EV Digest 2514
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Optima YT modifications?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Segway interest
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Segway interest
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Segway Interest
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: YT Charging with regulators
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion,comments
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Segway interest
by Dragan Stancevic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Pete's thoughts on extending battery life
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion,comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) FW: trans2
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Aspire goes its first thousand miles.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Segway interest
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Free "Safety First" tech paper
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Charging questions
by "Johanna and Stan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
by Jay Donnaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Segway interest
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) basic and very much On Topic (was basic and OT; DC voltage vs uni
versal AC motor)
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: basic and very much On Topic (was basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC
motor)
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Charging questions
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Optima YT modifications?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:53 PM 1/5/03, you wrote:
I received this message recently. Does anyone know anything more about this?
Is it possible? Does it increase capacity significantly? What are the
drawbacks?
I have also heard that it is possible to convert an Optima to a wet cell,
and that you get more capacity out of them if you do so. You may not even
have to take the top off, adding water by injection and leaving a hole to
vent. This takes away the advantage of a sealed battery, but gives more
capacity.
While letting them vent is not a good idea, adding water can
sometimes extend the cycle life. Weigh a new one and then add water to the
cells of the "tired" old battery to bring the weight up to the original
weight. Seal up the holes with plastic screws and RTV. Kind of like
refilling an ink cartridge in you printer. I've never done this myself, but
I have heard of others doing it successfully. Can't hurt, the tired old
battery is nearly useless anyway.
If you plan on doing this, weigh your batteries when new and write
the weight on the side of each battery.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Segway interest
> gail wrote:
> > Now that the Segway is for sale on Amazon.com do you think it will
> > become a popular transportation option?
>
> Not likely at $5000 each. So far, it looks more like a toy for rich
> people.
>
> > for those of us whose main objective is clean air, via any possible
> > means, this little unit is seen as an EV which might get some people
> > out of their automobiles, and it is becoming available.
>
> I think electric bikes are a much better option. Or, electric scooter
> for those who can't stand to pedal even occasionally.
> --
> Lee A. Hart
I'm glad the Segway is available now, but I tend to agree with Lee. An ebike
is much more affordable, and if something goes dead, you can pedal it home,
at least most of them. I bet at least one is like trying to pedal an old
paddle boat. The MoRad scooter strikes me as the most reasonable cross
between all aspects and concerns. Some improvement in speed, replacement
parts abound, cost is reasonable, though more than an ebike, and it could at
least be pushed home if it went kapooey. I don't think I'd want to drag an
almost three hundred pound Segway in my wake if it broke down. Board
scooters sure look neat, and I'd love to try one of those with the seat on
top. The basic board type would be a problem for me. Somedays I trip over
high spots in parking lots. I'd rather not prove my gracelessness at higher
than walking speeds.
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps the Segway will find plenty of use in the city or urban communities.
Personally, I'd love to have one. It's a blast to ride, but there are some
drawbacks which you also mentioned.
The first is allowing them to be ridden on sidewalks. This seems to be a
major issue and Segway has been meeting with legislators to get bills and
exemptions for them. Bicycle activists aren't too crazy about exemptions for
Segways when their own vehicles aren't allowed on the same sidewalks.
Another issue is their weight. These vehicles are not light, weighing in at
60 pounds or so, so hauling them up and down the steps of your city
townhouse is a bit cumbersome.
They seem to be the perfect solution to inner city commuting but then there
is the issue of allowing them on Subway trains and buses as well and
wrestling a Segway on a subway train during rush hour would be a problem.
>From what I understand, the Postal Service and some Police Agencies are
testing them. The problem they are having is that they often need to carry
extra battery packs and to replace the batteries you have to have a
screwdriver to gain access to a panel underneath. This is not the best way
to quickly exchange battery packs during a postal route or on police patrol.
Also if you weigh over 200 or 250 pounds the Segway won't work as well. I
can't recall the exact weight limit so don't quote me on this.
The Segway folks came by our place at SkooterCommuter for a dog and pony
show in November, the day before their announcement about selling the
vehicle through Amazon. There is a picture up on our site at
http://www.skootercommuter.com/
Chip Gribben
SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com/
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.com/
on 1/5/03 8:14 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> From: gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:46:56 -0800 (PST)
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Segway interest
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Now that the Segway is for sale on Amazon.com do you think it will become
> a popular transportation option? Have any on the EV list ordered one? I
> know it is not a high speed racing EV so will not appeal to some, but for
> those of us whose main objective is clean air, via any possible means,
> this little unit is seen as an EV which might get some people out of their
> automobiles, and it is becoming available. I am trying to determine
> whether there would be enough of them tooling about Las Vegas in the near
> future that it might be time to start decision making on things like
> where they will be allowed, if they can be taken on the bus (on the bike
> racks, or on board like a wheelchair), whether charging should be made
> available in shopping malls, if they can be included in the list of
> alternative methods of getting to work for points on the RTC Club Ride
> program which now counts bicycling, walking, riding the bus and car
> pooling.
>
> Thanks for any comments, or information on how sales are going, if such
> data are available.
>
> Gail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another idea for the Segway would be sports. What better venue then Viva Las
Vegas.
The Segway is a nimble vehicle once you get the hang of it so maybe Segway
Polo or Segway Soccer would be interesting to watch and play.
This would probably be the best promotional activity for it. Two teams, each
team has a different color Segway they use to move around the field on.
I think I'll give Dean a call and see what he thinks.
Chip Gribben
on 1/5/03 8:14 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> From: gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:46:56 -0800 (PST)
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Segway interest
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Now that the Segway is for sale on Amazon.com do you think it will become
> a popular transportation option? Have any on the EV list ordered one? I
> know it is not a high speed racing EV so will not appeal to some, but for
> those of us whose main objective is clean air, via any possible means,
> this little unit is seen as an EV which might get some people out of their
> automobiles, and it is becoming available. I am trying to determine
> whether there would be enough of them tooling about Las Vegas in the near
> future that it might be time to start decision making on things like
> where they will be allowed, if they can be taken on the bus (on the bike
> racks, or on board like a wheelchair), whether charging should be made
> available in shopping malls, if they can be included in the list of
> alternative methods of getting to work for points on the RTC Club Ride
> program which now counts bicycling, walking, riding the bus and car
> pooling.
>
> Thanks for any comments, or information on how sales are going, if such
> data are available.
>
> Gail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You would have to find a really light weight underpowered car to start with
or your return would be minimal,I don't think we got one of those here in
the states.
Then what is a Geo Metro Rich <g>?
Neon
P.S. - not to offend anyone, I own one myself
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich wrote:
Umm Bill... we dissagree here.
There still has to be a upper limit on each battery. Even if it is at
16.5VDC. If they get any higher. they will start to vent. EVEN at 2
amps.
I have a set of *tortured* Optimas. I get to play all kinds of
balance and commissioning games, as I store the pack each winter, and
don't have any regs. The EV Buggy they are in has little range, so
I'm really sensitive to range changes.
1st observation. Optimas need equalization. Not because they get out
of balance, but because they don't have the capacity if you don't.
2nd observation. You *cannot* consider the 2 amps for 1 hour to be
the way to get the lower batteries full ("balancing"). ALL the pack
MUST be full (or real close) before you attempt to equalize, or the
venting will be severe on the strongest cells and the lowest cells
won't receive the capacity benefit of equalizing (it gives a
situation where most of the pack is in balance, but the ones that are
not come up *quite* short on deeper cycles).
3rd observation. I still don't know what method of equalizing works
best! (and I've been keeping my pack working for 4 years).
2 amps for one hour does work, it also does slightly vent some
batteries. I suspect that keeping it up would give rated cycle life,
but would abuse the pack so it wouldn't do alot better (and my pack
is past their rated life). My favorite method at this time is just
one diode for an hour (worlds smallest equalizer <g>). My pack
voltage is 120v, the one diode makes a 1/2 wave rectifier for 120vac.
I plug that into the fully charged pack for one hour. It starts at
about 2 amps at 15.3 volts per Optima. It ends at about 600ma at
about 16.2 volts per Optima (pretty tight for 4 year old abused
Optimas).
Getting all the Optimas full without regs (so I can equalize) is a
whole 'nother issue. Each spring the pack is at its worst, I often
have to float charge for a week to get them close. Then I have to
leave them between 14.7 and 15.0 volts for 12 to 24 hours to get them
full and in tight agreement. *Only* then can I equalize. During the
driving season (for a Buggy), I give them some sort of equalization
once a week. That's every 3 to 6 cycles (typical cycle is between 40%
and 65% DOD). My favored method given above was used most of the time
last year. However, 2 amps for 1 hour was also used a couple of
times. Now if next spring makes for *alot* more difficult balancing
then I know it was not the best choice on my part (balanced against
their advancing age). All I really know right now is what I was doing
did very well last year (while they where kept "in play").
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't remember the name of the car, but he said it was the same size as
the first Honda's here in the USA, those little orange two door cars, these
are full cars, 70 MPH, real glass and everything, brand new just off the
line without engines, I think he said there were 3k delivered to Vegas with
papers. His name is Miro Kefurt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "Bob Rice"
> Hmmm? MIGS, Tupoluvs? Sorry, couldn't resist. What are they, Volgas
or
> Ladas, Russian cars that I have heard of. Saw one at a Russian Trade Show
in
> NYC yearz ago. charmed me as it had a CRANK as standard equipment. Stowed
> under the hood, and the teletale hole in the bumper that it passed through
> to get to the crankshaft. The kindly Russian gentleman, showing me the
car,
> sed that it gets COLD in Russia, and sometimes it needs to be cranked,
> although i would imagine it wouldn't be easy to crank in the cold he had
in
> mind?
>
> Pasrticularly enjoyed talking to the Russian RR people there, too. A
> railway through, like ,8 time zones, and ELECTRIC too. Nice pix of their
> train atuff, to enjoy.Amtrak only goes through 3 here, for comparison. And
> we're lucky to get that many.
>
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sunday 05 January 2003 09:46, gail wrote:
> Thanks for any comments, or information on how sales are going, if such
> data are available.
The Segway is selling better than many digital cameras.
http://asia.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/12/27/amazon.segway.reut/
--
Peace can only come as a natural consequence
of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> An old pack usually has considerable differences in capacity between
> batteries. It's important to know which ones are your "stinkers". Often,
> your range will *increase* by taking batteries out!
Yup did that for a while. But taking a battery out makes the others work
harder and it wasn't long until I had to pull the second battery out.
Drove it for about a week until two more starting sagging early. At
that point I put the other two back in and starter heating the pack up
as I described.
I tried buying used batteries but all of the electric golf carts in
Sierra Vista use 6V batteries. I couldn't find anybody with used 8V
batteries. The dealers in Tucson don't want to sell used batteries
'cause they can't guarantee them. I said I don't care about guarantee's
still no go.
I did buy one new battery about 8-9 months back, but they cost $85
each. Right now I have 4 very weak and two more sorta weak batteries.
Not cost effect to replace them, so I'm going to see how long I can drag
out the pack.
> If you plan to change to 6v batteries anyway, you can replace the
> stinkers with 6v batteries. Given the old low-capacity pack and the
> higher capacity of 6v batteries in general, the 6v will only get a
> rather shallow discharge, and so last longer. Note that it will tend to
> get undercharged, and increase the overcharging of the rest of the 8v;
> but that's probably OK in this case.
I rather have all my new 6V batteries with the same number of cycles on
them. If I buy some now they won't quite match the rest of the pack
later, besides I only have to get another month before I retire from the
military and have 90 days (paid) vacation on my hands.
>
> > I now ignore the pack voltage, my 120V pack frequently drops into the
> > 80's on the return trip.
>
> This will greatly hasten the death of whichever batteries are
> responsible for such low voltages! Does the voltage bounce back over
> 120v when you let them rest 5-10 seconds? If so, you probably aren't
> reversing any cells (yet).
Not in 5-10 seconds, more like 30-45. But like I said the batteries no
longer give acceptable performance when I keep them above 105 volts
anyway. They are shot, but as long as they still move the truck I'll
keep using them, even if I'm hastening their complete demise.
>
> Here's another trick in the "Don't Try Hhis at Home!" handbook: Find
> your bad cells (bad specific gravity). If a battery has only one bad
> cell, drain it and drive some big stainless steel screws into it to
> solidly short it out. This can turn a bad 8v battery into a good 6v
> battery.
Hmm, I think I'll try that. Though a couple of them have two bad cells,
still might get enough to do ok for a bit.
> Obviously, you have to adjust your charger to compensate for whatever
> your new pack voltage is.
That's easy enough, I've been just using my Fair Radio charger for about
6 months now anyway. My K&W shorted out and I haven't had time to fix
it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's one possibility, but it has enough power to be acceptable here in the
US, they had to give the Toyota more power to be acceptable here in the US,
I was thinking it need to be underpowered to the point of where the Japanese
think its underpowered, now that's what you need for a hybrid.
From: "Paul G"
> >You would have to find a really light weight underpowered car to start
with
> >or your return would be minimal,I don't think we got one of those here in
> >the states.
>
> Then what is a Geo Metro Rich <g>?
>
> Neon
>
> P.S. - not to offend anyone, I own one myself
>
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Furniss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion,comments
> I don't remember the name of the car, but he said it was the same size as
> the first Honda's here in the USA, those little orange two door cars,
these
> are full cars, 70 MPH, real glass and everything, brand new just off the
> line without engines, I think he said there were 3k delivered to Vegas
with
> papers. His name is Miro Kefurt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Hi All;
They sound like fun. Gees! Just think of working with a CLEAN glidetr. Oh
Joy! Not spending daze scraping and washing crap out of everywhere to
convert to electric. Wonder if he has any up and running as EV's? A test bed
for Evercells? Yes! Hafta give him a shout, has anybody else?
Seeya
Bob
> > Hmmm? MIGS, Tupoluvs? Sorry, couldn't resist. What are they,
Volgas
> or
> > Ladas, Russian cars that I have heard of. Saw one at a Russian Trade
Show
> in
> > NYC yearz ago. charmed me as it had a CRANK as standard equipment.
Stowed
> > under the hood, and the teletale hole in the bumper that it passed
through
> > to get to the crankshaft. The kindly Russian gentleman, showing me the
> car,
> > sed that it gets COLD in Russia, and sometimes it needs to be cranked,
> > although i would imagine it wouldn't be easy to crank in the cold he had
> in
> > mind?
> >
> > Pasrticularly enjoyed talking to the Russian RR people there, too. A
> > railway through, like ,8 time zones, and ELECTRIC too. Nice pix of their
> > train atuff, to enjoy.Amtrak only goes through 3 here, for comparison.
And
> > we're lucky to get that many.
> >
> www.lasvegasev.com
> Richard Furniss
> Las Vegas, NV
> 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> Board Member, www.lveva.org
> Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Request for information from non-list person.
-----Original Message-----
From: al allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:23 AM
Can you put me in contact with anyone that would have a wiring diagram for a
1996 48volt. trans2?? I need help BAD.
Thanks AL (a60d60-at-yahoo-dot-com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember someone on this list had built a hybrid and it was discussed
about a year or so ago. It was a series hybrid and, I believe, had a small
two cylinder engine driving a generator. He normally ran it as an EV and
recharged off the grid, but could use the generator as a range extender or
to recharge the pack if he got in a bind.
Obviously, the efficiency of such a setup will be relatively low when using
the generator, but was still better than maintaining, insuring , etc. an
extra vehicle for the few times you need just a little more range.
For someone who lives in an apartment and can't charge off the grid, this
setup would be worse than most ICE's, but for someone who only needs the ICE
occasionally, this could be a workable solution. I don't remember who had
built this now, but if he's still on the list, perhaps he'll chime in.
Dave Davidson
Laurel, MD
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:50:14 -0800
That's one possibility, but it has enough power to be acceptable here in
the
US, they had to give the Toyota more power to be acceptable here in the US,
I was thinking it need to be underpowered to the point of where the
Japanese
think its underpowered, now that's what you need for a hybrid.
From: "Paul G"
> >You would have to find a really light weight underpowered car to start
with
> >or your return would be minimal,I don't think we got one of those here
in
> >the states.
>
> Then what is a Geo Metro Rich <g>?
>
> Neon
>
> P.S. - not to offend anyone, I own one myself
>
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aspire goes its first thousand miles with replacing a couple of bad
batteries the only problem. Good news is I aquired 22 more batteries from a
former Delphi user and can put my Lectra back together. That is where I got
the two good batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Segway interest
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:46:56 -0800 (PST)
Hello Everyone,
Now that the Segway is for sale on Amazon.com do you think it will become
a popular transportation option?
The Segway strikes me as a vehicle with a very narrow niche. I think it
would work well for specialized applications such as the Post office, or
inside warehouses. Perhaps it might work well for security personnel in
large casino resorts.
However for longer distances in outdoor commuting I don't think it will
catch on very well. I would just as soon sit down when traveling for a few
miles. Even if I was riding a stand up scooter I would feel more comfortable
riding someting with one wheel in front of the other.
Have any on the EV list ordered one?
I have not, too expensive for me.
I
know it is not a high speed racing EV so will not appeal to some, but for
those of us whose main objective is clean air, via any possible means,
this little unit is seen as an EV which might get some people out of their
automobiles, and it is becoming available. I am trying to determine
whether there would be enough of them tooling about Las Vegas in the near
future that it might be time to start decision making on things like
where they will be allowed, if they can be taken on the bus (on the bike
racks, or on board like a wheelchair), whether charging should be made
available in shopping malls, if they can be included in the list of
alternative methods of getting to work for points on the RTC Club Ride
program which now counts bicycling, walking, riding the bus and car
pooling.
I definitely want to see charging stations here in the valley. And what
better place to put them than in these huge parking garages behind all these
major casino resorts. I could park the EV, and fast charge while eating a
buffet lunch. I would think small ebikes and scooters should be allowed on
the buses. I would like to see the RTC become more EV aware.
I would like to see EV's of any kind traveling around the Las Vegas
valley. I would prefer to see greater development resulting in freeway
capable EVs that can be purchased at a dealer, as well as lightweight
ebikes, and also places away from home to charge them, for apartment
dwellers like myself.
Thanks for any comments, or information on how sales are going, if such
data are available.
Gail
Just my 8 cents per kwh here. Regards, A.K. Howard. Unincorporated Clark
County, Nevada.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the newcomers to the EV Digest, we offer a free copy of our technical
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The paper serves as an ideal punch list to evaluate a vehicle being built or
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you've only driven a few miles, how long can you let the batteries sit
before charging?
Our Trojan flooded lead acid batteries can be drawn down to 80%. If we only
draw them down to 95 or 90% and then charge them, does that constitute a
charging cycle?
Would it be better to keep drawing the batteries down the following day and
then charge them or should they be charged every day the car is driven?
Johanna and Stan Soliday
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Working on my first 'EV' with what dangerously basic knowledge I've gained
from this list, I discovered that my vintage Craftsman electric lawnmower
does indeed have a universal motor. On 12VDC it spins much more slowly, but
without the annoying grating noise that has always accompanied 120VAC
operation. With a quick test, I didn't notice much more speed at 24 VDC.
If I use some small, sealed lead-acid deep-cycle "Power Wheels" 12V
batteries in series to get 36 volts or more, can I expect to get close to
full speed operation?
Thanks
Jay Donnaway
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At 09:07 AM 1/6/2003 -0600, a.k. howard stated:
The Segway strikes me as a vehicle with a very narrow niche. I think it
would work well for specialized applications such as the Post office, or
inside warehouses. Perhaps it might work well for security personnel in
large casino resorts.
It would be VERY nice to have while visiting Las Vegas. It's often a 1/2
mi or more between Casinos/Hotels, and walking gets really hard on the feet.
What they need is a rental rack for them at the front of each Casino.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
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I don't think you should expect to get back up to full power until you get
back up to full voltage which in your case would be 10 12V batts. There is
really very little difference between DC and AC across a universal motor.
damon
From: Jay Donnaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] (E-mail)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:56:53 -0500
Working on my first 'EV' with what dangerously basic knowledge I've gained
from this list, I discovered that my vintage Craftsman electric lawnmower
does indeed have a universal motor. On 12VDC it spins much more slowly,
but
without the annoying grating noise that has always accompanied 120VAC
operation. With a quick test, I didn't notice much more speed at 24 VDC.
If I use some small, sealed lead-acid deep-cycle "Power Wheels" 12V
batteries in series to get 36 volts or more, can I expect to get close to
full speed operation?
Thanks
Jay Donnaway
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Universal motors have a somewhat odd property in that their RPM is not
directly tied to applied voltage.
Because of how they work, Universal motors want to keep accelerating until
they go into self-disassembly mode. The only thing that halts this
acceleration is sufficient load on the motor. At low voltages the friction
load on the motor is usually enough to equalize at some safe RPM. Your
motor was probably designed so that the friction load and the windage load
of the blade were enough to keep it at a safe RPM.
If you were to remove the blade from the motor (perhaps you already have?)
and connect it to 110V AC it might possibly spin up fast enough to self
destruct.
At any rate I would hazard a guess that at 36V you might get enough power
out of the motor to accelerate a small light vehicle (like a bicycle) up to
15-20 mph if you gear it properly. Add more voltage and you will get more
power and potentially a higher top speed.
Again, how fast the motor spins is dependent on both the applied voltage AND
the load on the motor.
Hope this helps. Cheers.
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>I remember someone on this list had built a hybrid and it was discussed
>about a year or so ago. It was a series hybrid and, I believe, had a small
>two cylinder engine driving a generator.
While I agree this is simpler and cheaper than maintaining a second ICE
vehicle, if you use the typical "lawnmower" type motor on this you will
generate more pollution driving 100 miles a month that the typical SUV
driver does in a month.
If anyone is contemplating this I would recommend that they at least use
something like one of Honda's new low-emission small engines, or better yet
some clean burning alternative fuel.
Perhaps even a small diesel engine running on straight vegetable oil. You
could use a standard diesel backup generator with an electric crankcase
heater and an electric emersion heater in the fuel tank (since you will have
on-board electrical power anyway) to preheat the motor and fuel, and could
then run a single tank system. You could get your fuel for free from places
like McDonalds and Taco Bell, etc.
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Are all universal motors, series wound? Could a shunt field winding work
with AC and DC or would the reactance/impedance change too much?
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of VanDerWal, Peter MSgt
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:20 AM
To: 'EV List'
Subject: basic and very much On Topic (was basic and OT; DC voltage vs
universal AC motor)
Universal motors have a somewhat odd property in that their RPM is not
directly tied to applied voltage.
Because of how they work, Universal motors want to keep accelerating until
they go into self-disassembly mode. The only thing that halts this
<< snip >>
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>If you've only driven a few miles, how long can you let the batteries sit
>before charging?
>Our Trojan flooded lead acid batteries can be drawn down to 80%. If we only
>draw them down to 95 or 90% and then charge them, does that constitute a
>charging cycle?
Yes it does.
>Would it be better to keep drawing the batteries down the following day and
>then charge them or should they be charged every day the car is driven?
Charging batteries contributes to their demise (though not as much as
leaving them very discharged).
If you only use 10% a day, and know for a fact that you won't need a full
charge the next day, then by all means only charge them every other day or
even every three days.
You can leave them 10% discharged for a month and it won't harm them. In
fact most battery manufactures recommend NOT charging the batteries until
you have used at least 20% of their charge.
You will (probably) get the best life from them charging every 2 to 3 days
if you only use 10% per day. If you only use 5% per day I might only charge
them weekly.
What it comes down to is that if you are certain you won't need a full
charge tomorrow, you should only charge them once you've used 20-30% of
their charge. (20% gives maximum cycle vs use)
Note!!! This is 20% of their charge AT THE APPLIED CURRENT LEVEL. I.e. you
might have batteries rated to produce 225 AH at the 20 hour rate, however
they might only be capable of producing 100-120 AH at EV power levels. You
will want to recharge these when they have used 20% of the EV AH (roughly
20-25 AH) not 20% of the 20 hr rating (which would be 45 AH). This is not
to say that you will harm the batteries by using 45 AH before charging them,
just that you will get longer life by charging them after only 20-25 AH.
Does this help?
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The fellow you're thinking of is Alain St-Yves. Here's a link to his
website...
http://www.rocler.qc.ca/levehiculevert/generateur.htm
Alain's website helped guide me through building a copy of his
generator, though mine uses a smaller 8.5Hp OHV Robin/Subaru electric
start engine coupled to a Baldor 5Hp 3-phase motor instead. Last night
I rebuilt the capacitor/rectifier box and recorded some data samples by
fiddling with the e-meter at random times. This isn't the best way to
get accurate data, but it can reveal rough performance data:
Amps, Volts, Watts
24.0, 155, 3720
21.8, 160.5, 3499
24.4, 154.0, 3758
24.3, 152.5, 3706
24.5, 151.0, 3700
23.0, 154.0, 3542
The ammeter reached 25.4 a couple of times, but I couldn't catch the
voltage quick enough. I suspect 27 amps or more is possible under
acceleration load. Alain's setup has much more power. He's built
several of these with currents up into the 40 amp range.
-Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Dave Davidson
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
I remember someone on this list had built a hybrid and it was discussed
about a year or so ago. It was a series hybrid and, I believe, had a
small
two cylinder engine driving a generator. He normally ran it as an EV
and
recharged off the grid, but could use the generator as a range extender
or
to recharge the pack if he got in a bind.
Obviously, the efficiency of such a setup will be relatively low when
using
the generator, but was still better than maintaining, insuring , etc. an
extra vehicle for the few times you need just a little more range.
For someone who lives in an apartment and can't charge off the grid,
this
setup would be worse than most ICE's, but for someone who only needs the
ICE
occasionally, this could be a workable solution. I don't remember who
had
built this now, but if he's still on the list, perhaps he'll chime in.
Dave Davidson
Laurel, MD
1993 Dodge TEVan
>From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
>Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:50:14 -0800
>
>That's one possibility, but it has enough power to be acceptable here
in
>the
>US, they had to give the Toyota more power to be acceptable here in the
US,
>I was thinking it need to be underpowered to the point of where the
>Japanese
>think its underpowered, now that's what you need for a hybrid.
>
>From: "Paul G"
>
> > >You would have to find a really light weight underpowered car to
start
>with
> > >or your return would be minimal,I don't think we got one of those
here
>in
> > >the states.
> >
> > Then what is a Geo Metro Rich <g>?
> >
> > Neon
> >
> > P.S. - not to offend anyone, I own one myself
> >
>www.lasvegasev.com
>Richard Furniss
>Las Vegas, NV
>1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
>1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
>3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
>Board Member, www.lveva.org
>Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
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On 4 Jan 2003 at 12:26, Paul G wrote:
> Then what is a Geo Metro Rich <g>?
Out of production in the US.
There are no low-cost minicars in the US. None. We have no equivalent of
the Ford Ka and Renault Twingo. The BMW Mini and Honda Insight are
available but neither is a true minicar. They are also pricey.
I believe the smallest available low-cost vehicle is the Kia Rio, which is
about the same size as the old Kia Avella / Ford Aspire. It might make a
good conversion.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> I received this message recently. Does anyone know anything more
> about this? Is it possible? Does it increase capacity significantly?
> What are the drawbacks?
>
>> I have also heard that it is possible to convert an Optima to a wet
>> cell, and that you get more capacity out of them if you do so. You
>> may not even have to take the top off, adding water by injection
>> and leaving a hole to vent. This takes away the advantage of a
>> sealed battery, but gives more capacity.
I hope I'm not the one who started this rumor.
I have some year-old Optimas that had their cover seals broken by
handling abuse. They had lost water, and so had low capacity. I glued
the seals, and drilled six vent holes to add water to each cell. One
battery returned to normal capacity, and the other two had an increase
in capacity, though still lower than what it should have been.
This is *not* converting it into a flooded battery, and capacity did not
increase above normal. In fact, I found that adding too much water only
increases the battery's internal resistance, worsening performance.
Tow of the three batteries I tried this on
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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The Subaru OHV engine on mine produces less emission than most. It
meets CA emission requirements, though I haven't read what they are. It
can also be converted to run on Propane, at the expense of power and
ease of use. I do like the bio-diesel idea. If my engine dies it will
likely be replaced with a diesel.
How does one measure the amount of pollution from these small engines?
Can I take it to an emission station and ask nicely? I have trouble
doubt the "100 miles a month" estimate below without more data.
Before I get bashed to pieces for gasifying my EV, here's my preemptive
defense...
1.) My EV is my main vehicle. I use it everyday... as an electric. My
generator is my backup fuel station in case the grid goes down.
2.) I rarely run the generator. It sits in the garage most of the
time.
3.) My other vehicle is a SULEV, a Toyota Prius, not a SUV or other
pure gasser.
4.) My garden tractor is a clean and quiet electric. (GE E-12M)
5.) My push mower is electric.
6.) My trimmer is electric and not a 2-cycle smoke bomb.
7.) My snowblower is electric.
What's in your garage?
The generator is a good solution for me. I'm happy with it and thankful
for Alain's help.
-Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of VanDerWal, Peter MSgt
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 9:30 AM
To: 'EV List'
Subject: Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion
>I remember someone on this list had built a hybrid and it was discussed
>about a year or so ago. It was a series hybrid and, I believe, had a
small
>two cylinder engine driving a generator.
While I agree this is simpler and cheaper than maintaining a second ICE
vehicle, if you use the typical "lawnmower" type motor on this you will
generate more pollution driving 100 miles a month that the typical SUV
driver does in a month.
If anyone is contemplating this I would recommend that they at least use
something like one of Honda's new low-emission small engines, or better
yet
some clean burning alternative fuel.
Perhaps even a small diesel engine running on straight vegetable oil.
You
could use a standard diesel backup generator with an electric crankcase
heater and an electric emersion heater in the fuel tank (since you will
have
on-board electrical power anyway) to preheat the motor and fuel, and
could
then run a single tank system. You could get your fuel for free from
places
like McDonalds and Taco Bell, etc.
--- End Message ---
