I'd like to jump in again if I may. I spent 4 years at university
without graduating. Umich is supposed to be an excellent engineering
program, but my experiences were pretty lousy. In general, I've gotten
the feeling that a modern Comp Sci degree just means that a person can
do what they should be able to in order to be admitted into an undergrad
program. I've certainly found that I learned MUCH more about computing
both before and after college than I did while in.
But this is all beside the point. When I interview people I generally
touch on basic computing concepts quickly as a weeder, and then move on
into the "important" stuff. Generally I'm trying to figure out 2
things. Can a person think and solve problems and can they communicate
effectively. I often use logic puzzles as a way to test people. I'll
tell them right up front that I don't care if they solve it during the
interview, I just want to see how they think, so please guide me through
their mental processes as they attempt to solve it. This lets me get a
feeling for how they tackle tough situations, how well they can
communicate their thoughts, and how they resolve problems. I've shot
several candidates down because, while they could fly through computing
related minutia they showed no logical pattern in their attempts to
solve the puzzle. Most often people with a lot of seniority who fell
into the trap of thinking all problems can be mapped onto past ones.
I tend to feel that most of what is taught in a CS course is merely
syntax. that can be learned at any time. The real key in my mind is
"Can this person think and solve problems?". Second is "Can this person
communicate adequitely?". Actual specific field knowledge is third on
my list.
Back onto my rant about most universities. I had problems because of
the pace. I'd get bored halfway through the term. I would much rather
see one or two programs that ask students to pick a project per term and
just make faculty available to point students in the right direction and
help them over the rough spots. The idea being that in order to
comprehend and impliment the solution to the project the student would
have to learn the basic concepts, and being motivated they would retain
them better. Patience is NOT something which should be required
learning at a university. The job of a university is to EDUCATE it's
students. NOT to be a continuation of our secondary school system,
where we teach to the median and to hell with all the others.
-Mike
On Mon, 2006-02-13 at 19:44 -0800, T. Joseph CARTER wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 01:12:55PM -0800, Ben Barrett wrote:
> > Hah, that sounds about right -- but have you been to any institutions of
> > "higher learning" where a BS automatically means anything about the
> > degree-holder?? I have not! BS degree is more or less bullshhh... unless
> > you're an HR person :(
>
> There was a time when it did mean something. As I've said though, with few
> exceptions, you no longer can expect a BA/BS degree in Computer Science to
> mean that the person could even produce an expression tree generator, let
> alone a C compiler. I remember fondly the course catalogs of several
> universities when I was entering high school where a C compiler was a
> common senior project for even the deadbeats. ;)
>
> It is noteworthy that this was like 1992 where we were happy if our
> classes were in the lab that had 386's with Turbo C++ 3 and Pascal 7.
>
>
> > As for integer sort and binary search, I know very few programmers who would
> > do this from memory in 30 minutes. Most I know (yes, outside my workplace
> > too...) would use libraries as appropriate, and use references. I
> > understand what you're saying about it being something of an indicator about
> > "teachability"... but I think if there was a really good test for
> > capabilities that fit well across the entire "programming marketplace" then
> > none of this thread would be needed :)
>
> Oh come now. You can't tell me that they couldn't work out how to do a
> selection sort on paper. =) (Selection sort is the one that guarantees
> that after one pass, element 0 contains the lowest sorting value.)
>
> The major bits of complexity (file I/O or input parsing) were not part of
> the exercise. I pretty much would pull one of about five such exercises
> out of a hat before an interview, but nothing more complex than the sort
> and search problem.
>
>
> > Joseph, have you been enrolled in CS programs anywhere else? My experience
> > is limited but better than the majority of students who went through a
> > 4-year track right out of high school -- I started as EE at PSU back east,
> > then took some time, then enjoyed LCC a bit before wrapping up the BS at UO
> > in '01. I almost went to CWRU and/or CMU, too snooty for my tastes though.
>
> I have not managed to complete a four year program, but I have been
> enrolled in a couple of two year transfer things and have evaluated a
> number of four year programs' course content.
>
>
> > I'm sure others have feedback on this issue. For the disinterested, my
> > apologies for a distinct lack of 'nix content... I've been helping out a
> > bunch of folks who are slightly younger than myself, who don't have any
> > collegiate degrees, who are perfectly capable and very interested in doing
> > good work... and to some of them I've been advising avoiding a BS program.
> > For some, I think it is worthwhile.
>
> For all but the major corporations, real world experience trumps a fresh
> BS/BA any day of the week. The level at which I start having expectations
> of graduates is the masters level. I think the only reason the corporate
> types want the degrees is so that they need only differenciate clueful and
> compitent from clueless underachievers.
>
> People without degrees tend to fit a much larger range of combinations of
> cluefulness and ability. That's why I tended to want them to sit down and
> write some code for me--it establishes that they have a certain level of
> both kinds of skills.
The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to keep all the pieces. ---
Aldo Leopold
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