EV Digest 2520
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charging questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Making a Free Electric Lawn Mower
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EVLN(ZAP's 3x performance batt forward-looking statements)-long, comments
added
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT Vehicle safety: Bigger isn't better
by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: SVR-14
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Well To Wheels efficiency studies
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Making a Free Electric Lawn Mower
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fw: Russian cars, Sentra's an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion,comments
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: gimme a brake ...
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Fw: Charging questions an' Thoughts
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: electric breadbasket/new catch phrase.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fw: Charging questions an' Thoughts
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Russian cars, Sentra's an' Stuff
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: OT Vehicle safety: Bigger isn't better
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: gimme a brake ...
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Trojan battery caps
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Fw: EVLN(ZAP's 3x performance batt forward-looking statements)-long, comments
added
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> Charging is a black art. I don't think most people are going to
> put up with it (what a lot of us go through trying to keep our
> batteries running well), and it will require sophisticated
> idiotproof battery management to make batteries work for most
> people.
I wouldn't say it is a "black" art, but it is certainly as much art as
science.
It seems like batteries behave almost like a living thing. They respond
well to good care, and badly to poor treatment. Like the family pet, you
can't just lock them in a cage and blindly feed them identically every
day. It works for a while, but the animal changes over time. It needs
exercise, and attention, and gets sick once in a while for no apparent
reason. You have to keep monitoring it, and adjusting what you do
accordingly.
This imposes limitations on any kind of automatic battery charging
system. Most of them blindly do exactly the same thing on every charge
cycle, no matter what. This works OK when everything is fine, but it
works poorly at detecting and correcting problems. So, the problems go
undetected, and get worse until the battery dies.
For years I've thought that we need to build a fuzzy logic battery
charger. No, fuzzy logic is not a joke; it is a serious scientific
discipline for dealing with problems where you do not have sufficient
data to make a perfect decision, but you do have enough to make a "good"
one.
Here's an example of a fuzzy charging algorithm:
- charge with as much current as the charger can deliver until the
battery starts to gas
- reduce charging current to hold the gassing rate constant
- you're done when the battery temperature starts to rise, or the
voltage stops rising
Notice that there isn't a single number in that algorithm. It doesn't
know what the battery voltage is, or its amphour capacity. This means it
adapts automatically to the battery. It still works with an old battery,
or if a cell dies, or if the battery is hot.
It *does* want to know about gassing. We usually use voltage as in
indication of this, but that is indirect and leads to so many of our
complications (like a need to know battery voltage, temperature
compensation, etc.). Something like a pressure sensor or hydrogen gas
detector would provide a more accurate indication.
It also wants to know temperature. Again, we usually don't measure it,
though it has a significant effect on battery chemistry.
My guess is that algorithms like this would lead to more "foolproof"
chargers. But they might be more expensive, because of the types of
sensors used. Designers often choose to do what is easy, rather than
what they know would work better.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> So this brings to mind an experiment I tried with a stand-up
> floor fan a year or two ago. Three-speed switch and off. Set it
> on one of the speeds and hooked up a variac plus rectifier to the
> AC plug of the fan... Probably up at about 90V... and still no
> spinning of the fan blades.
That's because it had an induction motor. It will only run on AC.
Normally, we think of induction motors as constant-speed motors. That's
not completely true; they behave more like a constant-speed synchronous
motor with a torque converter. This magnetic torque converter always
slips a little, but it can be made to slip a lot (such as for starting,
or when you apply too much load for the applied voltage).
So, a multi-speed induction motor can be made two ways. First, wind it
with more than one set of windings; a 2-pole set for 3450 rpm, a 4-pole
set for 1725 rpm, a 6-pole set for 1150 rpm, etc. The speed switch
selects the appropriate set of windings.
But this is expensive. The cheap approach (and so almost universally
used) is to just tap the one main winding. In effect, it is a
single-speed motor with a 120/208/240vac winding. But you only only have
120vac. When you put 120vac on the 240vac winding, the motor is in
effect running on half voltage. It can't produce full power, and can't
get the fan up to full speed. It runs slowly with a lot of slip. The
motor gets hot and wastes electricity, but it does run slow. The
manufacturer saved $1 on the motor, and you pay for the electricity.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brendan Kirby wrote:
>
> I power my lawn mower, chain saw, and leaf blower from a 120 VDC plug on my
> truck when I am too far from a regular AC outlet. Far from being a pain I
> find this much better than having separate battery packs or gas engines for
> each device. Works great. You just have to be careful not to turn the
> device off with the normal switch.
Very true! A normal AC-rated switch is likely to fail the first time it
tries to interrupt 120 volts DC.
In my 120vdc lawn mower, the stock switch controlled a DC-rated
contactor that switch power to the motor.
For your AC appliances, be aware that none of their internal fuses or
thermal protectors will work on DC, either. If one of them tries to
trip, it will probably arc and weld fully on!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I followed the comments on universal motors etc. and it reminded me a
way of getting a "free" battery operated lawn mower.
Here in Phoenix, we have a factory repair center for Black and Decker,
and the process is called dumpster diving.
Bad news: When they can't or don't want to fix a mower, they hit it with
a sledge hammer before tossing it. Maybe insurance, maybe churning
their customers, but they frown upon dumpster diving as well. The
neighbors might call the cops.
Good news: They throw out so many lawn mowers, it only takes a trip or
two to get all the parts for building up one good mower. That would
include good batteries and a charger.
I am not recommending it, nor even admitting that I may have done it.
Mike '79 Jet ElectrVan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Adams, Lynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: EVLN(ZAP's 3x performance batt forward-looking
statements)-long, comments added
> I bet ZAP's 3x performance battery look a lot like a Thunder-sky Li-ion.
>
I hope so! The Thunder Sky thing has been pretty quiet, lately! With a
name like that, too bad<g>!
>
Bob..........Leaden sky , lead acids...still.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
If you drive SUV considering its specifics and limitations in handling,
it is just as safe as cars, and safer than, say, Geo metro in head-on
collisions from pure bulk mass stand point. We've debated it too.
Don't start about cornering and turnover stuff - you 're not suppose
to drive it like that; SUV aren't designed and will never deliver
regular car's maneuverability. Some people still try, then complain,
and write articles. Well, see paragraph 1 above.
Unfortunately, Victor, maneuverability and center of gravity are
still major safety issues. I'm sure if the whole world drove
perfectly, than you'd have a chance at being theoretically correct
and on average SUVs would be safer than some other types of vehicles.
But the unexpected can and does happen, whether as a result of
pedestrians, other drivers, poor weather conditions, natural hazards
(animals or falling rocks, e.g.), or even an otherwise careful driver
simply not having had enough sleep the night before.
When those unexpected things happen, the driver with the biggest
advantage will be the one who can maneuver quickly and safely out of
harm's way, avoiding an accident entirely. That does not describe
the SUV, which has poor handling and in an extreme situation is 100%
more likely to roll. Even the best driver may have only a
distasteful choice: Do I hit the pedestrian that just entered
traffic without looking, or do I slam the wheel over, try to miss
him, and risk the vehicle rolling? You have 0.1 seconds to decide.
Most drivers will (hopefully) opt for the latter, and SUV drivers
will be at a significant disadvantage if they do.
Having said all that, this is really just theoretical speculation
without a trace of data to back it up. The study that prompted this
thread actually contained some data, and while you certainly may
dispute the validity of the study, it certainly provides at least
*some* evidence that SUVs are in fact less safe than other vehicle
types.
One thing that science is particularly good at is proving that common
sense may be absolutely dead wrong. The earth really *does* go
around the sun, you know.
--
-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought 6 of the 13AH Hawkers that are advertised on the EV Tradin Post. I
am very happy with the quality of what I got and only had to pay $155
including shipping. I can't see how you could do better then this deal.
damon
From: Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: SVR-14
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:41:09 -0600
Has anyone looked at the SVR-14 that EVParts.com has listed? It is a SLA
that is being classed as a competition battery. Just wondering if it would
hold up for general EV use.
Does anyone know of a better battery in the 10-15 Ah range?
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen several people mention studies that show EV's are better at Well
to Wheels efficiency, but I can't find those studies, or the references
that mentioned them.
Could someone tell me where they are?
I did a bunch of Google searches, but only found ones referring to
Fuel-Cell, Hybrid, or Diesel vehicles.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you ever never do it again please don't e-mail me as I won't be
interested in getting one.
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
A paperless office has about as much chance as a paperless bathroom.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Michael A. Radtke
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:51 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Making a Free Electric Lawn Mower
Hello,
I followed the comments on universal motors etc. and it reminded me a
way of getting a "free" battery operated lawn mower.
Here in Phoenix, we have a factory repair center for Black and Decker,
and the process is called dumpster diving.
Bad news: When they can't or don't want to fix a mower, they hit it with
a sledge hammer before tossing it. Maybe insurance, maybe churning
their customers, but they frown upon dumpster diving as well. The
neighbors might call the cops.
Good news: They throw out so many lawn mowers, it only takes a trip or
two to get all the parts for building up one good mower. That would
include good batteries and a charger.
I am not recommending it, nor even admitting that I may have done it.
Mike '79 Jet ElectrVan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
I don't know what's up here? Hafta resend postings in "Forward" to get
on, now as i get the "Warning Can't send " thing from Windoz and Out look
Distress mail thing, days later. If their are two posts of mine the same,
thats the Snail mail speed it's working at?!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:18 PM
Subject: Fw: Russian cars, Sentra's an' Stuff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Russian cars
>
>
> > www.okaauto.com
> >
> > The LOW SPEED INCOMPLETE VEHICLE is $3,000 but you MUST be registered as
a
> manufacturer with EPA, DOT and your state before you can legally purchase
> them (3 minimum) and when completed they must confirm to standard 500 for
> low speed vehicles (See DOT regulations) MAXIMUM attainable speed MUST be
> below 25 MPH or 40 km/h
> >
> > OKA AUTO USA
> >
> > Hi All;
>
> Heres the response I got from OKA Auto. Ah POO! We need MORE , traffic
> blocking NEV's like Iraq needs more nukes. I was thinking of a Blue Meanie
> with a Russian twist. guess it's back to sniffing out the current crop of
> gas rigs to find one to convert. I have given serious thought to my newer
94
> Nissan Sentra, a basic plain jane 4 door sedan, the one I drove out to
> Woodburn last year. Havent taken the first step, weighing it up as a gas,
> but it will do 40 plus on the highway, MPG, that is, it's PLENTY fast
> enough, 100 plus on Montana's Open Road. HAD to try it<g>!But I hate to
cram
> 1400 lbs of battery into it. Evercells come to mind? Like Sheers Honda,
> maybe only several hundred lbs of batteries, wouldn't need hevier
> springs!?One of the guyz at work has a cute 2 door Sentra, maybe lighter
> than the 4 door, I know doors are #$%^ heavy, car could be a few hundred
lbs
> lighter? Any thoughts? Comments on a relatively newer conversion, good
> candidate, in a CAR, not interested in a truck. I know I would just belt
> drive the sentras AC off the motor shaft, along with my vacuun pump
>
> Cruise control: It is nice on the Sentra, and I was impressed with the
> miliage increase on long flites asross country, when I set it up, and just
> aimed the car, from there. Maybe it would give ya better range on an EV?
> Don't know how ya would set it up in an Ev, but I'm sure it could run off
a
> tach setup on a Raptur. Of course you would hafta replace the heater core
> with a few creramic elements. Seemless swap, as the functions work great
on
> the stock Sentra.Notice I didn't say anything about smoke shows, only want
> to keep up with traffic, if it'll tweek the tires, so be it, but I want
> something basic to get to work, or run errands, or take a few people with
> me, as need be. A newer Rabbit, with the newer safety stuff, air bags and
> all that. The Sentra REALLY isn't a small car, but by US standards, SUV
> land I guess it is.Maybe it has a decent CD, as it is a roundy sort of
> body.Better than say the 87 I'm fixing up?Boxy as hell, on that one.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob.......thinking of a newer EV
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jan 2003 at 11:51, Evan Tuer wrote:
> I think Daewoo must be quite enthusiastic about EVs - they've provided
> gliders
> to Solectria in the past.
Were those the gliders for the Flash mini-trucks? They were sold as NEVs
and 45+ mph off-road vehicles because they didn't have FMVSS certification.
A pity, since these mini-pickup chassis (though an old design) are pretty
versatile. They have ^huge^ beds for their size, and can (and do) carry
just about anything.
http://www2.ald.net/~roden/korea/album/vtruck.htm
These trucks are manufactured and used all over Asia. The basic chassis is
similar to that in the old Jet vans. Any of them would be a respectable
conversion candidate, IMO, if you could find a way to import it and deal
with the parts issues.
Also, I'm pretty sure that ATT, which has shown a reportedly nice prototype
electric car at various venues, was founded by ex-Daewoo people.
> They have a nice 4-door city car here in the UK
> (750 cc 3cyl engine!) which I thought would make a good compact conversion,
> with the right batteries. http://www.mymatiz.com/ for picture.
The Matiz is indeed pretty tiny. I think you'd have trouble cramming in
enough batteries, though. The older Tico, with more squareish lines, might
be easier to fit.
http://www2.ald.net/~roden/korea/photos/tico.htm
> Do you get
> these in the States?
No. I wish we did. The US has no real minicars at all, unless you count
the BMW Mini, which though small is a good bit bloated from the English
original.
> One downside - Daewoo were recently bought by GM!
A major bummer, IMO. Too bad Fiat pulled out of the bidding, but I think
both they and Ford got scared when they saw the magnitude of Daewoo Motor's
economic problems. They had a ^lot^ of debt.
Speaking of Daewoo and their problems -- automakers all over the world are
enthusiastic about SUVs as their "saviors" because they have such a high
profit margin. Daewoo had a good grip on that market in Korea, with both
the Jeep-like Korando and the enormous, lumbering (and popular) Musso from
the Daewoo-owned truck maker Sssangyong, but they went bankrupt anyway. Go
figure.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Jan 2003 at 11:29, Bob Rice wrote:
> Do I really want to run 13's in back an' 14's in
> front.
No, no, you put the 14" wheels in the back and the 13" in front. Then you
can go forever without charging because the car is always going downhill.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Charging questions an' Thoughts
> Hi Johanna an' Stan;
>
> I have found that a few miles, they don't care,re charge in a
> reasonable time again, same day, or so, or overnite.
>
> Afraid that would be called a cycle, but they go for thousands of lite
> cycles like that, it's those deep cycles, where you inch home on a few
> remaining volts, like 80 percent, is a deep cycle, those cycles count big
> time toward your batteries earlier retirement. This is what turns off
alota
> EV wannabees, as the batteries will do their extended commute, for awile,
> but as they lose power from deep discharges, they don't make it home
> anymore. "EV for sale, needs batteries" as they turn up on E bay. They
would
> find a happy home with guyz like you, with a modest mile commute.John
> Lussmyer's Sparrow, being a prime example. He's searching for better
> batteries, as his Optimas won't go the distance anymore. The other end of
> that spectrom is John Wayland's Blue Meany, Datsun conversion, with
Optimas.
> HE goes about 25 miles, at hiway speeds, never passing up an oportunity to
> dust a disbelieving gas car or two. He should post more of the Blue Meanie
> Stories, or fun with EV's. But his secret is a state of the art charger,
> thanks Rich Rudman, and fast and frequent charges, 'round PDX, as he
goes.A
> light nicely designed conversion, not an elephant on Roller Skates, like
my
> 82 Rabbit. I piled in the lead@120 volts of T 145's to do my 56 mile RT
> commute. I NEEDED enough juice to get home, 450 foot climb, if I couldn't
> plug in at work. In the summer I can do it easily, but today, say, would
> need the plug in at work, it's 25 degrees and #$%^ SNOWING today. To get
> home at hiway speeds. But slogging along in the snow at 30, no problem. I
> don't drive it in this weather, as why hasten the demise of an older,
clean
> car, salt sand and all that crap imbedded in fender wells, and underneith.
I
> have been cought in the snow, and it is sorta cool, on the two laners
> gliding along through the snow, silently, softly, enjoying nature's
magisty.
> Classical tunes on the radio. Heavy 3300 lb car goes fine. you hasfta TRY
to
> spin the wheels, but yu gotta keep in mind that I only weigh slightly less
> than a Greyhound bus when ya gotta stop<g>!A thing forgotten by alotta SUV
> pilots as you see them in the bushes or wheels to the sky.
>
> Sorry got carried away.Last question, Plug it in whenever ya get the
> chance! You're batteries will thank you and reward your love with lottsa
> life. Yul get used to doing that in awile, part of the EV lifestyle, so to
> speak. Have a handy place with cords in place and ready to use. when yu
get
> out of the car, walk around to the back, insert cord, walk away, with a
warm
> warm, as yur car is happy. On the same theme, UNPLUG BEFORE driving off if
> yu don't have a power knockoff setup so you can't just drive off, plugged
> in. I have, in my early daze of EVing. Folks honking and yelling at you as
> yu drag the cord along behind you! Slows ya down a bit, with road
friction,
> too<g>! You will get used to the plug an' unplug gig, pretty fast, and
> forget how to use gas pumps, too. Hey ! That's the name of the game!! Was
> embarrissing the first few daze of last summer's Woodburn trip from CT to
> PDX. "Gees! Howthehell ya work this thing?" to other gass folks at the
> fillup time. They look at you funny, and I say " Well, sorry, I don't
> normally buy this stuff, I have an electric car at home" By the time I got
> out West, got good at gassing my car. Amazing that you can get it ANYWHERE
> in the USA that ya need it and for less than Perrier bottled WATER ! And
> were about to go to war to defend this "privlidge." Sigh. Restart the
> draft?? Yes, that's been on the radio, I don't want MY sons, or any of
yours
> to go to war for the gas thing. I'll take the train, or EV where I hafta
go
> before that. Or stay home. I won't get started on all that. But we EVers
are
> a national resourse, of stratigic importance.
>
> I hope I have rambled into answering your EV quiestions, in a
roundabout
> way. We're here, Support, camarade, and good clean EV fun. I amed this all
> at EV newbees to try to show EV life as it is with Lead acid batteries.
> Looks like were gunna be stuck with them awile, but have my hopes on
> EVercells or some new breakthrough battery.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Johanna and Stan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:51 AM
> Subject: Charging questions
>
>
> > If you've only driven a few miles, how long can you let the batteries
sit
> > before charging?
> > Our Trojan flooded lead acid batteries can be drawn down to 80%. If we
> only
> > draw them down to 95 or 90% and then charge them, does that constitute a
> > charging cycle?
> > Would it be better to keep drawing the batteries down the following day
> and
> > then charge them or should they be charged every day the car is driven?
> >
> > Johanna and Stan Soliday
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This kind of rumour making and big lie make me want to use it to the
advantage of the EV cause. How about "Plug in to the future. Electric cars
are the future." or "Plug it in, Plug it in." oops that has already been
used. HMMMMMMM....Anybody have a bumper sticker made up? Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:01 AM
Subject: electric breadbasket
> Saw today (in Tuesday's San Francisco Chronicle) a full page ad
> from GM, announcing that they will be using hybrid technology in
> several models this year. A couple of trucks, like the Tahoe,
> come to mind. But right at the start of the dialog, they gotta
> nail electrics, just like Toyota and Honda do with their "don't
> have to plug it in" phrase. If I recall correctly, the starting
> phrase was something to the effect of "Unlike electric
> breadbaskets...". So here is a third automaker now bashing
> electrics in their ads. Gimme a break! One of the biggest
> reasons I want to plug it in is to get away from the infernal
> fossil fuel infrastructure that gives them the chance to say "and
> a motor that never needs plugged in". I wonder how many people
> buy that as being an advantage.
>
> And I'm walking away from it... I'll never buy/lease a vehicle
> from any of these manufacturers, until they lay it off and
> produce a vehicle I want, then wait ten years for good measure.
> If they had had the EV1 or other EV out there ten years ago, when
> I was looking, made it available to everyday people such as
> regular apt renters, and compatible with apt charging
> possibilities (ie. no big hulking on-the-wall charging box in an
> apt carport - yeah, come on...), I might have gone for an OEM
> vehicle. But it never happened. Built a conversion, and am
> tooling down the road that way. Gets the local around-town job
> done, and I have learned a lot. I'd still be waiting for GM,
> Ford, Toyota, Honda, and all the rest. Probably would've given
> up and gone on to something else...
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, did you actually write anything new in that message? As far as I
could tell, the entire thing was a quote from the previous message with no
new text added.
At 03:42 PM 1/6/2003 -0500, Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Charging questions an' Thoughts
> Hi Johanna an' Stan;
>
> I have found that a few miles, they don't care,re charge in a
> reasonable time again, same day, or so, or overnite.
>
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a possibility, I don't think "kit cars" would have to meet safety
standards,air bags and crash, do's anybody know for sure?
From: "Tim Clevenger"
>
> Hmm.. Wouldn't an individual be able to purchase them and assemble them
as
> "kit cars"? If it meets the standards for lights, horn, mirrors, etc.,
> can't they be registered as homebuilt?
>
> Tim
>
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately I think what often happens in an unexpected emergency
situation is that the driver just slams on the brakes and hopes for the
best. People have to be trained to react properly in emergencies and that
training is very lacking in our driver education.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Adam Kuehn
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:15 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT Vehicle safety: Bigger isn't better
> Unfortunately, Victor, maneuverability and center of gravity are
> still major safety issues. I'm sure if the whole world drove
> perfectly, than you'd have a chance at being theoretically correct
> and on average SUVs would be safer than some other types of vehicles.
> But the unexpected can and does happen, whether as a result of
> pedestrians, other drivers, poor weather conditions, natural hazards
> (animals or falling rocks, e.g.), or even an otherwise careful driver
> simply not having had enough sleep the night before.
>
> When those unexpected things happen, the driver with the biggest
> advantage will be the one who can maneuver quickly and safely out of
> harm's way, avoiding an accident entirely. That does not describe
> the SUV, which has poor handling and in an extreme situation is 100%
> more likely to roll. Even the best driver may have only a
> distasteful choice: Do I hit the pedestrian that just entered
> traffic without looking, or do I slam the wheel over, try to miss
> him, and risk the vehicle rolling? You have 0.1 seconds to decide.
> Most drivers will (hopefully) opt for the latter, and SUV drivers
> will be at a significant disadvantage if they do.
>
> Having said all that, this is really just theoretical speculation
> without a trace of data to back it up. The study that prompted this
> thread actually contained some data, and while you certainly may
> dispute the validity of the study, it certainly provides at least
> *some* evidence that SUVs are in fact less safe than other vehicle
> types.
>
> One thing that science is particularly good at is proving that common
> sense may be absolutely dead wrong. The earth really *does* go
> around the sun, you know.
>
> --
>
> -Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: gimme a brake ...
> On 8 Jan 2003 at 11:29, Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Do I really want to run 13's in back an' 14's in
> > front.
>
> No, no, you put the 14" wheels in the back and the 13" in front. Then you
> can go forever without charging because the car is always going downhill.
> (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
>
> Hi Dave;
Yeah, and with my new Inverter, can charge while drivin' to Plug the
variac into the inverter and charge away , all that leftover power I could
sell back to the Electric Co. <g>!
Bob
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have some 8V Trojan battery's that have a "straight solid snap in cap" and
there leaking acid, should I get the same kind of replacement caps or has
anybody found something better, I haven't checked with the battery dealer
yet I thought I would ask here first.
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(ZAP's 3x performance batt forward-looking
statements)-long, comments added
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: EVLN(ZAP's 3x performance batt forward-looking
statements)-long
>
>
> > sounds to good to be true (hope it is true ) . They don't give a lot of
> > details "new technology"
> > dose not tell me much. If I came up with a battery like that I wouldn't
> be
> > doing anything but selling them and let others make the cars. What if
the
> > battery cost 100 times what they do now .at 10 times the price of golf
> cart
> > I'd probable use 1/2 as many as 30 to 60 miles is really all I need and
> that
> > would give me 90 miles . I guess what bug's me about any talk of better
> > batters is 1 it never happens 2 it seem to always say what we have now
is
> > not good enough. What if we never took the lead out of gas or paint
> because
> > it didn't stop all pollution. I may dream of better batteries in my
sleep
> > but when awake I only believe in what we have which to me looks like it
> > works fine.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- > SEBASTOPOL, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan.
> 6,
> > > 2003--Electronic transportation developer ZAP -
> > > today announced plans to unveil a new technology that
> > > appears to triple the performance of today's battery-powered
> > > vehicles.
>
> > > Hi EVerybody;
>
> Not holding my breath. Like the Misouri Tags say ;" Show Me State"
I'm
> in a show me state in CT. Having been in an' out of this EV thing over 35
> years I have seen SO many "Three times the Range" stuff come an go.
Remember
> Bob Aronson's Tri polar batteries? I'm still waiting for a set. He got
> impressive range in a Renault with TWO THOUSAND lbs of batteries aboard, a
> 4200 lb car! I thought 1400 in a Rabbit was a bit much, It IS! I hope ZAP
> can pull this off, it's what we need, double the range would be as gift to
> mankind. But battery managment will go along way along these lines,
getting
> more out of existing technology. Did Zap make a deal with Rich Rudman? For
a
> PFC charging deal? Yur EV is only as good as it's charger.
>
> > > ZAP also expects to unveil a new ZAP brand of electronic car
> > > that would utilize the new charge technology during Las
> > > Vegas' annual Consumer Electronics Show (CES), January 9-13,
> > > which hosts 100,000 annual attendees from 100 countries.
> > >
> GO ZAP! Maybe a rebadged THINK? I hope so, car was too good to die!
>
> > > Lead-acid batteries have been the conventional power source
> > > in electric vehicles since the 1800s, but ZAP says the
> > > technology unveiled today could offer over three times the
> > > performance, meaning it could improve the range of ZAP's
> > > electronic cars from 60 miles with today's lead-acid
> > > batteries to more than 200 miles using the new technology.
> > >
> I'd be happy with 120 miles, if it WORKS!
>
> > > ZAP CEO Steve Schneider calls the new technology unveiled
> > > today the "Holy Grail" for this industry, saying that
> > > billions of dollars have been spent in recent years by
> > > government and industry to find ways of reducing automotive
> > > emissions by developing new battery technologies. However,
> > > many experts conclude that battery-powered transportation
> > > will never offer the convenience of conventional internal
> > > combustion vehicles. Others favor fuel-cell technology,
> > > although there has not been a commercial fuel cell available
> > > to date.
> > >
> But it COULD, we know that!Battery power, we drive our talk here!
>
> > > Research shows that electronic cars using off-the-shelf
> > > technology produce 90 percent less emissions, even counting
> > > the emissions from power plants. Millions of electronic cars
> > > could be recharged during nighttime hours using surplus
> > > off-peak electricity. Electronic transport can also take
> > > advantage of renewable energy, like solar, wind, and
> > > hydroelectric energy.
> > >
> > > "I have personally experienced the performance of this new
> > > technology and look forward to sharing it with our
> > > customers," said Schneider. "We expect third-party testing
> > > to confirm the energy capabilities shortly. But to help
> > > illustrate the performance, we believe this technology will
> > > enable you to drive your brand new ZAP car from San
> > > Francisco to Los Angeles with only a one-hour stop to
> > > recharge and have lunch."
> > >
> Hmmm? NY Boston? Stop for lunch in CT? But ya should take the Acela,
> THAT'S electric, too.Faster. Shameless plug for Amtrak, I do work
there.But
> at 120 bux,OW it's too pricy for common people.
>
> > > ZAP compared the characteristics of the new technology with
> > > today's lead-acid batteries, saying the new technology more
> > > than triples the performance (See Table 1 below).
> > >
> Optimas, with PFC charging technology?
>
> > > Schneider was named CEO of ZAP in October following the
> > > company's merger with two automotive marketing companies.
> > > Five years ago Schneider founded his company Voltage
> > > Vehicles to establish a distribution network for electronic
> > > transport through the independent auto dealer network and
> > > entrepreneurs who open their own ZAP Outlets. His dealership
> > > in Fulton, California is a model of this retail strategy and
> > > Schneider says he is showing at CES to find partners
> > > interested in expanding distribution. Under the merger,
> > > Voltage Vehicles is a wholly owned subsidiary of ZAP.
> > >
> Hey Steve, need an outlet(Dealer) In CT?Got plenty of outlets 120/240!
>
> > > Publicly owned ZAP was founded in 1994 and is recognized as
> > > a world leader in creating a market for electronic
> > > transport. The Company has delivered vehicles to thousands
> > > of customers all over the world. ZAP stands for Zero Air
> > > Pollution. For more information, go to
> > > http://www.zapworld.com or call 800-251-4555.
> > > -0-
> > > Table 1 -- Battery Characteristics
> > > Range Energy (Whr/kl) Power (W/kg) Cycles
> > > Lead-acid 60 miles 35 150 500
> > > ZAP Technology 240 miles 200 400 1000
> > >
> > > Forward-looking statements in this release are made pursuant
> > > to the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities
> > > Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Investors are cautioned that
> > > such forward-looking statements involve risks and
> > > uncertainties, including, without limitation, continued
> > > acceptance of the Company's products, increased levels of
> > > competition for the Company, new products and technological
> > > changes, the Company's dependence upon third-party
> > > suppliers, intellectual property rights, and other risks
> > > detailed from time to time in the Company's periodic reports
> > > filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
>
> Yada Yada Yada!
>
> I'm all ears, as well as EVerybody else on here.
>
> Bob......plugging along on Lead Acid, still.
> > > Contact: ZAP Alex Campbell, 707/824-4150 ext. 241
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.zapworld.com Source: ZAP
> > > [ http://zapworld.com/ ]
> > >
> > > ===
> > >
> > > http://www.zapworld.com/news/ces010203.htm
> > > ZAP to Unveil Electronic Cars at CES
> > >
> > > SEBASTOPOL, Calif. (January 2, 2002) ? ZAP the Northern
> > > California pioneer in electric bicycles and scooters, will
> > > unveil a new ZAP brand of electronic automobile January 9 at
> > > the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas, the
> > > world?s largest consumer technologies event with more than
> > > 100,000 annual attendees from over 100 countries.
> > >
> > > ZAP says it will also be unveiling a new technology that
> > > appears to triple the performance of battery-powered
> > > automobiles.
> > >
> > > Voltage Vehicles, a subsidiary of ZAP, has signed an
> > > exclusive agreement with a European-based group of companies
> > > involved in the design and manufacturing of electric
> > > automobiles. The group has started production on several
> > > different types of light electric utility vehicles for urban
> > > transportation and commercial use. A representative from the
> > > European group, Riccardo Coles, says they are working with
> > > ZAP to launch their initial sales in North America.
> > >
> > > We feel the timing for electric cars is now,? said Coles.
> > > ?There has never been more of a need throughout the world
> > > for clean transportation technologies. According to air
> > > quality studies, pure electrics are much more efficient and
> > > produce much less pollution than other technologies,
> > > including the new hybrids. We looked throughout the world
> > > for the best way to launch our new cars and decided that the
> > > USA is the right place and ZAP is the right company. We
> > > believe that ZAP has a recognizable brand in this industry
> > > and the right distribution strategy.?
> > >
> > > Coles added that the group of companies he represents is
> > > forming a new car company that will focus on electronic
> > > propulsion technologies. All of the companies, says Coles,
> > > have experience in making traditional automobiles. One of
> > > them, Studio Linia 2 of Torino, Italy, has designed some of
> > > the most famous brands of Italian automobiles.
> > >
> > > Through its subsidiary Voltage Vehicles, ZAP is working to
> > > establish a distribution network for its electronic
> > > transport in the independent auto dealer market as well as
> > > ZAP Outlets for entrepreneurs. Voltage Vehicles has licensed
> > > for the distribution of vehicles from a number of different
> > > vehicle manufacturers.
> > >
> > > The first car available under the venture is a 25 MPH
> > > neighborhood electric car. The venture also includes
> > > freeway-capable cars, vans, pickups, and
> > > <http://www.zapworld.com/news/images/babyluv.jpg> commercial
> > > vehicles. ZAP?s new neighborhood car is a compact 2-door
> > > with climate controls and all the equipment and features of
> > > conventional automobiles. The car utilizes several
> > > innovations in electronic propulsion design and engineering.
> > > For example, the instrumentation for the car can be accessed
> > > via a control pad on the steering wheel.
> > >
> > > ZAP?s announcement today includes plans for a new commercial
> > > vehicle that can be built in different configurations for
> > > use in construction, agriculture and excavation. One of the
> > > designs includes a backhoe and loader and Company officials
> > > say the new electric excavator offers a new experience
> > > compared to internal-combustion.
> > >
> > > Eight hours on a quiet pollution-free backhoe with no engine
> > > vibration is like relaxing or playing an arcade game, not
> > > like work,? said ZAP CEO Steve Schneider. ?Electric drive
> > > technology is almost silent so it can eliminate noise
> > > restrictions and extend working hours to around-the-clock
> > > production. Whether in suburban areas or high density city
> > > locations, contractors can meet time sensitive deadlines
> > > without noise regulation.?
> > >
> > > For purchasing information, call 800-251-4555 or visit
> > > http://www.zapworld.com.
> > >
> > > Forward-looking statements in this release are made pursuant
> > > to the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities
> > > Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Investors are cautioned that
> > > such forward-looking statements involve risks and
> > > uncertainties, including, without limitation, continued
> > > acceptance of the Company's products, increased levels of
> > > competition for the Company, new products and technological
> > > changes, the Company's dependence upon third-party
> > > suppliers, intellectual property rights, and other risks
> > > detailed from time to time in the Company's periodic reports
> > > filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
> > >
> > > ===
> > >
> > > http://www.zapworld.com/news/maces.htm
> > > Electronic Transport ZAP!s CES
> > > Technology Expo Jan. 9 in Las Vegas
> > >
> > > WHEN
> > > January 9 - 12, 2003
> > >
> > > WHERE
> > > CES - International Consumer Electronics Show, Las Vegas,
> > > Nevada, 1000 annual attendees from 100 countries
> > > (www.cesweb.org)
> > >
> > > ZAP Electronic Transport Pavilion, Booth No. 31277, South
> > > Hall Las Vegas Convention Center, also selected for lobby
> > > exhibition.
> > >
> > > WHAT
> > > New line of ZAP electronic cars, including
> > > freeway-capable, commercial and low-speed cars.
> > >
> > > New ZAP technology that triples performance of electronic
> > > transport.
> > >
> > > New products (electric bikes, scooters, water scooters and
> > > more).
> > >
> > > WHO
> > > Steven M. Schneider, Chief Executive Officer, ZAP, 20-year
> > > veteran of automotive sales and marketing, recently named
> > > CEO
> > >
> > > ZAP (www.zapworld.com), a worldwide leader in electronic
> > > transport, helped pioneer the market for electric bicycles
> > > and scooters
> > >
> > > WHY
> > > Electronic transport is the best way to power our daily
> > > transportation.
> > >
> > > ZAP is one of the only publicly owned companies in the
> > > world focused primarily on electronic transport
> > > technologies.
> > >
> > > ZAP (Zero Air Pollution), a market leader for electronic
> > > bicycles and scooters, is expanding to electronic
> > > automobiles
> > >
> > > INFO
> > > For further information, contact:
> > > Alex Campbell, ZAP, (707) 824-4150 x 241 email:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit www.zapworld.com
> > > Forward-looking statements in this release are made pursuant
> > > to the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities
> > > Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Investors are cautioned that
> > > such forward-looking statements involve risks and
> > > uncertainties, including, without limitation, continued
> > > acceptance of the Company's products, increased levels of
> > > competition for the Company, new products and technological
> > > changes, the Company's dependence upon third-party
> > > suppliers, intellectual property rights, and other risks
> > > detailed from time to time in the Company's periodic reports
> > > filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
> > > -
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > ' ____
> > > ~/__|o\__
> > > '@----- @'---(=
> > > . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> > > . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> > > . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> > > =====
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
