EV Digest 2496
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Prius hacking. Alec Brooks AC Propulsion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Prius hacking. Alec Brooks AC Propulsion
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV Fuse
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Prius hacking. Alec Brooks AC Propulsion
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Raptur Problem
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Raptur Problem
by Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Seasons Wishes
by Charlie Richmond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Fuse
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Seasons Wishes
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Seasons Wishes
by Charlie Richmond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Seasons Wishes
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Raptur Problem
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Seasoned Greetings
by "EV'r up LATE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Vehicle safety: Bigger isn't better
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Nansel)
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Meier wrote:
> If you pull the Prius ICE, and replace it with a 40-50kw
> electric motor, ... Would the Prius drivetrain cause the
> electric motor to rotate backwards whereas the original
> ICE possibly had enough static friction to not rotate?
I think this is exactly what happens. The ICE has so much static
friction that it won't rotate until the torque on it is pretty high.
An electric motor usually freewheels very easily. However, it would not
be hard to use an AC motor and run a little DC on its windings; this
will essentially lock it up. Or, run a DC motor at low speed but with a
high current limit to accomplish the same thing.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Glenn,
What you may have been finding as far as the K&W isolation is
concerned is that the BC-250 (I believe that's the number) is
isolated. The BC-20, which is what I had and is an older model,
is most certainly not, being a glorified light dimmer triac type
of circuit. The BC-20 did have a GFI. I really am leaning
towards liking the idea of having a GFI right at the AC outlet on
the wall to "safe" everything downstream of there. There can be
some problems with running two GFIs, one downstream of the other,
but I have not found this to be much of a problem with my limited
exposure to that situation. Another reason to have isolation in
chargers is to allow more than one to be charging the car at the
same time. My understanding is that more than one non-isolated
charger is not a good idea.
I've charged the car for years with a non-isolated charger (the
K&W BC-20) and never had a safety problem. I think people are
too concerned about the issue. While isolation is nice, there's
lots of other ways to die around cars. I'm not going to let the
lack of isolation stop me from using what is otherwise a real
nice charger. Haven't purchased a Rudman PFC, but may very well
do so in the coming months.
I guess another thing that comes up here is why do we have an
electrical system that essentially makes it possible to
electrocute yourself by touching a hot item and any other item
out there that may be grounded, which a lot of stuff is. Humans
are frequently touching grounded objects, so that means that they
themselves are frequently a grounded object to some extent. And
we all know where that electricity in the hot line likes to go.
We certainly try to design the battery packs in our cars to be
floating relative to chassis, not have one pole tied off to
chassis so that the human can accidentally complete the circuit.
I believe there was a recent post on the EVDL giving a link to
the discussion of the history of the AC grounding system - I'll
have to read that sometime.
I think I'd like to Cc this to the EVDL and maybe we can rope
some members into making some comments.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Crosby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
> Hi Chuck,
>
> Form my web search, it appears that both the ZIVAN and the K&W
are isolated,
> while the RUSSCO (as you said), like the PFC, are not isolated.
My concern
> is about the safety of non-isolated chargers, although the
RUSSCO does
> incorporate Ground-Fault-Interrupt circuitry to minimize the
risk.
>
> Isolation is normally obtained through an isolated transformer,
which is
> less efficient than voltage conversion through non-isolated
> auto-transformers or switched inductor regulators.
Power-factor correction
> and isolation usually require two stages of voltage conversion,
with
> associated losses in each stage. The VICOR modules are
isolated, but
> achieve pretty good efficiencies through using a "zero current
switching"
> topology. It would be really nice to see a high efficiency
"zero current
> switching" isolated charger that didn't have the costs
associated with
> VICOR's high-power-density small-footprint design. VICOR seems
to target
> the military market where small size is more important than
cost.
>
> /Glenn Crosby/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Glenn Crosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
>
>
> > I'm not clear as to why isolation reduces inefficiency. The
K&W
> > and RUSSCO are not isolated. It's hard to run kwh-efficiency
> > experiments like this, since there are so many factors that
go
> > into "efficiency", but it seemed a trend amongst the three
> > chargers noted.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Glenn Crosby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
> >
> >
> > > Wouldn't most of the PFC charger advantage come from its
lack
> > of
> > > input-to-output isolation? Don't the others have
isolation?
> > >
> > > /Glenn Crosby/
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:20 PM
> > > Subject: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
> > >
> > >
> > > > Has anybody taken AC kWh readings upstream of their PFC
> > chargers
> > > > and, say, a Zivan K2? I've run a kWh-meter upstream of a
K&W
> > > > BC-20, Zivan K2, and a RUSSCO (beta unit). The 120V
Zivan K2
> > was
> > > > the best of the bunch, the RUSSCO was next, and the K&W
> > picked up
> > > > the rear. All 120V chargers. I was a little surprised
that
> > the
> > > > Zivan beat the RUSSCO. Now I'm wondering how the PFC
charger
> > > > would fare in this experiment on a 96V pack (where I know
the
> > > > power-factor correction is probably on the low end of its
> > range,
> > > > but it's probably still a whole lot better than any of
the
> > three
> > > > chargers I've already tested). My guess is that the PFC
may
> > be
> > > > significantly better than any of the others (less waste
heat
> > on
> > > > the AC side).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Chuck Hursch
> > > > Larkspur, CA
> > > > NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> > > > www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> > > > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> > > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:28 AM 12/22/2002 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
I think this is exactly what happens. The ICE has so much static
friction that it won't rotate until the torque on it is pretty high.
I would bet there is a brake of some type on the ICE. Small ICE engines do
not have that much static friction. If 1 person can push start a small
car, I somehow doubt they are putting more energy into the ICE than it
would put out at 20mph or so.
Without a brake, you would have to accelerate at a glacial rate, and
probably couldn't go more than a few mph.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All:
I am still in the planning stage of remote mounting my battery regs and
of course I need a fuse at the battery end of the 14Ga. jacked wire, instead
of using individuals fuse holders at each battery I was thinking of using 2
inches of 16Ga. fuse link, I was going to do a test of full pack voltage on
three different fuse links to make sure I get consistent results but before
I do I though I would ask the list in case someone else has tried this and
decides it to be unsafe.
I'm guessing at the size and length of fuse link, dose anybody know of a
chart for size, length and current draw for fuse length ?
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
I think this is exactly what happens. The ICE has so much static
friction that it won't rotate until the torque on it is pretty high.
John wrote:
I would bet there is a brake of some type on the ICE. Small ICE
engines do not have that much static friction. If 1 person can push
start a small car, I somehow doubt they are putting more energy into
the ICE than it would put out at 20mph or so.
Without a brake, you would have to accelerate at a glacial rate, and
probably couldn't go more than a few mph.
The Prius ICE is not that small. Its a 4 cylinder 1.5 liter engine
with a very high 13:1 compression ratio. Anyway, turning the ICE is
not a concern. MG1 (motor/generator 1, 18Kw) is freewheeling and its
an electric motor. All power when operating as an electric car (at
least stock) is coming from MG2 (33Kw).
Here is a quick crash course on the Prius gearbox. It consists of a
single planetary gear set and 2 motor/generators. The ICE is
connected to the planet gear carrier. MG1 is connected to the sun
gear. MG2 and the output (to the final drive) is connected to the
ring gear. There is no reverse gear (reverse is electric, provided by
MG2). Unlike a normal automatic there are no brake bands, no clutch
packs and no one way clutches.
So, as long as you don't use the MG1 either as a motor or generator
you can apply power to MG2 and operate as an electric vehicle. MG1
will freewheel much easier than the ICE. To idle the Prius without
moving (like when cold) you let MG1 freewheel and the ICE can't apply
any power to the ground. To start moving you use MG1 as a generator
and apply the power generated to MG2 (of course, the Prius computers
have better tricks, stating with the ICE off and using MG2 to
accelerate and MG1 to start the ICE when it wants to).
If you want to better learn how the Prius transaxle works I suggest
you visit
<http://www.channel1.com/users/graham/MyToyotaPrius/PriusFrames.htm>
and click on the link "Understanding the Prius".
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
I have had something similar happening since the weather has gotten colder
and I've been using the car's heater. If I forget to turn the heater off
when I turn the key off, the DCP-600 controller will fault with all remote
LEDs on when I turn the key on again. I have two contactors as in the DCP
installation instructions, and the heater is connected to the switched side
of the contactors. When the heater is turned on, the DCP sees pack voltage
on the inputs before it turns on the second contactor and (I'm guessing) it
declares a fault. To fix the fault I just have to turn the key off and the
heater off, then when I turn the key on the controller starts properly.
Ralph
Bob Rice writes:
>
> Hi All;
>
> Well it finally happened1 Climbed into my faithful Raptur powered Rabbit
> for the run home, keyed in and WASN'T greeted by the familiar " Click" of
> the line switch as the capaciters charged. What? Got out to look, KNEW it
> wasn't a blown main fuze as I had heat, OK. Checked the little control fuse.
> But the controller cooling fan was running constantly, like an overheat
> mode, which it wasn't as the car had been sitting about 8 hours.Little amber
> lite was on, the one rite next to the control pots on the circuit board, yu
> can see peeking out of the purple box. Only untoward operating condition was
> that we are in a monsoon season, here in CT Rain, Rain and MORE rain. Been
> nice today, opened up car to let EVerything dry out, hood open, etc. But it
> looks l;ike MORE #$%^ Rain, now! Maybe things inside got wet? I'm thinking,
> duz yellow lite mean a wet or damp condition? Canyu dry things out with a
> hairdrier? Would it dry out on it's own, over time?
>
> Amy Ideas?
>
> Drivin' gasidisticly
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was having a problem like this and we figured out that it was because
the first contactor got pulled in by the ignition switch and while the
controller was precharging the heater was drawing current through the
precharge resistor and causing it to overheat. I even got some nasty
smells once which scared the hell out of me. I fixed the problem by
connecting the heater relay to the battery side of one of the main
contactors (the one switched by the controller) and connecting the
other end of the heater to the switched side of the other contactor
(the once switched by the key switch).
That way when the controller is precharging the heater can get its
power directly from the pack instead of through the precharge circuit.
-Jeremy
On Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 01:20 PM, Ralph Merwin wrote:
Bob,
I have had something similar happening since the weather has gotten
colder
and I've been using the car's heater. If I forget to turn the heater
off
when I turn the key off, the DCP-600 controller will fault with all
remote
LEDs on when I turn the key on again. I have two contactors as in the
DCP
installation instructions, and the heater is connected to the switched
side
of the contactors. When the heater is turned on, the DCP sees pack
voltage
on the inputs before it turns on the second contactor and (I'm
guessing) it
declares a fault. To fix the fault I just have to turn the key off
and the
heater off, then when I turn the key on the controller starts properly.
Ralph
Bob Rice writes:
Hi All;
Well it finally happened1 Climbed into my faithful Raptur powered
Rabbit
for the run home, keyed in and WASN'T greeted by the familiar "
Click" of
the line switch as the capaciters charged. What? Got out to look,
KNEW it
wasn't a blown main fuze as I had heat, OK. Checked the little
control fuse.
But the controller cooling fan was running constantly, like an
overheat
mode, which it wasn't as the car had been sitting about 8
hours.Little amber
lite was on, the one rite next to the control pots on the circuit
board, yu
can see peeking out of the purple box. Only untoward operating
condition was
that we are in a monsoon season, here in CT Rain, Rain and MORE rain.
Been
nice today, opened up car to let EVerything dry out, hood open, etc.
But it
looks l;ike MORE #$%^ Rain, now! Maybe things inside got wet? I'm
thinking,
duz yellow lite mean a wet or damp condition? Canyu dry things out
with a
hairdrier? Would it dry out on it's own, over time?
Amy Ideas?
Drivin' gasidisticly
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all -
Sincerest apologies for duplicates and that this is not personalized.... I wish
everyone the best of the season, but most of all I hope for peace. Please click
or paste this in your browser to see the most appropriate e-card I have found
for today's troubling times:
http://ecardview.hallmark.com/hmk/Website/greeting.jsp?id=EG0036-247943-11292351
If you cannot view this and would like to, please email me privately...
The personal message I have added is:
My most fervent wish is for peace around the world and, despite its commercial
content, this card says it nicely. I am pleased that such an explicit message
is available commercially and extend it to your friends and loved ones at this
meaningful time.
Love and Peace,
Charlie Richmond
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wouldn't use a fusible link unless it is rated for pack charging
voltage, I suspect that you are asking for a plasma-boy event, as the
fusible link burns back like fireworks fuse in a cloud of molten copper,
the gap spreading ever wider. As I have seen 300VDC jump 3" in smoky
air, I wouldn't try a fusible link.
I also know someone who got skingrafts from shorting 28AWG across a 144V
pack unintentionally. He had copper plated on his hands.
Seth
Richard Furniss wrote:
>
> Hi All:
>
> I am still in the planning stage of remote mounting my battery regs and
> of course I need a fuse at the battery end of the 14Ga. jacked wire, instead
> of using individuals fuse holders at each battery I was thinking of using 2
> inches of 16Ga. fuse link, I was going to do a test of full pack voltage on
> three different fuse links to make sure I get consistent results but before
> I do I though I would ask the list in case someone else has tried this and
> decides it to be unsafe.
>
> I'm guessing at the size and length of fuse link, dose anybody know of a
> chart for size, length and current draw for fuse length ?
>
> www.lasvegasev.com
> Richard Furniss
> Las Vegas, NV
> 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> Board Member, www.lveva.org
> Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I approciate the sentament, and obviously almost everything I work for, the
music I write, the EVs I design, are all in the service of the end of war.
But, um, can you remind me who you are? ;-)
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Richmond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <Charlie Richmond:>
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Seasons Wishes
> Hello all -
>
> Sincerest apologies for duplicates and that this is not personalized....
I wish
> everyone the best of the season, but most of all I hope for peace. Please
click
> or paste this in your browser to see the most appropriate e-card I have
found
> for today's troubling times:
>
>
http://ecardview.hallmark.com/hmk/Website/greeting.jsp?id=EG0036-247943-1129
2351
>
> If you cannot view this and would like to, please email me privately...
> The personal message I have added is:
>
> My most fervent wish is for peace around the world and, despite its
commercial
> content, this card says it nicely. I am pleased that such an explicit
message
> is available commercially and extend it to your friends and loved ones at
this
> meaningful time.
>
> Love and Peace,
> Charlie Richmond
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 22 Dec 2002, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> I approciate the sentament, and obviously almost everything I work for, the
> music I write, the EVs I design, are all in the service of the end of war.
> But, um, can you remind me who you are? ;-)
I don't post on the list very often but enjoy reading everything!
All the best to everyone,
Charlie
+------- Charlie Richmond - Richmond Sound Design Ltd -------+
+------------ http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com ------------+
+---------------"Performance for the Long Run"---------------+
+- To get info or join the Show Control Mailing List go to: -+
+--------- http://www.show-control.com/sclist.html ----------+
+----------- AudioBox user group discussion list: -----------+
+--------- http://www.theatre-sound.com/ablist.html ---------+
"Let distribution undo excess - And each man have enough"
- King Lear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oooh. That was to the EV list. I'm sorry..
I thought that was a personal email because it somehow confused my
EV-list-highlight-filter-thingy..
My bad.
I'll go away now.
[looks very embarrassed]
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Seasons Wishes
> I approciate the sentament, and obviously almost everything I work for,
the
> music I write, the EVs I design, are all in the service of the end of war.
> But, um, can you remind me who you are? ;-)
>
> S.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlie Richmond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <Charlie Richmond:>
> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 11:32 AM
> Subject: Seasons Wishes
>
>
> > Hello all -
> >
> > Sincerest apologies for duplicates and that this is not personalized....
> I wish
> > everyone the best of the season, but most of all I hope for peace.
Please
> click
> > or paste this in your browser to see the most appropriate e-card I have
> found
> > for today's troubling times:
> >
> >
>
http://ecardview.hallmark.com/hmk/Website/greeting.jsp?id=EG0036-247943-1129
> 2351
> >
> > If you cannot view this and would like to, please email me privately...
> > The personal message I have added is:
> >
> > My most fervent wish is for peace around the world and, despite its
> commercial
> > content, this card says it nicely. I am pleased that such an explicit
> message
> > is available commercially and extend it to your friends and loved ones
at
> this
> > meaningful time.
> >
> > Love and Peace,
> > Charlie Richmond
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Raptur Problem
>
> Bob,
>
> I have had something similar happening since the weather has gotten colder
> and I've been using the car's heater. If I forget to turn the heater off
> when I turn the key off, the DCP-600 controller will fault with all remote
> LEDs on when I turn the key on again. I have two contactors as in the DCP
> installation instructions, and the heater is connected to the switched
side
> of the contactors. When the heater is turned on, the DCP sees pack
voltage
> on the inputs before it turns on the second contactor and (I'm guessing)
it
> declares a fault. To fix the fault I just have to turn the key off and
the
> heater off, then when I turn the key on the controller starts properly.
>
> Ralph
Hi Ralph an' All;
Nope! That isn't it. My heater is connected ahead of the controller,
nice, cuz I had heat, while being towed home.I tried drying it out, with a
hairdrier, nothin' same symtyns, Fan runs contininusly, when I key in, and
line switch doesn't close. It's TRYING tio tell me something. Pulled
controller out of car and opened it up. Nice an' dry, and no zorch marks, it
died witj nary a wimper, not a bang, western style. Tony Ascrizzi fixed it
last time. Hey! Tony! Guess I'll be takin' it up to see Tony in Worchester.
Getting withdrawl symtims, already, no Christmas Trips, shopping and
parties.
Thinking of wiring up a backup controllere with a few contactors @ 30-60
and across the line, so I can ,at least, drive home, dignity intact, only
sl;ightly unbalanced batteries. Hell! They have two magnitoes in a plane,
for just the same thing.
Seeya
Bob
>
>
> Bob Rice writes:
> >
> > Hi All;
> >
> > Well it finally happened1 Climbed into my faithful Raptur powered
Rabbit
> > for the run home, keyed in and WASN'T greeted by the familiar " Click"
of
> > the line switch as the capaciters charged. What? Got out to look, KNEW
it
> > wasn't a blown main fuze as I had heat, OK. Checked the little control
fuse.
> > But the controller cooling fan was running constantly, like an overheat
> > mode, which it wasn't as the car had been sitting about 8 hours.Little
amber
> > lite was on, the one rite next to the control pots on the circuit board,
yu
> > can see peeking out of the purple box. Only untoward operating condition
was
> > that we are in a monsoon season, here in CT Rain, Rain and MORE rain.
Been
> > nice today, opened up car to let EVerything dry out, hood open, etc. But
it
> > looks l;ike MORE #$%^ Rain, now! Maybe things inside got wet? I'm
thinking,
> > duz yellow lite mean a wet or damp condition? Canyu dry things out with
a
> > hairdrier? Would it dry out on it's own, over time?
> >
> > Amy Ideas?
> >
> > Drivin' gasidisticly
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
'Twas the night before Christmas, and all though the earth
Many missing the story, of the only virgin birth
Stockings hung on the mantel, where the Bible once lay
Even Saint Nick, would have warned of this day
While the children slept, with teddy bear tight
Never hearing about Him, and the bright star that night
While parents unknowing, what joy it could bring
Instead relied on toys, and other material things
Suddenly outside, there was a loud clash
Just the lonely widow, sifting through trash
The moon glowing bright, on the fresh laden snow
Seeing her I wondered, doesn't she know?
It's Christmas eve, this is not right
The neighbors came out, a tick 'till midnight
The police soon came, and they took her away
There behind bars, she considers her stay
Folks, no reindeer, no sleigh, no Santa in red slick
Without the virgin birth, his name would just be Nick
No trees of green, with colored lights so bright
No Christmas carols sung, on a cold snowy night
Now wake up, listen up, and open your eyes
You surely know, God doesn't tell lies
The truth of old, is still right for today
No matter how hard we hide, or force it away
It's Jesus, God's son, who died for us all
He is waiting for you, to answer his call
Like it or not, we will soon realize
And all answer to God, looking in his eyes
He is the reason, I humbly write this today
He is my Savior and Lord, God's only way
No need for debate, once the truth be known
Even the little children, can see the way home
Merry Christmas!
EVeruplate
aka
Bryan in San Jose
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very interesting study on safety of different types of vehicles. Big
surprise, the mighty SUV isn't as safe as most folks think, both to the
driver & passengers and to people in other vehicles; only Pickup trucks are
worse.
http://enews.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/EETD-SUV-Safety.html
I found this link with a synopsis of the study on p. 36 of the Dec 2002
issue of Scientific American.
-Robert Nansel
--- End Message ---
