EV Digest 2435

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Charging Question
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  2) RE: Slew of Questions
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
        by "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Evercel NiZi charging
        by "Glenn Crosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: E-Meter Questions
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: 
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10) Re: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: "Do It Right the First Time"
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Isolation? Re: LED Low Voltage indicator
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 16) Advanced batteries
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Joe Faggella)
 17) L6-30 or 50 receptacle
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: L6-30 or 50 receptacle
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: L6-30 or 50 receptacle
        by "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Isolation? Re: LED Low Voltage indicator
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Evercel MB80 price
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 22) [ev list] Re: Optima damage
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: "Do It Right the First Time"
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Charging Question
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: E-Meter Questions
        by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: L6-30 or 50 receptacle
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: Evercel MB80 price
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) Effective Regen or Over-Unity?
        by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 30) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 31) Re: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I posted this question awhile ago but never got a response so I'll try again. 

The Tropica charger has a control chip only capable of constant current. I was looking 
into changing this for one that does both constant current and constant voltage so 
that I could do a bulk at const I and then hold a const V. Nawaz had a post where he 
talked about only using constant I. Once above a threshold voltage, say 2.4v/cell, you 
would drop back to c/30 and keep charging until the voltage rose less than 
.004v/cell/hr. I would think this approach might even be kinder to my "mostly dead" 
batteries.

If I can use this approach, I can leave much of the charger alone and add a small 
micro to monitor the voltage and control the relays already on the charger that set's 
the current. 

Any reasons this is a bad idea?

In case anyone's interested, I ran a voltage profile of the Tropica's charge cycle. It 
runs 12amps to 87 volts, switches off untill the voltage drops to 78v and then 
repeats. At the next shut off, it lights the charge complete light and switches to 
5amp. I ran out of time so I'm not sure what happens beyond this point.

Steve

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Sam Harper wrote:

> -Do people think there is a market for a Corvette level commercial EV 
> in todays marketplace?
> -Possibly if its a parallel hybrid (running on say, propane or CNG)

Hi Sam,

I think the Corvette-like high performance market is perfect for
introducing an EV.  The Tango proves the performance is there.

Savvy marketing types will tell you that high performance buyers are
actually very "me-too".  They don't want anything that looks too
unconventional - they want to be *seen* as high performance drivers, and
there is a pretty rigid set of visual cues that defines the genre.  The
ultra-narrow Tango is a little too "out there" for broad acceptance.
(Of course when it gets produced and Vipers, 'Stangs, 'Vettes and other
rumpety-rumpers get dusted by it repeatedly, perceptions will change.
;^)

It's a good market to start in, because the customer base will accept
less-than-elegant compromises.  The first Vipers had side curtains
instead of windows, yet still cost around $50k!  And what better way to
dispel the myth that EVs must be slow?

As for making it a hybrid, isn't that a little like painting racing
stripes on a Prius?

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob - so much to say - where do we begin!

Yes indeed, I only subscribed last week - and get excited every morning at the
tales of electric conversions on some fantastic cars - Fiat X1/9's are a passion
of mine and Michael Hoskinson's Citroen DS had me grinning all day - post some
pictures Mike!

The trains over here have really suffered at the hands of a privatised rail
network - lots of money lost and a network that hasn't been useful for comuting
since so many of the railway lines were closed in the 60's.

Current price of fuel in the UK is rediculous by your standards - at the moment
a litre of 95 octane unleaded is roughly 0.76 - or $4.34 per US gallon (give or
take a few cents...) - most of it is tax, which seems to disapear into the void
of politicians pockets instead of being spent on improving the road network.  I
run a Toyota Supra 2.8i on 97 or 98 RON which tends to be 4 pence dearer per
litre too - if the engine dies - it's going electric!

I'm actually quite impressed by the weight of your VW - 1500kg almost exactly,
isn't that different to a modern mk5 Golf - albeit one equipped with
electrically operated leather seats, air conditioning and airbags (in case you
fall asleep in there!)

I'm a great believer that we should be making our transport smaller rather than
larger - but the trend, sadly is going in the opposite direction - comparing
your car to the current model is just not sensible, as in size terms the VW Polo
is bigger  :^(  SUV's over here take the form of 4 wheel drives like the BMW X5
and Range Rover all driven by mums on the the school run (1 child only of
course) - there are plenty of them, despite the running costs - and someone
really needs to explain to me why a parent who has two children, needs a 7
seater MPV!

Interestingly, Coventry University, where I'm studying, has a Peugeot EV van and
an EV 106 - buying one over here is possible - or you can cross the channel and
bring one over as a personal import.

You say you hope the far east might come up with the goods in terms of getting
affordable and useful EV's on the market - I aim to be at the forefront of
development...  I'm graduating in June, and if my projects go well, you may be
seeing a British EV being marketed across the US and Europe. As everyone has
been pointing out - the main problems at the moment lay with batteries and hence
range...  Fingers crossed Lithium-Ion batteries (or maybe something better!)
will become affordable...

There are so many advantages of electric vehicles over IC engined vehicles - for
example:  If the underside of a car is made completely smooth (covering chassis
rails, sump, exhausts, fuel tanks and other lumpy bits), the Coefficient of drag
can be reduced by as much as 0.1 (Hucho, Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles, fig
5.73) - if you're covering up the exhausts and leaving less x-sectional area for
cooling - this can cause some hot sticky problems - no such problem with an
EV...

So if we can make recharging a little quicker and build cars that can do 300
miles on a charge - we will win the day (once you've driven 200 miles - a 1 hour
top charge would make a nice break anyway!)

James


<Bob said...  lots!  snipped for brevity :^D>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have already developed a pulse charger for the Evercel batteries that
incorporates this rest period.  The data that may not be on the website is
the strong temperature dependency of the termination voltages for each
charge stage.  I have incorporated that also.  However, the charger I built
was for a customer using a 24V system.  When the batteries become available,
I'll be happy to start making chargers for EV's at the higher voltages.

/Glenn Crosby/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(909) 241-5198 voice
(909) 981-5574 fax/voice

----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:58 AM
Subject: Evercel NiZi charging


> I've been digging around on the Evercel site again, and have been looking
> at their current charging specifications.  For a single MB80 (8 cell,
68AH)
> they recommend:
> 12 Volts (1 battery)
> First Charge: 22 Amps, 203 min, cutoff at 16 Volts
> Rest Time: 5 Minutes
> Second Charge: 4.0 Amps or 20 Minutes, constant voltage 16 Volts
>
> I find it interesting that they specify a rest time between stages.  Have
> to make the charger yet a little more complicated!
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven Ciciora wrote:
> Firing up my e-meter that I bought used, and have some questions.
> I hear that there is an EV version and a non-EV version; the EV
> version has some input filtering. How can I tell if I have the EV
> version? Being an engineer, the first thing I did was open it up,
> and there were quite a few un-populated surface mount components.

The EV option has a filter on the 12v power input; it consists of a
1N4001 diode and 2.2 ohm resistor in series, and a 1000uf 50vdc
electrolytic capacitor to ground. The electrolytic is so large (about
0.5" diameter and 1" long) that it is obvious if it is present. 

> Also, I seem to remember somewhere that there is a schematic floating
> around for the prescaler.

The prescaler is functionally just a resistor in series with the voltage
sense input. It is 118k 1% for the 100v prescaler, and 1057k 1% for the
500v prescaler. The actual prescaler that they sell has this resistance
divided up between two resistors in series, plus a couple of 0.1uF
filter caps, a fuse (so if you hook it up wrong it won't catch fire),
and a zener to clamp the output in case you touch the prescaler output
wire when it is not hooked to an E-meter.

> Anyone know what the optional temp. sensor is?  Just a 10K thermistor?

It is a National Semiconductor LM35, with a 200 ohm resistor between its
Vout and Ground pins.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
> If I connect a permanent magnet DC motor to a Curtis (1771)
> controller, and the motor over-runs (i.e. generates a higher
> voltage than the battery pack) - what will happen?

The motor becomes a generator, and the parasitic diodes across the
MOSFETs in the controller conduct. The battery will be charged by the
current from the motor (now generator). This current is uncontrolled;
i.e. is only limited by how fast you turn the motor.

> Is it a good idea to let this happen, and what is the maximum
> current I should allow it to produce?

The maximum current should certainly not exceed the normal current value
for that controller.

> Should I fit an external diode to bypass the internal ones? What
> forward voltage drop would it need?

You could; though there is no guarantee that it will conduct rather than
the ones inside the controller unles they are Schottky diodes. Also,
they would need to be "fast" diodes, or their capacitance will add
stress to the MOSFETs when they switch during normal PWM operation.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Nov 2002 at 14:19, VanDerWal, Peter MSgt wrote:

> >What do you mean by "skill saw motors"?
> They are talking about ordinary circular saws, the hand held kind.  Skill saw
> is a brand name like Craftsman, etc.
> 

Aren't most of these AC induction motors?


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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On 21 Nov 2002 at 14:37, John Lussmyer wrote:

> Okay, My Sparrow is now officially not-useable for my commute.

Dumb question:  Is there anywhere at all in that vehicle that you can 
squeeze one or two more Optimas?  Perhaps bolted to the floor in front of 
the seat?  In the pizza-back, if you have it?  Two more modules would give 
you ~15% more energy onboard, if the controller can handle the higher 
voltage.


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,

John's Sparrow is a jellybean http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/MySparrow.htm
Has room in the rear storage for one more YT, or rearrange the front
batteries to allow a 7th up front (other 7 are under the seat).

But only the DCP might be able to handle 14 YT (168v nominal). The Kilovac
will probably fry.

-Ed Thorpe
also a jellybean http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/364.html


-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden (Akron OH USA) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)


On 21 Nov 2002 at 14:37, John Lussmyer wrote:

> Okay, My Sparrow is now officially not-useable for my commute.

Dumb question:  Is there anywhere at all in that vehicle that you can 
squeeze one or two more Optimas?  Perhaps bolted to the floor in front of 
the seat?  In the pizza-back, if you have it?  Two more modules would give 
you ~15% more energy onboard, if the controller can handle the higher 
voltage.


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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:35 PM 11/22/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
Dumb question:  Is there anywhere at all in that vehicle that you can
squeeze one or two more Optimas?  Perhaps bolted to the floor in front of
the seat?  In the pizza-back, if you have it?  Two more modules would give
you ~15% more energy onboard, if the controller can handle the higher
voltage.
I have a DCP controller, which should be able to handle an extra battery. The problem is that the car is a Jellybean, and there just isn't room for another battery. I do need a small amount of cargo space left for my briefcase!

--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:46 PM 11/22/2002 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John's Sparrow is a jellybean http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/MySparrow.htm
Has room in the rear storage for one more YT, or rearrange the front
batteries to allow a 7th up front (other 7 are under the seat).
I've looked at the arrangement under the hood. Even if I move the charger to the back, there still isn't enough room. The DCP accelerator assembly takes up too much room to let 2 batteries fit.

--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Nov 2002 at 19:11, James Rice wrote:

> Fingers crossed Lithium-Ion batteries (or maybe something
> better!) will become affordable...

Our fingers have been crossed for 20 years.  So far it hasn't worked.  

Some external force has to generate demand for EV-size advanced batteries.  
So far attempts to generate demand with EVs themselves have failed (largely 
thanks to craven legislators and callous corporations).  What we need is a 
highly desirable near-mass-market consumer product which ^needs^ high-
capacity EV-sized advanced batteries.  That will generate demand and lead to 
serial production and lower prices.

Unfortunately, I'm not imaginative enough to think what product that might 
be.  Suggestions, anybody?


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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope, they are universal motors.  In fact just a couple weeks ago I hooked
my circular saw up to an old SLI battery(car) and cut through a 1x6 pine
board. It was slow but it did it.


Stay Charged!

Hump 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden (Akron OH USA)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/22/02 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas

On 21 Nov 2002 at 14:19, VanDerWal, Peter MSgt wrote:

> >What do you mean by "skill saw motors"?
> They are talking about ordinary circular saws, the hand held kind.
Skill saw
> is a brand name like Craftsman, etc.
> 

Aren't most of these AC induction motors?


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While pulling out parts on the junk yard, I saw these sensor boxes
(made by Siemens) mounted on the side of the tunnel the shift lever 
is mounted on.

Lee Hart wrote:
...
> They try to find the best spot by
> computer simulation, but then their crash tests often show that the
> computer is wrong, and they have to do it based on experience and trial
> and error. (Crash! Nope, that didn't work. Try putting it over here and
> bring in another car. Crash! That was better, get another car and try a
> little to the left. Crash! Nope, still not quite right, get another
> car...). Gets kind of expensive. :-)

In new designs they mount tens of sensors all over at once, do one 
crash and see which one(s) perform as expected.

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Not to add more expense to this but is there a way to have the low voltage led say in a box on the battery then have a fiber optic line or such go to the dash? Do they sell something really cheap not to blow the price way to far up? Or is that another option to isolate it..

Joe Smalley writes:
The insulation needs to be rated for pack voltage.
If you use the small wire at the battery you will save the sheathed wire
from frying. In automobiles, they call these "Fusible Links."
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: LED Low Voltage indicator

As in use #30 wire for the entire run (ribbon cable etc) or use a larger
gage wire for the run with a short length of #30 at the battery
terminal? Also, this type of thing always confuses me... does the
insulation on the wire need to be rated for the 6 - 12 volts of the
battery, or for the 144 - 192 volts etc of the total pack, in case
somehow things short together? It occurs to me that telephone/ethernet
cable with 4 pairs of #24 would work nicely for each group of 4
batteries (and short lengths are easy to come by) but may not have the
insulation needed.
And thanks Lee for great ideas (as always).
Lee Hart wrote:
> >> If you want an LED that turns on when battery voltage drops, there
> >> are "low battery" LEDs with built-in voltage detectors. For example,
> >> a Lumex SSL-LX5093LBI-SRD (Digikey 67-1195-ND, $1.11 each) turns on
> >> when the voltage across it drops below 2.5v. For a 10.5v threshold,
> >> put an 8v zener in series.
> Yes, you want a fuse or fusible device in each wire. Not so much because
> the zener or LED might fail, but because the wires themselves may get
> accidentally shorted. Real fuses are expensive. For applications like
> this, where the exact fusing current and time aren't important, you can
> use #30 wire as a fuse, or put a 1/4 watt resistor in series with each
> lead.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com



Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:05:40 -0500, "David Roden (Akron OH USA)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Some external force has to generate demand for EV-size advanced batteries.  
>So far attempts to generate demand with EVs themselves have failed (largely 
>thanks to craven legislators and callous corporations).  What we need is a 
>highly desirable near-mass-market consumer product which ^needs^ high-
>capacity EV-sized advanced batteries.  That will generate demand and lead to 
>serial production and lower prices.
>
>Unfortunately, I'm not imaginative enough to think what product that might 
>be.  Suggestions, anybody?

The answer has always been the plug in Hybrid.  The problem is that the
auto companies do not seem interested in this.  Would joe six pack pay the
extra money for the beefed up motor and more expensive battery?

When I bought my Prius I told the salesman that I would be back to trade it
in when they put a plug on it.

Let the competition begin and may the best solution, whether it be Li-on or
NiMH win.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't seem to find male receptacles for the electric gas filler trick.
Would one just take a female and insert copper or brass to change the female
to male?  Or just find a larger electrical supply?  Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> 
> Can't seem to find male receptacles for the electric gas filler
> trick. Would one just take a female and insert copper or brass to
> change the female to male?  Or just find a larger electrical supply?

Find a larger supply house. I only needed 20 amps, but ended up using a
twist-lock 6-30P flanged inlet from Grainger as that is what I could get
most easily at the time. Of course it now looks like they carry a 20 amp
version as well.

http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/et/filler_inlet.jpg

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/catalogpageview.jsp?xi=xi&CatPage=680

 


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> Can't seem to find male receptacles for the electric gas filler trick.
> Would one just take a female and insert copper or brass to change the
female
> to male?  Or just find a larger electrical supply?  Lawrence Rhodes....

Generally most people use twist lock connectors where the chassis mount male
is required.  If you only need a 30 amp connector this should be fairly easy
to find at most electrical supply houses.  If you need a full 50 amp
connector this will be much more difficult to find and will probably have to
be ordered.  Also, these are usually standard industrial connectors and can
get quite expensive.  I just added a 50 amp twist lock connector to my car
in anticipation of receiving my PFC50 (are you listening Rich), I was able
to buy the proper twist locks used on Ebay for considerably less than the
100USD that they cost new.
Mike Pengelly
Phoenix, AZ
'90 Mustang EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Potentially could heat shrink  the end of a fiber onto the LED and then
put some sort of diffuser on the dash end of the fiber and just have a
way to remotely see the LED on the battery, rather than getting into
electronics at the dash end. This should work with any scraps of fiber
available... I don't know if there is a commercial version of this with
all the bits worked out?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Not to add more expense to this but is there a way to have the low
> voltage led say in a box on the battery then have a fiber optic
> line or such go to the dash? Do they sell something really cheap
> not to blow the price way to far up? Or is that another option to
> isolate it..


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
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Looks like the price is excessive and beyond my reach since charger is
not included and there isn't even pricing for a charger.
Are any of those tri-polar lead batteries available yet ?

On Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:03:58 -0800 "John G. Lussmyer"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> At 08:00 PM 11/21/2002 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >Ok, so what is the correct current price for these batteries.
> 
> Availability: Late December
> Price:  MB40    $133
>          MB50    $175
>          MB80    $294
>          MB100   $350
> No quantity price breaks until the 100+ unit mark.
> (Price does not include chargers)
> 
> >Who is anyone getting together for a group quantity buy ?
> 
> Since they require > 100 to get a discount, not a lot of point in 
> doing a 
> group buy.
> 
> >My Electric Beetle needs a new set after 9.5 years of Trojan 
> T-145's.
> >What are the physical dimensions and weight of the Ni-Zn batteries 
> ?
> 
> See http://www.evercel.com/manufacturing.html
> 
> It looks like they have chargers available for all sizes except the 
> MB80.  Doesn't really matter as I really hope to have a PFC charger 
> instead.
> Of course there isn't any mention of a warranty on their web site.  
> I just 
> hope they will replace DOA units.
> I've put in my reservation for 13 MB80's, supposedly they will be 
> getting 
> them in late december.  (Probably on a slow boat from China.)
> 
> 
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I 
> dream....             http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> 
> 


________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
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To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Re: Optima damage 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:19:58 -0500

In the above message, you asked for other ideas that would help us work
with the battery:

The early Yts had 4 finger notches along the 10" side (2 per side, in
the space between cylindrical cells). This was very handy (pun intended)
for installing and removing blocks from arrays of blocks. Perhaps it was
removed because the joint between the lid and the rest of the case
couldn't take the handling. But, their absence leads to more slipping
and dropping, which causes other uncontrolled loads. A better overall
design would have robust finger notches. If you think about it, that was
and should be a unique advantage to Optimas given their 6-pack
configuration.

Regarding linear arrays of single cells, the Radsok connector would do
the trick. There may be value in Radsoks even in the multicell blocks.
Come to think of it, about 1/4 of my batteries would benefit from having
a Radsok option in place of the existing terminals due to awkward or
nonexistent wrench clearance.
http://www.radsok.com/index.stm

Best Regards,
George Tylinski
George Tylinski Mechanical Design & Analysis
503-515-3338 voice
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Chris Tromley wrote:
> IIRC, the inertia switch Seth refers to isn't designed for airbags.
> It's a simple shock detector (like a ball getting knocked out of a
> spring seat or something similar) intended to shut off the fuel pump
> in case of a crunch.

I know; it's not the switch; it's the difficulty of locating the switch.
G forces in a crash are different in different parts of the car.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Tropica charger has a control chip only capable of constant
> current. I was looking into changing this for one that does both
> constant current and constant voltage so that I could do a bulk at
> const I and then hold a const V. Nawaz had a post where he talked
> about only using constant I. Once above a threshold voltage, say
> 2.4v/cell, you would drop back to c/30 and keep charging until the
> voltage rose less than .004v/cell/hr. I would think this approach
> might even be kinder to my "mostly dead"
> 
> If I can use this approach, I can leave much of the charger alone
> and add a small micro to monitor the voltage and control the relays
> already on the charger that sets the current.
> 
> Any reasons this is a bad idea?

No, it is a good plan. Lots of regulated power supplies actually
regulate current on a cycle-by-cycle basis, and then make slow changes
in the current regulation point with a separate slow voltage-correction
loop to accomplish voltage regulation. It works because there are large
filter capacitors to prevent the voltage form changing quickly. In your
case, the batteries accomplish this function.

> In case anyone's interested, I ran a voltage profile of the Tropica's
> charge cycle. It runs 12amps to 87 volts, switches off untill the
> voltage drops to 78v and then repeats. At the next shut off, it
> lights the charge complete light and switches to 5amp. I ran out
> of time so I'm not sure what happens beyond this point.

That's an odd charging algorithm. It should work, but would be pretty
slow at finishing. It would be important to know at what point it turns
off that final 5 amp charging, to see whether it overcharges or not.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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>> Anyone know what the optional temp. sensor is? Just a 10K thermistor?

>It is a National Semiconductor LM35, with a 200 ohm resistor between its
>Vout and Ground pins.

Lee;

Are all E-meters wired for the temp sensor, or did the meter need to be
ordered with it from the factory, e.g. RS-232 port?

-S
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Always remember that Live wires are female

Granger is good.
OSH sells up to 20amp, but they get hot.
a good 30 amp will run $40
in California.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: L6-30 or 50 receptacle


> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > Can't seem to find male receptacles for the electric gas filler trick.
> > Would one just take a female and insert copper or brass to change the
> female
> > to male?  Or just find a larger electrical supply?  Lawrence Rhodes....
>
> Generally most people use twist lock connectors where the chassis mount
male
> is required.  If you only need a 30 amp connector this should be fairly
easy
> to find at most electrical supply houses.  If you need a full 50 amp
> connector this will be much more difficult to find and will probably have
to
> be ordered.  Also, these are usually standard industrial connectors and
can
> get quite expensive.  I just added a 50 amp twist lock connector to my car
> in anticipation of receiving my PFC50 (are you listening Rich), I was able
> to buy the proper twist locks used on Ebay for considerably less than the
> 100USD that they cost new.
> Mike Pengelly
> Phoenix, AZ
> '90 Mustang EV
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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> > Okay, My Sparrow is now officially not-useable for my commute.
> > There are 2 factors that have come together to cause this.
> > A) My YT's seem to be down to 85-90% of their original capacity.
> > B) The Sparrow is drawing a little more power after the latest
> >    round of repairs.
> >

    I looked at your Sparrow (didn't think it looked strange.) 
Wondering if the handling would be affected if it had a couple of
paniers (batts) slung at the bottom of the doors, outboard?  Not safe
in a crack up maybe.  Sorry if this is thinking way too far "out of the
box" <smile>...  Could a battery wagon be coupled to the frame somehow
for towing, again without affecting handling?  Dunno.  Think I've seen
bikers with wagons touring on the highways though...  I'm just
imagining the human powered bike folks having a field day fabricating
an aero "cowling" to extend your Sparrow back a few feet to meld a
wagon "pod" with the Sparrow body.  

Lock

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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>From what everyone has been saying, the chargers are junk, so you
wouldn't want them even if included.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Looks like the price is excessive and beyond my reach since charger
> is not included and there isn't even pricing for a charger.
> Are any of those tri-polar lead batteries available yet ?


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
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I just had a thought.....Oh No!!


I heat my house with wood, cut off my own lot. The wood is located
approximately 3/4 mile out the backyard and up 200ft or so. The slope is
gradual and pretty much up the entire 3/4 mile run. 

I was thinking: if I used an electric pickup, or tractor, and started with a
full charge at the bottom, drove slowly up the hill, loaded the truck with
1000 - 1500 pounds of firewood and then regenned all the way back down, how
much energy would I recover.

 I am sure I would recover more than the standard amount of regen, with the
additional 1500lbs. Anybody have a guess as to how much more? I really
couldn't call it over-unity because me loading the truck is adding energy to
it. 

Stay Charged?

Hump
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Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:43:40 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Battery lifespan vs Abusive owner (me!)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 08:07 PM 11/22/2002 -0500, Lock Hughes wrote:
>Wondering if the handling would be affected if it had a couple of
>paniers (batts) slung at the bottom of the doors, outboard?  Not safe

Undoubtedly not safe!  (Pretty damn ugly too...)
Admittedly, I'm not really interested in major construction work.  I don't 
have enough spare time to do such things. Right now I'm planning on 
switching to Evercel's and hope they do what I need.

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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