On Aug 21, 2008, at 11:45 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Mark S. Miller > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> When it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But when it does work, it's >> highly worthwhile because it's the closest thing we've got to proper >> lambda abstraction. > > ... and to *my* mind, the benefit of (defining the semantics as) > desugaring to something well-understood (be it proper lambda > abstraction or otherwise) is that the primitives of the language are > now more amenable to formal -- or even semi-formal -- reasoning.
We have experienced people on the committee who've formalized JS subset semantics (Dave Herman, Cormac Flanagan). But the problem I keep hammering on is that JS function != Lambda. >> From our point of view in trying to build secure JavaScript variants, > what I consider to be a huge breakthrough moment was when MarkM > realized that we can support existing JavaScript patterns (fondly > known as "monkey patching") by essentially desugaring one JavaScript > flavor to another JavaScript flavor, and doing all our security > reasoning about the second flavor. This is common practice in the PLT world, right? > And I'm harping on security -- and support for clear reasoning this > entails -- because I do believe it is crucial. Our work on the Caja > group is not unique; there are several JavaScript dialects out there > all trying to support the ubiquitous sharing of active content. The > browser's same origin policy no longer works for the brave new world > of social networks; gadgets; content aggregators; active > advertisements; and what not. We've all heard this in committee, somewhat to excess. The solution does not, in my opinion, preclude better semantics for new forms. > "Language as UI" issues are important, yes, but the *most* important > thing is to be very careful and minimalistic about any new foundations > that EcmaScript drives into in the ground -- ones that cannot be built > on top of existing foundations. These have proven to be impossible to > pull up again. You don't have to tell me. I've been around this block more than anyone now involved, starting in May 1995. I think you're fighting the last war. There's a risk in not adopting what implementations have already proven, beyond what was written down (with lots of errata) in 1999. At best, your position is yin to my yang. I don't think it's a trump card. /be _______________________________________________ Es-discuss mailing list [email protected] https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
