EV Digest 2510
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: How To Best Promote Our Cause?
by harsha godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fw: Re: EV1
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) fuses
by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) YT Charging with regulators
by Phil Bardsley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) please ignore
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) heater blower
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Fw: Re: EV1
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EVLN(Automakers stymied if states adopt emissions standards)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EVLN(Automakers stymied if states adopt emissions standards)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EVLN(Hybrids make UCS case at LA auto show)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: How To Best Promote Our Cause?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: News from Evercel
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee:
An EV project ala Habitat is a wonderful idea. You are absolutely
right in that the poor, drive polluters and can ill-afford to
fix/replace that jalopy. Can you flesh it out a little more as to the
donor_car, range etc? Perhaps others would jump in and fill the gaps.
Regards
Harsha Godavari
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> On 2 Jan 2003 at 21:13, harsha godavari wrote:
> >> 1) exhibit them in different cities (with high interest in EVs)
> >> 2) Open an EV-dealership on a partime basis
>
> David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> > I think if I were going to do this, I'd establish a partnership
> > with an experienced and recognized industrial EV dealer.
>
> Here's an idea I mentioned before. Perhaps I should mention it again.
>
> Habitat for Humanity (HFH) is a charitable organization that builds
> houses for poor people. Basically, you sign up on their waiting list,
> and volunteer to work on building the home of whoever is on top of the
> list. The more you work, the more "sweat equity" you earn, moving your
> name higher on the list. When you get to the top and they build your
> house, you own it, free and clear!
>
> It encourages people to work toward a goal, and teaches them basic
> skills. They have to show up, and do the work. Doing the various
> painting, drywalling, nailing, etc. teaches them the skills necessary to
> maintain their own home. And they take care of it, because they EARNED
> it -- it's theirs!
>
> The program has been so successful that HFH has become the largest home
> builders in the world.
>
> How about starting something similar for building EVs? Poor people have
> serious transportation problems, due to our country's lack of focus on
> mass transit. The cars the poor can afford are some of the worst
> polluters and get the worst gas mileage, and are being used right in the
> cities where pollution is the worst. Replacing them with clean, cheap,
> EVs should be a major help to their family budgets.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a hard time getting excited about anything from GM. Too much hype
and too little action.
And it looks like a golf cart to me.
At 11:41 AM 1/3/2003, you wrote:
Thought that this might be of interest to the list. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Saturn Customer Assistance Center" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:38 AM
Subject: RE: Re: EV1
> Hello Lawrence,
>
> Thanks for writing back to Saturn.
>
> Yes, GM plans to donate a few of these vehicles to museums and technical
> institutions. However, the deadline to apply was June, 2001. We
appreciate
> your interest in the EV1. GM is currently experimenting with a smaller
> "neighborhood" vehicle called the "Pathway". For more information about
> this, you can visit the website at www.pathway-research.com
>
> Thanks again for your interest in the EV1. Please don't hesitate to
contact
> us again if we can be of further assistance to you.
>
> Have a great weekend,
>
> Carol Duncan
> Saturn Customer Assistance Center
> 1-583546
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: 01/02/2003 16:43:47
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EV1
>
> I hate to be pushey but what will be the fate of the EV1s. I heard that
they
> will be crushed to avoid legal responsibility. I have however learned
that
> MIT got one sans the batteries. Will you be donating some to educational
> institutions? If so how might I apply? Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Saturn Customer Assistance Center" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 12:18 PM
> Subject: RE: EV1
>
>
> > Dear Lawrence,
> >
> > Thanks for writing to Saturn. We appreciate your interest in the EV1.
> >
> > General Motors is no longer producing the EV1 and they are not available
> for
> > sale.:o( We appreciate your contacting us and if we can further assist
> you,
> > please don't hesitate to contact us. You can email us again, or if you
> > prefer, you can call us at 1-800-522-5000 and the consultant who answers
> the
> > phone will be happy to assist you.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Carol Duncan
> > Saturn Customer Assistance Center
> > 1-583546
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: 01/02/2003 04:10:40
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: EV1
> >
> > Email - :[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> > Category - :None of the above:
> > EmailSubject - :EV1:
> > Date - :20030102:
> > Time - :050823:
> >
> > F.Name - :Lawrence:
> > L.Name - :Rhodes:
> >
> > Preferred - :E-mail:
> > Phone - ::
> > Opt in - ::
> > Zip - :94110:
> >
> > Message -
> > I would like to purchase an EV1 in any condition except crushed. This
in
> no
> > joke. I am a car collector and would like to have one for my collection
> > running or not. With batteries or not. Thank you. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......I
> > would not need spare parts and would sign an agreement to that
> > effect...........
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The brushless motor/generator looks pretty good to me. I will be putting
one in a motorcycle conversion soon. I'll let you know in a couple of months.
I can't wait to hear more about their hybrid diesel/electric motorcycle. I
might trade up. :-)
At 03:40 PM 1/3/2003, you wrote:
Has anyone successfully created a parallel or series hybrid capable of at
least 300 miles? Any reviews of the still-alive eCycle
motor/generator? Thanks!
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I've got a new pack of 24 Optima YTs for my EV and a Zivan NG3 that
needs to be reprogrammed for them. My concern is finding the best
algorithm to charge the pack for the most cycles. No one seems to be
getting anywhere near the number of cycles that Optima advertises, even
if they follow Optima's recommended charging algorithm. I've seen lots
of comments about this on the list recently, and I've read a few
documents on the web. The advice is conflicting. I'm hoping that you can
guide me.
The conflicting advice I'm seeing is in how to handle the final stage of
charging after bulk charging is complete. Optima recommends a final
"conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour. It's not clear whether they
recommend letting the voltage rise at will, but I think that's the case.
The issues seem to be in two areas: battery chemistry and equalizing the
battery string. In battery chemistry, as I understand it, the problem is
balancing the need for higher voltage to polarize the negative plate
(and prevent sulphation) against the dual problems of venting and
positive-plate corrosion that result from higher voltage. For equalizing
the string, this stage seems to help as well, and in fact many people
refer to the last stage of charging as the "equalizing" stage. Some list
members have written about longer charging at lower current, often at
unlimited voltage, others of interrupted-current charging (from the NREL
article), and others of lower voltage charging (e.g., the Powercheq
article).
Has anyone had experience charging a string of YTs with regulators? Does
the use of regulators change the algorithm for this final stage, or is
battery chemistry the determining factor? What do you recommend?
I'd appreciate your help very much before I destroy my expensive new
batteries! Thanks.
--
Phil Bardsley
Research Associate
Carolina Population Center
Tel: 919-966-2825
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
only a test!!
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had a problem with my heater fan in WATTABMR- it seizes up after
running for 60 seconds or so-leaving me with no heat or defrost. The
BMW replacement is outrageously expensive. I have been looking for some
replacement blower that will fit into the same space without much luck
until I saw an ad on the Tradin' Post.
This man wants $40 for the 12 volt blower that he has which looks to me
like it will fit admirably in the space available.
Is that a reasonable price?
Any other suggestions?
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, my 1995 Club Car looks like this GM Gem.
I paid $200 bucks for the chassis and replaced all wiring, control and
batteries.
Is this GM's answer to a CARB credit?
Pretty scarry.
I think my next new car purchase will be a Toyota or Honda built mostly
in the USA.
So much for globalization.....
Rod
Gordon Niessen wrote:
I have a hard time getting excited about anything from GM. Too much
hype and too little action.
And it looks like a golf cart to me.
At 11:41 AM 1/3/2003, you wrote:
Thought that this might be of interest to the list. Lawrence
Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Saturn Customer Assistance Center" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:38 AM
Subject: RE: Re: EV1
> Hello Lawrence,
>
> Thanks for writing back to Saturn.
>
> Yes, GM plans to donate a few of these vehicles to museums and
technical
> institutions. However, the deadline to apply was June, 2001. We
appreciate
> your interest in the EV1. GM is currently experimenting with a
smaller
> "neighborhood" vehicle called the "Pathway". For more information
about
> this, you can visit the website at www.pathway-research.com
>
> Thanks again for your interest in the EV1. Please don't hesitate to
contact
> us again if we can be of further assistance to you.
>
> Have a great weekend,
>
> Carol Duncan
> Saturn Customer Assistance Center
> 1-583546
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: 01/02/2003 16:43:47
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EV1
>
> I hate to be pushey but what will be the fate of the EV1s. I heard
that
they
> will be crushed to avoid legal responsibility. I have however learned
that
> MIT got one sans the batteries. Will you be donating some to
educational
> institutions? If so how might I apply? Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Saturn Customer Assistance Center" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 12:18 PM
> Subject: RE: EV1
>
>
> > Dear Lawrence,
> >
> > Thanks for writing to Saturn. We appreciate your interest in the
EV1.
> >
> > General Motors is no longer producing the EV1 and they are not
available
> for
> > sale.:o( We appreciate your contacting us and if we can further
assist
> you,
> > please don't hesitate to contact us. You can email us again, or
if you
> > prefer, you can call us at 1-800-522-5000 and the consultant who
answers
> the
> > phone will be happy to assist you.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Carol Duncan
> > Saturn Customer Assistance Center
> > 1-583546
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: 01/02/2003 04:10:40
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: EV1
> >
> > Email - :[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> > Category - :None of the above:
> > EmailSubject - :EV1:
> > Date - :20030102:
> > Time - :050823:
> >
> > F.Name - :Lawrence:
> > L.Name - :Rhodes:
> >
> > Preferred - :E-mail:
> > Phone - ::
> > Opt in - ::
> > Zip - :94110:
> >
> > Message -
> > I would like to purchase an EV1 in any condition except crushed.
This
in
> no
> > joke. I am a car collector and would like to have one for my
collection
> > running or not. With batteries or not. Thank you. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......I
> > would not need spare parts and would sign an agreement to that
> > effect...........
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Automakers stymied if states adopt emissions standards)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
AP World Politics California emission standards should be
moderated, Chrysler says Thu Jan 2, 9:21 PM ET
By GARY GENTILE, AP Business Writer
LOS ANGELES - Chrysler Group President Dieter Zetsche called
the California market both important and problematic for
U.S. auto makers looking to increase market share while
meeting stringent environmental demands.
Chrysler wants to increase its market share in the state
from 8 percent to 9.5 percent by 2004, but also wants to
work with state regulators to moderate mandates for
zero-emission vehicles, Zetsche said Thursday.
"We want to work together with the state of California to
find common ground," Zetsche told journalists at the opening
of the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show.
Chrysler will produce its first hybrid pickup truck later
this year. But Zetsche said that hybrid technology, which
combines a gasoline-powered engine and an electric motor, is
not a viable long-term technological or commercial
alternative.
"Hybrids have yet to prove they make business sense," he
said.
Both Toyota and Honda already sell hybrid cars: Toyota alone
has sold more than 120,000 since it introduced its first,
the Prius, in 2000.
California has mandated that an increasing number of new
cars and trucks sold in the state emit no pollution.
The mandate was to have taken effect this year, but auto
manufacturers won a preliminary injunction in June 2002 that
delays implementation until 2005. Meanwhile, the California
Air Resources Board will review the 13-year-old
zero-emissions vehicle mandate at its Feb. 26 meeting,
spokeswoman Gennet Paauwe said. The proposed changes will be
made public Jan. 10, she said.
Earlier Thursday, Zetsche said Chrysler intends to have a
hybrid car available by 2007, when rival General Motors has
said it intends to begin making a hybrid car.
But Zetsche said that clean-burning diesel fuel is the best
short-term alternative while waiting for fuel cell
technology ? using hydrogen and oxygen to generate power ?
to be perfected.
"Diesel has the potential of powering vehicles people will
demand," he said.
Dan Becker, director of the Sierra Club (news - web sites)'s
global warming (news - web sites) and energy program,
scoffed at that idea in an interview.
"If Zetsche thinks the way of the future is 19th century
diesel technology instead of 21st century hybrid technology,
his company will go further down," Becker said.
Chrysler announced in November it would test market a
diesel-powered Jeep Liberty sport utility vehicle in North
America starting in 2004.
Zetsche said it is a mistake to think that auto makers have
technology readily available to both reduce emissions and
power cars with the styling and features consumers demand.
"Fuel cell vehicles are not yet commercially viable and
electric vehicles may never be," he said.
He said his fear is that auto makers may be stymied if
states adopt individual emissions standards.
California remains the single largest market for auto
makers, yet domestic car makers sell less here than their
foreign competitors.
Imports command 58 percent of the market in California,
Zetsche said.
To increase market share in the state, Zetsche said Chrysler
recently appointed an advertising team exclusively for
California. Half of all advertising dollars will be spent to
attract Hispanic buyers, he said.
Zetsche also announced that a U.S. plant to produce a new
four-cylinder gasoline engine as part of a joint venture
between DaimlerChrysler AG, Hyundai Motor Co. and Mitsubishi
Motors Corp. (news - web sites) will be jointly managed by
the three companies.
The companies agreed in December to jointly manage the U.S.
plant, Zetsche said.
The companies will announce the location of the plant within
the next three months, Zetsche said. He declined to say how
many people will be employed at the highly automated plant.
"It won't be a huge number," he said.
The U.S. plant, which will be completed in 2005, is one of
three to be built by the companies. The others will be in
South Korea (news - web sites ) and Japan. Until Thursday's
announcement it had been expected that each partner would
individually manage one plant. Hyundai is expected to start
producing engines at the South Korean plant in 2004, with
Mitsubishi and Chrysler starting the following year.
About 40 percent of the 1.5 million aluminum engines
expected to be produced at the three plants will be produced
in the United States, although all three companies will own
an equal share of the joint venture, he said.
The joint venture was announced in May.
-
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. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
>
> Has anyone successfully created a parallel or series hybrid capable of
> at least 300 miles?
Sure! The Toyota Prius and Honda Insight and Civic.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Jan 2003 at 20:01, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> Chrysler wants to increase its market share in the state
> from 8 percent to 9.5 percent by 2004 ...
Presumably by advertising (as they have recently) such socially valuable
accessories as their excessively bright, in-the-other-guy's eyes "off-road"
roof mounted driving light bar for the Jeep Liberty. As one auto exec
admitted in "High and Mighty," the only time these go off road is when the
owner misses his driveway at 3am.
The TEVan and EPIC projects notwithstanding, DC has been the most
obstreperous of the US automakers with respect to EVs. It's disgusting to
see what GM is doing to the EV1, but DC never even tried ^that^ hard. The
quotations in this post are exactly what we should expect from them.
I can't imagine myself ever buying another DC product -- but then I decided
that many years ago, right after dumping the last one I owned.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As Peter pointed out, why bother making a hybrid conversion
when you can get an affordable used hybrid that has a
700 mile range per tank of middle east juice.
UC Davis used the automaker donated components to make a
plug in SUV to show the automakers it can be done.
Point of EV List discussion:
Perhaps we need to look at what components would be used
if people did their own plug-in hybrid conversions and
compare the performance, price, and pollution factors.
I assume they would use less costly components than the
CVT and AC drive the UC Davis plug in hybrid had.
A hybrid conversion using those lower cost EV components
might not gain any mileage over the same vehicle as an
ICE. The pusher driver at woodburn told me his mileage
was a-wash with just driving an ICE.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Hybrids make UCS case at LA auto show)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.tribnet.com/24hour/healthscience/story/700551p-5180388c.html
Hybrid drivers make case at Los Angeles auto show
By GARY GENTILE, AP Business Writer
LOS ANGELES (January 3, 1:20 p.m. PST) - More than 70 hybrid
cars were parked outside the Los Angeles Convention Center
on Friday to send a message to U.S. automakers: There is a
demand for fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly
vehicles.
The gathering, with its mix of everyday hybrid owners as
well as Hollywood celebrities, contrasted with the muscle
cars and gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles inside at the
Greater Los Angeles Auto Show.
"We're here to show that people are interested in something
to promote clean air with less fuel," said Jessie Williams,
who has a Toyota Prius.
Actress Nancy Allen traded her Volvo in for a Prius last
July.
"It's so peppy," she said. "Every day I drive it, I feel I'm
giving something back to the environment and giving
something back to myself."
The protest came as the Union of Concerned Scientists
released a report concluding that American-made cars and
trucks could reach an average of 60 miles per gallon by the
end of the next decade by adopting the best hybrid
technology.
Hybrid cars combine a gasoline engine with an electric
motor. Some cars, like the Prius, use the electric motor
exclusively at low speeds, while others, such as Honda's
Civic, use power from both at all speeds.
Hybrids cost more than conventional cars. But buyers can
qualify for a federal tax deduction and local tax incentives
in some areas.
Ford is producing a hybrid SUV and introduced a
reduced-emissions Focus at the show Thursday. General Motors
is expected to announce its hybrid strategy at the North
American International Auto Show in Detroit next week.
Chrysler Group president Dieter Zetsche downplayed hybrids
in a speech Thursday, saying that fuel cell technology is
the ultimate answer and that improving existing diesel
technology is a better short-term alternative.
But Zetsche said Chrysler, which makes a hybrid Dodge Ram
truck, will have a hybrid passenger car in production by
2007, when GM is planning to introduce its hybrid car.
Union of Concerned Scientists analyst David Friedman said
the technology is not as important as domestic automakers'
willingness to put fuel-efficient cars into production now.
"I don't think hybrids are the only option," he said. "It's
about giving consumers more options. Diesel is interesting.
Let's put it in the mix and let the market go at it."
Actress Donna Mills stopped driving her Lexus when she
bought one of the first Prius hybrids 2 1/2 years ago.
"Enough already with being dependent on foreign countries
for oil or drilling in the Arctic for oil," she said Friday.
"People want these cars. People love them. Make them."
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Harsha and All,
--- harsha godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I understand that several EV's are available
> overseas, commercially. If
> one were to import half-a-dozen examples from those
> countries and :
>
> 1) exhibit them in different cities (with high
> interest in EVs)
> 2) Open an EV-dealership on a partime basis
>
> How is that for wild dreaming :-) Do we have a rich
> Uncle?
You can't sell 4 wh EV's in the US without
following FedDOT regs. The only ones easily brought in
are 3 wh ones reg as motorcycles.
It's the cost of these regs that have kept EV
companies from starting up as it adds greatly to the
cost of the star-up.
The Chinese EV scooters and motorcycles are
already here. I work on some to keep them running and
teach people how to treat the batts for long life.
I like Lee's idea but maintaince costs, insurance
would eat up a poor persons money.
Maybe have them, vols or clients, build,
maintain, 1 person enclosed transport modules limited
to 20 mph so in many states no DL, reg nessesary as
they are considered wheelchairs, bicycles in Fla and
many states. This keeps costs down and creates jobs
where they are needed.
This would give reliable transport of a 20 mile
radius at a low capital, running costs while cutting
pollution, parking allowing many more people served.
I've been using 1 for my 15x2 mile commute. It
adds only 20 minutes to my commute but at almost 0
costs.
As I use a golf cart motor in it I can pull a
trailer with 8 sheets of ply and 2x4's or 400+ lbs of
whatever for 25+ miles.
The next step up would be a 3 wh like my Freedom
EV design would save much costs over a conversion
while performing better. Repairs much easier, cheaper
too.
A regular size EV would just keep them poor by
using up cash for insurance, reg, running costs
compared to the module.
>
> Regards
> Harsha Godavari
>
> Marvin Campbell wrote:
>
> > People who see my EVs always seem genuinely
> amazed. They've never seen
> > anything like them. Somehow we need to increase
> the public awareness of the
> > fact that the technology exists today to make a
> BEV with a range of 300
> > miles per charge.
But 300 mile range would really raise the costs.
100-150 would do for 80% of the population.
> >
> > Solar energy, biodiesel, renewables, et al., all
> just make good sense. Most
Not only good sense, but will add many jobs
being lost to the productivity gains that tech has
made. Biomass energy could revive the farm industry
while making the US more secure.
The sad thing is the corperate welfare subidies
going to the oil companies is what keeps biofuels from
being able to compete cost wise. Without the oil
subidies, biodiesel, ethanol, methanol would cost
effective now.
I sold my ICE car and went completely EV because
I can't see paying all that money to OPEC, ect.
> > people on the street have no idea what is possible
> for an individual to
> > achieve with technology that is available today.
Sadly true, but there are enough people who want
EV's to get started and will teach others that EV's
are where it's at if they can buy 1.
> >
> > My New Year's resolution is to stop burning
> gasoline. Using BEVs and
> > biodiesel I will be able to pull that off with
> minimal change in my daily
> > routine.
> >
> > If we stop burning gas we'll be doing a lot more
> damage to OPEC than our
> > smart bombs can.
I agree on that!!!
jerry dycus
> >
> > J. Marvin Campbell
> > Culver City, CA
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--- Begin Message ---
>The pusher driver at woodburn told me his mileage
>was a-wash with just driving an ICE.
Yes Bruce, that's true, my Pusher gets about 25-30 MPG -BUT- you can count
on that being a heckuva lot better than anyone else who arrived at Woodburn
either towing or trailering their EV's to the show, including yourself!
AND, it runs on a 100% renewable fuel, Biodiesel!
Not trying to pick a fight, I've come to the realization that the Pusher
concept works great for getting my EV where it needs to be when that place
is too far to navigate on battery power, shows, energy fairs, etc. If I
only need to get my body and some tools around, I now drive my diesel
Rabbit (50+ MPG on Biodiesel). It's easier than towing a trailer, it
attracts a ~lot~ less attention (not that I don't mind performing now and
then), it gets almost as much mileage as the production "hybrids", and only
cost me $250.
Hybrids have their place, but trying to convert your EV into one is not the
ideal platform. For one thing, I could do without about 900 pounds of
batteries when I'm operating in hybrid mode, but those batteries are needed
when the EV is stand-alone. For another, having six tires on the road, two
transaxles, and two not-so aerodynamic bodies moving through the air tends
to eat into the mileage.
Asking if anyone has made a successful hybrid out of an EV? Answer is, yes
but not a very good one. Is the concept sound? You bet, but the vehicle
would need to be designed with optimal ICE and EV operation in mind.
Ground-up engineering as a hybrid would make the mileage savings more
pronounced, as well as the costs.
As for Toyota and Honda, *neither* of them make a true hybrid. Oh yes, I'm
going to reopen that debate again. If you were able to make an ICE assist
system with rubber bands that stores and supplies excess power to extend
the range of the gasoline power plant, it ~still~ wouldn't be a hybrid in
my opinion. Hybrid = more than one source of energy supply. Prius and
Insight don't do that (yet), as much as some of us wish they would.
Allowing the driver to select some alternate fuel besides evil gasoline
would be a big step forward, as would allowing charging from an external
source, but we've all gone through that already, eh?
The Pusher concept works pretty well for a collection of wrecking yard
cast-offs assembled into a home made hybrid. I still get a laugh when I
read those messages about the ICE generator in a trailer, though. Give it a
try, that's what I did. Some things work, some things don't. Fortunately,
my experiment is still useful for getting my EV long distances, even if it
doesn't provide me with astounding performance or mileage.
If it weren't for kooks like us, who would provide the auto industry with
their entertainment?
-S
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Bardsley wrote:
> I've got a new pack of 24 Optima YTs for my EV and a Zivan NG3 that
> needs to be reprogrammed for them. My concern is finding the best
> algorithm to charge the pack for the most cycles... The advice is
> conflicting. I'm hoping that you can guide me.
Indeed, you have hit squarely upon the problem. Now that you've spent a
fortune for a nice new pack of batteries, what do you do to maximize
their life?
Maximizing battery life is mostly a matter of what you DON'T do to it.
Don't discharge it too deeply, or too quickly. Don't charge it too much,
or too little. Don't let it sit around in a partially discharged state.
Avoid temperature extremes. Make sure connections are clean and tight.
Don't let it run low on water.
The battery is damaged slightly by every mistake. The damage is
cumulative. When the battery has accumulated enough damage, it is shot.
The manufacturer's charging algorithms are chosen to insure that the
battery survives the warranty period; not to maximize life. They
generally err on the side of overcharging. This shortens the maximum
life, but prevents early failures from undercharging.
The manufacturers also assume that you will murder the battery from
other types of abuse before charging abuse becomes a factor. If you
deeply discharge it on every cycle, or routinely draw huge currents, or
use it at high temperatures, the battery will die young no matter how
perfectly you charge it.
But, let's assume you are very careful to avoid all these other types of
damage. How can you minimize charging damage, and so maximize life? I'll
assume we're talking about Optimas, though this information applies to
any AGM.
First, you need a charger that has reasonably good voltage and current
regulation. If the charger can't hold a reasonably accurate voltage or
current, all bets are off.
Second, you need sufficient instrumentation so you know what is going
on. Measure individual battery voltages, either manually or with an
automated system. Then control the charging of each battery according to
its needs. The batteries will NOT be the same!
Third, you will need to alter your charging algorithm according to the
behaviour of your batteries and how you use them. There is no one
"perfect" algorithm that always works. You have to keep tweaking it. (If
there was a perfect algorithm, don't you think it would have been
discovered in the 150+ years we've been using lead-acid batteries? :-)
> The conflicting advice I'm seeing is in how to handle the final
> stage of charging after bulk charging is complete.
Yes. Your charger can do pretty much anything between about 20% and 80%
SOC. Since you're not supposed to go under 20% SOC, that part of the
charging algorithm is less important. Almost all the differences between
charging algorithms is in what happens to take the battery from 80% to
100% SOC.
> Optima recommends a final "conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour.
My opinion is that this is too much. It amounts to a full equalization
on every cycle. I would only do it if you are deeply discharging on
every cycle. If you are limiting your depth of discharge to prolong
life, then only do this "conditioning" charge as needed (i.e. when you
observe differences in state of charge between batteries). Or, use a
much lower current for a longer period of time.
> It's not clear whether they recommend letting the voltage rise at
> will, but I think that's the case.
You basically HAVE to let it rise at will, because when you apply 2 amps
to a fully charged AGM, the voltage WILL shoot way up. If you don't let
the voltage rise, then you won't get the current, and equalization will
take far longer.
> In battery chemistry, as I understand it, the problem is balancing
> the need for higher voltage to polarize the negative plate (and
> prevent sulphation) against the dual problems of venting and
> positive-plate corrosion that result from higher voltage. For
> equalizing the string, this stage seems to help as well, and in
> fact many people refer to the last stage of charging as the
> "equalizing" stage. Some list members have written about longer
> charging at lower current, often at unlimited voltage, others of
> interrupted-current charging (from the NREL article), and others
> of lower voltage charging (e.g., the Powercheq article).
Look at it this way. If you have no means to apply different charging
currents to different batteries (i.e. no regulators, balancers,
individual chargers, etc.) then the batteries WILL get out of balance.
Even if your load and charge currents are identical (all batteries
always in series), the batteries themselves are not all identical, and
have different charge/discharge efficiencies.
So, SOMETHING has to charge them at different rates. The battery
manufacturer's algorithms assume you will do this by deliberate
overcharging; forcing more amphours into a fully charged battery. Optima
is telling you to put in an extra 2 amphours (2 amps for 1 hour). If a
battery in the string isn't yet ful, it charges an extra 2 amphours. If
a battery is already full, this energy just goes up as heat and gassing.
But they are saying there is enough air space inside to contain this
amount of gas without venting, so it can be slowly recombined back into
water later.
It doesn't especially matter how you put in this 2 amphours: 2a for 1hr,
1a for 2hr, 0.5a for 4 hrs, etc. Since the rate of recombination is a
few tenths of an amp, currents this low can be applied for days without
venting.
The "pulse" algorithms are doing the same things, but applying a higher
current but at a lower duty cycle. It comes back to the same thing in
the end. There might be some minor advantages to it, but the results are
far from conclusive.
> Does the use of regulators change the algorithm for this final stage
Yes! If you clamp battery voltage, then it will take far longer to
equalize. Clamp it too low, and it will NEVER equalize.
But, regulators are a good idea because you no longer have to
deliberately overcharge the full batteries to get the weaker ones up to
"full".
Finally, keep in mind that the "correct" voltage and current for
equalization changes with temperature, and as the battery ages.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ones with self discharge problems: How hot did they get relative to the
other ones in the string?
Were they only hotter during charge or did they stay hotter all the time?
Does the factory state there is a danger of a hot short (boiled
electrolyte), warm short (too hot to touch) or a cold short (detectable by
waving your hand over the pack)?
Did you discharge the ones with the self discharge problem when you removed
them from service? They should be discharged when shipped or stored
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: News from Evercel
> Two of them have developed high self-discharge rates which would appear to
> be typical dendrite formation. The others are all cranking along just
fine.
> The Accord is over at Dave Cloud's being outfitted with tow bars, getting
> the vac pump mounted, the flywheel balanced, and some other
> nitpicking-detail kind of things. I should be picking it up this weekend.
>
> (I love having a local EV mechanic. ;-))
>
> S.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:42 PM 1/3/03, you wrote:
Hi all,
I've got a new pack of 24 Optima YTs for my EV and a Zivan NG3 that needs
to be reprogrammed for them. My concern is finding the best algorithm to
charge the pack for the most cycles. No one seems to be getting anywhere
near the number of cycles that Optima advertises, even if they follow
Optima's recommended charging algorithm.
Actually, few folks follow the Optima algorithm.
I've seen lots of comments about this on the list recently, and I've
read a few documents on the web. The advice is conflicting. I'm hoping
that you can guide me.
The conflicting advice I'm seeing is in how to handle the final stage of
charging after bulk charging is complete. Optima recommends a final
"conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour. It's not clear whether they
recommend letting the voltage rise at will, but I think that's the case.
Let the voltage go wild.
The issues seem to be in two areas: battery chemistry and equalizing the
battery string. In battery chemistry, as I understand it, the problem is
balancing the need for higher voltage to polarize the negative plate (and
prevent sulphation) against the dual problems of venting and
positive-plate corrosion that result from higher voltage.
You are 100% correct.
For equalizing the string, this stage seems to help as well, and in fact
many people refer to the last stage of charging as the "equalizing" stage.
Some list members have written about longer charging at lower current,
often at unlimited voltage,
No proof that lower currents will work correctly. They might, but
they might not.
others of interrupted-current charging (from the NREL article), and others
of lower voltage charging (e.g., the Powercheq article).
Interrupted charging in the finish cycle does, indeed, prolong the
cycle life greatly. Its a fact. I would recommend it. Water loss is greatly
reduced.
Has anyone had experience charging a string of YTs with regulators? Does
the use of regulators change the algorithm for this final stage, or is
battery chemistry the determining factor? What do you recommend?
You need to use regulators (or balancers) to keep the batteries in
balance. This is a separate issue from the negative plate charging. If you
don't use regs or balancers on long strings, you will shorten the life of
both the "early birds" and the "late comers". It is really brutal to brand
new packs that are building capacity during the first few cycles. The
capacity does not build evenly and the pack gets way out of balance on the
first few cycles. Without regulation, the early birds get seriously
overcharged and lose quite a bit of water. The late comers don't get fully
charged and may reverse on discharge. This really wounds them.
Run regs or balancers or modular finish charging of some sort.
With regs, you run the charger until all the regs are blinking and
the current has gone down to 1 amp or less. Then disconnect the regs and
pump 2 amps through the pack for an hour. If you like, pump 2 amps at 50%
duty cycle and a period of one minute (30 seconds on and then 30 seconds
off) for 2 hours.
Although not proven by experiment, it is very likely that you
could reduce the duration of the finish charge based of the depth of
discharge. Alternatively, you might not do it every cycle if the cycles are
less than 40% DOD. This is just an educated guess, however.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
