Don,
I wasn't thinking of height, just radial growth. Are there any patterns that dendro scientists are observing? Neil Pederson did a study a few years ago of northern red oak growing patterns. He came to some interesting conclusions. maybe he'll share them with is. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Bertolette" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:53:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip Bob- It's generally accepted that dbh/cbh/age corelation with height is widely variable...dendrochronology can tell you when a tree is released, eg landowner has a patch cut done nearby, permitting more light, which shows up in the ring widths/patterns, but not necessarily in heights... Don Sent from Don's iPhone 3GS... On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:27 AM, [email protected] wrote: Beth, Agency-promoted champion tree lists on ourother discussion on what big trees of the past could achieve in the way of height and girth. What sources can we trust? Many of the champion tree lists and references to them contain mis-measured trees. Separating fact from fiction using those lists as clues to maximums is a nearly impossible task for us. But since these lists include contributions from many people with credentials, we can never know which accounts, past or present, are truly credible. In the case of historical references, some of us are inclined to give the original sources the benefit of the doubt. Others of us stand staunchly against trusting any of the accounts regardless of the source. I'm one of those who can't quite make up his mind. I've been mentally stacking up the pro and con arguments. Lee's recent comments are very interesting about trees growing faster today. I have no idea about how we could go about analyzing height growth of the past, but from growth ring analysis, I'd think a lot could be done. The dendro scientists see growth patterns from trees in the East that are 200 to 600 years old. They also see patterns from young trees. What can they tell us? Neil? How fast are trees growing today compared to past years during early and later years? This brings me to a line of questioning. What does it take in the way of annual growth for a white pine to get up to say 220 feet? Could we develop theoretical growth models and gain insights from them? As a starter, I've attached a simple spreadsheet that allows the user to enter a series of annual growth rates in feet in Column A. In column B the user enters the number of years the tree maintains each growth rate. The spreadsheet does the rest. I've protected the cells with formulas. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth Koebel" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:48:53 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip Bob, Likewise I shouldn't have snapped my reply. Sorry. Beth Sent from my iPhone On Nov 19, 2009, at 8:54, [email protected] wrote: Beth, I knew you didn't think that it was. I shouldn't have been so quick to fire of the email. It is an instinctual reaction to seeing these extremely mis-measured trees listed by agencies that should know better. Grrrrr! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth Koebel" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:53:13 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip Bob, I didn't say it was. I wrote the Missouri Big Tree web site had it listed as such. I think that I got somewhere around 100-125. The persimmon isn't as tall has they have it listed either. I am currently trying to get the DOC to correct it but you know how that goes. Beth Sent from my iPhone On Nov 19, 2009, at 7:22, [email protected] wrote: Beth No way that Pumpkin Ash is even remotely close to 150. I measured that tree a number of years ago. I can't remember what the height was, but much less than 150. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth Koebel" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:15:33 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip Larry, I don't know if you will see this before you get to Big Oak Tree State Park or not but I thought I would send it anyway just in case. I am working else I could meet you there. From what I remember and find on the web there are four champs located there. As you come down the road turn into the first parking area. This will have picnic tables and swings for the kids. As you are you standing with your back towards the field across the road the persimmon is forward and to your left. The Rusty Blackhaw ( Viburmum rifidulum ) is along the roadside to the right of the parking lot as you are leaving the park. The Bald Cypress and Pumpkin Ash are located down the boardwalk. To get to the boardwalk from the parking area with the persimmon take a left on the road and it will be on your right side. They have built a little info booth at the beginning of it. What the Missouri Champion Tree list has for measurments are as follows: Pumpkin Ash (National Champ) 188" cbh 150' height 77' crown Bald Cypress 306" cbh 123' height 84' crown Rusty Blackhaw 43" cbh 28' height 25' crown Persimmon 93" cbh 124' height 40' crown Beth Trees are the answer.--bumper sticker from Illinois Forest Association -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] <GrowthModeler.xls> -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected]
