EV Digest 2511
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: News from Evercel
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: heater blower
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ampmeter 10 to 20 amp 2"
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(Automakers stymied if states adopt emissions standards)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Fw: Clean burning diesel
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) End ImageReady Slices
by vintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: News from Evercel
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fw: Clean burning diesel
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) OT ,Re: Fw: Clean burning diesel
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EVLN(Automakers stymied if states adopt emissions standards)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> The ones with self discharge problems: How hot did they get relative to
the
> other ones in the string?
Still cool as cucumbers, just appeared to be at zero SoC when all the others
were 'full' (after sitting for slightly less than a month, they were at 10V
and 11V, respectively, after a short (5 mile) drive while the others were
still 'full'.
> Were they only hotter during charge or did they stay hotter all the time?
Not noticably hotter. Very slow discharge.
> Does the factory state there is a danger of a hot short (boiled
> electrolyte), warm short (too hot to touch) or a cold short (detectable by
> waving your hand over the pack)?
They don't say. Haven't seen any of the above yet.
> Did you discharge the ones with the self discharge problem when you
removed
> them from service? They should be discharged when shipped or stored
No, they were 'stored' for a month fully charged.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are two questions you have to ask yourself:
1. What do comparable products cost?
2. How much do you want the heater to work?
You can look at some vendor information to help answer #1.
West Marine has bilge blowers at
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearch?keyword=blowe
r&advanced=YES&searchDeptId=12
that cost from $23 to $65.
The vendor question says the price is about right.
I can't help you with #2. Is it worth $40 to have heat in the car and have
clear windows when it rains? To me, the safety aspect of driving the car
with clear windows is worth more than $40. I can't drive my electric in the
rain because of this problem. I wish I could fix mine for only $40.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 6:56 PM
Subject: heater blower
> I have had a problem with my heater fan in WATTABMR- it seizes up after
> running for 60 seconds or so-leaving me with no heat or defrost. The
> BMW replacement is outrageously expensive. I have been looking for some
> replacement blower that will fit into the same space without much luck
> until I saw an ad on the Tradin' Post.
> This man wants $40 for the 12 volt blower that he has which looks to me
> like it will fit admirably in the space available.
> Is that a reasonable price?
> Any other suggestions?
> Michael B.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, Lee. You typed another "keeper."
Keep them coming.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: YT Charging with regulators
> Phil Bardsley wrote:
> > I've got a new pack of 24 Optima YTs for my EV and a Zivan NG3 that
> > needs to be reprogrammed for them. My concern is finding the best
> > algorithm to charge the pack for the most cycles... The advice is
> > conflicting. I'm hoping that you can guide me.
>
> Indeed, you have hit squarely upon the problem. Now that you've spent a
> fortune for a nice new pack of batteries, what do you do to maximize
> their life?
>
> Maximizing battery life is mostly a matter of what you DON'T do to it.
> Don't discharge it too deeply, or too quickly. Don't charge it too much,
> or too little. Don't let it sit around in a partially discharged state.
> Avoid temperature extremes. Make sure connections are clean and tight.
> Don't let it run low on water.
>
> The battery is damaged slightly by every mistake. The damage is
> cumulative. When the battery has accumulated enough damage, it is shot.
>
> The manufacturer's charging algorithms are chosen to insure that the
> battery survives the warranty period; not to maximize life. They
> generally err on the side of overcharging. This shortens the maximum
> life, but prevents early failures from undercharging.
>
> The manufacturers also assume that you will murder the battery from
> other types of abuse before charging abuse becomes a factor. If you
> deeply discharge it on every cycle, or routinely draw huge currents, or
> use it at high temperatures, the battery will die young no matter how
> perfectly you charge it.
>
> But, let's assume you are very careful to avoid all these other types of
> damage. How can you minimize charging damage, and so maximize life? I'll
> assume we're talking about Optimas, though this information applies to
> any AGM.
>
> First, you need a charger that has reasonably good voltage and current
> regulation. If the charger can't hold a reasonably accurate voltage or
> current, all bets are off.
>
> Second, you need sufficient instrumentation so you know what is going
> on. Measure individual battery voltages, either manually or with an
> automated system. Then control the charging of each battery according to
> its needs. The batteries will NOT be the same!
>
> Third, you will need to alter your charging algorithm according to the
> behaviour of your batteries and how you use them. There is no one
> "perfect" algorithm that always works. You have to keep tweaking it. (If
> there was a perfect algorithm, don't you think it would have been
> discovered in the 150+ years we've been using lead-acid batteries? :-)
>
> > The conflicting advice I'm seeing is in how to handle the final
> > stage of charging after bulk charging is complete.
>
> Yes. Your charger can do pretty much anything between about 20% and 80%
> SOC. Since you're not supposed to go under 20% SOC, that part of the
> charging algorithm is less important. Almost all the differences between
> charging algorithms is in what happens to take the battery from 80% to
> 100% SOC.
>
> > Optima recommends a final "conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour.
>
> My opinion is that this is too much. It amounts to a full equalization
> on every cycle. I would only do it if you are deeply discharging on
> every cycle. If you are limiting your depth of discharge to prolong
> life, then only do this "conditioning" charge as needed (i.e. when you
> observe differences in state of charge between batteries). Or, use a
> much lower current for a longer period of time.
>
> > It's not clear whether they recommend letting the voltage rise at
> > will, but I think that's the case.
>
> You basically HAVE to let it rise at will, because when you apply 2 amps
> to a fully charged AGM, the voltage WILL shoot way up. If you don't let
> the voltage rise, then you won't get the current, and equalization will
> take far longer.
>
> > In battery chemistry, as I understand it, the problem is balancing
> > the need for higher voltage to polarize the negative plate (and
> > prevent sulphation) against the dual problems of venting and
> > positive-plate corrosion that result from higher voltage. For
> > equalizing the string, this stage seems to help as well, and in
> > fact many people refer to the last stage of charging as the
> > "equalizing" stage. Some list members have written about longer
> > charging at lower current, often at unlimited voltage, others of
> > interrupted-current charging (from the NREL article), and others
> > of lower voltage charging (e.g., the Powercheq article).
>
> Look at it this way. If you have no means to apply different charging
> currents to different batteries (i.e. no regulators, balancers,
> individual chargers, etc.) then the batteries WILL get out of balance.
> Even if your load and charge currents are identical (all batteries
> always in series), the batteries themselves are not all identical, and
> have different charge/discharge efficiencies.
>
> So, SOMETHING has to charge them at different rates. The battery
> manufacturer's algorithms assume you will do this by deliberate
> overcharging; forcing more amphours into a fully charged battery. Optima
> is telling you to put in an extra 2 amphours (2 amps for 1 hour). If a
> battery in the string isn't yet ful, it charges an extra 2 amphours. If
> a battery is already full, this energy just goes up as heat and gassing.
> But they are saying there is enough air space inside to contain this
> amount of gas without venting, so it can be slowly recombined back into
> water later.
>
> It doesn't especially matter how you put in this 2 amphours: 2a for 1hr,
> 1a for 2hr, 0.5a for 4 hrs, etc. Since the rate of recombination is a
> few tenths of an amp, currents this low can be applied for days without
> venting.
>
> The "pulse" algorithms are doing the same things, but applying a higher
> current but at a lower duty cycle. It comes back to the same thing in
> the end. There might be some minor advantages to it, but the results are
> far from conclusive.
>
> > Does the use of regulators change the algorithm for this final stage
>
> Yes! If you clamp battery voltage, then it will take far longer to
> equalize. Clamp it too low, and it will NEVER equalize.
>
> But, regulators are a good idea because you no longer have to
> deliberately overcharge the full batteries to get the weaker ones up to
> "full".
>
> Finally, keep in mind that the "correct" voltage and current for
> equalization changes with temperature, and as the battery ages.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sharkey states the pusher is a good solution for EVs that
want a hybrid ability.
But I would like to know if a person ignored common sense to
just buy a hybrid, and wanted to make a hybrid themselves,
using low cost EV components (DC not AC, standard ICE components)
to make the conversion cheap and easy to maintain ...
what would be the efficiency or mileage?
Would it gain you that much?
By not using a light vehicle frame and body, AC drive, and
have a on-board computer to manage the ICE start, and regen
into the micro batt pack, really be worth the effort?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence,
Think you're down on the Peninsula or in SF, right? I know
Electronic Plus up here in San Rafael has such ammeters, and HdB
down in Redwood City probably has them or can order for you, as I
imagine most any electronics shop can.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 10:07 AM
Subject: ampmeter 10 to 20 amp 2"
> Needed 10 amp ampmeter (or 20) for a golfcart. Direct connect
style. Two
> inches in diameter. Square or round face is ok as long as it
has the
> mounting hardware to keep it in a two inch hole. This is for
the charging
> circuit of a 36v golfcart. The old one was so worn out that I
couldn't
> figure out if it was 10, 15 or 20 amps. I am assuming any golf
cart
> charging at 110 to 125v won't go over 10 amps if it is a 15 amp
circuit.
> This cart does have a second input that is ungrounded. Radio
Shack used to
> have 20 amp ampmeters for cheap but they are no longer
available. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The manufacturer's charging algorithms are chosen to insure that the
battery survives the warranty period; not to maximize life. They
generally err on the side of overcharging. This shortens the maximum
life, but prevents early failures from undercharging.
Actually, Optima selected this algorithm to maximize cycle life.
They want to advertise as many cycles as possible so they developed to
algorithm that would get as many cycles as possible. If you don't use their
algorithm, you don't get the advertised cycle life.
The manufacturers also assume that you will murder the battery from
other types of abuse before charging abuse becomes a factor. If you
deeply discharge it on every cycle, or routinely draw huge currents, or
use it at high temperatures, the battery will die young no matter how
perfectly you charge it.
High currents won't bother an Optima. They appear to actually
prefer high rate discharge.
> Optima recommends a final "conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour.
My opinion is that this is too much. It amounts to a full equalization
on every cycle. I would only do it if you are deeply discharging on
every cycle. If you are limiting your depth of discharge to prolong
life, then only do this "conditioning" charge as needed (i.e. when you
observe differences in state of charge between batteries). Or, use a
much lower current for a longer period of time.
There is more to it than just equalization. The negative plate
needs the overcharge. If you skip it you will not charge the negative plate
and the battery will deteriorate because of it.
It is likely that you can reduce the duration of the finish charge
in proportion to the DOD. This has not been tested to my knowledge.
So, SOMETHING has to charge them at different rates. The battery
manufacturer's algorithms assume you will do this by deliberate
overcharging; forcing more amphours into a fully charged battery.
Actually, Optima requires you to use some sort of battery
management system for high voltage strings. The finish charge will not do
for equalization. They will not give the warranty if you do not have a BMS
for just this reason.
Optima
is telling you to put in an extra 2 amphours (2 amps for 1 hour). If a
battery in the string isn't yet ful, it charges an extra 2 amphours. If
a battery is already full, this energy just goes up as heat and gassing.
And charging the negative plate.
But they are saying there is enough air space inside to contain this
amount of gas without venting, so it can be slowly recombined back into
water later.
Not really. Two amps is beyond the recombination rate of the
battery and some gas vents. You do, indeed, lose water every time you do
this. Not a lot, but some.
It doesn't especially matter how you put in this 2 amphours: 2a for 1hr,
1a for 2hr, 0.5a for 4 hrs, etc. Since the rate of recombination is a
few tenths of an amp, currents this low can be applied for days without
venting.
Not entirely true.
The "pulse" algorithms are doing the same things, but applying a higher
current but at a lower duty cycle. It comes back to the same thing in
the end. There might be some minor advantages to it, but the results are
far from conclusive.
Again, not entirely true. The NREL study on Optimas using the 30
seconds on and 30 seconds off made a big difference in cycle life. They
didn't run the test as cleanly as they could have, and they altered too
many things at once, but it was very clear that the 50% duty cycle finish
charge was making a big difference in water loss and cycle life.
> Does the use of regulators change the algorithm for this final stage
Yes! If you clamp battery voltage, then it will take far longer to
equalize. Clamp it too low, and it will NEVER equalize.
Actually, you are completely wrong here. It really doesn't matter
much where you clamp the battery voltage as long as it is within reason.
Clamping it at 15 volts or a touch less is probably the optimal place and
least sensitive to minor voltage differences in regulators. You can clamp
at any voltage between 11 and 15 volts if you are accurate enough. The goal
is to get the batteries at identical SOC.
But, regulators are a good idea because you no longer have to
deliberately overcharge the full batteries to get the weaker ones up to
"full".
Finally, keep in mind that the "correct" voltage and current for
equalization changes with temperature, and as the battery ages.
You are confusing AGMs with flooded batteries. The voltage is set
by the thermal runaway threshold on AGMs.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You must have some way of stopping the voltage rise. I use Rudmann
regulators. Easily keeps all the 30 batteries in my pack within a few
hundredths of a volt. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Bardsley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 6:42 PM
Subject: YT Charging with regulators
> Hi all,
>
> I've got a new pack of 24 Optima YTs for my EV and a Zivan NG3 that
> needs to be reprogrammed for them. My concern is finding the best
> algorithm to charge the pack for the most cycles. No one seems to be
> getting anywhere near the number of cycles that Optima advertises, even
> if they follow Optima's recommended charging algorithm. I've seen lots
> of comments about this on the list recently, and I've read a few
> documents on the web. The advice is conflicting. I'm hoping that you can
> guide me.
>
> The conflicting advice I'm seeing is in how to handle the final stage of
> charging after bulk charging is complete. Optima recommends a final
> "conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour. It's not clear whether they
> recommend letting the voltage rise at will, but I think that's the case.
> The issues seem to be in two areas: battery chemistry and equalizing the
> battery string. In battery chemistry, as I understand it, the problem is
> balancing the need for higher voltage to polarize the negative plate
> (and prevent sulphation) against the dual problems of venting and
> positive-plate corrosion that result from higher voltage. For equalizing
> the string, this stage seems to help as well, and in fact many people
> refer to the last stage of charging as the "equalizing" stage. Some list
> members have written about longer charging at lower current, often at
> unlimited voltage, others of interrupted-current charging (from the NREL
> article), and others of lower voltage charging (e.g., the Powercheq
> article).
>
> Has anyone had experience charging a string of YTs with regulators? Does
> the use of regulators change the algorithm for this final stage, or is
> battery chemistry the determining factor? What do you recommend?
>
> I'd appreciate your help very much before I destroy my expensive new
> batteries! Thanks.
>
> --
> Phil Bardsley
> Research Associate
> Carolina Population Center
> Tel: 919-966-2825
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I will be making comments to Mr.
Zetsche concerning this story. Lawrence Rhodes.....contents goes something
like this. Stick your head up the tail pipe of one of these clean burning
diesels and breath for a while.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 8:01 PM
Subject: EVLN(Automakers stymied if states adopt emissions standards)
> EVLN(Automakers stymied if states adopt emissions standards)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> AP World Politics California emission standards should be
> moderated, Chrysler says Thu Jan 2, 9:21 PM ET
> By GARY GENTILE, AP Business Writer
>
> LOS ANGELES - Chrysler Group President Dieter Zetsche called
> the California market both important and problematic for
> U.S. auto makers looking to increase market share while
> meeting stringent environmental demands.
>
> Chrysler wants to increase its market share in the state
> from 8 percent to 9.5 percent by 2004, but also wants to
> work with state regulators to moderate mandates for
> zero-emission vehicles, Zetsche said Thursday.
>
> "We want to work together with the state of California to
> find common ground," Zetsche told journalists at the opening
> of the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show.
>
> Chrysler will produce its first hybrid pickup truck later
> this year. But Zetsche said that hybrid technology, which
> combines a gasoline-powered engine and an electric motor, is
> not a viable long-term technological or commercial
> alternative.
>
> "Hybrids have yet to prove they make business sense," he
> said.
>
> Both Toyota and Honda already sell hybrid cars: Toyota alone
> has sold more than 120,000 since it introduced its first,
> the Prius, in 2000.
>
> California has mandated that an increasing number of new
> cars and trucks sold in the state emit no pollution.
>
> The mandate was to have taken effect this year, but auto
> manufacturers won a preliminary injunction in June 2002 that
> delays implementation until 2005. Meanwhile, the California
> Air Resources Board will review the 13-year-old
> zero-emissions vehicle mandate at its Feb. 26 meeting,
> spokeswoman Gennet Paauwe said. The proposed changes will be
> made public Jan. 10, she said.
>
> Earlier Thursday, Zetsche said Chrysler intends to have a
> hybrid car available by 2007, when rival General Motors has
> said it intends to begin making a hybrid car.
>
> But Zetsche said that clean-burning diesel fuel is the best
> short-term alternative while waiting for fuel cell
> technology ? using hydrogen and oxygen to generate power ?
> to be perfected.
>
> "Diesel has the potential of powering vehicles people will
> demand," he said.
>
> Dan Becker, director of the Sierra Club (news - web sites)'s
> global warming (news - web sites) and energy program,
> scoffed at that idea in an interview.
>
> "If Zetsche thinks the way of the future is 19th century
> diesel technology instead of 21st century hybrid technology,
> his company will go further down," Becker said.
>
> Chrysler announced in November it would test market a
> diesel-powered Jeep Liberty sport utility vehicle in North
> America starting in 2004.
>
> Zetsche said it is a mistake to think that auto makers have
> technology readily available to both reduce emissions and
> power cars with the styling and features consumers demand.
>
> "Fuel cell vehicles are not yet commercially viable and
> electric vehicles may never be," he said.
>
> He said his fear is that auto makers may be stymied if
> states adopt individual emissions standards.
>
> California remains the single largest market for auto
> makers, yet domestic car makers sell less here than their
> foreign competitors.
>
> Imports command 58 percent of the market in California,
> Zetsche said.
>
> To increase market share in the state, Zetsche said Chrysler
> recently appointed an advertising team exclusively for
> California. Half of all advertising dollars will be spent to
> attract Hispanic buyers, he said.
>
> Zetsche also announced that a U.S. plant to produce a new
> four-cylinder gasoline engine as part of a joint venture
> between DaimlerChrysler AG, Hyundai Motor Co. and Mitsubishi
> Motors Corp. (news - web sites) will be jointly managed by
> the three companies.
>
> The companies agreed in December to jointly manage the U.S.
> plant, Zetsche said.
>
> The companies will announce the location of the plant within
> the next three months, Zetsche said. He declined to say how
> many people will be employed at the highly automated plant.
>
> "It won't be a huge number," he said.
>
> The U.S. plant, which will be completed in 2005, is one of
> three to be built by the companies. The others will be in
> South Korea (news - web sites ) and Japan. Until Thursday's
> announcement it had been expected that each partner would
> individually manage one plant. Hyundai is expected to start
> producing engines at the South Korean plant in 2004, with
> Mitsubishi and Chrysler starting the following year.
>
> About 40 percent of the 1.5 million aluminum engines
> expected to be produced at the three plants will be produced
> in the United States, although all three companies will own
> an equal share of the joint venture, he said.
>
> The joint venture was announced in May.
> -
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was a little angry when I wrote this. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 2:11 AM
Subject: Clean burning diesel
> 1. Zetsche said that clean-burning diesel fuel is the best
> short-term alternative while waiting for fuel cell
> technology ? using hydrogen and oxygen to generate power ?
> to be perfected.
> 1. I hate to be crude, but sir why don't you stick your face in the
tailpipe
> of one of these clean burning diesels for a while and see how you feel.
The
> U. S. has an excess of natural gas. Try using that. When you stick your
> head in that tail pipe you will feel better. Honda executives stick their
> faces in the pipe of their CNG Civic.
> 2. Fuel cell vehicles are not yet commercially viable and
> electric vehicles may never be," he said.
> 2. Chysler tests show they made an Epic electric minivan go over one
> thousand miles in one day. That is 1500 kilometers. This is using fast
> charging technology developed by Chysler. Who needs FoolCells.
> 3. He said his fear is that auto makers may be stymied if
> states adopt individual emissions standards.
> 3. You fear is for the bottom line. Develop a great product and it will
> sell. Not a car with a transmission that breaks at 71,000 miles.
Electric
> vehicles work great with the right batteries. Cheap to produce also.
>
> 4. California remains the single largest market for auto
> makers, yet domestic car makers sell less here than their
> foreign competitors.
> 4. My experience with poor performing/high maintainance american cars is
> simular to others in this state.
> 5. Imports command 58 percent of the market in California,
> Zetsche said.
> 5. Because they work. If I can't find a green american vehicle I will
buy
> a Toyota. The Rav4 can be gotten as electric.
> 6. To increase market share in the state, Zetsche said Chrysler
> recently appointed an advertising team exclusively for
> California. Half of all advertising dollars will be spent to
> attract Hispanic buyers, he said.
> 7. Concentrate on green vehicles and you will be rewarded. Use marketing
> and it will backfire. The green market is rich. The people wanting green
> vehicles have a lot of money. They have very little choice at the moment.
> They are buying a lot of hybrids. The first car company to develop an
> electric vehicle at a low price will be very popular. I have the plans to
> build several conversions that use NiZn batterys that will have over 100
> miles range. A ground up electric will be better. More range lighter.
We
> can build these for under $10,000.00 using off the shelf parts. You could
> build these for what you build gas cars for. Maybe less. Contact me
>
> Why is it that a person like myself with just some experience fixing my
own
> cars can build an electric conversion and run it around my area with no
> problems. I am not an engineer. I was forced to do this because you
won't
> build an electric. Lawrence Rhodes....Owner of a Ford Aspire conversion
> with an 80 mile range using Delphi batteries.......
>
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 12:06:48 -0800
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
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Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> I would like to know if a person ignored common sense to
> just buy a hybrid, and wanted to make a hybrid themselves,
> using low cost EV components (DC not AC, standard ICE components)
> to make the conversion cheap and easy to maintain ...
>
> what would be the efficiency or mileage?
> Would it gain you that much?
Of course it's been done, many times. Toyota and Honda already knew the
hybrid concept worked, as there have been lots of successful examples.
However, the fundamental problem with a hybrid is that you now have TWO
propulsion systems. Thus more parts, more complexity, higher cost, and
lower reliability. The big question has always been whether all this
extra effort is worth it. In an America where gasoline is cheap and
emissions are somebody else's problem, the answer has always been "no".
The Prius and Insight weren't built for America; they were built for the
rest of the world, for places that *do* care about fuel economy and low
emissions. I'm thankful that California's ZEV mandate managed to
encourage them to sell these hybrids here.
Now; could we build backyard hybrids? Yes, of course! In its crudest
form, you'd replace the starter and alternator of a regular car engine
with an aircraft starter-generator. Add a few more deep-cycle batteries
to form a 36v or 48v pack. Add a DC/DC converter to provide 12v power.
With the starter gone, you probably don't need a 12v accessory battery
at all.
Put a switch on the accellerator pedal so the engine shuts off when you
take your foot off the accellerator, and automatically restarts when you
touch it again. Now the driver can choose whether to let the engine turn
off, or keep his/her foot lightly on the pedal so it keeps idling (so
the heater or air conditioner keep working, for example). Now you've got
idle-stop, which saves a lot of gasoline and pollution when the car is
used in stop-and-go traffic.
The next improvement is to use the electric motor for load levelling.
Don't throttle the engine up to accellerate or climb hills; use the
electric motor to provide the extra power. Recharge the batteries using
regen (easy with these old shunt-wound machines). The goal is to run the
gasoline engine as close as possible to its "sweet spot" where it gets
the best efficiency and lowest emissions. This will have essentially no
effect on freeway gas mileage, but can significantly improve around-town
driving.
Obviously, one can get still more complicated. For example, you could
add a series motor to the driveshaft of a front-engine rear-drive car,
so you could drive it as a pure EV.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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