you fully subscribe to > all that Shigo professed, then I would have to indicate that I am one of the > many who remain somewhat skeptical of some of his pronouncements. He was > controversial in his time, and time hasn't really changed much in the > retrospective view of his hypotheses, theories. > But you know what, on a more personal basis, in my pursuit of a wide > variety of scientific disciplines, I have encountered jargon/terminology > specific to each discipline, but never with the verve and audacity of > Shigo...if either of you could 'translate' Shigo's views into a language I > might understand, I'd be sure to listen to you...I scored very well on the > MLATs (Modern Language Aptitude Test, I think), but he's Greek to me! > -Don > ------------------------------ > > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Even if you think it is a hoax > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:40:18 -0400 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > I too am curious especially since I'm an ISA Certified Arborist and also > met Dr. Shigo at one of his last workshops before he passed away. > > > > I don't think you could find another person who has had more influence on > Arboriculture than Alex Shigo. > > > > Chris Girard - CTSP > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]*on > Behalf Of *Steven Springer > *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2009 9:50 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [ENTS] Re: Even if you think it is a hoax > > Don, > > > > *IM ALL FOR THATI HOPE YOU ARENT ONE OF THOSE ARBORISTS THAT SUBSCRIBES > WHOLLY TO THE SHIGO DOCTRINE;>}* > > > > My curiosity is peaked, to what portion of the Shigo Doctrine do you refer? > I am convinced of the Compartmentalization of Decay in Trees (CODIT) and the > lateral pruning methods are sound. > > * * > > Steve > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of DON BERTOLETTE > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 3:11 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Even if you think it is a hoax > > > > Steve....I'm responding in SMALL CAPS IN THE BODY OF YOUR TEXT BELOW... > > All, > > My objective(s) in raising this issue of Global Warming before this board > was to (1) recognize that the perceived consensus promoted is not as wide > spread as perhaps thought; WIDESPREAD ENOUGH THAT I FEEL THAT THE > PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE SHOULD BE APPLIED TO YOUR ASSERTION THAT IT ISNT, > AND THAT STEPS SHOULD BE TAKEN TO DIMINISH OUR IMPACT ON THE EARTHS > ATMOSPHERE, WATERS, AND TERRAIN UNTIL WE CAN CONCLUSIVELY DETERMINE > OTHERWISE... (2) the reliable data (that which has not to have been shown > faulty) is not as conclusive to an applicable world-wide crisis WHILE I > HAVE PROVIDED A NUMBER OF LOCAL AND REGIONAL LOCATIONS THAT SUPPORT THE > DATA, FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, THE LIST OF OTHER ANECDOTAL ACCOUNTS > IN ACADEMIC PERIODICALS (READ CURRENT REPUTABLE, REPLICABLE SCIENTIFIC > SOURCES) IS SO WIDE SPREAD (READ GLOBAL) AS TO BE ACCEPTED AS CONCLUSIVE > ENOUGH, NOT TO CONTINUE WITH A MAINTAIN STATUS QUOAND DONT BOTHER CHANGING > OUR ILL-ADVISED, ENVIRONMENT DESPOILING WAYS.. > > > > My experience regarding this consensus gathering has been limited to those > boots on the ground colleagues in the Forest Service, at the Federal and > State level (remain un-named to protect the innocent!). STEVE, I STARTED > WORKING FOR FEDERAL AGENCIES (BLM IN 1967; USFS IN 1969, NPS IN 1998)AND ITS > NOT BEEN SINCE 2002 THAT MY BOOTS (WHITES LOGGERS, FOR THE RECORD) DIDNT > HIT THE GROUND EVERY DAY. I HAVE BEEN ALTERNATELY A LAND SURVEYOR, A ROAD > DESIGNER, A TIMBER MARKER, A GIS TECHNICIAN, AND FINALLY A RESTORATION > FORESTER. If one chooses to research this issue deeper, there are many in > the scientific field at a world-wide scale that are very skeptical and will > not mince words in calling those who are convinced as fools! IVE HEARD THIS > SAID, BUT I CANT IMAGINE THE STATE OF DENIAL THAT THEY MUST BE INIT IS WISE > FOR SCIENTIST TO BE SKEPTICAL, INDEED IT IS THE BASIS OF THE SCIENTIFIC > METHOD TO QUESTION ASSUMPTIONSBUT THE STATE OF DENIAL THAT COMES TO MY MIND > THAT REPUTABLE SCIENTISTS WOULD REFER TO THOSE WILLING TO ACCEPT THE > PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF MANS AUGMENTATION TO THE CAUSES OF > THE GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE CURRENTLY UNDERWAY, BEFUDDLES ME. It is common > to be of the opinion that only the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannitys promote > this skepticism, this is erroneous. UNFORTUNATELY THEY ARE NOT A SMALL > SOURCE OF THIS SKEPTICISM I suppose that if a true consensus was conducted > among us world-wide, the split would lean more toward the skeptic rather > than the convinced WE REALLY DIFFER IN OUR PERCEPTION OF THE WORLD HERE!!!; > or at best only half NOT EVEN CLOSE, PROVIDE YOUR FIGURES. Does this make > morons of one side? NO, I AGREE THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A MORON TO BE IN > DENIALNo, this reveals an effective argument for conclusion has not been > made. NOT TRUE, AN REPUATABLE AND REPLICABLE ARGUMENT HAS BEEN MADEITS JUST > THAT APPARENTLY THE OVERWHELMING SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS HASNT BEEN EFFECTIVE > WITH YOU, AND OTHER INTRANSIGENT SKEPTICS So, why arent more speaking freely > regarding their opposition? It is recognized as politically correct and > job-safe to remain silent or non-committal. THROUGHOUT MY UNHERALDED > CAREERS, I FUNCTIONED AS AN AGENT OF CHANGE, DIDNT REMAIN SILENT, AND NO ONE > WHO KNOWS ME WOULD ACCUSE ME OF BEING NON-COMMITALIM NOT TAKING THIS > PERSONALLY, MERELY REBUTTING YOUR ASSUMPTION. AS IM SURE, MANY ON THIS > FORUM WOULD, WERE THEY NOT AS OUTSPOKEN AS I;>} > > Much of the data (not all) presented has been refuted or shown to be > flawed (the hockey-stick analogy for instance). We all recognize that > conflicting data or that which reveals itself to be inclusive, causes us to > fail to reject the null in statistical probability. While many have done > well, detailed work concerning climate change and its cause and effect, > there still is not enough evidence to reach a sound conclusion regarding a > world-wide crisis. This fact is evident even in some of the responses given > on this post. STEVE, YOU STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO THE LEE FRELICHS > COMMENTTHIS ENTIRE PARAGRAPH PROVES YOUR UNWILLINGNESS TO CONSIDER > INFORMATION NEW TO YOU, INFORMATION THAT ISNT FLAWED, INFORMATION THAT ISNT > CONFLICTING, AND NOT DOUBLE NEGATIVE GOBBLEDY GOOK ABOUT STATISTICAL > PROBABILITY. YOUVE OTHERWISE SHOWN SIGNS OF INTELLIGENCE, FLAWED ONLY BY > YOUR RELUCTANCE TO CONSIDER ALTERNATIVES. > > So what is going on? Well, I do not have all the answers. I can only > critically examine that which is around me and the works of others then make > my surmising, like you. The reliable and conclusive data that we have to > this point reveals a sometimes volatile, variable and inconsistent patterned > planet. At a micro level we can sometimes establish caused weather > patterns, other times we cannot. At a macro level, this is an ardent > undertaking, which may be above the ability of mortal man. There is much > that we will probably never understand about our natural world. Perhaps, we > should consider that the world changes naturally (coastlines, Greenland, et. > al.) and without recognizable patterns and we are unable to understand or > explain. Is the United States in the early stages of a collective micro > climate change? Perhaps, is it because of our doing or could it be part of > an unexplainable natural process? We may never have the answer. > > READ LEE FRELICHS POST, AND WE CAN CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSIONOTHERWISE WELL > HAVE TO AGREE THAT YOURE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DISAGREETHAT SAID, I AGREE, > LETS TALK TREES, AS IVE SAID ALL IM GOING TO SAY, UNLESS ITS TO DISCUSS THE > FRELICH POST > > One of the main tenants of Global Warming is that man; particularly those > citizens of industrialized nations are to blame. It is true that we can > degrade our local environment, contribute a non-point pollutant for our > neighbors, or even manipulate weather patterns to a small extent, at a micro > level. But to make the assumption that the way it is in my backyard is > conducive to the whole world is a bit unfounded and illogical. This one > tenant in this issue perhaps draws the deepest battle lines. > > With all this said, I respectfully stand beside my arguments as > presented. As one who may appear to you as crying from the wilderness > regarding this issue, I am not beside myself among those in our field. > > I am new to this website and have come to enjoy it! Now, we can move on to > talk about the trees (large, champions) rather than the forest! AS IVE > STATED ABOVE, IM ALL FOR THATI HOPE YOU ARENT ONE OF THOSE ARBORISTS THAT > SUBSCRIBES WHOLLY TO THE SHIGO DOCTRINE;>} > > I'D ALSO LIKE TO ADD THAT YOU'VE ACQUITTED YOURSELF WELL, SPOKEN > RESPECTFULLY ABOUT TOPICS THAT AREN'T ALWAYS UNIVERSALLY AGREED UPON, AND WE > APPRECIATE YOUR FORUM PRESENCE. > > > > SINCERELY, > > DON > > Respectfully > > Steve > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Windows Live: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. < > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009> > > > > > > <BR > > > ------------------------------ > > Rediscover Hotmail®: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. Check > it > out.<http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Updates1_042009> > > > > > ------------------------------ > Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry Check it > out.<http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile1_042009> > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
