On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:40 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote:
> * Allen Wirfs-Brock wrote:
>> This whole issue of the use of Syntax Diagrams rather than BNF is a
>> stylist debate that is hard to take seriously. If TC39 informed you that
>> we are converting the notation used in ECMA-404 to a BNF formalism would
>> that end the objections to normatively referencing ECMA-404 from
>> 4627bis? Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.
>
> If TC39 said ECMA-404 is going to be replaced by a verbatim copy of the
> ABNF grammar in draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-08 with pretty much no other
> discussion of JSON and a clear indication that future editions will not
> add such discussion, and will not change the grammar without IETF con-
> sensus, I would be willing to entertain the idea of making ECMA-404 a
> normative reference.
Note that ECMA-404 already says (in the introduction):
"It is expected that other standards will refer to this one, strictly adhering
to the JSON text format, while imposing restrictions on various encoding
details. Such standards may require specific behaviours. JSON itself specifies
no behaviour.
Because it is so simple, it is not expected that the JSON grammar will ever
change. This gives JSON, as a foundational notation, tremendous stability."
The second paragraph is speaking about the language described by the grammar,
not the actual formalism used to express the grammar. I'm quite sure that there
is no interest at all within TC39 to ever change the actual JSON language. If
you are looking for some sort of contractual commitment from ECMA, I suspect
you are wasting your time. Does the IETF make such commitments?
TC39 is a consensus based organization so I can't make commitments for it or
the ECMA-404 project editor. But, let me quote two previous statements I've
made on this thread concerning the grammar notation:
"It's silly to be squabbling over such a notational issues and
counter-productive if such squabbles results multiple different normative
standards for the same language/format. TC39 would likely be receptive to a
request to add to ECMA-404 an informative annex with a BNF grammar for JSON
(even ABNF, even though it isn't TC39's normal BNF conventions). Asking is
likely to produce better results than throwing stones."
"The position stated by TC39 that ECMA-404 already exists as a normative
specification of the JSON syntax and we have requested that RFC4627bis
normatively reference it as such and that any restatement of ECMA-404 subject
matter should be marked as informative. We think that dueling normative
specifications would be a bad thing. Seeing that the form of expression used by
ECMA-404 seems to be a issue for some JSON WG participants I have suggested
that TC39 could probably be convinced to revise ECMA-404 to include a BNF style
formalism for the syntax. If there is interest in this alternative I'd be
happy to champion it within TC39."
This doesn't mean that TC39 would necessarily agree to eliminate the Syntax
Diagrams, or that we wouldn't carefully audit any grammar contribution to make
sure that it is describing the same language. There may also be minor issues
that need to be resolved. But we seem to agree that we already are both
accurately describing the same language so this is really about notational
agreement.
>
> How soon would TC39 be able to make such a decision and publish a re-
> vised edition of ECMA-404 as described above?
As a base line, ECMA-404 was created in less than a week. It takes a couple
months to push through a letter ballot to above a revised standard.
Allen
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