EV Digest 2434

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: OT "What would Jesus Drive"
        by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Battery pack design for "ultra-light" EV
        by "tgleeman2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Charging old batteries.
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  4) Re: Slew of Questions
        by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Aspire Range
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) What's wrong w/ starter motors
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  7) EVAA 2002 EV Conference
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: EVs on Ebay
        by "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: What's wrong w/ starter motors
        by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: EVLN(Plug-in Hybrid Workshop 12/10 9a-5p Hollywood, Florida)
        by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: OT "What would Jesus Drive"
        by Don Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: EVs on Ebay/now X1/9
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: OT "What would Jesus Drive"Comments
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: OT "What would Jesus Drive"
        by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Evercel NiZi charging
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Evercel MB80 price
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: What's wrong w/ starter motors
        by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: "Do It Right the First Time"
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Useful link
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Charging old batteries.
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: What's wrong w/ starter motors
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Batteries for go-kart
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Ventura County (CA) EAA meeting: Tomorrow - Nov 23, 2002
        by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: LED Low Voltage indicator
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) RE: "Do It Right the First Time"
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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"Steven S. Lough" wrote:

> I suggest, those of similar persuasion get in touch with these well
> meaning folk, and let them know that there is a 'grass roots' group
> called the EAA and that they have been working towards these same goals
> for almost 30 years or more.... I.M.H.O.
>

OK...I'm on it-and will report back on what transpires...
Michael B.
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Hi Lesley,

You stated:

> They're building a vehicle for the ultra-light EV category.
> The current plan is that they'll be running a Lynch 48v motor
> with a Curtis 1209b controller. 

If you need a lightweight system why not try building a battery from
Sanyo's HR-G, nickel metal hydride cells. They are rated at 7.5 amp hours
each. See them at http://nicdlady.com/.

Tom

---------------------------------------------
Introducing NetZero Long Distance
1st month Free!
Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com
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Lee Hart wrote:
First, what is "automatic" about your charger? Does it automatically
turn itself off after some period of time, or when battery voltage
reaches some limit? If you are going to use it with sealed batteries, it
is important to be sure it doesn't just blindly keep charging them
forever.

Thanks very much for your timely reply. I was trying to decide whether or not to leave 
the charger on while I went out of town for the weekend.

I have 2 12 volt chargers.  One tapers the current to 0.25 amps at 15.0 votls (Not a 
steady current - it fluctuates between 0.0 and 0.8 amps.  The sticker says 0.25 amps.  
The other one is a little more modern.  It stops at 14.8 volts and drops right out, 
such that the battery voltage gradually falls back to 13. something (13.6 IIRC).  Just 
before it cuts out it is putting out 0.8 amps on my good meter.

So I gather from your message that leaving charger #1 on is probably not a good idea.  
Perhaps I'll do the routine charge with the newer charger and do a periodic equalizing 
charge with the other one.  At least until Rich sends me the PFC and I can stop 
reconfiguring the pack every time I test drive the car.


Mike Hoskinson
Out of town for the weekend and using unix 'mail' if you can believe it.
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Sam Harper wrote:

> Hey everybody, long time no speak.  Got a couple questions:
> -Has anyone implemented a pack from Thundersky yet?
> -Opinions on charging them?

Hello Sam, info from various sources indicates that they need a per-cell 
regulating / monitoring system.  The cells go from about 2.8V flat to 4.2 fully 
charged.  
  I understand that the 36 and 42V modules which Thundersky sell have such a 
regulating system built in, but it's not been determined whether this is OK to 
use in a series string, or whether it can be tied in to the charger and 
controller (which I think is necessary to do the job properly)

> -Would there be any pitfall to installing an Evercell pack in a 
> commercial EV?

Well, same pitfalls that everyone else has - you've got no solid data 
indicating how well it will perform, it's certainly not fit'n'forget (yet) and 
you'll need your own regulator system and charging algorithm, again, or be 
prepared to beta test someone else's.  And it's insanely expensive!

> -Do people think there is a market for a Corvette level commercial EV 
> in todays marketplace?
> -Possibly if its a parallel hybrid (running on say, propane or CNG)

That depends if you want the pessimistic or optimistic answer :)
  Oil is going to be cheap for the next few years, for you guys at least.
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Lawrence wrote:

> 10 batteries up front.  One in the hump.  8 where the gas tank was and
> the rear box holds 11.  It is open around the top (just welded to the
> frame in a few places.  I was going to use expanding foam to seal it.
> It rained and the box got wet inside. 

OK.

I was already planning on a similar box under the rear of my next project (which 
hopefully I'll be able to resume soon). I was thinking of 
using some kind of rubber stripping that compresses to make the seal, not unlike what 
is sometimes used on the bottom of garage 
doors. Something like that anyway. I'll know it when I see it.


Vince
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Hi all,

I've always heard that auto starter motors are not very good for EV propulsion, 
but they'll get the job done.  So why is that and what can we do about it?  My 
ideas are:

Poor bushings, no bearings (friction losses)
Huge field winding (Resistance loss)
Small package (gets hot quick)

So if the blood sweat and tears was put into improving the bearings, some 
forced air cooling, and a bit of field weakening, would this motor be a better 
performer?


Maybe a better choice would be a winch motor?  Surplus center has one in the 
catalog I just got, 3/4" shaft, 4" diam x 7 inch long.  Seems like it'd be a 
bit small, but a trip to the store revealed a winch with a 4" diam x 5 inch 
motor rated at 4.8 HP!  And with a draw of up to 450 amps, that's about right.  
Efficiency wouldn't be that terrible, not exactly PM efficiency though.  So the 
winch motor adds a standard shaft and probably a bit more run time than the 
starter, but it's still rated intermittent.  I'm sure it'll take you longer to 
pull yourself out of a mud hole than it'll take to start your car.



Is the winch motor the new wave of cheap dirty cart propulsion?




Darin Gilbert
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message  *
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When I worked at GE we did a treadmill control for the commercial cheapo
version.
These were cheap and dirty universal brush motors with a triac speed
control.
These motors would be pretty crappy for a cart.
Recently Ametek has worked with some high end treadmill makers that supply
fitness
centers.  Some of these motors are quite impressive.  We installed a 64
Frame (5.25" diameter)
with an 8" stack that would do 2 H.P. continuous.  If you can get a high
end treadmill motor it may
work very well in a cart.  I wouldn't even bother with the consumer version
though.
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh



Matthew Muelver wrote:
> Ok, so that's two votes against the treadmill motors.  What kind of
> motor should I be looking for?

I agree; most of the treadmill motors I've seen would be useless for a
go-kart. They are too poorly built, and would quickly fail.

A car starter motor would also quickly fail, but it would be fun while
it lasted!

> For simplicity's sake, if I just short my batteries to the motor,
> what kind of amperage will I really be looking at with my two battery
> options? (24V YT and 144V NiMH)

Into a treadmill motor: The 24v YTs would barely produce enough torque
to move the go-kart. The 144v Nimh pack would deliver 50+ amps and
probably burn out a fuse or wire in the pack. If you managed to get the
motor started, it would run pretty fast. But when you put a load on the
motor, *then* it would blow a fuse or wire in the pack, or burn up the
motor.

Into a car starter motor: The 24v YTs would give you a wild and powerful
ride, similar to a go-kart with a lawnmower engine and an on/off
throttle. The motor would last a dozen hours or so and then be worn out.

My recommendation would be to use a golf cart motor. It may take some
work to find one that comes with bearings at both ends; most use the
golf cart's differential to provide the bearing at one end.

> Here's another question that I've got for you guys.  Why isn't the
> resistance of motors ever listed?

It is, once you can lay hands on the actual data sheet for the motor.
Motors in the sizes you are interested in have resistances well under
0.1 ohms.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen




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I own 4 Fiat X1/9's, and I would have to say that the engine is a superb design
and extremely reliable.

Designed by Lampredi, it is essentially a single cam version of the Fiat/Lancia
Twin-cam. Used in cars as diverse as the Fiat 124, 124 Spider, 132, Strada,
Lancia Beta, Beta Montecarlo, 037, Delta (including the S4, both supercharged
and turbocharged) and Thema, plus plenty more.

But I digress.  The problems you will find are with gearbox synchromeshes and
rust (and lots of it unless you live somewhere dry). The weight distribution is
fantastic, and you would have the opportunity to replace the fuel tank (mounted
vertically behind the left hand seat in the passenger cabin)

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you for this list. I'm a
student studying Automotive Engineering Design, and your pictures,comments and
stories give me confidence that EV's are as viable as I believe. I've chosen an
aspect of EV design as my final year project, so I might have to ask you all
some question about where you source your motors from soon!

James Rice


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Batie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: EVs on Ebay


On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:14:17PM -0500, Jim Coate wrote:
> I looked at electric vehicles on Ebay for the first time in a while and
> was impressed by how many there were - scooters, NEVs, etc and a couple
> of real cars including a nice Solectria right in my back yard. Don't
> know what to make of the quantity, but the bids so far tell me that
> interest in EVs is alive and well.

I don't suppose anyone knows anything about the Fiat X-1/9 Item # 1872668692?
I always liked the looks of the X1/9, though heard it had reliability
problems.  Hopefully mostly with the engine...

--
Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!

    We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
       Hi Darin and All,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've always heard that auto starter motors are not
> very good for EV propulsion, 
     Correct.

> but they'll get the job done.  So why is that and
> what can we do about it?  My 
> ideas are:
> 
> Poor bushings, no bearings (friction losses)
> Huge field winding (Resistance loss)
> Small package (gets hot quick)

      Yes

> 
> So if the blood sweat and tears was put into
> improving the bearings, some 
> forced air cooling, and a bit of field weakening,
> would this motor be a better 
> performer?
     Field weakening would just make it draw more
power, not less. It's normally used to get more power
at higher speeds.
     Using it at 0 rpm would cause even larger amp
draws, breaking things.
     These motors have huge starting torques, amps so
start them with a resistor in series, then short the
resistor out for top speed.
     My 1st EV, EV grin, that made it on the road back
in 75 was a B+S type minibike with 1 -12vdc batt, ford
starter, selenoid and about 6-1 chain direct drive.
     The only way to start was to push off hard and
lean all the way forward before hitting the go button,
or it would wheelie over backwards and land on your
chest. My older brother didn't listen to me, that was
funny!!
     Top speed was about 25mph but would have gone
faster if geared higher. Nothing I ever raced could
beat it across an intersection. It got to 25mph now!
     The motor lasted until the police told me if they
see it on the street again I was going to jail. I was
using it to commute to work. 
     Motor life will be under 10 hrs, longer with your
mods but stock brushes are not great.
     My favorite starter motor was the Ford starter
for their OHV V8's. Just knock out the pin and the
bendix/gear comes off leaving a nice long shaft to
work with. 1/2"?
     I'd leave the motors stock, use a pillow block
bearing to take the shaft forces, a centrifical clutch
to lower the starting amps, torque, and/or along with
a starting resistor would do you well for  maybe 25-50
hrs before rebuilt starter replacement. It's one of
the cheapest rebuilts you can buy, under $20 in auto
parts stores.
> 
> 
> Maybe a better choice would be a winch motor? 
> Surplus center has one in the 
> catalog I just got, 3/4" shaft, 4" diam x 7 inch
> long.  Seems like it'd be a 
> bit small, but a trip to the store revealed a winch
> with a 4" diam x 5 inch 
> motor rated at 4.8 HP!  And with a draw of up to 450
> amps, that's about right.  
> Efficiency wouldn't be that terrible, not exactly PM
> efficiency though.  So the 
> winch motor adds a standard shaft and probably a bit
> more run time than the 
> starter, but it's still rated intermittent.  I'm
> sure it'll take you longer to 
> pull yourself out of a mud hole than it'll take to
> start your car.
    Same as the starter, in fact, many are ford
starters!!
     Those amps are at stall.  As soon as the rpm
raises, the amps will go way down. 
     The rebuilt ford starter is a lot cheaper.
     If you want to spend more, old GE golf cart
motors will do you well and last for many, many years,
cost about $100 or less at golf cart repair shops
used.
    Make sure the GC and winch motors have both
endplates!! Many don't.  
         HTH, 
              jerry dycus
> 
> 
> 
> Is the winch motor the new wave of cheap dirty cart
> propulsion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darin Gilbert
> 


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--- Begin Message ---
Just so we are all on the same page, I believe this is the motor he was
talking about:
http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=18&category=174
The motor at the top made by Leeson Electric.  Click on the tiny camera
to see a photo of this 5"x8" double shafted motor.

On Fri, 2002-11-22 at 13:17, Rod Hower wrote:
> 
> When I worked at GE we did a treadmill control for the commercial cheapo
> version.
> These were cheap and dirty universal brush motors with a triac speed
> control.
> These motors would be pretty crappy for a cart.
> Recently Ametek has worked with some high end treadmill makers that supply
> fitness
> centers.  Some of these motors are quite impressive.  We installed a 64
> Frame (5.25" diameter)
> with an 8" stack that would do 2 H.P. continuous.  If you can get a high
> end treadmill motor it may
> work very well in a cart.  I wouldn't even bother with the consumer version
> though.
> Rod
> www.qsl.net/w8rnh
> 
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
       Hi All,
          Here is the URL of the conference and 1 of
it's workshops.
                     jerry dycus
--- Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(Plug-in Hybrid Workshop 12/10 9a-5p Hollywood,
> Florida)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> EV
>  informational purposes. Contact publication for
> reprint rights.]
>  --- {EVangel}
> http://www.eticonference.com/workshops.html
> LOCATION: The Westin Diplomat Resort & Convention
> Center
>           Hollywood Beach, Florida
> 
> PRE-CONFERENCE WORKSHOPS
> Two pre-conference workshops will be held on
> Tuesday,
> December 10 at the Westin Diplomat Resort &
> Convention
> Center. Attendance is open to all individuals
> although
> discounted rates are available to those who register
> for the
> Electric Transportation Industry Conference.
> [...]
> Plug-in Hybrid Workshop
> The University of California, Davis will offer a
> pre-conference workshop entitled "Societal and
> Industrial
> Benefits of Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles" on
> Tuesday,
> December 10th from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. This
> full-day
> seminar will include stakeholder presentations in
> the
> morning and open discussions on topics such as
> costs,
> benefits, customer demand and future steps in the
> afternoon.
> Information on registration fees and process will be
> available in September.
> -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . http://egroups.com/group/evangel
> =====
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
> http://autos.yahoo.com
> 


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This might have been said and I missed it.  But it seems "they" want to
answer to be smaller more efficient cars.  Personally, I think he would
drive an EV!  But of course "they" do not want to hear that.

For my 2 cents, I think the ad campaign is immoral.

Don Powell

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven S. Lough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 8:17 PM
> To: EV Discussion List Receiver
> Subject: OT "What would Jesus Drive"
> 
> 
> Generally, I am way against mixing religion, and technology, or even
> ecology... ( even though the native Americans have been doing it for
> centuries....     But I have often said
> round Seattle, and at our SEVA meetings,   that " I would 
> dance with the
> devil himself to help get ONE MORE  E.V.  on the road"
> So....   I guess to keep things balanced....   I would talk the "The
> Lord" to help get another EV on the road as well.
> 
> 
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I saw one student design that had 50% battery weight and had a 150 mile
range.  Is this vehicle as strong as the 914 midengine Porsche?  On some EVs
like Rich Browns two motors can replace a gear box.  Does the Fiat have a
drive shaft?  Could one gear be used to run off the input to the
differencial?  Just wondering....Lawrence Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
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----- Original Message -----
From: Don Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: OT "What would Jesus Drive"


>
> This might have been said and I missed it.  But it seems "they" want to
> answer to be smaller more efficient cars.  Personally, I think he would
> drive an EV!  But of course "they" do not want to hear that.
>
> For my 2 cents, I think the ad campaign is immoral.
>
    Hi All;

  MOST ad campeigns are Immoral, anyhow. Especially the ones of SUV's
charging through pristinre wilderness, throwing up mud and snow because they
can do it. How many zillion gallons of oil did the "Prestege" tanker dump in
the sea the other day. now THAT'S a sin! Jesus wept over that one!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steven S. Lough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 8:17 PM
> > To: EV Discussion List Receiver
> > Subject: OT "What would Jesus Drive"
> >
> >
> > Generally, I am way against mixing religion, and technology, or even
> > ecology... ( even though the native Americans have been doing it for
> > centuries....     But I have often said
> > round Seattle, and at our SEVA meetings,   that " I would
> > dance with the
> > devil himself to help get ONE MORE  E.V.  on the road"
> > So....   I guess to keep things balanced....   I would talk the "The
> > Lord" to help get another EV on the road as well.
> >
> > Maybe that's what we need? The Lord's help. Seek and you'll recieve?
Could we get Him on our side? Prey for a better battery, not from thesre
shores, only the Lord could override the Cartel here. HE may have other
plans, down the road, that we don't know about. All He has to do is aim a
Texas size chunk of debris our way. End of Problem. Start over. We need to
clean up our act here. I won't get too much OT on this one. But HE did loan
us ONE planet, a nice one, to have and hold. I consider it a loan, NOT a
outward grant.Or to be TAKEN for granted.

   End of Rant.

    My two Watts worth

   Bob
>
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"They" say that the goal is to drive the most efficient car that meets
your needs.  Many people don't do that.  

If jesus needed to get his buddies and a boat to the lake to do some
fishing, he would drive an SUV that would safely pull his boat and hold
his friends.  If the hybrid option was available on that SUV they
that's what he would choose.

If the store is just 3 blocks from his house he would walk.

If his everyday commute is all by himself and within the range of an
EV, then he would drive an EV otherwise a hybrid.

Which brings me to why I want an electric vehicle and hang out on the
list.  Of course there are people on this list that agree with me and
some that don't.  Some of you put these in different order

1)  I'm a car guy.  If i see a nice car (ICE or other) and I can see
the hardwork put into, then I will probably like it.  I like the rice
burners and the classic muscle.  I like old restored semi-trucks and
highly modified bicycles.  I also have respect for the guy/gal that did
the work.  I want a cool vehicle that I put a lot of work into.

2)  I like to work on vehicles.  I like to tinker with my own vehicles.
 I enjoy the time spent changing oil/checking fluids.  I don't have the
education/tools/time to get into the major repair work of an ICE.  I
understand and can work with electric vehicles (they are pretty easy to
follow how they work).

3) I don't like gas stations/convenience stores and the smelly gas or
the time involved to try to get to one.  I don't want to take my son
out of the car just to go in and pay then come back out and strap him
back in.  I don't like how messy I get tinkering with my own car at
home.  

4)  I don't like our (The United States) gas guzzling ways and how
people (some of them my relatives) are sent to war over oil interests. 
I've always been told that if you can't get along with somebody, try to
talk it out and if that doesn't work then walk away.  I was never told
to risk my life just because somebody didn't like me.  We need to walk
away and the best way to "start" that is by not using the oil from that
region.

5)  I'm an electrical engineer.  If I can do something with
electricity, then I'm gonna try.

6)  The last reason I want an electric car is because of the
environment.  My little change to electric won't affect the total
pollution scheme, so I don't even try to come from that angle.  The
solar panels that I'll put on my new house won't affect anything
either.   The electric car is a proof of concept.  We are proving that
we can do it even though big corp. says it's not feasible.  Changing
the world one opinion at a time.  Showing others that driving doesn't
have to hurt the environment as much as it does now.

Still though, first and foremost, I am a car guy and I appreciate the
distinct modifications electric cars have from everything else on the
road.  They just get all the side benefits that I stated in 2) through
6).

Keep up the good work guys and to all of you (like me) that are still
dreaming, best of luck.

Eric


--- Don Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> This might have been said and I missed it.  But it seems "they" want
> to
> answer to be smaller more efficient cars.  Personally, I think he
> would
> drive an EV!  But of course "they" do not want to hear that.
> 
> For my 2 cents, I think the ad campaign is immoral.
> 
> Don Powell
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steven S. Lough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 8:17 PM
> > To: EV Discussion List Receiver
> > Subject: OT "What would Jesus Drive"
> > 
> > 
> > Generally, I am way against mixing religion, and technology, or
> even
> > ecology... ( even though the native Americans have been doing it
> for
> > centuries....     But I have often said
> > round Seattle, and at our SEVA meetings,   that " I would 
> > dance with the
> > devil himself to help get ONE MORE  E.V.  on the road"
> > So....   I guess to keep things balanced....   I would talk the
> "The
> > Lord" to help get another EV on the road as well.
> > 
> > 
> 


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--- Begin Message --- I've been digging around on the Evercel site again, and have been looking at their current charging specifications. For a single MB80 (8 cell, 68AH) they recommend:
12 Volts (1 battery)
First Charge: 22 Amps, 203 min, cutoff at 16 Volts
Rest Time: 5 Minutes
Second Charge: 4.0 Amps or 20 Minutes, constant voltage 16 Volts

I find it interesting that they specify a rest time between stages. Have to make the charger yet a little more complicated!
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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At 08:00 PM 11/21/2002 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok, so what is the correct current price for these batteries.
Availability: Late December
Price:  MB40    $133
        MB50    $175
        MB80    $294
        MB100   $350
No quantity price breaks until the 100+ unit mark.
(Price does not include chargers)

Who is anyone getting together for a group quantity buy ?
Since they require > 100 to get a discount, not a lot of point in doing a group buy.

My Electric Beetle needs a new set after 9.5 years of Trojan T-145's.
What are the physical dimensions and weight of the Ni-Zn batteries ?
See http://www.evercel.com/manufacturing.html

It looks like they have chargers available for all sizes except the MB80. Doesn't really matter as I really hope to have a PFC charger instead.
Of course there isn't any mention of a warranty on their web site. I just hope they will replace DOA units.
I've put in my reservation for 13 MB80's, supposedly they will be getting them in late december. (Probably on a slow boat from China.)


--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:

> > The 144v Nimh pack would deliver 50+ amps and
> > probably burn out a fuse or wire in the pack. If you managed to get 
> > the
> 
> I'd bet 144V would cause the motor to draw 150 amps or more 
> at stall (assuming your batteries could source that much).  
> In addition to melting wires, etc. there is also the 
> possibility of demagnetizing the "permanent" magnets.

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but I seem to remember
the NiMh pack came from an Insight.  That seems like a pretty pricey
pack to be causally letting the smoke out of it.

Why not see if a buyer can be found (on e-bay, perhaps?), and use the
money to build a real go-kart?

Chris
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Maybe a better choice would be a winch motor? Surplus center has one in the
catalog I just got, 3/4" shaft, 4" diam x 7 inch long.
My very first EV (5th grade!) used an old 12V winch motor just like what you're describing here. It ran off of a cheap 'marine' deep cycle battery with an off/on pull switch which periodically needed to be replaced because the 75 amp rated contacts would have arced away into nothingness. The cart was made out of two bike frames my dad and I got from the local transfer center with a bit of steel pipe welded between them to keep them together. There was a nice little plywood floor and a plywood seat which was hinged right where the original bike seats would have gone, with an extension on the back of the seat. When you leaned back, the soles of some old sneakers would rub against the tires. Those were our 'brake shoes' :-) That cart was a riot to drive (I'm way to big now), had plenty of torque (it was one wheel drive, so I used to come barreling down our dirt driveway and cut it over hard and leave 'burn marks' everywhere). I think it topped out around 12 mph. It was a great learning experience, a fabulous father/son project, and most importantly, got me into EVs! Total budget: $50

Keep wearin' that EV grin

Seth


--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION

http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
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Seth Murray wrote:
> 
> > erm, didn't Seth's accident/test show that the inertia switch didn't do
> > anything? Has anyone actually shown the thing to work in real life?
> 
> yeah, the switch didn't do crap.  It does trip if you hit it hard
> enough with your fist, but I'd like it to trip in an accident as well.
> I think it is important to mount it on a VERY stiff surface, not just
> on some sheet metal like I did.  That way it will get the most shock
> and be more likely to trip.

Locating the inertial switch (which triggers the airbags) is a difficult
problem even for the auto companies. They try to find the best spot by
computer simulation, but then their crash tests often show that the
computer is wrong, and they have to do it based on experience and trial
and error. (Crash! Nope, that didn't work. Try putting it over here and
bring in another car. Crash! That was better, get another car and try a
little to the left. Crash! Nope, still not quite right, get another
car...). Gets kind of expensive. :-)
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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>> NiCd and NiMH cells
>> While constant current is applied, the cell voltage rises slowly and
>> eventually reaches a peak (a point of zero slope).  NiCd charging,
>> should terminate at a point past the peak: when the battery voltage
>> first shows a slight decline (-DV).

Jim Coate wrote:
> So to detect when dv/dt changes from increasing to decreasing, is
> there a simple analog cicuit that can do this (takes 2nd derivative?)
> or does this really require a microprocessor based system?

Either analog or digital circuits can do it. It's the first derivitive,
not the second.

If done with analog circuitry, it means an RC network with a very long
time constant. An opamp looks at the voltage drop across the resistor or
current in the capacitor; if it is positive, the capacitor is charging
and dv/dt is positive. If zero, dv/dt=0. If negative, dv/dt is negative.

The difficulty with analog is that it takes a very large value of
resistance and capacitance, so leakage currents can affect it. Also, the
charger supplying current to the battery must be VERY stable. If, for
example, the charging voltage drops a little when the AC line voltage
drops a little, the dv/dt sensing circuit will interpret this dip as
dv/dt going negative and terminate the charge early.

Also be aware that this appnote was speaking about this dv/dt effect in
general. Not all nicad or nimh batteries exhibit it, and the magnitude
of the effect varies with charging rate, temperature, age of battery,
etc. dv/dt works best when the charger and batteries are sold as a
matched pair, so the manufacturer can tailor the dv/dt point to the
actual batteries used. It doesn't work as well for a loose charger to be
used with any old batteries that the customer buys off the hook at Radio
Shack.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have 2 12 volt chargers. One tapers the current to 0.25 amps at
> 15.0 volts (Not a steady current - it fluctuates between 0.0 and
> 0.8 amps. The sticker says 0.25 amps.

That one will do a hard equalize on your sealed batteries. A weekend
isn't bad, but don't do it any more often than necessary. Doing this on
every charge cycle with overcharge your battery to death.

> The other one is a little more modern. It stops at 14.8 volts and
> drops right out, such that the battery voltage gradually falls back
> to 13. something (13.6 IIRC).

That sounds like it switches to a float voltage. This will be much
better. You can leave it at 13.6v for months at a time without harm.
Although, sealed batteries really don't need to be kept on a "float"
charge.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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> Darin Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've always heard that auto starter motors are not very good for EV
> propulsion, but they'll get the job done. So why is that and what can
> we do about it? My ideas are:
> 
> Poor bushings, no bearings (friction losses)
> Huge field winding (Resistance loss)
> Small package (gets hot quick)

The field winding isn't particularly bad.

The small size is a problem only because it has no cooling. It generates
a lot of heat, and there's no way for it to get out.

Another problem is that they uses low temperature 130 deg.C "class B"
insulation materials. A high quality motor will use high temperature 180
deg.C "class H" insulation.

One you missed is that they have solid copper brushes. They wear out
VERY fast. Any motor designed for longer brush life will have carbon
brushes (often carbon with copper dust filling to improve conductivity
for low voltage motors).

> So if the blood sweat and tears was put into improving the bearings,
> some forced air cooling, and a bit of field weakening, would this
> motor be a better performer?

Yes. But it still wouldn't be as good as a motor built right in the
first place. The big question is whether you have more time than money.

> Is the winch motor the new wave of cheap dirty cart propulsion?

Could be. But I wouldn't be too surprised if cheap winches just use
cheap car starter motors.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Steve Clunn wrote
> I have noticed that the car weight/bat weight formula works very
> well for cars/trucks... What I am wondering is that as you get
> smaller in weight/power/wheel size do the miles get "smaller" also?

No. All things being equal, a small EV and a large EV with the same
car/battery weight ratio would have the same performance.

> Here is what got me wondering about this. The little R/C cars that
> the kids play with have a 1/3 bat/car ratio but they won't perform
> any were near what a ev car will do. (I'm told 15 minits of run).
> Now this is far down the scale.

Many things go wrong as you scale it down this far. First, they are
toys; with really cheap motors (very low efficiency), sleeve bearings
(instead of ball bearings), high rolling resistance tires (often wider
than they are in diameter), high voltage drops in the wiring (as a
fraction of total battery voltage), etc.

Another is that the "roads" they are driving on are tremendously bumpy
compared to the ones we drive on. A 0.1" diameter pebble is like driving
your car over 2" diameter rocks.

Another is that aerodynamics get odd for really small objects. Thus bees
can fly, and dandilion seeds can float. As it pertains to a small car,
its wind resistance is a much larger percentage of the total losses. If
you cut the size of a vehicle by (say) 10:1 in all dimensions, it is now
1/1000th the weight (thus 1/1000th the power). But it has 1/100th the
frontal area. Thus aerodynamic losses are 10 times worse per pound of
vehicle.

I'm sure you could build a toy-sized EV with 50% of its weight in
batteries that can go 100 miles on a charge. But, you'd have to test it
on a very smooth track (one rail of a train track? :-) and it would be
built more like a swiss watch than a plastic toy.

> Go the other way; how about a bus with 1/3 ratio (21 ton bus / 7 ton
> of batteries). My feeling is that it would go much further than the
> car (with same ratio).

It very well could. For one thing, motors get more efficient as their
horsepower goes up. Larger diameter, relatively skinny tires generally
have lower rolling resistance. The wind resistance effect that works
against smaller vehicles works in your favor here.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
(Repeat message with Subject added)
Just a final reminder that the next meeting of the Ventura County EAA will
be held:

Saturday Nov 23th 10am-Noon-ish
Borders Books Cafe, 125 W Thousand Oaks Blvd
Thousand Oaks, CA

Hope to see you there!

Bruce Tucker
Secretary, VC-EAA

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--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> As in use #30 wire for the entire run (ribbon cable etc) or use a
> larger gage wire for the run with a short length of #30 at the
> battery terminal?

The latter; use a short piece of #30 at the battery terminal, and a
thicker, better insulated wire to run to the dash.

> does the insulation on the wire need to be rated for the 6-12 volts
> of the battery, or for the 144-192 volts etc of the total pack, in
> case somehow things short together?

The insulation needs to be rated for the highest voltage that might
occur between the wire and whatever the insulation touches (ground, or
people).

If you have an isolated charger, then full pack voltage could appear
across the insulation; thus ribbon cable or normal low-voltage wire is
not adequate.

If you use a non-isolated charger, the full AC line voltage (including
surges and spikes) could be across this insulation. UL feels that all
wiring and parts connected to the AC line should have at least 1000v +
2x (line voltage) worth of insulation; that's 1250vac for 120vac stuff,
or 1500vac for 240vac stuff. Lest you think this is high, remember that
the AC line can hit 6000 volts peak during thunderstorms, even if
lightning doesn't hit anything nearby!
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:

> Locating the inertial switch (which triggers the airbags) is 
> a difficult problem even for the auto companies. They try to 
> find the best spot by computer simulation, but then their 
> crash tests often show that the computer is wrong, and they 
> have to do it based on experience and trial and error. 
> (Crash! Nope, that didn't work. Try putting it over here and 
> bring in another car. Crash! That was better, get another car 
> and try a little to the left. Crash! Nope, still not quite 
> right, get another car...). Gets kind of expensive. :-)

Hi Lee,

IIRC, the inertia switch Seth refers to isn't designed for airbags.
It's a simple shock detector (like a ball getting knocked out of a
spring seat or something similar) intended to shut off the fuel pump in
case of a crunch.  Don't know what acceleration it needs, or if it's
directional, or if it's adjustable.  (Maybe it's resetable?)  I think
only one is used, so mounting it on something very solid is probably the
best you can do.

Chris
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