Steve- Yes, I understood Bob's statement as he subsequently restated it. By the way, it's been a principle of mine to never question another's faith. If I have done so with you (as you state below), then it was purely unintentional.
Another principle, almost as primary to my character (and yours, if I'm judging you correctly, is to always, though not necessarily overtly, question information sources. In this case (31,000 scientists...), it was Lee, then Neil who overtly questioned that source, and it appears to me that the '31,000 claims...' were for the most part spurious, and designed to be obfuscating (hmmm, don't get to type that word much...;>) All that said, I am looking forward to further discussions of anything trees, and other strange and wonderful things of the world...and am I only one who hadn't until recently read "1421", the recounting of Chinese discovery of most of the world's continents in the 1420s? -Don Subject: [ENTS] Re: Back to Steve Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:26:41 -0500 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Bob, I understand where you are coming from. However, if you remember the discussion between Don and me regarding this topic, he asked me if I held my convictions regarding this issue to faith. I responded that in light of much contradictory and misleading information which has been sited as proof-text for this theory, a “blind faith” is more appropriate regarding its acceptance rather than its refutation. With this in mind, when you noted the acknowledgement of faith regarding this topic, it caught my attention. I just wonder if it caught Don’s as well. Steve Springer From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:18 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [ENTS] Back to Steve Steve, Just reflecting a reality. With so much data and so much analysis to wade through on climate change, we all rely on the work of others and their objectivity and competence. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Springer" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 10:51:17 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [ENTS] Re: High elevation forest response to climate change and other factors I acknowledge an element of faith here. Not too scientific. Hmm...interesting. Steve Springer From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 9:39 AM To: ENTS Subject: [ENTS] Re: High elevation forest response to climate change and other factors Mike, I can't, but I believe the broad coalition of scientists who work on the problem have. I acknowledge an element of faith here. Not too scientific. More later. Bob Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2009, at 5:22 AM, "Mike Leonard" <[email protected]> wrote: Bob, Again the question is can you correlate the tree ring data with increased CO2 emissions while filtering out the impacts of El Nino, sunspot activity, etc? Mike -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 7:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [ENTS] Re: High elevation forest response to climate change and other factors Don, Mike, Our own Dr. David Stahle, Lord of the Rings, has confirmed many instances of climate impact observable in the tree rings. His work studying the El Nino oscillation cycle has been well received within the scientific community. Dave will be one of the presenters at the Forest Summit - Old Growth conference in October at Holyoke Community College. Drs. Lee Frelich, David Foster, Don Bragg will also present. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "DON BERTOLETTE" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 10:49:52 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [ENTS] Re: High elevation forest response to climate change and other factors Mike- I don't pretend to know much about NIPF in Massachusetts. I don't think you have ever read me saying the phrase global warming. I know that to be a loaded concept that hasn't been universally accepted. But I do believe that the regions I've worked and lived in are experiencing climate change outside of the natural range of climate variation. Yes, actually there is tree ring documentation to that effect. Dendrochronology started with a man named Douglas at the Flagstaff Observatory (the one that discovered "canals" on Mars), and was furthered in partnership with early archeologist Emil Haury when they discovered missing tree ring segments in Anastazi roofing timbers...there are some really intereseting regional climate graphs that have been derived from dendrochronological research carried on at the University of Arizona at their Tree Ring Lab ('google' Tom Swetnum for a broad coverage of just about everything I've said). I do however have a fair handle on forestry in the Southwest US. I can send you any number of supporting documents regarding my statements below. I stand behind my statement that all five of those points are inter-related, not separated as they were in your reply. Deconstruction doesn't work that way. Regarding your comments on bio-fuels, you may be surprised that I've supported it, particularly in the Southwest, and with smaller more efficient operations. For much of the ponderosa pine forests, conditions (4 of 5 points below) have led to abundant smallwood that despite multiple efforts, no commercial operations can handle. More acres of controlled burning occur than should (difficult not to exceed air quality regulations), and running it as bio-fuel through an efficient energy generation plant was a solution being sought in Northern Arizona. Finding the balance between constant, consistent, regular source in the amounts appropriate for the energy generated was the key, that and being located centrally to the source. The small wood fuels are abundant and burgeoning. -Don From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [ENTS] Re: High elevation forest response to climate change and other factors Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:41:24 -0400 Don, How do you know that the current drought in the west is the worst since 600 AD? Tree ring data? I would say that unnatural fire suppression has led to invading white fir regeneration and above normal ponderosa pine regeneration as well as much of the bark beetle outbreaks. Blaming it all on global warming is bunk. Mike -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of DON BERTOLETTE Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 4:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [ENTS] RE: High elevation forest response to climate change and other factors Lee- Yes, these instances are almost always not a single cause issue...in the case of higher than normal mortality of old-growth ponderosa pine forests on the North Rim at Grand Canyon, it was a combination of: 1) altered natural fire regime, 2) invading white fir regeneration, competing with 3) above normal ponderosa pine regeneration, 4) 15 years of drought (not seen this long or serious since 600 AD), 4) causing moisture/nutrient stress on large old ponderosa pines. Here in Alaska, I was around when spruce bark beetle began a run that seemed stoppable at first, but in retrospect, could have only been stopped by a succession of two or three cold winters...we never got them and some 90% of Kenai Peninsula spruce (and significant interior populations) were wiped out. I have had several conversations with Southwestern academics who are beginning to sense the migration of species to more appropriate latitudes, elevations. It's apparent that just a few degrees annual change in temperature has a surprisingly significant effect on a whole array of ecosystem constituents. -Don > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 07:53:56 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [ENTS] Re: ENTS in the news > > > Bob, Don: > > Whitebark pine forests/woodlands are having a set complex set of > problems. White pine blister rust (an exotic disease), mountain pine > beetle (a native beetle that is in outbreak phase in many forests), and > changing climate all at once. This is affecting the relationship between > white bark pine and lodegepole pine as well, perhaps the beetle, blister > rust and droughts are helping the lodgepole to move into whitebark's > territory, while lower down the beetle is causing major mortality in > lodgepole and ponderosa pines. I am on the committees of three graduate > students who are studying whitebark pine and other high elevation > forests in the Rocky Mountains, and two of them will finish soon, so you > will see several papers on this topic be published in the next couple of > years. > > Lee > > > [email protected] wrote: > > > > Don, > > > > > > > > As best as I remember from my travels last summer to Idaho, the > > white bark pine was having problems in parts of Wyoming. But, I mostly > > saw lodgepole pine and wasn't always conscious when there was a mix of > > the two species. > > > > I'll get up to altitudes of 11,000 to almost 11,500 feet going > > across some of the Colorado passes. In southern Colorado, the > > timberline is between 11,500 and 12,000 feet. So, I should see plenty > > of high elevation forests and will dutifully report on what I see. I > > remember from 3 years ago going across Wolf Creek Pass in the San > > Juans seeing lots of beetle damage to ponderosa pines. Pines I had > > seen in the mid-1980s were dead. It was a sad sight. > > > > BTW, I'll be tracking my emails on the trip with my IPhone. I broke > > down and bought one, and so far, I love it. Apple has really thought > > through the features. Most are intuitive and even though the monitor > > is small, I can still see it. You can expand the print in a simple way. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "DON BERTOLETTE" <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:06:02 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > > Subject: [ENTS] Re: ENTS in the news > > > > Bob- > > In the west in general and surely in Colorado, the media I attend to > > describes the plight of the high elevation forests, particularly the > > pines, in (what our fellow forum member Steve Springer denies) at > > least a severe prolonged drought, and perhaps one of the signs of > > global climate change. Gradient analysis may not benefit much of the > > eastern forest, but for the western forests where a watershed may > > contain an entire elevational gradient, forests are differentially > > subject to moisture stress, and are showing higher mortality than > > would be found in the natural range of variation. > > If your travels take you into the higher elevations where whitebark > > pines are found, I'd be interested in a first hand account of their > > general health. The high elevation pines I've followed in the high > > Sierras (foxtail, bristlecone, whitebark, sugar, western white) are > > taking a hit, with potential catastrophy waiting with each monsoonal > > wave of lightning storms, due to increased downed and coarse woody debris. > > > > In two weeks, I'll be assisting a friend in nominating a Kenai Birch > > for the Alaska Register, and since the National Register doesn't list > > one, perhaps we'll be nominating a National champion! > > -Don > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:38:23 +0000 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [ENTS] Re: ENTS in the news > > > > Don, > > > > The day will come when AFs will be lauding the Pennsylvania and > > Alaska champion tree programs - and for good reason. Well, tomorrow, > > it is off to Colorado Monica and I go. I hope to report from the field > > as I go. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "DON BERTOLETTE" <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:05:04 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > > Subject: [ENTS] ENTS in the news > > > > Fellow ENTS- > > Just received the current American Forests, and saving the best for > > last, they had a great article applauding Bob Van Pelt's (and ours > > too!) obsession with champion trees...it's a good read! > > -Don > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. > > Check it out. > > <http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. > > <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009> > > > > > > > > > > > </html Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Get it on your BlackBerry or iPhone. _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
