Bob,

Thanks for your accounts of the high-volume trees of the past and the
exceptional volume forests of the present.

I do concede that the most valuable forests from a timber perspective
are probably old second-growth stands, on the order of 120-180 years
depending on species composition, like the ones you describe so well
with numbers and prose from western MA.

Josh



On May 3, 8:12 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Josh,
>
>       In doing research for the book that Will Blozan, jack Sobon and I wrote 
> entitled 'Stalking the Forest Monarchs' I came across an account of a giant 
> tuliptree near what is now Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest that yielded 20,163 
> board feet at the mill. That is the highest one tree figure I've seen. I have 
> no idea how accurate the figure is . I think a giant tuliptree in the Smokies 
> yielded 18,000 board feet, if I remember correctly. I believe they have a 
> photo of it at the Oconoluftee Visitor's Center. Of course, these trees were 
> the statistical outliers, but they illustrate what was there at least to an 
> extent in those early forests. Th e giant trees could have been half rotten 
> and still yiel ded several thousands of board feet per tree.
>
>     Although it is mature second growth instead of old growth, t here are a 
> number of acres of Mohawk Trail State Forest here in western Mass with over 
> 100,000 board feet per acre. If that sounds unreasonably high, w e're 
> talking about a place that has 86 white pines over 150 feet in height and 
> well over 200 over 140. M ost are in pri me condition. The majority of canopy 
> pines have DBHs ranging from    25 to 40 inches, w ith a not insignificant 
> number of trees with DBHs of 41 to 43 inches . At least  17 have DBHs of 44 
> inches or more with the top now at about 48. The average density of mature 
> pines in Mohawk is around 75 trees per acre and in some places the number  is 
> higher than that. There are at least 3 acres that I've identified with basal 
> areas of over 300 square feet per acre. Again, this is mature second growth. 
> In today's short rotation mentality, there is no way such standing volume 
> would survive without a lot of protection. People forget what the land can 
> produce in a period of about 130 years if left alone or managed carefully.
>
>      In terms of bonafide old growth, when it was in prime condition, Hearts 
> Content in PA was described as having well over 100,000 board feet per acre. 
> A small area had close to 200,000 . I don't know if that was standing volume 
> or projected mill volume. I suspect the former.  Regardless, m odern day 
> lumbermen mostly fiddle around with matchsticks.  They have no clue.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Josh Kelly" <[email protected]>
> To: "ENTSTrees" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2009 2:25:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Kalanu Prong, Greenbrier, TN GRSM 4-21-2009
>
> Will and Steve,
>
> I've got to disagree with you about the extent, quality and
> merchantibility of Southern Appalachian forests pre-commercial
> logging.  The map from the 1905 Report to the President by Rhoades and
> Ashe shows approximately 20% of the Southern Blue Ridge in primary
> forest condition with extensive areas of inventoried old-growth in
> coves estimated to cut over 25,000 board feet to the acre.  Anomolous
> areas, like Cataloochee Valley, NC and Shady Valley TN were documented
> as having groves of standing timber averaging over 100,000 board feet/
> acre.  I have a copy of the 1905 map that can be burnt to a CD, or
> better yet, posted on the ENTS website.
>
> The most productive areas of forest were logged and converted to
> agriculture long before 1905.  I think that pre-European settlement,
> the Southern Blue Ridge was 80% forested (minimum), with at least 3/4
> of that meeting contemporary concepts of old-growth.  Those numbers
> are based on a maximum carrying capacity of 200,000 stone-age amerinds
> in the 10 million acre area, assuming the 20,000 residual amerinds in
> 1837 represented a 90% population reduction due to diseases and
> warfare.  I acknowledge that my estimates are conjecture and I stand
> by them as about as accurate as anyone else could come up with.
> Today, the Southern Blue Ridge is 75% forested with about 3% of the
> area meeting an inclusive definition of old-growth, and most of the
> remaining old-growth on low productivity sites.  The population of the
> Southern Blue Ridge today is nearing 2 million, with 1.1 million in
> western NC alone.
>
> Joe,
>
> 1,000 years ago was apparently near the dawn of agriculture in the
> Southern Blue Ridge, and so the forest cover then would have likely
> been even greater and more impressive than in 1492
>
> A final thought: with trees like the Trail's End Poplar scaling 2,200
> cubic feet of wood, a solid tree of similar dimensions could easily
> have sawn 12,000 board feet, even with the realitively wide kerfs of
> the early 20th century.  I have seen whole coves of trees in the
> Smokies and Unicois where almost every tree would saw more than 2
> thousand board feet.  Kalanu Prong is an exceptional site by today's
> standards, but 1,000 years ago, there were many coves with similar
> elevation that had not yet been ravaged by civilization.
>
> Josh
>
> On May 3, 8:28 am, "Will Blozan" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Steve,
>
> > In general, you may be correct. However, there are many, many fine examples
> > of oak and tuliptree that predate the chestnut blight by centuries. Based on
> > current day surrogates in the southern Appalachians (all I am speaking for)
> > I would figure high quality tuliptree was probably not too hard to find and
> > oak a bit more challenging. Of course, all depends on your definition of
> > high quality. I bet much of the first cut in the mountains was wasted
> > "junk". Hollow trunks, curved boles, short trunks, heavy limbs, etc. I often
> > look over an old-growth forest cove and think there is virtually nothing
> > merchantable (as in sawn timber) in it. How did anyone make money?
>
> > Will F. Blozan
>
> > President, Eastern Native Tree Society
>
> > President, Appalachian Arborists, Inc.
>
> >   _____  
>
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Steven Springer
> > Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 8:09 AM
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Kalanu Prong, Greenbrier, TN GRSM 4-21-2009
>
> > My hunch is that we would be impressed with the specimen American chestnuts
> > and be hardpressed to find a quality oak or yellow-poplar in the Appalachian
> > mountain range (American chestnut being the dominant hardwood before the
> > blight).
>
> > (What do you think regarding dominant hardwoods through the Appalachian
> > range, Will?)
>
> > Steve Springer
>
> >   _____  
>
> > From: [email protected] on behalf of Will Blozan
> > Sent: Sun 5/3/2009 6:30 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Kalanu Prong, Greenbrier, TN GRSM 4-21-2009
>
> > Steve,
>
> > How is your last sentence supposed to read?
>
> > Will F. Blozan
>
> > President, Eastern Native Tree Society
>
> > President, Appalachian Arborists, Inc.
>
> >   _____  
>
> > My hunch is that we would be impressed with the specimen American chestnut
> > trees and be hardpressed to find a quality oak yellow-poplar in the
> > Appalachians mountain range.
>
> > Steve Springer
>
> >   _____  
>
> > From: [email protected] on behalf of Joseph Zorzin
> > Sent: Sat 5/2/2009 8:21 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Kalanu Prong, Greenbrier, TN GRSM 4-21-2009
>
> > Question for Bob and Will and the others. Roughly speaking, what percentage
> > of the forests of the East - if we could go back a millennium- would appear
> > to us as "old growth"??
>
> > Of course there have always been fires, storms, clearings for villages, etc.
> > I'm just trying to get a sense- if we could go back and wander around the
> > forests- would they be filled with gigantic trees, thus looking very
> > different from now, or not?
>
> > Joe
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > From: [email protected]
>
> > To: [email protected]
>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 9:11 AM
>
> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Kalanu Prong, Greenbrier, TN GRSM 4-21-2009
>
> > Will,
>
> >    A phenomenal report as usual. It would be great to have a list of all the
> > 20-foot circumference trees in the Smokies. Information in email
> > communications becomes too scattered. Anyway, thanks for the great reports.
>
> > Bob- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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