EV Digest 2382

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Ceramic heater voltage
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) A plan
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Meaningful Flags was:OT-huffington article
        by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Possible donor FS lists
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Jill Stein campaign seeks EVers in MA
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Rudman reg madness
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: EVessel (Was Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared? Electric 
sailing an' Stuff.)
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Battery search
        by Pete Hatton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: What are the odds?
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Ceramic heater voltage
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) WOT: Re: Meaningful Flags was:OT-huffington article
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Battery search
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: WOT: Re: Meaningful Flags was:OT-huffington article
        by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: A plan
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: For jeep fans (was: Re: Electric Jeep?)
        by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: A plan
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive wrote:
> 
> I had a sudden insight (if you'll pardon the pun) on the resistance we
> commonly get from the general public about an EV's range.  A lot of the
> time, they don't really mean, "How many miles can I drive before I have to
> recharge?"  They mean "How many DAYS can I drive before I have to recharge?"
...
...

Just tell them an EV, as rechargeable appliance, is no different 
from a cell phone. This people have no problem popping their
phones in the charging cradle *every* night and forget about it.
So what's the issue? (not question to you, suggested question to
them).

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With all this talk about heaters (and the first snow flakes of the
season), it's time I get my heater hooked back up.  How far can the
voltage be pushed? The ceramic heater in my truck was installed by the
previous owner, from an EV supplier so presumably the "good stuff" (but
not Randy's "great stuff :-). It was run on 120v pack before (and seemed
a little wimpy). Now I have a 176 volt pack.

Can I push the heater that far? Will it just self-limit the temperature,
or go up in a puff of smoke? My only other choice would be to use a 240
volt unit (or two 120's in series), but that then goes pretty far the
other way with major under voltage.

Last winter was very mild and I just used the warm jacket method, but
probably won't be that lucky this year.

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> I would like to see all EV's in the album for sale.  I know
> that somebody who puts 500 to 1000 hours into there EV doesn't
> want to sell it for the price of the parts but by putting the
> price that they would be happy with say 40k or what ever, they
> will help other people trying to sell there EV's.

Is my "baby" for sale? No. Except yes, it is. Someday. So maybe I should
start listing it now? After the first year or so I decided I really did
like EVs and I hoped that I'd just drive it into the ground and by then
I could buy a factory EV truck. Silly me. EVs are hard to wear out, and
(big) factories aren't going to make any.

All this spells another conversion. This time going "upscale" (regen =
AC, advanced/sealed batteries, etc). I could keep reworking this truck,
but it seems like sooner or later I'd be better off starting over,
especially since I could then get features like an extended cab.

So, perhaps it would be good to list it as 'for sale' - "everything has
a price" as they say. Most would likely laugh at the price, but if a
surprise nibble comes along, I sell it, get an ICE beater for a few
months, and use the proceeds to go to work on the new conversion? What
reflects on EVs the best? And what gets me into the next EV the most
economically? A fascinating thread with no answers.


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I've got this 1987 Nissan Bluebird that I've been driving for years,
but it's getting on a bit - got some rust, done 270,000km (~170,00 miles).
It also (of course) uses too much gas.

So I'm looking to buy a "new" car for driving around in, and perhaps
eventually converting.  The one I'm looking at seriously right now is a
1998 Fiat Punto.  I like the styling and the colour (metallic blue) but
there are many things wrong with it that I wouldn't have thought would be
wrong with a car that's only four years old so I could end up getting
something else.

The Plan, Part 1: I'm thinking about keeping the Bluebird and making it
a "proof of concept" EV, as a training project for making a "nice"
conversion eventually.  I still like the car even though it's getting old.
As a "proof of concept" EV it wouldn't have to get me to work every day
(though it would be nice if it could).  It's allowed to look like a
"rolling science project".  Batteries will be lead-acid, probably flooded.

The Plan, Part 2: I would eventually convert the Punto into the "nice" EV
that I really want, using knowledge gained from making the "proof of
concept" EV.  This is where I might go for more upmarket components like
AC motor, NiCd or NiMH batteries, assuming I can afford such things when
the time comes.

Obviously this is a rather long-term plan, and there is the inherent
danger that I won't ever get past the "proof of concept" stage.  That's
a risk I'm willing to live with (I think).

I have some questions for the list, and would welcome any comments.

Is the Bluebird (info below) a suitable donor car for the Proof of Concept
Rolling Science Project EV?  Or should I get the engine overhauled and
save it to make a pusher? (that would be the Plan, Part 3).  Or perhaps
both - keep the motor and tranny, and make it into a pusher after I've
finished with it as an EV?

And, assuming I do buy the Fiat Punto, is it going to be a suitable
conversion candidate when I get to that stage in a few years time?
I see there are a couple of small Fiats in the EV Album, the Punto
is a little bigger than either of them but still quite small.  If I
could do as well Mark Mongillo with his Fiamp, I'd be very happy.

Relevant information about the Bluebird:
* 1987 "U11" model (possibly also known as, or similar to, a Nissan Stanza)
* official curb weight - the original 1983 model was 1090kg (2400lb)
* dimensions and picture of the 1983 model here:
http://db.motorshow.or.jp/cgi-bin/car_history/detail.pl?style=en&id=1983018
* front-wheel drive
* auto - but I'm working on the theory of throwing out the transmission
  and using 2 motors with belt drive straight onto the bits that would
  normally be driven from the transmission (sorry, I don't know what
  they're called)
* power-assisted brakes
* power-assisted steering
* rust - it isn't in any structural places yet, and I could probably
  get it taken out if wanted to spend a few bucks on it.  Have already
  had rust along top edge of windscreen taken out, remainder is at the
  back.
* brakes - just about due for their 2nd overhaul if I was going to keep
  driving it as is.
* It's got a fairly big engine bay, enough room for lots of batteries in
  both the engine bay and the boot (trunk).

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
   --- Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>It best to stick to the truth, SUVs, etc. waste
>a precious resource that can NOT be replinished.

Well, I'll probably need a flame-proof suit after this post, but here goes:

Personally, I'd rather see people drive SUV's in circles all day than
listen to people whine about "conserving" petroleum fuels. I think we
should use them up as quickly as possible, which is the only way to get
mainstream acceptance of alternative forms of fuel.

Unless one sees a tremendous future advance in the extraction,
transportation and environmental effects of consumption of fossil fuels
that will insure environmental stability and protection, there is no reason
to try and extend the reign of petroleum's strangle hold on modern
civilization. Basically, all that this will accomplish is throwing the
burden of "the end of oil" onto future generations. We are responsible for
the consumption that has created the conditions that exist today, and I
think we should be the ones to pay the price of cleaning up the situation.
(I speak as the collective "we".  The members of this list could probably
be excepted for the most part, as we are already implementing a solution by
driving, building and researching EV's)

To throw a political bent on it, consider that when the oil gets scarce,
the military and government will attempt to save the very last of it for
themselves, to whatever detriment of the populace. Given the rate at which
our rights are eroding these days, the sooner we get over oil dependence,
the better for each of us. Face it, "we" are *not ever* going to quit
consuming oil until it is unavailable.

A "precious resource"? Not in my eyes, more like an evil cloud hanging over
our collective heads that needs to be eliminated through it's own consumption.

-S
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote
     I also know of a few also I am always looking/talking to people .  This
might be a good section to have at a web site the wanted EV trafic> .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:54 PM
Subject: Possible donor FS lists


> Is there an appropriate place to post about a car that could make for an
> interesting conversion.  It's a running ICE car, so I wouldn't think
> that the EV Tradin' Post would be appropriate, and I doubt the list
> would be good.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> TTFN,
> Lonnie Borntreger
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll admit to not really following this years gubernatorial race, but...

Jill Stein, Green Party candidate for Governor of Massachusetts, would
like to see EVers at some campaign stops throughout Massachusetts this
weekend (10/26-27):                                                     
                                    

>From www.jillwill.org:
> Bike Parade/Alter.Energy Convoy
> The Stein campaign will sponsor a Bike Parade through Boston
> and an Alternative Energy Convoy across the state. The two
> events will coincide and will bring public attention to Jill's
> transportation agenda. If you are interested in "Biking through
> Boston" or if you have a hybrid, electric, or diesal car that
> we can top off with biodiesal, contact me very soon. Jill will
> be in the lead car headig up the convoy and she will be speaking
> to communities along the route. (617)623-4733, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Anissa Sanborn wrote:
> The Green Car Club has just been invited to be a part of a statewide
> alternative energy convoy this coming weekend organized by the Jill
> Stein campaign. They are calling Greenfield the halfway point
> (starting in Boston, ending up in Greenfield in the evening). Would
> you Green Car Club members who own alternative fueled vehicles
> vehicles be interested in joining them for all/part of the
> convoy? They'll be staying the night in the Greenfield area and
> heading south to Amherst/Northampton the next day, then continuing to
> Springfield and Worcester. Please call Pat Keaney, Jill Stein's
> campaign manager, when you get this 617-623-4733. Email is
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Anissa Sanborn
> Transportation Event Coordinator
> The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
> (P) 413-774-6051x30
> (F) 413-774-6053
> (E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (W) www.nesea.org

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If this is a new pack, the regs turn green to indicate which batteries
charge earlier than the others. If the green LED goes steady, check the heat
sink temperature. If it is getting hot, it is doing its job trying to
protect the battery from over voltage. Putting a Mk 1 across it to help hold
the voltage down is a good idea. It probably won't be needed after a few
cycles. The other alternative is to turn the charger current or down so the
green does not go on solid.

The red LEDs indicate a battery getting too low or the reg needs
calibration. It can also mean you are drawing too many amps for the battery
condition. Keep the amps down for the first few cycles on a new pack. Try to
run the car easy until the first undervoltage LED comes on, then charge the
car until all the greens blink and the Reds go off.

You can check the calibration of the undervoltage and setpoint pots on the
Mk 2 regulators with the following procedure.

If you are using regs on 4 cell (8 volt) batteries, make sure R2 is 300K
ohms. Normally R2 is 510 ohms for 6 cell (12 volt) batteries. If this
resistor is not changed, the calibration set points will not match the
procedure and the temperature compensation will be too steep (-3 mV/C
vice -2 mV/C).

Use a voltmeter on TP2 (TP1 is ground) to measure the regulation set point.
Normally this is 2.45 volts per cell (if R2 is correct). Adjust VR1 to
change this. 2.45 Volts per cell will regulate a 6 cell (12 volt battery) at
14.7 volts. You can adjust the value to suit your application.

Use a voltmeter on TP3 (TP1 is ground) to measure the undervoltage set
point. Normally this is 1.75 volts per cell (if R2 is correct). Adjust VR2
to change this. 1.75 Volts per cell on a 6 cell (12 volt battery) will
trigger the red LED at 10.5 volts. You can adjust the value to suit your
application. If you have a soft pack and a big amp controller, you might
want to set the low bat threshold at 1.5 volts so the first launch does not
trigger all the low bat indicators.

If you have 6 cell regs on 4 cell batteries, the test point voltages will be
1.633 and 1.166 respectively. This is two thirds of the original values.

If you have any more questions, contact me off-line.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 9:44 AM
Subject: Rudman reg madness


> Well the Aspire is turning out to work great.  I have pack sag but going
12
> miles or so only depletes the pack down to 125v.  My problem now is with
> some regs uv lights lighting up on discharge.  Is that a sign of a weak
> battery(sag).  (Two 120v packs.  15  8v Delphis each) Also the two
negative
> batteries green lights light up under 9.6v and stay steady to a point and
> then go solid having some control and then no control at taper charge.  I
> had to put a mark I with the mark two to get the voltage down.  A couple
of
> regs won't work.  One with a very long wire pops fuses and one with
shorter
> wires also does this but battery was under voltage at the time.  That was
> strange.  I charged it seperately and it seems to do well with no reg.
Some
> of the batteries don't need regs.  I am sure this is just chance.  I did
> measure the voltages after the fuses and the the sense fuses all register
a
> couple of hundreds less voltage.  The fuses I used for sense have
resistors
> in them.  Is it possible the resistor fuses are confusing the Mark IIs.
> Most of the other regs work.  One positive battery also needs help from a
> mark I.  Lawrence Rhodes....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen it over and over . There's two paths one, new exciting
,different and the other same old same old ,. If they go EV ferryboat than
everything about it will be fun , new and exciting but the other way is just
boring . hope you get your ev boat >
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:54 PM
Subject: EVessel (Was Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared?
Electric sailing an' Stuff.)


> Hi Bob and EV Folk
>
> --- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared?
> > > Hello Lock and EV listers
> > >      My own interest is in a 40 passenger EV ferryboat service.
> > >I'm curious about infrared as an option, rather than heating the
> whole
> > >air volume of the passenger cabin.  Off season (early spring and
> late
> > >fall) I'd only wish to heat the driver and a *few* passengers...
> >
> >Hey! That sounds like fun! Tell us more about this EV, Electric
> >Vessel, how big, fast, EVerybody asks "How fast" how far.
>
> `Kay Bob. you asked for it <smile>
>
> I believe I have posted here before about this, but here's a
> summary/update.
>
> How fast is easy.  Six knots. ie about seven miles per hour - that's
> the speed limit on these waters.
>
> How far?  That's easy too.  One MILE (one way, with a three-four minute
> wait, then one mile return, once an hour.)
>
> This has nothing to do with how fast or how far - those are "givens".
> It's all about EFFICIENCY, EFFECTIVENESS and ECONOMY, given zero
> emissions from the vehicle (vessel, in this case. Land lubbers might
> think of this as a shuttlebus.)
>
> Here's the scenario.
>
> A busy, crowded and badly polluted harbour (water, sound AND air),
> about one mile across and two miles wide, with a lot of commercial
> vessels including water taxis, tour boats, ferries and private power
> and sail boats, about 99.99% of `em burning diesel and gasoline for ICE
> propulsion.
>
> One side of the harbour is a major metropolitan area with a population
> approaching five million persons.  The other side is an island "park"
> with a residential component, several yacht clubs and a marina, plus an
> airport for smallish private and commuter planes.  Hence the taxis and
> ferryboats plying back and forth.
>
> I live on the island, and I keep a sail boat at one of the yacht clubs.
>
> My Club runs a semi-private "tender" (40-persons ferryboat) across this
> one mile, for members and guests.  This boat is on her last legs (paint
> patches the holes in her steel hull), and the Club voted in the spring
> to spend $195,000(Beaverbucks) to buy a new custom-built ferryboat to
> replace her.  If all "goes well" the new boat will ply these waters for
> the next fifty years, and burn over 200,000 litres of diesel fuel in
> the process.
>
> Because I am a dinghy member at the Club, I did not have a vote in
> these proceedings. ("Dinghy" = small craft, no motor or electrics. Dry
> sailed, meaning I keep her on the hard for cheap and launch from a ramp
> vs. a keelboat kept in a slip for much bigger $$$ plus vote.)
>
> When I heard that the Club was going ahead with a new oil-burner..
> well, I saw RED.  I'm f**kin' PISSED.  Six months later and I am still
> F**IN' P*SSED.  (`Scuse my "French", we're bilingual in these parts
> eh?)
>
> And just to put the icing on the cake, the Club secured financing for
> this vessel from  CATERPILLAR - the makers of the diesel engine for the
> boat.
>
> To digress, here's a quote from the Caterpillar site:
>
>  "All Cat electronically controlled engines are 100% compliant with
> International Maritime Organization IMO NOx regulations for the year
> 2000. Even stricter emissions requirements can be easily met by
> reprogramming engine control software. "
>
> In other words, if they're REQUIRED to do so, they can reduce emissions
> from their engines?
>
> In the spring, I moved to a new place on the Island.  It's just an
> Island shed, but it does come with a *high-speed* xDSL connection (and
> six-person hot tub, 2-ppl.Jacuzzi, heated tile floor in the bathroon,
> two Dobermans, etc, etc - don't ask <smile>), and I have "WASTED" my
> whole summer researching ELECTRIC PROPULSION on the web. Got out
> sailing this season exactly twice... :(
>
> In the last six months I have tapped and talked with all manner of EV
> and boating folk, especially skippers that have converted to electric
> or hybrid x+electric tour boats.  Looked at 100% solar designs afloat
> in Europe.  Fleets of hybrid tour boats in Ft.Lauderdale.  Electric
> sightseeing fleets on reservoirs in the US mid-west.  And I have come
> to the conclusion that for a small harbour like this, for a seasonal
> and limited service like this, that electrics are PERFECT for this
> application.  Or at least CHEAPER, MORE RELIABLE, and quieter and
> odor-free and, and, and, and.
>
> More icing on the cake?   Our Federal and State (well, Provincial,
> actually) and Municipal governments have in place a variety of
> "initiatives" (read free grant monies here) in place for projects about
> sustainable transportation and alternative energy projects.
>
> So what I am TRYING to do is package up a proposal for an electric
> vessel that promotes this technology to our boating community.  It
> looks like, with the right "spin", I could have a boat paid for with
> grants, as a promotional device for the boating community.  Just to set
> the scene some more, here's a news release from the US National Academy
> of Sciences:
>
> http://www.planetark.org/avantgo/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=16102
>
> Yet, when I approach these Government folks they take on a
> "doe-in-the-headlights" appearance.
>
> For example, the Province rebates their 8% sales tax if a vehicle runs
> on alt-fuels, including electric.  Up to a maximum of $1,000 of tax
> paid.  For an alt-fuelled bus, there is no cap, and 100% of the sales
> tax is refunded. Yet the legislation makes no provision for a  "bus"
> that's on the water.  I've written our Provincial Minister for the
> Environment requesting his help in amending the legislation and his
> response was. well, he didn't reply. (I've since found out he is by all
> accounts a DICK HEAD... (Hi Chris!))
>
> Our provincial Minister of Finance pointed out that the legislation
> (sales tax rebate) makes no provision for boats. well, Duh.
>
> The worst aspect of all is of course the members of the boating
> community.  Do I have to tell you EV guys this?  You KNOW what I am
> talking about, of course.  The mindset of "tradition" is even more
> entrenched in the boating world.
>
> I'm sorry if this has been so much verbal diarrhea.  I hope that in
> some way I am just reiterating much of what you guys have been tapping
> about here all along, and you will forgive me for this rant.  I could
> go on, but I'll stop for now and return to Bob's comments (yes Bob, I
> blame you for this <grin>)
>
> > After all,
> > the QE 2 is electric too.Well, her AC "traction" motors are supposed
> to be
> > the world's biggest, but no batteries, just Diseasel engines to make
> > power as needed, more the merrier-faster. After all she doesn't hafta
> "Plane
> > off" - like small boats! Guess the miliage is better than her stock
> steam
> > turbine drive she came with, a few retrofits ago.
>
>        Given the needs of her "house power", I suspect that propulsion
> runs a distant second to her needs overall.
>
> >      Of course, think "Displacement hull, like a sailboat. Have had
> > delightful electric launch rides on the CT river,all you hear is the
> > boat slipping through the water and all the #$%^& mechanical RACKET
> from
> > everybody else out there.
>
>        YES. THINK DISPLACEMENT.     None of this planing stuff eh?
> (Apologies to all the EV drag racers out there. This is about slow
> speed, mass transit here)
>
> >Ct runs a couple of small car ferries, mostly by tradition, ferries
> >have been at those locations since colonial times, they hate to break
> >tradition. Of course they keep bankers hours and don't run in winter,
> >but the distances are short, perfect for an EV,
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>      THANK YOU BOB!
>
> >have 2 boats
>
> Holly crap. TWO boats.   Bob, now you are "going overboard" <smile>
>
> >and keep one on charge that yu arent using, switch off EVery few
> "flites" so they both >stayed nice and juicy.
> >Have the hull make contact with the on shore charger when it pushes
> into the slip, and a >good Mechanical connect so it doesn't hafta run,
> like most ferries ,I've seen, running the >engines in gear to hold
> themselves in the slip. What a waste ,all that water foaming at the
> >stern while they run in place, even though it is picturesque.
>
> Hehe. Picturesque is for tourists Bob. F**k'em..  You're thinking
> larger craft too, I guess.  Most of the smallish ferryboats/taxis
> `round these parts are alongside  of every hour.
>
> >Thing only hasta run about 10 minutes per crossing. HMMM?? Buy the
> franchise from the
> > state? They probably would like to get rid of it. They don't make
> money, EVen
> > though they charge buck an a half for a car 75 sense per walk -on.
> State of
> > CT would lose money if they ran the Casinoes, I'm SURE! They don't,
> break for
> > the taxpayers! The "Indians" have that franchise 'round here.Do very
> nicely, thank you!
>
> Hehe <again>. yeah. well, you're right. Just that again, I'm focused on
> smaller harbours where the taxi/ferryboats are ppl-only, not vehicles.
>
>
> > >      I figured the heating could be "zoned" by turning on/off
> several
> > > overhead electric infrareds, as needed.
> >
> >      Howbout painting the Deck over head black or other dark color?
> > Passive solar? For sunny daze. Change to white in summer.
>
>       Good idea I suppose. Thanks!
>
> >Guess you could heat like hell, while uploading and downloading
> > at the pier, via shore power? Hundreds of amps in to a water tank for
> the
> > crossing, with basebored hot water heat in the cabin?
>
>       So, IR would be NG?   (Note, zero response on this (IR) idea from
> others here? &#61516;)
>
> >Whole new ball game, this EVessel  thing, fun thinking about it.
> Guess
> >regen braking is a non endity<g>!
> >Sailya
> >Bob
>
> Hehe (AGAIN!). you kid about braking Bob, but we're talking a heavy
> EVessel here <batts!!!>  Yeah, no regen, but the ability to reverse the
> props and STOP is kinda important.  On the plus side, no transmission
> (gearbox) either with the right electrics, BLDC, etc, as the propeller
> slip should suffice.
>
> Thanks for your interest Bob
>
> I'm at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
>
> Cheers
>
> Lock
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I volunteer as an advisor for the Union-Endicott High School Electric Vehicle Team. You can see their website at http://www.uetigertech.com. Last year we were given a 1994 Solectria Force GT (144V AC) that had not been used for several years and had a completely dead pack(and charger). We have tried to revive the batteries but were not very successful so are now looking into replacements. The current batteries are 12 12Volt GNB(Exide) Champion M83CHP12V27 and from the data sheets we have on them they seem to be fairly good batteries. Unfortunately we have been told by our battery dealer that they are no longer available. So now we are looking for opinions on replacement batteries.
We would like to not have to modify the battery boxes in the car so are looking at batteries with the same physical characteries. The GNB batteries are 12.05"L X 6.85"W X 8.93"H (Group 27?) so we would like to get replacements as close to this size as possible. You can see a sketch of our battery layout at http://www.dynamocomputers.com/~pete/batts.gif as you can see we have a little space to spare between the batteries but not much so would not like to go with a battery that is bigger than the ones we have. The GNB Champion batteries are rated at 110AH. Also we would like the batteries to be sealed since they are in the passenger compartment( although in a sealed battery box).

So does anyone have any battery recommendations?

We have about $2500 budgeted for the new batteries(including shipping). We need to order them soon since we expect our school account to be locked by early next month so they need to be ordered by the end of next week(much sooner than we thought). We are located in Upstate New York if that makes any difference.

Feel free to contact me off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Hatton -- Owner
http://www.dynamocomputers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK folks, what are the odds of this?...the main hole and the three
> perimeter screw holes my 30 year old Japanese car (that's 'metric
everything') had for its
> gas filler pipe, were an exact fit to the diameter of the central body
portion of the
> American made, flange mount style Leviton twist lock and its three
perimeter screw
> holes...they lined right up....exactly! I simply drilled-out the three gas
filler
> perimeter holes a bit larger to accommodate threaded inserts (installed
with a 'Nutcert'
> tool), enlarged the three perimeter screw holes of the Leviton slightly so
that 8 gauge
> stainless steel allen head screws could be used, wired up the twist lock,
dropped it in,
> and tightened the three screws! I don't know about the rest of you, but I
love this kind
> of weird stuff!
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland
>
Betcha it looks stock.  Lawrencer Rhodes...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> it's time I get my heater hooked back up. How far can the voltage be
> pushed? It was run on 120v pack before. Now I have a 176 volt pack.
> Can I push the heater that far? Will it self-limit, or go up in smoke?

The answer is, of course, "who knows"? :-) They weren't designed or
tested for it. If you don't mind sacrificing one to the ghodz, then try
it. Keep a fire extinguisher handy, just in case.

If you can fit in two units, you could wire them each for 240v. Even
though they would each deliver less heat on 176v than they would at
240v, the two of them might still deliver more than a single 120v unit
at 176v. And, they would be operating at less than rated voltage instead
of more.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Oct 2002 at 20:29, Sharkey wrote:

> Personally, I'd rather see people drive SUV's in circles all day than
> listen to people whine about "conserving" petroleum fuels. I think we
> should use them up as quickly as possible, which is the only way to get
> mainstream acceptance of alternative forms of fuel.

The big problem I see with this notion is that petroleum is useful for so 
much more than fuel.  We are dependent on it for lubrication; we make all 
manner of plastics with it; it goes into fertilizer to more or less feed the 
fields that agribusiness tortures.

All these can be replaced, of course, and eventually will have to be.  But 
it's going to be expensive -- not just in financial, but in human terms.  To 
be blunt, I believe that the end of petroleum is going to mean that some 
percentage of the planet's population is going to die.  Without the energy 
input from millenia past, I don't think the world can support anything like 
its present population.  Most likely the mechanism of execution will be 
large-scale warfare related to control of the remaining petroleum, but it 
could also be slow starvation or disease.  Maybe it will be all of the 
above.  

I realize that humanity is pathologically foolish and short-sighted, and 
probably won't do anything about this until it's too late.  But I keep 
hoping.  And indeed there are at least a few encouraging signs.  Not here in 
the US, unfortunately; but some forward-looking governments are making an 
effort.  In Denmark, for example, they are working to develop wind as a 
primary energy source.

Speaking of flames: as I see it, encouraging consumption of oil to hasten 
development of alternatives is like setting fire to your house to force 
yourself to clean it.  


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Oct 2002 at 0:04, Pete Hatton wrote:

> So does anyone have any battery recommendations?

You're right, they're group 27 size.  

For flooded batteries, try Trojan 27TMH or US Battery 27TMX.  

For sealed batteries, Solectria recommends (or at least used to) East Penn 
8G27.  You will need to send your charger to Solectria to be reconfigured 
for a different charge profile to use these.  They cost around $130-150 
each, IIRC.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David

 --- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> To be blunt, I believe that the end of petroleum is going to mean
that
> some percentage of the planet's population is going to die.  Without
> the energy input from millenia past, I don't think the world can 
> support anything like its present population.

Chin up David <smile>

Here's a quote from the US National Renewable Energy Lab of the DoE:

The oceans cover a little more than 70 percent of the Earth's surface.
This makes them the world's largest solar energy collector and energy
storage system. On an average day, 60 million square kilometers (23
million square miles) of tropical seas absorb an amount of solar
radiation equal in heat content to about 250 billion barrels of oil. If
less than one-tenth of one percent of this stored solar energy could be
converted into electric power, it would supply more than 20 times the
total amount of electricity consumed in the United States on any
given day. 

This and more from:

http://www.nrel.gov/otec/what.html

See also the World Energy Council at:
http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/edc/countries/UnitedStatesAmerica.asp

Cheers

Lock


______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So what is needed is the equivalent of a charging cradle for the car.  Just
park the car some place close and a robot comes out of the wall, or drops
from the ceiling and plugs the car in.  That kind of tech is built into kids
toys now days, it just needs to be refined some.  That would make electric
more convenient then a gas car.  Too get people to change you need to give
them an alternative that is better then what they are currently using.
Better means less expensive, faster, more power, longer range, more
convenient, more comfortable.  Cleaner and less pollution will not matter to
many until they personally experience it (and recognize the reason) or the
government and other leading groups begin to present a consistent factual
picture of what is going on.  Without the extreme our way is the only way
and if you are not with us you are the enemy view that some environmental
groups seem to have.  That's not aimed at Victor or anyone on the list, just
a personal opinion I have of some of the groups.
We are limited by batteries on range, and power so we need to compete where
it is possible.

Andre' B.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov

Just tell them an EV, as rechargeable appliance, is no different
from a cell phone. This people have no problem popping their
phones in the charging cradle *every* night and forget about it.
So what's the issue? (not question to you, suggested question to
them).

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lesley Walker wrote:

> So I've got this 1987 Nissan Bluebird that I've been driving 
> for years, but it's getting on a bit - got some rust, done 
> 270,000km (~170,00 miles). It also (of course) uses too much gas.
> 
> So I'm looking to buy a "new" car for driving around in, and 
> perhaps eventually converting.  The one I'm looking at 
> seriously right now is a 1998 Fiat Punto.  I like the styling 
> and the colour (metallic blue) but there are many things 
> wrong with it that I wouldn't have thought would be wrong 
> with a car that's only four years old so I could end up 
> getting something else.
> 
> The Plan, Part 1: I'm thinking about keeping the Bluebird and 
> making it a "proof of concept" EV, as a training project for 
> making a "nice" conversion eventually.  I still like the car 
> even though it's getting old. As a "proof of concept" EV it 
> wouldn't have to get me to work every day (though it would be 
> nice if it could).  It's allowed to look like a "rolling 
> science project".  Batteries will be lead-acid, probably flooded.

<snip>

> Relevant information about the Bluebird:
> * 1987 "U11" model (possibly also known as, or similar to, a 
> Nissan Stanza)
> * official curb weight - the original 1983 model was 1090kg (2400lb)
> * dimensions and picture of the 1983 model here: 
http://db.motorshow.or.jp/cgi-bin/car_history/detail.pl?style=en&id=1983
018
> * front-wheel drive
> * auto - but I'm working on the theory of throwing out the
transmission
>   and using 2 motors with belt drive straight onto the bits that would
>   normally be driven from the transmission (sorry, I don't know what
>   they're called)
> * power-assisted brakes
> * power-assisted steering
> * rust - it isn't in any structural places yet, and I could probably
>   get it taken out if wanted to spend a few bucks on it.  Have already
>   had rust along top edge of windscreen taken out, remainder is at the
>   back.
> * brakes - just about due for their 2nd overhaul if I was going to
keep
>   driving it as is.
> * It's got a fairly big engine bay, enough room for lots of batteries
in
>   both the engine bay and the boot (trunk).

Hi Lesley,

I think your decision should be based on your assessment of your ability
to do a good conversion the first time, vs. how much you're willing to
invest in learning.

I'm building my LeSled with the assumption it will be a pretty nice EV,
even though I'm very new at this.  I know there will be some things I'd
do differently given a second chance, but I'm betting it will be my main
EV for many years to come.  I can only do that because I've messed
around with cars most of my life.  I have a pretty clear understanding
of what I can or cannot do.

Even if you don't have the direct personal experience to pull it off,
you might have access to a good consultant or two and a good sense of
what's doable and what's not.  That's another scenario that would lead
me to go for the gold on my first try.  Mike Hoskinson seems to be
taking this approach.  (see http://www.gghc.ca/ev/.)  He's nothing if
not bold - building his first conversion from a Citroen DS19(!) with all
its odd hydraulics, and throwing in a sepex(?) drivetrain as an added
challenge.  And making good progress on it, the last I heard.

The difficulty I see in your proof of concept idea is that you might end
up with a *lot* of time sunk in a car that's *almost* good enough to
keep.  But not quite, and it might be near impossible to get rid of.
I'm not suggesting your work would make it unsellable, only that its
mileage and rust would lead a buyer to look elsewhere.  (The rust that
has been "taken out" could very well come back, depending on how it was
repaired.)

Of course you could also plan on a really quick-and-dirty Bluebird
conversion.  Then recover the EV parts from it when you're done learning
and simply junk it.

Time and ability.  How much do you have of each?

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,

Thanks for posting this. 0-60 Mph in about 13 seconds. I hope we will be
able to beat that!<G>.

Other entertaining parts. Range around 120 miles. Start-up time 45 minutes.
Weight almost 3 tons.

This fuel cell vehicle has a little way to go before 'market acceptence'.

Cliff

www.ProEV.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 PM
Subject: For jeep fans (was: Re: Electric Jeep?)


> Jeep fans,
>
> You can download an article about Jeep Commander Built by
> Daimler-Chrysler. This one is FC vehicle, and power train
> consists of two Siemens 1PV5134WS20 motors and integrated
> Simovert inverters - exactly the same motors and similar
> inverters I supplied to Cliff Rassweiler for his electric Imp
> project (ProEv.com). Arrangement is the same too - Commander has
> both front and rear drive shafts driven by own AC motor,
> so 2 motors and 2 inverters on board.
>
> I wonder how the two will compare. Cliff's Subaru Impenza
> conversion should definitely outperform this heavy beast
> on the oval track...
>
> Subaru specs: http://www.proev.com/P1Spec.htm
> Jeep Commander article: http://www.metricmind.com/misc/jeep_hev.pdf
>
> Enjoy all,
>
> Victor
>
>
>
> Vince wrote:
> >
> > David wrote:
> >
> > > I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
> > > neat conversion.
> >
> > Do you mean a fiberglass Jeep body or an alternative fiberglass body ? I
have an interest in converting a 4WD like a Jeep or
> > Sidekick/Tracker, but the soft tops leak like a sieve and are difficult
to heat and I don't like the hardtop versions. The only fiberglass
> > bodies I've seen still use some sort of soft top.
> >
> > Vince
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I would never convert any car that has any rust.  Period.  You're going to 
put an extra half-ton or so of mass into this body (batteries) and any 
weakness in it is going to return to bite you in the bum.

I suppose it's OK if you plan to do a 100% restoration, but that doesn't 
mean patching the rust, it means replacing all the rusted components -- 
which is likely to entail a lot of work.

Conversion is hundreds of hours already, and often a lot of money.   Even 
for your first one, it makes sense to start with the most solid glider you 
can afford.  It doesn't have to be expensive -- just something in decent 
shape, and which you're willing to live with for a while.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all     
   
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.      
       
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =        
 
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion        
       
Est. 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion  
                                -- Harper's Index, April 2002                    
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