Bob- I'll defer to the dendro-gurus on what statistical magic can be brought to bear on that... Re height, genetically I think trees can be predisposed to partition their energies/auxins/etc in the full spectrum of the horizontal to vertical growth continuum. Add the complexity of site qualities, and you're back in a nature vs nurture discussion.
Sent from Don's iPhone 3GS... On Nov 19, 2009, at 4:16 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Don, > > Yes, but I raised the question about radial growth separately. > Sorry to have confused things. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "DON BERTOLETTE" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:49:55 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: RE: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip > > Bob- > Bob- > Maybe I missed your point...isn't your excel spreadsheet 'growing > annual increments', ie diameter/circumference? And aren't you > predicting height associations with them? > -Don > > > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:14:05 +0000 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip > > Don, > > I wasn't thinking of height, just radial growth. Are there any > patterns that dendro scientists are observing? Neil Pederson did a > study a few years ago of northern red oak growing patterns. He came > to some interesting conclusions. maybe he'll share them with is. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Bertolette" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:53:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip > > Bob- > It's generally accepted that dbh/cbh/age corelation with height is > widely variable...dendrochronology can tell you when a tree is > released, eg landowner has a patch cut done nearby, permitting more > light, which shows up in the ring widths/patterns, but not > necessarily in heights... > Don > > Sent from Don's iPhone 3GS... > > On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:27 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Beth, > > Agency-promoted champion tree lists on ourother discussion on what > big trees of the past could achieve in the way of height and girth. > What sources can we trust? Many of the champion tree lists and > references to them contain mis-measured trees. Separating fact from > fiction using those lists as clues to maximums is a nearly > impossible task for us. But since these lists include contributions > from many people with credentials, we can never know which accounts, > past or present, are truly credible. In the case of historical > references, some of us are inclined to give the original sources the > benefit of the doubt. Others of us stand staunchly against trusting > any of the accounts regardless of the source. I'm one of those who > can't quite make up his mind. I've been mentally stacking up the pro > and con arguments. > > Lee's recent comments are very interesting about trees growing > faster today. I have no idea about how we could go about analyzing > height growth of the past, but from growth ring analysis, I'd think > a lot could be done. The dendro scientists see growth patterns from > trees in the East that are 200 to 600 years old. They also see > patterns from young trees. What can they tell us? Neil? How fast are > trees growing today compared to past years during early and later > years? > > This brings me to a line of questioning. What does it take in the > way of annual growth for a white pine to get up to say 220 feet? > Could we develop theoretical growth models and gain insights from > them? As a starter, I've attached a simple spreadsheet that allows > the user to enter a series of annual growth rates in feet in Column > A. In column B the user enters the number of years the tree > maintains each growth rate. The spreadsheet does the rest. I've > protected the cells with formulas. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth Koebel" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:48:53 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip > > Bob, > Likewise I shouldn't have snapped my reply. Sorry. > Beth > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 19, 2009, at 8:54, [email protected] wrote: > > Beth, > > I knew you didn't think that it was. I shouldn't have been so quick > to fire of the email. It is an instinctual reaction to seeing these > extremely mis-measured trees listed by agencies that should know > better. Grrrrr! > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth Koebel" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:53:13 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip > > Bob, > I didn't say it was. I wrote the Missouri Big Tree web site had it > listed as such. I think that I got somewhere around 100-125. The > persimmon isn't as tall has they have it listed either. I am > currently trying to get the DOC to correct it but you know how that > goes. > Beth > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 19, 2009, at 7:22, [email protected] wrote: > > Beth > > No way that Pumpkin Ash is even remotely close to 150. I measured > that tree a number of years ago. I can't remember what the height > was, but much less than 150. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth Koebel" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:15:33 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Big Oak Tree State Park and Wisconsin Trip > > Larry, > > I don't know if you will see this before you get to Big Oak Tree > State Park or not but I thought I would send it anyway just in > case. I am working else I could meet you there. From what I > remember and find on the web there are four champs located there. > As you come down the road turn into the first parking area. This > will have picnic tables and swings for the kids. As you are you > standing with your back towards the field across the road the > persimmon is forward and to your left. The Rusty Blackhaw (Viburmum > rifidulum) is along the roadside to the right of the parking lot as > you are leaving the park. The Bald Cypress and Pumpkin Ash are > located down the boardwalk. To get to the boardwalk from the > parking area with the persimmon take a left on the road and it will > be on your right side. They have built a little info booth at the > beginning of it. > > What the Missouri Champion Tree list has for measurments are as > follows: > > Pumpkin Ash (National Champ) > 188" cbh 150' height 77' crown > > Bald Cypress > 306" cbh 123' height 84' crown > > Rusty Blackhaw > 43" cbh 28' height 25' crown > > Persimmon > 93" cbh 124' height 40' crown > > Beth > > Trees are the answer.--bumper sticker from Illinois Forest Association > > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > <GrowthModeler.xls> > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected]
