Gaines- How about 390' redwood in California?
-Don > Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:42:20 -0500 > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Re: White pine growth rates--something of interest about > growth possibilities > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > Jack: > > OK, now I am on your side. I have been on the fence all along, but > I do have to admit the possibility--not that there were general > forests of these 250 foot tall trees, but that there could have been > individual trees and/or limited groves of trees approaching that > height. > > The picture I have from the old Wassau insurance ad was really an > eye opener for me. The trunks of these trees were really huge. I > would guess in the 5 to 6 foot range. And they were growing in a > forest and close together!! There are no white pines like that alive > today. White pines can live to over 400 years as ENTS has verified, > and they do have the capability to add height until they die. Yes, > there has been a lot of time for white pine forests to re-grow, and we > don't have any 250 footers showing up, or anything really close. But > we don't have a lot of white pine forests with trees 300 years old or > older either. There may be a few, or a few individual trees, but I > don't have any reports that these are generally on premier class 1, or > top class 2 growing sites, and in addition growing on sites with > competition and/or crown position factors, that would encourage > maximum height growth. > > So was it possible there were 250 foot tall white pines? Yes, I > think so. But I draw the line with the reports of the 425 foot tall > Douglas fir in Washington. Now that is bunk!! > > --Gaines > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 1/6/10, JACK SOBON <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Gaines, Ed Frank, Bob, ENTS, > > I would be highly suspect of historical white pine height measurements > > of standing trees, but I believe all the reports are of felled specimens. > > As for measuring felled trees, I have dropped thousands of white pine in the > > 80-120' range and measured a few hundred. The trunk occasionally fractures > > at upper branch whorls and the top 3 or 4 feet might have to be looked for > > nearby but the tree's trunk is still intact and easy to measure after > > limbing. I think that if someone wanted bragging rights to an exceptional > > tree, they probably had it verified. > > The other stumbling block to this maximum height issue seems to be the > > exposure and canopy height issue. Most of you are envisioning a typical > > forest canopy on gently rolling ground. In such forests, I doubt the trees > > would have reached 200 feet. However, in a rugged landscape there are > > occasional pockets where trees can be much taller without being unduly > > exposed. In these rare cases, a pine could reach 250 feet and still be > > protected. I attach a sketch illustrating my point. The top drawing shows > > a forested ridge with the sun behind it. As you will see, the canopy height > > is not parallel with the ridge but tends to even out the profile. It is > > shorter at peaks and higher in hollows. Check this out for yourself at > > sunrise or sunset. It is easier this time of year with the leaves off and > > the sun so low. The lower drawing shows how a single 250 foot pine growing > > in a ravine can be way above other trees and still not be too > > exposed. The moist, fertile environment and quest for sun would encourage > > such growth. This would be a rare condition of course hence the relatively > > few historical reports of such trees. To my knowledge, none of the tallest > > pines measured recently (MA 169', CT 172', PA 182', NC 207') are growing in > > such a protected site and none are of the diameters of the historic > > examples. For instance, the Charlemont, MA pine felled in 1849 was seven > > feet in diameter 10' from the stump and 5' diameter 50' from the stump. Our > > tallest pine today has a 44" DBH! > > Every one is looking for reasons why it couldn't be true instead of how > > it might be true. Is 250' really that far-fetched? Where are the > > optimists? > > > > Jack Sobon _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/
