On Saturday, January 26, 2002, at 11:43 AM, Jeff M wrote:

> AVZ also lacks the "holier-than-thou" attitude that is common place 
> with etree.  The situation on etree
> reminds me of the days of tape trading.  Those with large collections 
> did not even want to hear from you unless you had a certain number of 
> hours to trade.  It was like these people felt that everyone should be 
> grateful for their presence, and if it was not
> for them trading would never happen.  Etree helped to eliminate that 
> problem for a little while, but here we are again.  The site-ops are 
> now the tape traders that project the attitude that we are lucky to 
> have them.

Except siteops don't _ask_ for anything except that you don't noop, 
don't login multiple times at once and don't hammer.


> Don't misunderstand me I appreciate the
> work it takes to host a server.  I just don't like the attitude that 
> comes with it.

I agree that the attitude you mention is quite uncalled for.

> I was banned from a site due to a problem with the server, and not with 
> anything that I did.  I emailed the site-op to let him know that I was 
> having trouble with his
> server, but the reply I got was that he really did not give a f***, and 
> I was lucky to be able to d/l in the first place.

That's lame.  You are lucky to be able to download, but that doesn't 
mean you should have to kiss someone's a _ _.

> Not all site-ops are this way and many are quite friendly, but there 
> are plenty who feel that the majority of the etree community
> should get down on their knees and kiss their hairy crack.
>
> I also have a problem with this whole WOB tax.  I thought this was a 
> discussion list.  A place to discuss things, and have a conversation.

It irritates me every time I see this complaint.  Not because I disagree 
with what you said above, but because _no etree admin_ _ever_ said 
"Don't discuss things."  No one from etree admin ever said "If you 
discuss, you have to pay a WOB tax."  That is just a misconception on 
your part and the part of many etree'ers.  It's _not_ true.  The only 
time a WOB is required is when you ask for something (like an ISO or a 
login).
Otherwise, no WOB is necessary.  This IS a discussion list.  So discuss 
music, shns, etree, anything related to etree all you like and don't add 
a tax if you don't want to or can't.  It isn't required unless you are 
asking FOR something.


>   This too harks back to the days of tape trading when you would have 
> to pay a 2:1 tape tax if you wanted to trade.

This is hyperbole and a bad comparison.

>   I
> live in America.  I don't pay a tax to speak my mind.  Go ahead and 
> flame for saying this, but it is my opinion.
>

Again, no one said you have to pay a tax for expressing your opinion.  
Read the etree discussion list guidelines.

> Etree is a community.  Everyone should have their say without fear of 
> being banned or punished in some way.  I like to think etree was born 
> out of a desire to establish a group of people who love to share the 
> music.

That is why etree was established.  But as etree has grown, and more and 
more people get downloads, less and less people share.  Like it or not, 
the siteops do the vast majority of sharing here.  Right now there are 
300 servers serving up shows.  By tonight, 300 people will have 
downloaded a new show from etree servers.  How many of those people will 
offer something back to this community?  Maybe one?  Two on a good day?  
That's just as lame as the attitude that people get from siteops.

>   It would be nice if everyone was treated
> with an equal amount of respect, but instead it has become much like 
> the society in which etree exists.  There are the "haves" and "have 
> nots".  We have a police force (moderators), a royal family (the 
> Admins), the rich  (site-ops), and the plebeians
> (everyone else).
>

You still have to remember that the so-called 'haves' are sharing music 
24/7.  The have-nots are downloading, but not sharing.  And they cause 
siteops a lot more grief than you might suspect.  Between hammering, 
nooping, and receiving nasty emails from people who can't log in because 
your site is full, siteops get more than their fair share of abuse.  
That does not justify unkindness or meanness (like you described 
above).  But let's not pretend that siteops are just a bunch of jerks 
who have tons of music and screw everyone else.  And let's not forget 
that a _lot_ more music would be shared on etree if everyone downloading 
would share a copy of the shows they download.

> AVZ is a great place.  It exists without the attitude that is ruining 
> etree.

Based on the email that started this thread, I think I'd have to see it 
to believe it.

>   We have great discussions, and we don't pay a tax.  I appreciate 
> etree, and what it has done for me.  I encourage everyone to join AVZ, 
> but leave the attitude at the door.  Thin
> skinned people need not apply.

I think you make some good points, Jeff, particularly about the few 
mean-spirited siteops you mentioned.  But let's be sure to keep things 
in proper perspective.  Etree is  dependent upon a group of siteops who 
dedicate time and money to share music.
A few years ago there used to be constant b&p and freebie offers on 
etree.  Several every day.  Now there are 5 times more etree folks, and 
one fifth the amount of sharing among end users.  That frustrates 
siteops because, as you said, etree is all about sharing music.  If 
etree downloaders would share more, there would be less demand on the 
servers.  More people would have the music they seek.  And everyone 
would be less frustrated.  Leave the attitude at the door--I agree 
completely.  But don't blame a few mean-spirited siteops for what you 
perceive as an overwhelming attitude problem among 'haves'.  That's just 
not the way it is.

Peace,
Jeff

>
> Jeff
>
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