EV Digest 2512
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion,comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 120V kwh meter
by Neil Wicai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: News from Evercel
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Storing batteries
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: How To Best Promote Our Cause?
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: News from Evercel
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Pete's thoughts on extending battery life
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pete's thoughts on extending battery life
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: CG placement for a drag car (was: GhiaMonster Battery Box
Placement...)
by Michael Haseltine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by Michael Haseltine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Storing batteries
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: CG placement for a drag car (was: GhiaMonster Battery Box
Placement...)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: News from Evercel
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A 50% improvement in mileage would be worth the effort.
But if using less expensive components does not achieve
that, then just go buy a current hybrid.
Emissions are important, but I was being conservative in
a low cost 'hybrid conversion' goal. Without the computer
controlled fuel injection system with emission sensors
like current hybrids, I doubt any emission improvement
would be gained when using low cost EV components.
This answers my questions on this thread.
The Japanese have the hybrid answer at an affordable price.
New or used, current hybrids do the job. Why build one?!?
...
[Sidebar: In my continuous effort to get employed in the
depressed CA economy, I have another pending phone
interview (a 1st pass, cheap and dirty way to weed out
applicants) for a contract agency. The job would be in
San Jose area 20 miles (25 energy miles) away with no
charging nearby. I was considering my options when my EV
pack is nearing the end of its life and won't make the
round trip.
If the job demanded an ICE (as many do: affordable
housing far away from companies), this thread had
answered some of my questions.
I would first try to use public transportation. Next
consider an efficient ICE cycle (50 to 100 mpg). Finally,
buy an ICE vehicle (hybrid or not) as a last resort.
Imagine huge Bruce riding on a skinny moped ...
tis to laff.]
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:42 PM 1/3/03, you wrote:
> No one seems to be getting anywhere near the number of cycles that
> Optima advertises, even if they follow Optima's recommended charging
> algorithm.
I would like to write in defense of Optimas on this
observation since I seem to be getting at least somewhere close
to what Optima advertises. I've kept my discharges to 50% of rated
capacity and have somewhere around 700 cycles on them in over 6
years. I don't use Optima's recommended charging algorithm, and
agree with Lee that it's excessive.
Boycotting gas since 1994,
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
A few comments added.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Furniss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
> You would have to find a really light weight underpowered car to start
with
> or your return would be minimal,I don't think we got one of those here in
> the states
> We used to, with Rabbits, but finding a clean one today can be
difficult! One worth the trouble to convert, WITHOUT spending all yur time
fixing up a wreck so you won'yt mind being seen in it.
> Didn't this come up some time ago, mount a really big motorcycle engine to
> the end shaft of the electric motor! isn't there a motorcycle engine with
a
> automatic trans and a drive shaft output? range extender and recharge at
> stop lights and parking lots.
>
Then it's complicated and #$%^ NOISY! The vascuum pump is noisy enough for
me with EV's sorta defeasts the purpose. No quiet motorcycle engines anyhow!
> It wouldn't be worth it to me, I don't have to go that far, 17 miles round
> trip, city streets :) my commute is perfect for a EV
>
You got that right. I do twice that in mine and UP hill back home!
> At the last EV Club meeting there was a person that was trying to sell
> Russian gliders (3 to a container) but they would only qualify for NEV
> status because they don't meet safety crash standard, if anybody is
> interested.
>
Hmmm? MIGS, Tupoluvs? Sorry, couldn't resist. What are they, Volgas or
Ladas, Russian cars that I have heard of. Saw one at a Russian Trade Show in
NYC yearz ago. charmed me as it had a CRANK as standard equipment. Stowed
under the hood, and the teletale hole in the bumper that it passed through
to get to the crankshaft. The kindly Russian gentleman, showing me the car,
sed that it gets COLD in Russia, and sometimes it needs to be cranked,
although i would imagine it wouldn't be easy to crank in the cold he had in
mind?
Pasrticularly enjoyed talking to the Russian RR people there, too. A
railway through, like ,8 time zones, and ELECTRIC too. Nice pix of their
train atuff, to enjoy.Amtrak only goes through 3 here, for comparison. And
we're lucky to get that many.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
>
>
> > Sharkey states the pusher is a good solution for EVs that
> > want a hybrid ability.
> >
> > But I would like to know if a person ignored common sense to
> > just buy a hybrid, and wanted to make a hybrid themselves,
> >
> > using low cost EV components (DC not AC, standard ICE components)
> > to make the conversion cheap and easy to maintain ...
> >
> > what would be the efficiency or mileage?
> > Would it gain you that much?
> >
> > By not using a light vehicle frame and body, AC drive, and
> > have a on-board computer to manage the ICE start, and regen
> > into the micro batt pack, really be worth the effort?
> >
Not really, Toyota an' Honda have done this for you. Not General
Murders ,Crapsler or Fraud. Yet.
Seeya
Bob
> >
> >
> > =====
> > ' ____
> > ~/__|o\__
> > '@----- @'---(=
> > . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> > . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> > . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> > =====
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> www.lasvegasev.com
> Richard Furniss
> Las Vegas, NV
> 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> Board Member, www.lveva.org
> Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy,
Rochester Instrument Systems, now part of Ametek Power Instruments, has
manufactured a small electronic watt-hour meter for many years. It
measures 4.6 x 4.6 inches by about 2.5 inches deep and mounts to a
standard 4x4 electrical j-box.
The 120 volt single phase version with a 50 amp ring core CT and
non-resettable 6 digit readout is a model PM-10-01-120-K0-D-M. It sells
for $650. They have to be made to order and have a delivery of about 4
weeks. I can get them through my old rep company at a 10% discount.
Even at that, the price is bit steep. Let me know off list if you want
more info.
Neil
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Randy Holmquist
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 6:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 120V kwh meter
I need to keep track of AC power used by on board chargers and need to
find a compact kwh meter. Preferably not the big glass fronted ones.
Thanks Randy
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: News from Evercel
> > Did you discharge the ones with the self discharge problem when you
> removed
> > them from service? They should be discharged when shipped or stored
>
> No, they were 'stored' for a month fully charged.
Ouch.
They should be stored discharged to keep the self discharge problem from
unbalancing the pack.
When you recharge them after this incident, the overcharge of the good cells
will encourage growth of dendrites in the good cells. You will soon have
greater self discharge in more of the present good cells.
I think you may have started a domino effect.
At least there is little admitted risk of hot, warm or cold shorts.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >The other two or three only made modest improvements and could have
> >probably done better with staying with pure ICE's tuned for high
> >mileage.
>
> Mileage should be only one factor. What of emissions? The Toyota Prius
> may only get 45-50 mpg, but it also has 80-90% lower emissions. The use of
> the electric motor at 0-10 mph and regenerative braking plays a big role it
> that. I am sure some that did not gain in mpg still reduced emissions.
>
Absolutely. My point was just to illustrate that building a hybrid that
gets both better mileage and better emissions is no easy task, doing it
with budget components just makes it that much more difficult.
Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. In fact I'm working on a
budget hybrid right now myself. I recently got a really good deal on a
4WD Toyota 4runner. I am planning on connecting a rabbit diesel motor
(running biodiesel and straight veg oil) to the front wheels and a
complete electric drive system to the back wheels.
This means that I end up pushing 400-500 lbs more stuff around when I'm
in electric mode but if I have to go on a long trip I can just lock the
front hubs and fire up the diesel.
At least that's the plan, we will see how it works out.
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, time for a little summary. When batteries will not be used for a
while they should be stored how?
Lead Acid - store fully charged (to prevent sulfating and freezing)
NiZn - store discharged (to prevent the self discharge problem from
unbalancing the pack)
NiCad - store discharged? (and why?)
NiMH - store ???? (and why?)
Joe Smalley wrote:
They should be stored discharged to keep the self discharge problem from
unbalancing the pack.
When you recharge them after this incident, the overcharge of the good cells
will encourage growth of dendrites in the good cells. You will soon have
greater self discharge in more of the present good cells.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marvin,
> That is branding. If we could get that same Madison Avenue-style brain
> control working on our side...
Ok. So EV's are already branded. They are those 'slow as a golf cart' things
that the car companies couldn't make work. Oh, and you have to plug them
in<g>!
Here would be my suggestions on how a philanthropical organisation can help
promote EVs. Warning of slight bias. I work for ProEV
(www.ProEV.com). Company statement of purpose: 'Developing and promoting
EV's through competition.' So, no surprise that my first suggestion involves
supporting a competition. The history of the ICE automobile is full of
examples where the spur of competition have driven the evolution and
acceptance of the car.
Suggestion Number 1- Fund organizing EV racing
I have two versions. The big budget, maximum effect and a slower but less
expensive way. Big budget first:
Organise a Professional EV race series. The series should have reasonable
prize money and a good television package. The rules should be written so
that the cars have at least a visual similarity to road cars so people can
relate to them. It might be nice also to match
the FIA Electro rule book, so that the cars would be legal to race
internationally. The race should be a road course sprint race to play to
EV's strengths. Each race then fits nicely in a half hour or hour TV format
with lots
of information about the cars and the technology and the people running
them. The series would need to
have three years of guaranteed funding to convince good teams to build cars
to the rules.
It should not be too difficult to build cars that will be very quick for a
30 mile race. The cars will develop rapidly in competition. The public's
perception of EV's will be changed. Not only will the public see EV's as
fast and exciting, but they also will see them as 'track-proven'. Seeing the
cars run hard and faster than normal driving would ever require, is worth a
thousand 'Big 3' press releases that EV's are dead.
Prize money, race organizing costs, promotional costs for a three year
series will be substantial. Race placement (where the race are and as a
support race to what series) and cost of a TV package can vary depending on
how much
interest race organizers and TV producers see the series as having.
The less expensive version is to put up funding to crown a US EV champion.
Each year have one race to determine the fastest EV in America. The car
rules should be fairly
open but require cars with at least a visual similarity to street cars (same
reason as above). The
race could be held as part of a Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) regional
weekend. If there are not enough EV's competing, then the cars can run as a
race within a race, as part of another class.
At this level, it would be extremely difficult, even with a reasonable
purse,
for these cars to pay for themselves. If the cars are built to meet SCCA
safety rules though, the cars can continue to race and develop at the
amateur hobbyist level at local SCCA regional weekends. The SCCA has been
receptive to allowing EV's to run at Regional weekends in their catch-all
regional classes such as SPU. This would allow the cars to continue
development, get exposure, and provide fun to their owners.
Another advantage is that the cars would run in front of a crowd of creative
talented amateur grass roots automobile engineers who know nothing about
EV's.
I would think funding needs to be about $50,000 a year. 1/2 as
a cash prize, 1/2 to pay for publicizing the contest (web site, media
contacts, etc.). Five year minimum commitment.
Suggestion Number 2- Fund EV Information Person
There is a huge amount of erroneous information about EV's in the media.
Most of it accidental, some intentionally misleading. I think giving funding
to a recognized EV group, such as EAA (www.eaaev.org), to hire a person to
act as a media
information source would help change public perception of EVs.
This should be a full time position for an articulate and literate person
with excellent knowledge of EV's. The person's main task would be to contact
publishers of erroneous information and educate them while asking for a
published correction. At the same time, they would also offer their services
if, in
the future, more information about EV's are needed. Any spare time <G>, can
be spent writing letters to the editors about EV issues.
Suggestion Number 3- Support School and college EV programs
I have had the pleasure of working, with members of various school
EV programs. These programs attract/produce hard core EVers. I do not know
enough about the different programs to know how funding would help them
most, but contacting the organizers should give some leads.
Something like funding the design of a detailed teacher/advisor starter kit
and doing a targeting mailing to schools might be a big step in expanding
the programs.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let the voltage go wild.
Do you really mean that Bill?
I've seen 18 volts doing 2 amps for one hour!!
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:12 PM 1/4/03, you wrote:
Let the voltage go wild.
Do you really mean that Bill?
I've seen 18 volts doing 2 amps for one hour!!
That is correct. You need the voltage to knock off the sulfation.
As I suggested earlier, it is probably a good idea to proportion
the finish charge duration with the DOD.
All AGM charging schemes are a balance between water consumption,
grid corrosion, and paste deterioration, versus sulfation, and complete
charging of the negative plate. If you charge too gently, the batteries
lose capacity due to problems with the negative plate and sulfation and
cycle life is cut short. If you charge too aggressively, you lose water and
the grids fall apart and cycle life is cut short. It is a rock and a hard
place. The only way to "win" is to chose the "least worst" charging method
that strikes a balance between evils.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:36 AM 1/4/03, you wrote:
At 07:42 PM 1/3/03, you wrote:
> No one seems to be getting anywhere near the number of cycles that
> Optima advertises, even if they follow Optima's recommended charging
> algorithm.
I would like to write in defense of Optimas on this
observation since I seem to be getting at least somewhere close
to what Optima advertises. I've kept my discharges to 50% of rated
capacity and have somewhere around 700 cycles on them in over 6
years. I don't use Optima's recommended charging algorithm, and
agree with Lee that it's excessive.
But when you accidentally overcharged your batteries, just like
Optima says to do, they gained capacity and power.
What was the Ah capacity of you pack before you accidentally ran
the proper finish charge? Afterwards?
You should probably try out the 50% duty cycle finish charge. I
know that you don't usually deeply discharge your batteries, so you should
also probably set the duration of the finish charge in proportion to the
DOD. A 20% DOD would translate into a finish charge of 12 minutes at 2 amps
(or 24 minutes at 50% duty cycle.) This doesn't sound excessive to me. Does
it to you?
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Ouch.
>
> They should be stored discharged to keep the self discharge problem from
> unbalancing the pack.
Well, this is I think what we refer to as a 'learning experience'.
I hope to have gen2 of the mk3 boards turned shortly (I again have money to
spend on such things), this time without the high voltage isolation issues
that prevented me from putting gen1 on the car. I will also be using a
clever Lee Hart hack to make them charge-shuttling, this should enable me to
use them to help deal with any inbalances that might occur.
> When you recharge them after this incident, the overcharge of the good
cells
> will encourage growth of dendrites in the good cells. You will soon have
> greater self discharge in more of the present good cells.
Maybe. I am not going to attempt to predict ahead of data, as NiZn evercel
style seems to be full of suprises.
> I think you may have started a domino effect.
Nice of evercell to mention it, wasn't it ;-)
I'll keep the list posted as more data becomes available.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok most of us know (or should know) how to get the best life out of our
flooded batteries. But what do you do when the batteries will no longer
get you where you want to go?
My 8V Trojans were about 2 years old when I bought my truck. I drove it
around for (4-5x per week) for about 1.5 years and started noticing that
the pack wasn't doing so good. My daily commute is about 17-18 miles
and my pack was down to about 20-22 miles on a warm day with about 1/2
dozen of my batteries sagging way down near the end even when the others
are ok still.
Once the weather turned cold I could barely make it home.
Around this time of year I see lots of people talking about needing new
batteries so I thought I'd share some ideas that seem to be working for
me. Other than insulating the batteries to keep them warm DON"T try
these ideas on a good pack.
My pack is no longer a good pack so I figure I can't hurt them anyway
(they are, by most peoples standards, worn out)
Like I said the first thing I did was put the insulation back on. That
helped but even keeping the batteries at 80-90 degrees didn't give me
the range and performance I wanted. So I keep them at 110 to 120
degrees.
Now I'm not sure if it's the temperature or the way I keep them that
warm that is making the difference but I'm was back up to at least 25
miles range and decent performance again. The method I used to get my
pack hot? I fully charge the pack and then put an additional 3-4 amps
through it for a several hours. That and driving it is all it takes (I
gain about 8-10 degrees on the trip to work). I use 1" of styrofoam
insulation which is plenty with Arizona's relatively warm winters
(barely get's down to 30 at night and frequently up in the 60's during
daytime)
That was three months ago. Those 1/2 dozen stinkers are starting to sag
again. So what do I do know? I now ignore the pack voltage, my 120V
pack frequently drops into the 80's on the return trip. I don't let it
stay there for long (perhaps 30 seconds at most) but if I don't keep my
foot in it I slow up traffic more than I feel is acceptable.
I figure I can get another month or so before the pack is completely
shot.
Is all this worth it for an addition 4 or 5 months? Well I think so,
besides I want to rebuild my vehicle to use 6V batteries and I'm still a
couple months away from the point where I can start that project.
Anyway, use or ignore these ideas as you see fit. I just thought I'd
throw them out (besides the list is kinda of quite lately)
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> I would like to know if a person ignored common sense to
> just buy a hybrid, and wanted to make a hybrid themselves,
> using low cost EV components (DC not AC, standard ICE components)
> to make the conversion cheap and easy to maintain ...
>
> what would be the efficiency or mileage?
Good responses on this question. The efficiency could be improved only
if you replace the ICE. The 'design point' is equal performance; no
one can sell lower performance for more money. Higher torque at low
rpm is perceived as powerful.
> Would it gain you that much?
I believe (that means without calculations or doing it) that a mix of
modest cost (DC) components could be made into a successful HEV. But,
you start with a 'mission requirement' including car type, hill climb
capability, emission requirements and work out the configuration.
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"However, the fundamental problem with a hybrid is that you now have TWO
propulsion systems. Thus more parts, more complexity, higher cost, and
lower reliability."
The electronic content is increased, but the starter and generator
(with its belt) of the original configuration are gone in the flywheel
motor configuration. As well, you may reduce the no. of cylinders.
"The Prius and Insight weren't built for America; they were built for the
rest of the world, for places that *do* care about fuel economy and low
emissions. I'm thankful that California's ZEV mandate managed to
encourage them to sell these hybrids here."
Without the huge market here, the volume of sales would have been low.
The Prius and Hondas use more efficient And lower power IC engines.
They maintain extremely close control over their battery SoC using
battery types that don't require or want full charge. They will go
over mountain passes. They are very low polluting.
Some vendors have designed belt drive, 48 (36) Volt add on motor
generators hoping to sell them to early adapter OEMs. That approach
might work, but is tacky. If combined with a VW diesel type ICE in a
large vehicle, it should meet Bruce's suggested goal.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> But when you accidentally overcharged your batteries, just like
> Optima says to do, they gained capacity and power.
I didn't overcharge them "just like Optima says to do", see below.
> What was the Ah capacity of you pack before you accidentally ran
> the proper finish charge? Afterwards?
It wasn't a "proper finish charge". The proper finish charge is
2 amps for an hour, this was 10-20 amps for an hour. I don't know the capacity
before or after, since I didn't fully discharge them to find out. I only know
that the capacity and performance was great before, that they survived the accident,
and that they got a bit better afterward, if anything. The improvement wasn't
dramatic at all, just a tiny, incremental improvment.
****** Remember that my reason for posting was to defend Optimas and document
a case where they are performing as advertised and are enjoying a long cycle life.
I once wrote in defense of Optimas where a high failure rate was being reported
in an EV's pack. I posted that I'd had only had one failure out of a sample
of 17. That is still true today, several years after having written that post.
The accidental overcharge that you refer to wasn't responsible for this pack's
long life, as they were already very old before it occurred. At that time, the pack
was
performing great, so there was little room for improvement, even though a slight
improvement was noted. All the extra energy didn't go into -finally charging them up
after years and years of undercharging-, it all went into heating. Their survival
probably came from starting the overcharge at such low temperatures.
(My garage in Bend was like a fridge)
> I know that you don't usually deeply discharge your batteries, so you should
> also probably set the duration of the finish charge in proportion to the
> DOD. A 20% DOD would translate into a finish charge of 12 minutes at 2 amps
> (or 24 minutes at 50% duty cycle.) This doesn't sound excessive to me. Does
> it to you?
That doesn't sound excessive to me, in fact it's representative of
the finish charge I do after my typical cycle. What I was saying sounds
excessive, is from what Phil Bardsley asked:
> The conflicting advice I'm seeing is in how to handle the final stage of
> charging after bulk charging is complete. Optima recommends a final
> "conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour. It's not clear whether they
> recommend letting the voltage rise at will, but I think that's the case.
Doing that on every cycle regardless of DOD, is probably excessive.
To answer Phil on the voltage question, I do let my voltage run away, the
higher the better, at low currents, and not for an excessive amount of time.
John Wayland and I are always exchanging fun EV stories, he's sure
been writing some great ones over the last few weeks! The new EV projects he
has underway will be astounding! Here is something I wrote him on a cold,
wintery day recently, shortly after posting about my 50 mph headwind, 65 mph
blast up the canyon. It describes pretty well how my pack of Optimas is behaving
while going into it's 7th year:
--------------------
Yesterday, I took the car off charge, and after getting in and
preparing to move out, saw that the pack was resting at 232-233 Volts.
[192 Volts nominal] I fired it up, drove it outside and parked
in the driveway. After closing the garage door, strapping in, and
preparing to leave, it was still sitting at around 228 or so. After
checking for any oncoming cars and pulling out smartly and bringing it
up to speed, I glanced down to see that the loaded voltage was 218!
This held for a good couple of blocks, then it rapidly came off
surface charge and -only- had 209 under a load. By then I was clear
downtown. I did some strong accelerations on the main drag, pulling
it way down to the 180s, but it would always bounce back up over
nominal on load, and over 200 when coasting. This is with freezing
cold batteries that by all rights should be in wheelchairs, but are
instead climbing mountains, running sprints and marathons. Remember
when I bought them from you.....that was sure a long time ago!
-------------------
Enjoying long cycle life from Optima YellowTops,
Seeya,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Like I said the first thing I did was put the insulation back on. That
> helped but even keeping the batteries at 80-90 degrees didn't give me
> the range and performance I wanted. So I keep them at 110 to 120
> degrees.
This brings back fond memories of my first pack, (10) Trojan 27TMHs.
I was dialing in the pack temperature with the charger, using shooting for
around 90 deg.
> That was three months ago. Those 1/2 dozen stinkers are starting to sag
> again.
> I figure I can get another month or so before the pack is completely
> shot.
>
> Is all this worth it for an addition 4 or 5 months?
It's fun to get every bit out of your pack that you can. I had
a great time with this pack of Trojans. I quit my job and no longer had
to commute with them. Once they get to where yours are, they start to
go down rapidly, as every cycle is nearly 100%. I fondly remember the
last few trips I took with that trusty 3 year old battery pack. My range
was still considerable, but measured in feet. My range was THOUSANDS of
feet! I could go grocery shopping, no problem. Load the car with groceries
and bring 'em home, having EV fun all the way. I finally retired the pack
and put in the Optimas when my DC/DC converter dropped out the stereo
while accelerating gently several thousand feet from home.
(no aux. battery at that time) What! No stereo!
You have to draw the line somewhere!
Seeya,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two comments below...
At 02:29 AM 1/2/03, you wrote:
The goal of battery placement is to put the CG of the car in
the ideal point. I should say, on the ideal line.
Make a mark on the floor where the back tires contact the
ground. This is the "contact point". Next, draw a line from the
contact point straight forward exactly 2.8 yards. Put a 1 yard pole
straight up from the end of the line you just drew. Run a string
from the top of the pole back to the contact point. The CG of the
car must lie somewhere on this line (or a projection of this line
forward) for the car to get maximum traction on the drag strip.
Wow, this means you're getting 2.8 g out of drag slicks and a sticky
track! I had no idea it would be that high.
The farther forward on the line that you place the CG, the
more sensitive the car will be to changes in traction. Thus, you are
best off to keep the CG as close to the contact point as you can
while still remaining on the line. If the traction is poor at the
track, you want to move the CG slightly below the line. If the
traction is exceptionally good at the track, you might want to move
the CG sightly above the line.
Wouldn't it be the reverse? Lowering the CG would mean you were
getting higher than 2.8 g traction and vice versa, wouldn't it?
It is handy to be able to move the CG at the track. Thus, it
is useful to make the battery box larger than it needs to be so you
can put in dummy batteries (or other spacers) that you can swap
around with real batteries. Thus, you can move batteries from the
front to the rear or from side to side in the box to shift the CG
around. Sometimes, (like on my bike) you just don't have the room to
make the battery box any larger than it absolutely has to be. In
your door slammer, however, it is likely that you have the room to
spare to do this. Even if you just make room for three of four
dummies, spread between the packs, you can make very useful changes
in the CG to get the car to launch straight and hard.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right, we're going to disconnect our regs every time we equalize?
Maybe if evs is all you have going on, but this is out of the
question in my book. What do you suggest, a set of relays to
disconnect all regs at the flip of a switch? All right all you Optima
users out there, raise your hands if you disconnect your regs to
equalize your daily driver...
With regs, you run the charger until all the regs are
blinking and the current has gone down to 1 amp or less. Then
disconnect the regs and pump 2 amps through the pack for an hour. If
you like, pump 2 amps at 50% duty cycle and a period of one minute
(30 seconds on and then 30 seconds off) for 2 hours.
Although not proven by experiment, it is very likely that
you could reduce the duration of the finish charge based of the
depth of discharge. Alternatively, you might not do it every cycle
if the cycles are less than 40% DOD. This is just an educated guess,
however.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(wet) NiCd- any way you want, but they may need a commisioning charge.
Stored shorted is common and they will definitely need a commissioning charge
(starved electrolyte) NiMH- store charged and recharge every few months
depending on temperature. cool is better than warm as it greatly slows
the self.
Seth
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> OK, time for a little summary. When batteries will not be used for a
> while they should be stored how?
>
> Lead Acid - store fully charged (to prevent sulfating and freezing)
>
> NiZn - store discharged (to prevent the self discharge problem from
> unbalancing the pack)
>
> NiCad - store discharged? (and why?)
>
> NiMH - store ???? (and why?)
>
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > They should be stored discharged to keep the self discharge problem from
> > unbalancing the pack.
> >
> > When you recharge them after this incident, the overcharge of the good cells
> > will encourage growth of dendrites in the good cells. You will soon have
> > greater self discharge in more of the present good cells.
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:02 PM 1/4/03, you wrote:
Right, we're going to disconnect our regs every time we equalize? Maybe if
evs is all you have going on, but this is out of the question in my book.
What do you suggest, a set of relays to disconnect all regs at the flip of
a switch? All right all you Optima users out there, raise your hands if
you disconnect your regs to equalize your daily driver...
Waste your batteries if you like. All I am telling you is the
algorithm that will make the batteries keep full capacity and last the
greatest number of cycles. You are more than welcome to use a less
effective charge profile and replace your batteries more often. Your choice
entirely.
Disconnecting the regs is exactly what I used to do (before I
bought a Smoother.) I had a set of multi-pin connectors in the harness. I'd
tug them loose every few cycles and give the pack the full finish charge.
You can run the latest version of Rudman regs with the Reg-Bus
daughter boards along withe the latest PFC-20, and the whole thing is
automatic. A few more dollars but it will pay for itself in extended
battery life.
You can also run other battery management systems such as
PowerChec and BatiCheq. These systems are also automatic.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:11 PM 1/4/03, you wrote:
Two comments below...
At 02:29 AM 1/2/03, you wrote:
The goal of battery placement is to put the CG of the car in the
ideal point. I should say, on the ideal line.
Make a mark on the floor where the back tires contact the
ground. This is the "contact point". Next, draw a line from the contact
point straight forward exactly 2.8 yards. Put a 1 yard pole straight up
from the end of the line you just drew. Run a string from the top of the
pole back to the contact point. The CG of the car must lie somewhere on
this line (or a projection of this line forward) for the car to get
maximum traction on the drag strip.
Wow, this means you're getting 2.8 g out of drag slicks and a sticky
track! I had no idea it would be that high.
Actually, with a few suspension tricks, you can approach 5 G's off
the line. 8-) First, you make the car squat and thus pitch backwards. You
then have the rear suspension push back and use the rotational inertia of
the car about the pitch axis to plant the tires harder than the weight of
the car would alone. Watch a race horse come out of the gate at the race
track and you will get the idea.
A properly prepared track can have a coefficient of friction of
2.8 or even greater. Your feet stick to the ground. You can easily walk out
of your shoes if they are not tied snugly. It feels like walking on the
floor in front of the Slurpy machine at 7-11.
The farther forward on the line that you place the CG, the more
sensitive the car will be to changes in traction. Thus, you are best off
to keep the CG as close to the contact point as you can while still
remaining on the line. If the traction is poor at the track, you want to
move the CG slightly below the line. If the traction is exceptionally
good at the track, you might want to move the CG sightly above the line.
Wouldn't it be the reverse? Lowering the CG would mean you were getting
higher than 2.8 g traction and vice versa, wouldn't it?
You are correct. I wrote it down backwards. Sorry about the confusion.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Bardsley wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've got a new pack of 24 Optima YTs for my EV and a Zivan NG3 that
> needs to be reprogrammed for them. My concern is finding the best
> algorithm to charge the pack for the most cycles. No one seems to be
> getting anywhere near the number of cycles that Optima advertises, even
> if they follow Optima's recommended charging algorithm. I've seen lots
> of comments about this on the list recently, and I've read a few
> documents on the web. The advice is conflicting. I'm hoping that you can
> guide me.
>
> The conflicting advice I'm seeing is in how to handle the final stage of
> charging after bulk charging is complete. Optima recommends a final
> "conditioning" charge of 2 amps for 1 hour. It's not clear whether they
> recommend letting the voltage rise at will, but I think that's the case.
> The issues seem to be in two areas: battery chemistry and equalizing the
> battery string. In battery chemistry, as I understand it, the problem is
> balancing the need for higher voltage to polarize the negative plate
> (and prevent sulphation) against the dual problems of venting and
> positive-plate corrosion that result from higher voltage. For equalizing
> the string, this stage seems to help as well, and in fact many people
> refer to the last stage of charging as the "equalizing" stage. Some list
> members have written about longer charging at lower current, often at
> unlimited voltage, others of interrupted-current charging (from the NREL
> article), and others of lower voltage charging (e.g., the Powercheq
> article).
>
> Has anyone had experience charging a string of YTs with regulators? Does
> the use of regulators change the algorithm for this final stage, or is
> battery chemistry the determining factor? What do you recommend?
>
> I'd appreciate your help very much before I destroy my expensive new
> batteries! Thanks.
>
> --
> Phil Bardsley
> Research Associate
> Carolina Population Center
> Tel: 919-966-2825
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have a bit of time on Optimas... and so do alot of my Rudman Regulator
MK2 owners.
Optima's recomendation work very well on a single Battery, But I can
garentee failure of the string if it's longer than about 4 batteries if
you do this.
You GOT to have battery by battery equalization if you go to higher
string voltages.
Maybe you need to voice me or tangle with this off line.
I have Yts that are 4 years old and over 500 cycles... So do a lot of
folks with a little experience under thier belts.
Nrel is foolish, thier entier test is done with totally un obtainable
conditions. 60C, cycles after cycle until Death, and then to get this
they Swapped out more than a few batteries.
The neat pulse and hold then wait for decay end of charge is a neat
idea, but is NOT much more effective than 14.8VDC and hold for 30
minutes. The hard thing to do is to get the entire string to reach this
condition. I do it on every cycle. No funny stuff. Just a honest bulk,
hold/taper, and off.
Until sombody has a better success at this than I do within the 40 to
80 Deg F range.... I would recomend this highly.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
>
>
> No, they were 'stored' for a month fully charged.
>
> S.
This is the error of your ways Sheer.
It's getting clearer that we need to cycle them.
Full only when ready for use.
Flatten then store.
REawaken, equalize, Cycle into service.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
