I think if any National or International organisation wants to introduce Game Advisors then they should be prepared to answer peoples' objections and questions in whatever forum they're posed. I don't think there's any call to insult anyone around the issue, irrelevant of how contentious it may be.
However, directing people to facebook or reddit isn't going to progress things. This email chain shows that there are plenty of active and engaged people here, so WFDF / EFDF should be prepared to respond here, as well as in other places. Liam, I respect that you may not have time to address people here, so please ask Ruben/WFDF task force/whoever is currently responsible for GA's to respond to this email list as well. There are a number of arguments against introducing Game Advisors, which won't change unless and until they're fully resolved. Which probably won't happen for many years. *DemandWho actually wants the GA's? And why? And are there no other solutions that would achieve the same or similar results, which don't require referees for every game?Ultimate has been played for decades without any form of referee or umpire involved in decisions. The USAU "observers" are referees by another name.I would be greatly disappointed in Ultimate if "observers" were introduced internationally. GA's are a step in that direction.(Sports are played internationally under one standard set of rules. That USAU now plays with "observers" means that they're not playing by WFDF rules, and it can be argued that therefore they aren't playing Ultimate anymore, but some regional variant, similar to Rugby League & Rugby Union starting from one set of rules and now being two very different sports.)Cost * Who pays? Tournaments are already expensive. Adding 2+ GA's per pitch would increase the costs exponentially. As well as putting huge demands on the TD/TOC to manage them. If only adding GA's to a limited number of pitches, then some will want to know why they're paying for GA's they never see (whether that's a benefit or a hindrance.) At the end of the day, players will be paying for GA's, if they're introduced. But they should at the least be given the opportunity to say whether they want them or not, rather than it being presented as a given that there will be GA's. Saying that people can attend or boycott tournaments with/without GA's isn't reasonable when those are national / WUCC / EBUCC level events which have no alternatives. Regarding the positive impact of GA's at Perth, what did they do to have that impact? Was it simply their presence, or did they have an active role? Could that not have been replicated in some other manner, without GA's? ie more emphasis on Spirit, stronger leadership from the coaching team, even penalties for flagrantly breaching rules, sanctions against individual players / teams for poor spirit, etc While Ultimate is primarily ruled by Spirit, I'm sure everyone has played a match with/against someone who didn't represent the ideals of Spirit. The issue I have with the current system is that lack of Spirit isn't recorded or reflected anywhere for future matches, and generally there isn't any feedback given to that player's captains / team. I've personally told people that they aren't welcome to play with my team again unless they respect SOTG. GA's / "observers" / referees take, at least some of, the responsibility for policing Spirit away from the players. Regards Nick Bond (me, not my team, or anyone else) On 26 February 2018 at 12:42, Simon Hill <si.h...@ukultimate.com> wrote: > I watched some of the games at WU24 in Perth and my impression was that > the GAs provided helpful support in some of the more difficult situations. > One of the games where the GA really helped IMO was between Germany and > Italy open teams - where they had an incredible (but also very tense) > sudden death point. The main benefit - again just IMO - the GA provided > was by *indirectly* helping the teams to keep emotional responses to > contested calls under control, and I think that helped the two teams to > play a really fantastic and dramatic last point. Congratulations to both > teams and the GAs in that match. > > For the folks here that are strongly against the GA programme: did you > watch some of those games in Perth? What did you think of the impact of > GAs in those games? Mostly I saw no impact (which is the ideal that the > GAs are hoping for). And in a few cases I saw a very positive impact. > > Si > > > > > > > > > Si Hill, UK Ultimate > si.h...@ukultimate.com > Tel: 0844 8045949 <0844%20804%205949> > Mob: 07802 311298 > Skype: sihill22 > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Patrick van der Valk (BULA) < > patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org> wrote: > >> Agreed. Part of Spirit is respectful communication. We clearly all care. >> Please stay civil. >> >> >> >> Having said this, the essence of Mirko’s comment is correct. Some people >> are not in Facebook and if the discussion started here, we not also >> continue it here on the mailing list? >> >> >> >> I would be interested in getting some views from the EUF on the topic as >> well as my initial question: what problem are you trying to solve in >> Europe? This is clearly not North America and the EUF championships show, >> IMHO, that GA’s are not (yet) needed in Europe. I think player education is >> more effective, something that got completely lost in the US with the use >> of Observers, as they are now the people that are maintaining Spirit (and >> using budget money). >> >> >> >> Liam, I know it is tough dealing with multiple communication platforms, >> but that is a sign of the times. I would be grateful if you (or others from >> the WFDF) could also continue the conversation here. >> >> >> >> TIA >> >> >> >> Patrick >> >> >> >> *From:* EuroDisc [mailto:eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de] *On >> Behalf Of *Robert Jablko >> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 10:38 AM >> *To:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de >> *Subject:* Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors >> >> >> >> It seems there are a lot of emotions concerning the advisor topic, and >> that should be discussed, here or somewhere else, but I strongy feel that >> neither Liam or anybody else in ultimate deserves any kind of hostility. >> >> >> >> Cheers, Robse >> >> ------------------------------------------ >> >> Former chair of Rules and SOTG comitee, Germany >> >> >> >> 2018-02-26 11:22 GMT+01:00 Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de>: >> >> are you deaf? can't you read? The dsicussion needs to take place on the >> email group. This one. >> >> I think I made this clear. >> >> I am not gonna join any discussion on FB. Why? I made this clar as well. >> >> Keep the spirit! >> Mirko, YeaHaw! >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hi Mirko, >> > >> > My personal oppinion is actually an email list and a Facebook group are >> > both terrible places for a discussion. But thats just my opinion. I'm >> not >> > hosting or directing any type of discussion - I'm just happy and >> > encouraging of one taking place and when I can I'll personally get >> > involved >> > with my experiences and POV. >> > >> > Where would you like a discussion to take place? >> > >> > Liam >> > >> > Just to make it really clear. I sent a message to several locations >> about >> > looking for support from TOCs. That started a conversation that I am not >> > coordinating :) people are free to discuss however, wherever they like. >> I >> > also did not invent the GA system. I was not a part of the task force. >> > There person who did, and was has opened a discussion on Facebook if >> you'd >> > like to join in. >> > >> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 10:04, Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> hello, >> >> >> >> I couldn't care lees how nice a message is. People were invited and - >> >> tbh >> >> - asked to continue the discussion on the actual email group. >> >> >> >> FB is the LAST tool to discuss anything meaningless. >> >> >> >> But instead you went there. The place of meaninglesness. >> >> >> >> Greetings from Berlin, >> >> >> >> Mirko, YeaHaw! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hey Patrick, >> >> > >> >> > Ruben has offered to discuss things on the ED Facebook group. He >> wrote >> >> a >> >> > nice messages there :) >> >> > >> >> > I'm afraid that my time is extreamly limited at the moment due to >> work >> >> and >> >> > life commitments. Also Ruben knows more about the topic so he's a >> good >> >> > person to speak for/to. >> >> > >> >> > I'll reply as often as I can. >> >> > >> >> > If anyone asks a question directly to me, I'll obviously answer it >> >> (given >> >> > time). >> >> > >> >> > Regards, liam >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 07:51, oliver browne <ojhbro...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Hi Patrick, >> >> >> >> >> >> The conversation seems to have moved to the >> >> Ultimate-Players-in-Europe >> >> >> FB >> >> >> group, where the lead of the WFDF Rules committee, and the outgoing >> >> SotG >> >> >> chair have made themselves available for questions. >> >> >> >> >> >> Hope to see you & Sofia on the beach (Costa Brava perhaps?), or in >> >> the >> >> >> UPE >> >> >> FB group :) >> >> >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> Oliver >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> >> > >> >> > Sincerely, Liam Kelly >> >> > >> >> > Call me. +44 (0) 7595 618 129 <+44%207595%20618129> >> >> > Tweet me. @WordsFromLiam >> >> > ---------- >> >> > Make Liverpool, >> >> > 34 Regent Street, >> >> > North Docks, >> >> > Liverpool L3 7BN >> >> > >> >> > *What's relevant to you?* >> >> > CEO - Make Liverpool (www.makeliverpool.com) >> >> > Chair - Baltic Triangle, Liverpool (http://baltictriangle.co.uk/) >> >> > Coach Educator for UK Ultimate and World Flying Disc Federation >> >> > Game Advisor Committee for WFDF >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > EuroDisc mailing list >> >> > eurod...@ira.uka.de >> >> > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> > >> > Sincerely, Liam Kelly >> > >> > Call me. +44 (0) 7595 618 129 <+44%207595%20618129> >> > Tweet me. @WordsFromLiam >> > ---------- >> > Make Liverpool, >> > 34 Regent Street, >> > North Docks, >> > Liverpool L3 7BN >> > >> > *What's relevant to you?* >> > CEO - Make Liverpool (www.makeliverpool.com) >> > Chair - Baltic Triangle, Liverpool (http://baltictriangle.co.uk/) >> > Coach Educator for UK Ultimate and World Flying Disc Federation >> > Game Advisor Committee for WFDF >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroDisc mailing list >> eurod...@ira.uka.de >> http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroDisc mailing list >> eurod...@ira.uka.de >> http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >> > > > _______________________________________________ > EuroDisc mailing list > eurod...@ira.uka.de > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >
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