Matt: I'm not an angry person either, and I wasn't taking issue with you personally. I think you are confusing my passion for the argument with insult, which is not what I meant and I don't think it's what I wrote.
Saying that people should buy something because it's American (or consider doing so, which in the end is the same recommendation) is either false patriotism or it's self-serving. (I buy Kodak because it benefits ME!) If it's self-serving, then so be it, but that still argues that helping us is more important than helping them. On re-reading, I think your argument still distorts the points I made. I didn't say YOU were "vulgar"; I said the argument was, and I think it still is. Don't make it personal -- it's not. The "cost argument" is a direct reference to your saying that people should be "willing to spend a little extra" to support an American company. Why? Shouldn't Americans be able to sell something more cheaply in the domestic market? Especially if they're going to Mexico for labor which must be cheaper than it is in Japan? How is saying cost is a red herring an indication of my anger? Your talk about my "feelings" is completely irrelevant -- I used "feel" when I meant "think," which was a little semantic error, but clearly the point had nothing to do with "feelings" and your identifying it as that evades the point, namely that Kodak seems to have a pretty high markup compared to Fuji considering the situation. Similarly, my saying that I would "damn well" buy an American car if blah-blah-blah is not swearing AT you, and I think you know that. Swearing AT you would be saying you're a damn fool, which I didn't say then and I'm not saying now. Telling me to keep the discussion civil "if you can" is a direct insult to me, and it really lays waste all of the talk of my insulting you. Look, you advanced a highly controversial political argument, and when I met that argument with predictable passion, you ducked. I'm not saying that you don't have a point with the "Buy American" logic, but I disagree with it. You can't toss a skeet in the air and not expect someone to shoot. Anyway, you seem like a nice guy, so I hope the rest of your weekend goes well. Take care. pb My WOB is already taken, and this is the end of the (off-) topic from me. On 3/23/02 5:05 PM, "Matt Schalit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Peter Braverman wrote: >> 1. The implication that American jobs are somehow "worth more" than other >> people's jobs is vulgar and juvenile. > > > That was not the implication. Don't get into name calling. > That's dehumanizing, and I'm a nice guy. The point is that > people I know are underemployed and supporting an American > company like Kodak is a way to help my friends and family. > There is nothing wrong with wanting to help my family prosper. > There is nothing wrong with wanting my country to be successful. > My country does a lot to help the world because of it's successful > economy, and I support efforts to make our economy strong. > > > > >> People in other countries suffer when >> they are unemployed and prosper when their economies do well. It is only by >> accident of birth that most of us on this list are Americans. > > > It's not an accident but a choice that was made by my > ancestors. They supported America as do I. I am not > suggesting people buy Kodak products out of patriotic > reasons. I suggest that Kodak, being an American company, > is more likely to benefit Americans by way of jobs and > side orders thus helping our economy, our way of life, > our values, and my family. > > > > >> 2. The "American Way" is to support those products you think are best. > > Yes, that's a first year economics point of view that's valid. > People could argue that Nike shoes are better than others. > People could also argue that buying Nike shoes supports the poor > treatment of children in other countries. People could argue > that Mitsubishi VCRs are the best in their price range, but > buying those would mean supporting a company that destroys more > rain forest in South America than any other. Products made in > America are required to conform to certain social taxes and > constraints. We attempt to harm ourselves and our environment > less than other countries do. > > >> If >> people perceive that American products are better than Japanese products, >> they will buy them. If not, American companies should make better products, >> not appeal to people's false sense of patriotic duty. > > > Some phantom American company is not appealing "to people's false sense of > patriotic duty" in this thread. I am asking people to consider helping > American businesses in an effort to help themselves. > > > > >> There is no long-term >> benefit when inferiority is rewarded, in the car industry, the steel >> industry, or the CDR industry. > > I am not suggesting that you support what you feel is inferior. > I agree that a free market economy works well. This thread is > not about cars, steel, or inferior products. It's about Kodak > and Fuji and how one of them can help our economy and the other > drains it. > > >> 3. The cost argument is a red herring. > > Nobody made a cost argument. I guess you are drifting this because > you are angry about something, but I don't know what. Don't > do that if you want to have this discussion with me. > > > >> Why on earth should an America >> company charge MORE for a product than a foreign company, which has to pay >> export fees, import duties (in some cases), and transportation costs? Makes >> me feel like Kodak is gouging people. > > > I'm sorry you feel that way. This thread is not meant to be > about your feelings. > > > >> 4. I actually do buy Kodaks -- because I find them more reliable than the >> others, and in spite of the fact that the company has frittered away its >> long-time competitive advantage over the last decade. > > > I doubt either of us is qualified to discuss Kodak's last 10 years. > I am suggesting people consider buying Kodak because they are a good, > respected, and cherished American business, which would help our economy. > > > >> You're deluding >> yourself if you think a few thousand CDs have anything to do with Kodak's >> demise, compared to years of myopic management. > > > On the contrary, Sir, I am not deluding myself, nor do I share > your analysis. I have not offered the conclusion you seem so > ready to put into my mouth. You may want to reread my post. > > > >> 5. Oh, by the way, Kodak discs are made in Mexico, not America. > > I didn't attempt to analyze where the discs are made and > what the affects of that are. I ask people to consider Kodak > during their next cdr/camera purchase because they are in > a tough competition with Fuji and they continue to make > good products. > > > > >> In fact, the >> Mexicans may be on to something, because my Volkswagen was made in Mexico as >> well and it's terrific. And you can damn well believe that if Chevy made >> something remotely as appealing for the same cost, I'd buy it. >> >> pb > > > > I don't care for your "damn well" tone. It implies that I'm not > capable of respecting your decision to buy a car of your choice > and that swearing at me would force me to believe you more, based > upon some implied threat of your being tough or my being damned for > thinking otherwise. Keep this discussion civil, if you can. You are > stretching credibility here. > > Regards, > Matthew > > > > > > > > >> Gigantic WOB tax: Brand-new seed of GD 7-7-89 SBD in SHN or audio format to >> the first three who correctly answer this question: Which company, Honda or >> Ford, produces a greater percentage of their American-sold vehicles in >> America by the hands of American workers? Delete "[etree]" from your >> response. No responses after 5:00 eastern. Weiners only notified. >> >> >> >> On 3/23/02 3:18 PM, "Matt Schalit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>> Fujfilm blank cdr discs are often made by Taiyo Yuden, >>> making them a popular choice with traders. >>> >>> I'd just like to point out that by supporting Fuji, >>> people are contributing to Kodak's demise. If you feel >>> underemployed these days and live in the USA, you might >>> consider supporting American companies in an effort to >>> produce more local jobs. >>> >>> If you're not willing to spend the extra money on >>> Kodak Ultima Gold cdrs or don't like them, you still >>> might consider some Kodak film when shopping for camera >>> supplies next time. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Matthew >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> etree.org etree mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> http://mail.etree.org/mailman/listinfo/etree >>> >>> Need help? Ask <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> etree.org etree mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> http://mail.etree.org/mailman/listinfo/etree >> >> Need help? Ask <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > _______________________________________________ > etree.org etree mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > http://mail.etree.org/mailman/listinfo/etree > > Need help? 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