EV Digest 2433

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Individual Battery Bar Graphs
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by Matthew Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) EV pricing article
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Battery pack design for "ultra-light" EV
        by "Justin Southam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: Battery pack design for "ultra-light" EV
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Battery pack design for "ultra-light" EV
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Battery pack design for "ultra-light" EV
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Fixed Vacuum Pump was (vacuum dummy light)
        by "Mander, Art" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Evercel MB80 price
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 12) Re: Individual Battery Bar Graphs
        by Brendan Kirby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Evercel MB80 price
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 14) Re: Evercel MB80 price
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 15) Very low cost vac indicator
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Batteries for go-kart
        by "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Slew of Questions
        by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) OT "What would Jesus Drive"
        by "Steven S. Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: "Do It Right the First Time"
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: "Do It Right the First Time"
        by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Useful link
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have any Pics. or diagrams of what you did?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brendan Kirby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:02 PM
Subject: Individual Battery Bar Graphs


> My current battery pack is showing signs of premature failure after only
18
> months. So I built a set of 20 expanded scale LED bar graph battery
> monitors to monitor each battery under operating conditions. I finally
> finished the installation last night. It seems to be working well and
> should help me extend the life of the pack. It is very easy to see if a
few
> batteries are performing differently than the others. A bit of a pain to
> build and install but I still think I recommend the idea.
>
> Brendan Kirby
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, November 21, 2002, at 11:41 AM, Andre Blanchard wrote:
I think you are going to want to check the power on the treadmill motors.
Every treadmill motor I have looked at was 90 or 110 volts and about 6 amps
and I do not think they would handle that for very long. That is less then
1 HP and you need a high voltage pack to get it on 24 volts you will be
lucky to move.
Ok, so that's two votes against the treadmill motors. What kind of motor should I be looking for? For simplicity's sake, if I just short my batteries to the motor, what kind of amperage will I really be looking at with my two battery options? (24V YT and 144V NiMH)

Car starter motors have been used for inexpensive go-karts with just a
contactor for a speed control (GO / NoGO). You can add a series resistor
for softer starts with a second or more contactor/s to short out the
resistor/s for a little better control. Heavy gage steel wire will work for
a resistor, coil it around something that will not burn and mount it where
it can get some air but you can not accidentally touch it.
The starter motor will get hot but usually the batteries will be dead before
it is too hot.
That's an interesting idea, but is a small starter motor really going to be better than one of those big treadmill motors?

Here's another question that I've got for you guys. Why isn't the resistance of motors ever listed? I know that its probably a changing value for different RPM, but that would sure help a newbie like me figure out what I want to be doing with this stuff.

Later,

Matt
--
If you're reading this, chances are your either:
A. A Honda freak, just like me.
'01 M.C. Blue Insight 5 spd. #1898, 57.1 LMPG @ 24,900 mi.
B. A Mac Addict, just like me.
Dual-1GHz PowerMac G4, iBook 800MHz 12.1"
or
C. An EV freak, just like me!
:-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,

for those interested about EV marketing, thorough research:

http://www.greencars.org/pdf/gcipricing.pdf

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 144 volts yes yes yes ! forget the treadmill motor we want power. how 
> about
> two skill saw motors one on each wheel or If you got the live axel 
> setup
> (this was just becoming popular at my time and put my 4th cart on top 
> for a
>> while) have them right to that . DCP controller ( could use it in a car
>> later) I may be getting carried away here. If you have an EV you 
>> could dump
>> charge it to
>
>So the treadmill motor won't do what I want? (That being SPEED!!!!)
>

Ignore those infidels, they don't know what they are talking about. ;)
The 2hp motors that ASAS has should work ok and are a far cheaper option
than the skill saws.  The Leeson motors are rated for 14 amps whereas skill
saws are only rated for 10-12 amps.  Plus the Leeson treadmill motors are
more efficient than skill saw motors (by as much as 20%)
Of course skill saws use series wound motor so they 'might' have more torque
off the line.  I'm saying 'might' because I think the Leeson motor actually
have a higher stall current, but I don't know.

>What do you mean by "skill saw motors"?
They are talking about ordinary circular saws, the hand held kind.  Skill
saw is a brand name like Craftsman, etc.

>My Go-Kart has a solid rear axle, driven by a chain. Is that what you 
>mean by live axle? With this setup I think that only one motor is the 
>way to go.

One motor will work and might have a pretty good top end.  To get decent
power out of the Leeson motor you will want a fairly high voltage.  You
could run 36V and gear it for a top speed of around 30 mph, but acceleration
will be lethargic (speaking from experience here).  48V-60V is much better.
120V-144V is possible but you will need a controller to keep the current
down or you will demagnetize the motor.

144V worth of 6.5AH NiMH batteries should give you 15-20 minutes of really
fast action.

Series/parallel controllers (relays) sound good on paper and work great, but
if you have to buy the relays it will probably be cheaper to buy a PWM
controller.  High voltage high current DC relays aren't cheap.  
You can probably pick up a rebuilt Curtis 72V for less than $300, less than
$200 if you only want 36-48V.

The relay idea is workable with cheap relays (like 70amp 24V truck relays)
but you'd spend all your time watching amp and volt meters to make sure you
weren't trying something that would weld the relays that you wouldn't have
any time to enjoy the ride (if you didn't run into something first 'cause
your watching the meters instead of your driving)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lesley, way cool, check here for LM200 graphs 
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=521&product_id=1611

I'm not familiar with the Trojan battery you mentioned. AGM's such as the YT are acid 
starved so have a lower energy density than, for example, flooded cell batteries. 
Hawker Genesis batteries are available here but are AGM's like the YT's. I'd clarify 
the competitions definition of sealed then find the wettest battery that meets it :-) 
I'm not sure how other listers feel about this one but remember that even SLI 
(ordinary car batteries) will generally be good for 12-20 deep cycles, so don't rule 
them out completely. All batteries increase there capacity over the first 20 or so 
cycles. With SLI its then a fine line between cycling to increase capacity and 
shortening their already short lifespan. Also the solar car raced by a Hamilton couple 
in the 92 Australian event was using 12v 16Ah gel cell batteries(though at much higher 
pack voltage) from memory. I'm not sure where they fit in terms of energy density, 
between AGM and flooded I'm guessing.

Let me know if I can help. Maybe some video of APS or NEDRA events to inspire the 
students.

Justin


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 21/11/02 18:25:51 >>>
Hi all,
I've recently started helping out a high school team that's
planning to participate in the 2004 Sunrace in Australia.
http://www.sunrace.com.au/ 
Since I haven't done this before I'd like listers to
double-check my thinking on the battery pack design.

They're building a vehicle for the ultra-light EV category.
The current plan is that they'll be running a Lynch 48v motor
with a Curtis 1209b controller.  These were chosen because
somebody had them going spare.  I've posted pictures and the
nameplate data on my web page at
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw/solarcar.html 

The rules:
They're allowed a total of three battery packs, each of which
can be used once per day.  Each pack is limited to 2500 Wh and
62.5kg, and the batteries must be sealed.  The rules on the
website are not entirely clear, but I believe the permitted Wh
capacity is based on the manufacturer's stated C/20 capacity.
The pack is allowed to be overweight by up to 5% or half a
battery, whichever is less.

The motor:
It's a Lynch Motor Company LM200, rated for 48v, 190A and 8kW.
QUESTION: does anyone on the list happen to have a set of
performance graphs for a Lynch LM200 motor?  There are graphs
on the manufacturer's web page http://www.lemcoltd.com/graphs2.htm 
but they are for a later version of the motor.  (I realise I
could write to them and ask, I just thought I'd ask here first.)

The pack:
Given that we have a 48v motor, I think we need a 48v pack, or
maybe we should go higher?  The controller will let us go up to
72v. The motor manufacturer has a performance graph for 60v
operation, but, as noted above, this is for a later version of
the motor, and also it says "not recommended except for
competition" - and I don't think an endurance race is the kind
of competition they mean.

Batteries:
The sealed batteries that I know about (and I believe I should
be able to get them in this country) are the Trojan SG series
and of course Optima Yellow-Tops.  But YTs are too big - we
couldn't make a 48v pack out of them without breaking the size
limits. The Trojan SG50s would make a 48v pack of exactly the
right weight and capacity, so they would seem to be the way to go.
QUESTION: (mainly for New Zealand and Australian listers) Are
there any other sealed batteries the team should consider?

Charging:
At the end of any given day they should find themselves with up to 3
48v packs to charge (I suppose ideally they should use up all three
to max DOD on the longest day, otherwise the pack should be smaller).
If the state of all three is similar enough, they could be hooked
together either in series or parallel and all charged at the same
time.  If one pack is in a radically different state to the others
it will have to be managed separately.
QUESTION: If I order a PFC20 and it arrives soon enough, is this a job
it can do?  i.e. can it be throttled back enough to charge just one of
these small packs on its own?  Or failing that is it a good fit for
charging all three packs at once?
The reason I'm thinking this way is, I'll need a charger for own EV
project sooner or later, and I could just buy it early and lend it
to the team.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
     --- James R. Healey, USA Today


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Okay, My Sparrow is now officially not-useable for my commute.
There are 2 factors that have come together to cause this.
A) My YT's seem to be down to 85-90% of their original capacity.
B) The Sparrow is drawing a little more power after the latest round of repairs.

Remember that my normal commute sucked about 5KWH out of the 13 YT pack. The pack was definitely ageing fast, and was getting marginal before the latest round of repairs.
After replacing the rear axle bearing (and lots of other small changes), the car now draws about 5 to 8% more power than it used to.
And yes, I have checked the tire pressure, brake dragging, etc.... I've been unable to figure out just where all this power is going. I did upgrade the EMeter to have RS-232 (which I haven't been able to get to work yet!), and there is a chance that it's not reading exactly the same as the old one.
I do know that getting to work with my pack in it's current condition is iffy. When I last tried, the voltage started plummeting about 3 miles short of work. I had to stop and spend 1/2 hour charging from a friendly business.

So, I'm now seriously looking into Evercel MB80's. Last quote was for $294 ea, probably available in mid-late december.

I'm taking bids for my YT pack. Slightly abused, but probably have at least 80% of capacity left in them.

--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> > I've recently started helping out a high school team that's
> > planning to participate in the 2004 Sunrace in Australia.
> > http://www.sunrace.com.au/
> 
> Great! What a fascinating project that will be!

It'll also be a great "apprenticeship" for me before I do my
conversion.

> The main drawback of the Curtis is that it doesn't do regen
> (which might have helped range).

Australia's mainly flat anyway.  :-)
Okay, I'm sure there will be some hills along the way, but on
the whole I think not having regen is probably not a show-stopper.

> Odd rules.

I thought so, although my interpretation could be at fault.
They are not the easiest set of rules to read.

> I would think that lead-acid batteries would be 
> non-competitive.

I forgot to mention, cars using other battery technologies have
to carry ballast to take the pack weight up to its lead-acid
equivalent.  So the main advantages of exotic technologies are
cancelled out.  And yes, we probably are on a tight budget, not
that I know this for sure but the project will be reliant on
fundraising and sponsorship.

> Three YTs are 59.3kg; pretty close to the 62.5kg limit. 36v is not an
> unreasonable voltage. Also, nothing says you can't saw a 
> single cell off a YT,

I hadn't thought of that!  I've also found that seven 6v Optimas
would be within spec (1% overweight), although the total nominal
capacity would be a bit on the low side at 2100 Wh.

> or use a boost converter to raise the voltage.

As in a DC-DC converter?  It would add complexity and some weight,
but worth bearing in mind.

> > Are there any other sealed batteries the team should consider?
> 
> Stupid question; do they have to be rechargeable? :-) It is 
> much cheaper and easier to get high-capacity primary batteries.

Not a stupid question at all, but as far as I can tell, yes they
do.  The rule says "Solarcar batteries must be rechargeable sealed
lead/acid type or ballasted equivalent..."  It doesn't specifically
say that this applies to the EV classes, but since there is no other
equivalent requirement listed, I think it must be that they intend
the word Solarcar" to mean the entire event.

Uh-oh. I just found another place in the rules, where they say the
pack can be up to 80kg for single-seater EVs but doesn't say what
the provisions are for non-PbA.  I think I'm going to have to ask
for clarification.

> Given that it's for a race, the smartest charger could well 
> be a person with a lot of knowledge, a variac, and some meters.

.. and willing to sit up half the night babysitting batteries every
night for a week.  I'd like to avoid actually planning for sleepless
nights.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
     --- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:04 PM 11/22/2002 +1300, Walker, Lesley R stated:
> Three YTs are 59.3kg; pretty close to the 62.5kg limit. 36v is not an
> unreasonable voltage. Also, nothing says you can't saw a
> single cell off a YT,

I hadn't thought of that!  I've also found that seven 6v Optimas
would be within spec (1% overweight), although the total nominal
capacity would be a bit on the low side at 2100 Wh.
Hmm, have you thought of using Evercel NiZi batteries. Ballast them to the correct weight. The possible advantage here is that they have been known to supply more than their rated power.... (So if you can arrange a 2500Wh pack that actually delivers 3000Wh.... :-)

--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> Hmm, have you thought of using Evercel NiZi batteries.  

Given what I've been reading on the list about the difficulty of
actually getting them, I think that's possibly going to be in the
"too hard" basket.  But we do have over a year to go and I'm
certainly paying attention to discussions on the list so if the
supply opens up in that time we can consider it.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
     --- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hastings was looking for a vacuum sensor switch to alarm for low brake
boost.  Here is an idea for a low cost alternative:  The vacuum reservoir in
my EV Rabbit is built from two large galvanized coffee cans soldered
together in the middle.  The ends pull in almost a " under vacuum.  It
wouldn't be hard to mount a microswitch on a bracket across the end of the
reservoir and use the deformation to actuate the switch.

Haven't actually done this -- acquired a rather costly Square D vacuum
switch before the idea gelled.  The Square D has a small threaded rod on the
microswitch plunger to adjust the free-play (and thus the vacuum setting).
For a microswitch on the reservoir it may be easier to adjust the position
of the entire switch versus the length of the plunger.  Adjusting the Square
D switch is a tricky trial and error operation.    
 
Good luck, Art Mander, Denver    


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so what is the correct current price for these batteries.
Who is anyone getting together for a group quantity buy ?
My Electric Beetle needs a new set after 9.5 years of Trojan T-145's.
What are the physical dimensions and weight of the Ni-Zn batteries ?

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:51:20 -0800 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> John,
> 
> No, the price actually appears to be going down.
> 
> Your posting on 11/12 showed "pallet" quantity prices as higher than 
> these
> new individual pricing:
> 
> TYPE        11/12p     11/18i
> MB100-12     $370       $350
> MB80-12      $310       $294
> MB50-12      $185       $175
> MB40-12      $119       $133
> MB15-12      $ 53
> 
> So it's actually looking more encouraging. Your potential order cost 
> (less
> shipping, etc) has gone down from a group buy price of $4030 to 
> buying just
> by yourself for $3822 (5-6% price reduction).
> 
> -Ed
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Lussmyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 3:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Evercel MB80 price
> 
> 
> Well, it looks like their prices are going up as they get closer to 
> reality.
> I just called Evercell today, and was told:
> Availability: Late December
> Price:        MB40    $133
>       MB50    $175
>       MB80    $294
>       MB100   $350
> No quantity price breaks until the 100+ unit mark.
> 
> I just may place an order for 13 of the MB80's, as I am now in the 
> situation where my YT's won't quite get me to work.  (i.e. they are 
> probably down to 85% of new capacity.)
> 
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phil Bardsley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I called the Evercel office in MA a couple days ago and was quoted a
> price for the MB80 of $240 each for quantities of 20 or more. They
> wouldn't tell me when the batteries would be available. I didn't ask
> about shipping, since that price was a show stopper for me. I'm 
> getting
> Optimas instead.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
> 
> 


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I tried to take a picture of the display but it did not come out well. I will try again. The display is pretty bright and the truck interior is black.

I used 20 LM3914 Dot/Bar display drivers and 20 10-segment LED bar graphs. I mounted the LEDs against each other in a row just under the dash on the passengers side. The LM3914s are on a horizontal board behind the LEDs. The graphical nature of the display is such that it does not appear to be a problem that it is not directly in the drivers line of site. In fact, it may be an advantage that it is a bit off to the side. I don't think this provides the sort of information that is needed for immediate driving like speed, battery current, or overall voltage. You do notice very quickly from a peripheral view if a single battery is out of line from the rest.

Brendan

At 12:11 PM 11/21/02 -0800, you wrote:

So how did you build these?
James


Do you have any Pics. or diagrams of what you did?

>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to ask if the battery price includes the charger for each
battery !!!!!!!!!!

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:00:33 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Ok, so what is the correct current price for these batteries.
> Who is anyone getting together for a group quantity buy ?
> My Electric Beetle needs a new set after 9.5 years of Trojan 
> T-145's.
> What are the physical dimensions and weight of the Ni-Zn batteries ?


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evercell battery warranty ?????????

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:15:39 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I forgot to ask if the battery price includes the charger for each 
> battery !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:00:33 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > Ok, so what is the correct current price for these batteries.
> > Who is anyone getting together for a group quantity buy ?
> > My Electric Beetle needs a new set after 9.5 years of Trojan 
> > T-145's.
> > What are the physical dimensions and weight of the Ni-Zn batteries 
> ?


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For that matter why not mount the tank in the cabin and have one side
closed by any of those "tamper evident" lids (for food) which pop up 
when a sealed can is opened for the first time. This way as vacuum 
achieves needed level you hear a loud POP indicating "OK to drive".

If the vac is lost, you'll hear another pop (perhaps different tone
one) - time to check the pump...

We already have "idiot light" term, now there is "idiot sound"...

A few more enhancements and only idiots would be willing to drive
these cars.

No offense meant to anyone. I myself love ingenuity too :-D

Victor


"Mander, Art" wrote:
> 
> Mark Hastings was looking for a vacuum sensor switch to alarm for low brake
> boost.  Here is an idea for a low cost alternative:  The vacuum reservoir in
> my EV Rabbit is built from two large galvanized coffee cans soldered
> together in the middle.  The ends pull in almost a " under vacuum.  It
> wouldn't be hard to mount a microswitch on a bracket across the end of the
> reservoir and use the deformation to actuate the switch.
> 
> Haven't actually done this -- acquired a rather costly Square D vacuum
> switch before the idea gelled.  The Square D has a small threaded rod on the
> microswitch plunger to adjust the free-play (and thus the vacuum setting).
> For a microswitch on the reservoir it may be easier to adjust the position
> of the entire switch versus the length of the plunger.  Adjusting the Square
> D switch is a tricky trial and error operation.
> 
> Good luck, Art Mander, Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I'm going to take a gamble and just build it and see what works and
what doesn't.
I could probably make some video snippets for you at various stages of
construction/use. I have a digital video camera.

Dean

----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: Batteries for go-kart


> Steve Clunn wrote
> Here is something I've been thinking and wondering about.  I have noticed
> that the car weight/bat weight formula works very will for cars/trucks ,
> (almost seem to work too well as most stuff never turns out like I
figure )
> so if you had 120lbs of bats in a 360 go kart 1/3 bar ratio this would
mean
> 45mphs for about 60 miles (off the top of my head) . What I am wondering
is
> that as you get smaller in weight/power/wheel size do the miles get
> "smaller" also?  What I am saying here is a set up that's 1/10 the size of
a
> car my have miles that are 1/10 the size ( I don't believe this is the
case
> as I'm sure your cart will go more that 6 miles but maybe 1/2). Here is
what
> got me wondering about this  . The little R/C cars that the kids play with
> have a 1/3 bat/car ratio but they won't perform any were near what a ev
car
> will do .( I'm told 15 minits of run ) .Now this is far down the scale .
Let
> go the other way how about a bus with 1/3 ratio 21 ton car / 7 ton of bats
> . My feeling is that it would go much further than the car (with same
ratio)
> just a feeling but maybe its a longer mile for the bus and a smaller mile
> for the R/C toy. ?? I am wondering what the experts think here?  What kind
> of motor/ controller are you going to use and how fast (mphs) do you want
to
> go .
>  remember your fork lift is almost the same voltage and only uses 250 amps
> (I'll bet more that 10 time the weight to)
>  ( I would love some video of your project  for my evtv program as
Electric
> go carts are a good way to get into EV's )
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> WWW.grassrootsev.com
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 1:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Batteries for go-kart
>
>
> > Hi Steve, I am leaning more towards distance because when you take the
> cart
> > to a parking lot for a zoom around you don't want it to go flat too
> quickly!
> > The trouble is I have no idea how many amps I will be drawing, basically
> > it's a "put it together and see what happens" thing. It would help to
know
> > how many amps eh :) Is there an easy way to estimate this? Currently I'm
> > guessing it will draw about 50 or so amps at cruising speed?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Dean
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: Batteries for go-kart
> >
> >
> > > that a deal for 33 $ are you going for power or distance .  those bats
> > sound
> > > like distance how many amps will you be pulling?
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 4:21 AM
> > > Subject: Batteries for go-kart
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello! I'm still working (or procrastinating) on my electric
go-kart.
> I
> > > need
> > > > some batteries for it. The drive is a 48V forklift hydraulic motor
> with
> > > > 250amp PWM controller. I found some SLA batteries that I can get
> fairly
> > > > cheaply (33USD each). They are Remco RM12-60XU batteries, the specs
> can
> > be
> > > > viewed here:
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/GeneralManager?&catalog_id=2000000003844&d
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
esign=clean&language=en&action=GetSupplier&page=supplier/ProductDetail&suppl
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
ier_id=6008800544275&product_id=8818842745&action=GetProduct&action=GetPoint
> > > > &point_id=3000000149745
> > > > (Sorry for the huge link)
> > > >
> > > > Most important info is:
> > > > Nominal voltage: 12
> > > > Nominal capacity: 60 Ah (20 hours rate)
> > > > Dimensions: 227L x 136W x 205H mm
> > > > Weight: approx 18.5 kg
> > > > Capacity characteristics
> > > > Cut off voltage: 20 hours rate (3A); 60 Ah
> > > > 1.75 v/c@ 25 degree Celsius: 10 hours rate (5.4A); 54 Ah
> > > > 1.70 v/c: 5 hours rate (10.2A); 51 Ah
> > > > 1.55 v/c: 1 hour rate (35A); 35 Ah
> > > > 1.67 v/c: 15 min rate (113A); 28.25 Ah
> > > > Charge voltage (constant):
> > > > Bloc 13.5 to 13.8 float; 2.25 to 2.30 per cell
> > > > Bloc 14.4 to 14.7 cycle; 2.40 to 2.45 per cell
> > > > Discharge current amps (5 seconds maximum): 550
> > > > Discharge current amps (maximum continuous): 250
> > > > Maximum charge current: 18 A
> > > > Approx final charge current (2.25v/c float): 0.13 (130mA)
> > > > Approx final charge current (2.45v/c cycle): 0.65 (650 mA)
> > > >
> > > > These batteries are about the heaviest that I am willing to add to
the
> > > kart
> > > > at a total of 74kg. The whole thing would probably weigh around
100kg
> > with
> > > > the batteries and no driver. This is my first EV so there is
something
> > > > glaring wrong with my choice of batteries please inform me :). I am
> > > > basically asking for people's opinion here. I worried that they
might
> be
> > > too
> > > > heavy but the range isn't going to be overly good even with these
> > > batteries,
> > > > is it?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks very much for any advice
> > > > Dean
> > > >
> > > > PS
> > > > I can also get a 50Ah battery that weighs around 14.8kg but I can't
> seem
> > > to
> > > > get and decent specs for it. Here's its huge link:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/GeneralManager?&catalog_id=2000000003844&d
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
esign=clean&language=en&action=GetSupplier&page=supplier/ProductDetail&suppl
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
ier_id=6008802381254&product_id=8821682922&action=GetProduct&action=GetPoint
> > > > &point_id=3000000149745
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hey everybody, long time no speak. Got a couple questions:
-Has anyone implemented a pack from Thundersky yet?
-Opinions on charging them?
-Would there be any pitfall to installing an Evercell pack in a commercial EV?
-Do people think there is a market for a Corvette level commercial EV in todays marketplace?
-Possibly if its a parallel hybrid (running on say, propane or CNG)

Thanks guys.

-Sam Harper
"The ever questioning Georgia State student"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Generally, I am way against mixing religion, and technology, or even
ecology... ( even though the native Americans have been doing it for
centuries....     But I have often said
round Seattle, and at our SEVA meetings,   that " I would dance with the
devil himself to help get ONE MORE  E.V.  on the road"
So....   I guess to keep things balanced....   I would talk the "The
Lord" to help get another EV on the road as well.

I suggest, those of similar persuasion get in touch with these well
meaning folk, and let them know that there is a 'grass roots' group
called the EAA and that they have been working towards these same goals
for almost 30 years or more.... I.M.H.O.

--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 396-9189
Eve:  206 524-1351
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web:     http://slough1.home.mindspring.com/seva.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matthew Muelver wrote:
> Ok, so that's two votes against the treadmill motors.  What kind of
> motor should I be looking for?

I agree; most of the treadmill motors I've seen would be useless for a
go-kart. They are too poorly built, and would quickly fail.

A car starter motor would also quickly fail, but it would be fun while
it lasted!

> For simplicity's sake, if I just short my batteries to the motor,
> what kind of amperage will I really be looking at with my two battery
> options? (24V YT and 144V NiMH)

Into a treadmill motor: The 24v YTs would barely produce enough torque
to move the go-kart. The 144v Nimh pack would deliver 50+ amps and
probably burn out a fuse or wire in the pack. If you managed to get the
motor started, it would run pretty fast. But when you put a load on the
motor, *then* it would blow a fuse or wire in the pack, or burn up the
motor.

Into a car starter motor: The 24v YTs would give you a wild and powerful
ride, similar to a go-kart with a lawnmower engine and an on/off
throttle. The motor would last a dozen hours or so and then be worn out.

My recommendation would be to use a golf cart motor. It may take some
work to find one that comes with bearings at both ends; most use the
golf cart's differential to provide the bearing at one end.

> Here's another question that I've got for you guys.  Why isn't the
> resistance of motors ever listed?

It is, once you can lay hands on the actual data sheet for the motor.
Motors in the sizes you are interested in have resistances well under
0.1 ohms.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
><snip> EV Safety with the use of Anderson SBX connectors, the
> First Inertia switch, dual contactors, and more.

erm, didn't Seth's accident/test show that the inertia switch didn't do
anything? Has anyone actually shown the thing to work in real life?

(mind you I'm glad Seth did everything he could to make his truck safe
and as result is still here today, but I do wonder about this particular
item)

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Ok, so that's two votes against the treadmill motors.  What kind of
> > motor should I be looking for?
> 
> I agree; most of the treadmill motors I've seen would be useless for a
> go-kart. They are too poorly built, and would quickly fail.

These Leeson motors aren't too bad.

> Into a treadmill motor: The 24v YTs would barely produce enough torque
> to move the go-kart.

Well, if you geared it down enough...naw you're right.  At 24V the stall
torque and the continuous torque are the same.  Geared down enough it
will move, but then it won't go very fast.  Just not enough power.

> The 144v Nimh pack would deliver 50+ amps and
> probably burn out a fuse or wire in the pack. If you managed to get the

I'd bet 144V would cause the motor to draw 150 amps or more at stall
(assuming your batteries could source that much).  In addition to
melting wires, etc. there is also the possibility of demagnetizing the
"permanent" magnets.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
steve clunn wrote

I was thinking with that bat pack (144v) you could have a very fast cart .
There are some 6.7" adc motors in the trader and pretty cheep .  is that
pack about 140 lbs ?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Muelver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas



>
> What do you mean by "skill saw motors"?  Any idea where to get them?
> My Go-Kart has a solid rear axle, driven by a chain.  Is that what you
> mean by live axle?  With this setup I think that only one motor is the
> way to go.

this is the electricle saw that carpenters use and they are a $10 fle market
item here in fl .People throw them out all the time and I have to save them
becuse the motors loook so nice ,. If you go that way I could send you 1
(but would be cheaper to get one at a yard sale ect  s+h)  they rate them at
2 hp but I think they figure hp by how much power they use not how muck they
put out,  and there hi rpm even with the little gear box thats part of the
motor there still 4000 rpm output. probable not hi proformers but the 6.7
adc would be.

> Yeah, a DCP.  How about a Raptor 1200?  Coming back to reality.....

I know but with out some kind of controller you won't be converting voltes
into amps ( as the controllers do ) and the amps out of the batteries will
be the same as into motor (no transformer action )

> This is going to be a budget project.  I've recently acquired the
> batteries, and since I've already got the go-kart I'd like to spend no
> more than $100-$150 to finish the deal.  If that means a $100 motor and
> a resistive controller, then I guess that's what I'll do.

we are going from a very very fast cart to somthing the kids will be riding
on it the back yard very very fast.  you may want to go with the 24 volt set
up

> Don't forget, the 144V pack is only 6.5 Ah.  While I don't see wanting
> to trek across town with this thing, it would be nice if it could give
> a few miles, or at least half an hour, of fun before it needs to be
> charged.
do you know what is the max amps this will put out (may only be 30 or 40
amps so there is no need for big controller)


> Later,
>
> Matt
> --
> If you're reading this, chances are your either:
> A. A Honda freak, just like me.
> '01 M.C. Blue Insight 5 spd. #1898, 57.1 LMPG @ 24,900 mi.
> B. A Mac Addict, just like me.
> Dual-1GHz PowerMac G4, iBook 800MHz 12.1"
> or
> C. An EV freak, just like me!
> :-)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is me also . My c31's deep cycle in my porsche have also died ..I was
told and now I belive deep cycle (trolling motor bats) won't cut it (got a
deal on them so I don;t feel to bad)  .  I'll be very intrested in how your
Evercels do .  when the batteries start going south in my work truck I just
drive slower and ran the first pack till all I could get out of them was 35
ah ( these were golf cart bats that in there prime gave 100 ah easy) ..
Maybe your belt is tighter that before ( 5% power lose)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)


> Okay, My Sparrow is now officially not-useable for my commute.
> There are 2 factors that have come together to cause this.
> A) My YT's seem to be down to 85-90% of their original capacity.
> B) The Sparrow is drawing a little more power after the latest round of
> repairs.
>
> Remember that my normal commute sucked about 5KWH out of the 13 YT
> pack.  The pack was definitely ageing fast, and was getting marginal
before
> the latest round of repairs.
> After replacing the rear axle bearing (and lots of other small changes),
> the car now draws about 5 to 8% more power than it used to.
> And yes, I have checked the tire pressure, brake dragging, etc....  I've
> been unable to figure out just where all this power is going.  I did
> upgrade the EMeter to have RS-232 (which I haven't been able to get to
work
> yet!), and there is a chance that it's not reading exactly the same as the
> old one.
> I do know that getting to work with my pack in it's current condition is
> iffy.  When I last tried, the voltage started plummeting about 3 miles
> short of work.  I had to stop and spend 1/2 hour charging from a friendly
> business.
>
> So, I'm now seriously looking into Evercel MB80's.  Last quote was for
$294
> ea, probably available in mid-late december.
>
> I'm taking bids for my YT pack.  Slightly abused, but probably have at
> least 80% of capacity left in them.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
erm, didn't Seth's accident/test show that the inertia switch didn't do
anything? Has anyone actually shown the thing to work in real life?
yeah, the switch didn't do crap. It does trip if you hit it hard enough with your fist, but I'd like it to trip in an accident as well. I think it is important to mount it on a VERY stiff surface, not just on some sheet metal like I did. That way it will get the most shock and be more likely to trip.

Seth


--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION

http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So to detect when dv/dt changes from increasing to decreasing, is there a simple analog cicuit that can do this (takes 2nd derivative??) or does this really require a microprocessor based system?

Victor Tikhonov wrote:
http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/680
NiCd and NiMH cells
While constant current is applied, the cell voltage rises slowly and eventually reaches a peak (a point of zero slope). NiCd charging, should terminate at a point past the peak: when the battery voltage first shows a slight decline (-DV).



_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---

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