EV Digest 2521
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Thunder-Sky LiIon purchase
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: SVR-14
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Inverter an' Stuff WAS basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: SVR-14
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Electric motor jackshaft to Shimano cog
by Grant Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Bombardier Help Needed
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Adaptor
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) OT: Dumpster diving
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OT: Driver training
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) My Sparrow Being Hit by Prius (1st. Hybrid & Electric Accident?)
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Bringing my pack back in balance
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: electric breadbasket/new catch phrase.
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: SVR-14
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT Vehicle safety: Bigger isn't better
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Bringing my pack back in balance
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Charging questions
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: electric breadbasket/new catch phrase.
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Thunder-Sky LiIon purchase
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Bringing my pack back in balance
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Trojan battery caps
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Bringing my pack back in balance
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) For sale: 24 mk2 loaded regs + sound fx board
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Zivan NG3 - Transistor Lookup
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:21 PM 10/8/2002 -0700, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I'm talking to Thunder sky and they seem to be interested having
me (Metric Mind) one of those supplying batteries un the US.
It's been quite a while. Did you ever get the rest of the information you
needed?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have used 2 sets of 20 hawker (240 volts) 16amp/hr in by vw pickup mostly for
racing. I plan on going to 26 amp/hr for next season. Fast but
short range(9 miles max) with the 16 amp/hrs. I also have 6 svr-14 but have
not but any miles on them. Even though they are called svr-14 they are more
like a 11 amp/hr bat.
Robert Salem
81 vw pickup 240volts, dcp1200, kostov
Quoting GordonNiessen:
> Has anyone looked at the SVR-14 that EVParts.com has listed? It is a
> SLA
> that is being classed as a competition battery. Just wondering if it
> would
> hold up for general EV use.
>
> Does anyone know of a better battery in the 10-15 Ah range?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi EVerybody;
Along these lines I just bought a ColemanPowermate 2000 watt4000 surge
inverter, modified sine wave from Harbor Freight for 200 bux, so I could put
it aboard my EV for lavish amounts of AC 120 volts aboard, to run tools an'
stuff. Or aboard my old bus camper, a small refrigerator, to get away from
the complexities of a gas, electric one with it's high price. Maybe run a
bunch of T 105's for lottsa DC power for lights and whatnot aboard. No
generator, but a truck size DC gen on the engine. Charger when parked and
plugged in. Another duty for this thing would be a TV VCR to take and show
Woodburn tapes at car shows. To show clueless Easterners a real fast EV. I
can think of a bunch of uses for this impressive gadget. It looks like a
Curtis on steeroids, a foot long by 9" wide, 3.5" thick, massive DC side
lugs for the Plus an" Neg, fans,and of course a sticker softly saying " Made
In China" Woulda been nicer if it sed" Made in USA Bridgeport CT" a place
that could use an economic boost. But we do make Pratt an' Whitney Jet
engines in Hartford which the Chinese have fallen in line to buy, recently,
at over a million a pop, or a buncha inverters worth.You see them
EVerywhere" Thrust you can Trust" on the P and W bumperstickers in these
here parts.Also apply that to DC powered EV's and trains, in the AC age upon
us at the RR.
Pretty depressing news from the Auto Shows, EV's pushed back into the
dustbin of history, as quick as possable. Destroy and hide them, lest they
catch on. Alota EV-1 and Think owners voices silenced, as the cars are
reeled in off leases. Short of a catistropic fuel event. NO gas or 10 bux a
gallon, we arent gunna see much in Automotive EV's anytime soon. Ball's in
our court. Getting some rolling stock on the road. EVen if we hafta run
Chinese Batteries to do it. I KNOW Evercells arent made in Hingham , MA, but
that's OK with me. Get them here and out there, and maybe some manufacturer
would make them HERE, closer to the demand. Batteries must be expensive to
ship?? A few fuel shortages could work wonders here, clean up our air. Hmmm.
Canada signed the Kieoto Thing. Bravo Canada! Thank you for showing the way,
maybe WE could be shamed into it, while there is still some air left to
breathe?
IMHO
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
> > I didn't realize it would be that much. But if you look here:
> >
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/LLCategoryDisplayView?
storeId=6970&langId=-1&catalogId=4006970&PHOTOS=on&TEST=Y&productId=726075&c
ategoryId=92
> >
> > $600: 3kW with 6kW surge
> > $500: 1.75kW with 3kW surge
> > $350: 1.5kW with 3kW surge
>
> Hmm, those are good prices, now if only you didn't have to wait 30 or
> more days for it to ship...
>
> Still for $350 you could buy a commercially made battery powered mower
> that was lighter and probably works better.
> Heck for $500 you can buy one of those robotic lawn mowers and let it
> take care of the lawn.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 15 barely used svr15s,twenty dollars ea.You can contact me off list
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi. I'm building an electric bicycle, and I'm stumped
about where to find a specific part:
I'm looking for a hub that will go on a 1/2, 5/8, or
3/4 inch electric motor jackshaft that will hold an
individual Shimano sprocket from a Shimano sprocket
cassette.
Does anybody know where I can get such a part? Or can
anyone suggest a solution that will allow me to use a
Shimano cog with an electric motor (obviously I want
to use a bicycle chain, not a #30 chain for which
there are jackshaft gears available)?
I'm assuming this has been done many times before so
I'm hoping there is an easy solution.
Thanks in advance,
grant-
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--- Begin Message ---
We have a customer who needs a wiring diagram and battery hookup info for a
Bombardier. If you can help, contact me off list.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I currently run my AC mower with up to 350 feet of extension cord with no
problems. There is a short learning curve as far as cutting patterns to get
the most efficient use of cord, but not all that hard to do. I plan to
hard-wire some more 10 ga. power points throughout the property to reduce
the use of the extension cords, being that they are a rather light gauge of
wire (the first 100' is a 12 ga. homemade cable and quite heavy, but the
rest are generic).
The mower only has a 19" cut as opposed to my gasser with a 21" cut and I'm
cutting over 1/2 an acre. However even with the inconvenience of the cord
and the smaller cutting path, I prefer to mow with the electric, mainly
because I can still breathe afterwards. No, really, I'm not kidding. After
cutting the entire yard with my ICE I am ready for a nap, I stink, and I'm
overheated. None of these seem to occur when I mow with the electric.
Anyway, I think Jay was asking about the effects of ac versus dc on a
universal motor, and not how convert his AC mower to DC.
Oh BTW! that was all last year, I now own an Elec-Trak I-5. My mowing
procedures will change this year.
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:03 PM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: basic and OT; DC voltage vs universal AC motor
>
>
> > I didn't realize it would be that much. But if you look here:
> >
> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/LLCatego
> ryDisplayView?storeId=6970&langId=-1&catalogId=4006970&PHOTOS=
> on&TEST=Y&productId=726075&categoryId=92
> >
> > $600: 3kW with 6kW surge
> > $500: 1.75kW with 3kW surge
> > $350: 1.5kW with 3kW surge
>
> Hmm, those are good prices, now if only you didn't have to wait 30 or
> more days for it to ship...
>
> Still for $350 you could buy a commercially made battery powered mower
> that was lighter and probably works better.
> Heck for $500 you can buy one of those robotic lawn mowers and let it
> take care of the lawn.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to get an adaptor plate to connect a Kostov to a Porsche 911
transmission. My understanding is that a VW bug to Advanced DC motor
adaptor is supposed to work (please correct me if that's wrong!).
I also have read the "magic number" (flywheel face to motor flange
distance) is critical. Is this a standard number for VW and Porsche,
or will I need to measure it for my particular donor vehicle?
I realize I'll have to make a custom mount for the other end of the
motor -- luckily looks like I can bolt or weld something to the stock
Porsche rear motor mount.
If someone has an old adaptor laying around they'd like to sell for a
good price please email me. I'd also appreciate any recommendations
on adaptor vendors you've had good luck with.
Thanks!
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I am not recommending it, nor even admitting that I may have done it.
Reccommend all you want! Dumpster diving is NOT illegal, and in fact is
often used by law enforcement types when trying to find out what a criminal
is up to without getting a warrent.
At least as recently as 2001, according to The Art Of Deception, dumpster
diving was legal in all 50 states.
As long as you don't have to trespass on locked private property, dumpster
diving is 100% legal. Many times, if you're dumpster diving for devices
rather than corperate secrets, employees will be happy to help you dive by
leaving what you want in a neat little pile next to the dumpster - no one
likes to see equipment that someone thinks is usefull to them go to waste.
Back in my Epoch days, I used to dumpster-dive entire computer systems..
they'd throw out perfectly working pentiums and monitors, just because the
cases were cracked or the hard drives weren't big enough or the computers
were obsolete!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The amusing thing is that these days, we have good enough computers that
drivers-ed could cover every conceivable situation in a simulator - if
drivers-ed classrooms had 30 pcs with force feedback wheels and pedals
($1200 each of off-the-shelf stuff) and some software that accurately
simulated the car physics (like viper racing) and the complexity of modern
traffic - maybe three-displays to cover side and front views (multihead -
add $500 or so to the cost of the system) - we could run new drivers through
everything from stops on ice to blowouts on the interstate - and have them
repeat each exercise until they could do it calmly. Then when it happened in
the real world, they'd know exactly what to do. The ultimate in electric
vehicles - this one doesn't even move ;-)
I think often the best thing to do in a emergancy is check openings on both
sides and then ajust steering to avoid obsticle while braking or
accelerating to fit opening - quite often I've avoided accidents (or at
least calls too close for comfort) by _accelerating_.
> Unfortunately I think what often happens in an unexpected emergency
> situation is that the driver just slams on the brakes and hopes for the
> best. People have to be trained to react properly in emergencies and that
> training is very lacking in our driver education.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My white Sparrow was hit by a white Prius just now!
Don't worry. It was just a parking lot incident. The
Prius driver (City of Santa Clara vehicle) bumped into
my Sparrow while we both were backing out of the
parking spaces. The driver did not see me and hit me
on the right side. Nothing serious.
There is a slight crack of the paint on the right
skirt. We exchanged phone numbers just in case and
laughed about it being the first hybrid and electric
"accident". Because he was backing out (since Pruis
normally run on electric only mode while going in
reverse), we were both on electric power.
Interesting! May be being totally silent in parking
lot is quite dangerous.
Be careful backing out from parking spaces!
Ed Ang
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello all. I could use some recommendations on exactly how to bring all
the batteries in pack back in alignment with each other. I won't tell you
how far out of balance they are, due to embarrassment on my part, but let's
just say they need help.
Sheer has volunteered to lend me a PFC-20 for a while, so I want to take
advantage of this opportunity to rebalance them, and have available quick
charging with a great charger.
Brief review of my setup:
* 120v system, ten pairs of Optima YTs (not two parallel strings)
* New 8" ADC motor (which I put in a couple of weeks ago with Roy's help,
to replace the 6.7" one, which is for sale by the way)
* Curtis 1231 500A controller, set to 400A limit
* 2700 lbs without people
* Rudman MK2 regulators on all battery pairs (no RegBus connectors, unfortunately)
* Increased insulation around the batteries, so they can be at least 70
deg F
Here's what I'm thinking to get them all back in balance:
1. Do a normal charge cycle until the first reg starts blinking
2. Turn the charger down to 135 volts at 2 amps or so, and let it go for
4 hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
3. Reset the voltage to 136 volts, at like 1.9 amps, and let it go for 4
hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
4. Repeat step 3 with increasing voltage and decreasing amps, to 14.6 volts
at about 0.2 amps.
What do you think? Will this be the best way to get them all back in alignment?
Thanks in advance for your help/advice.
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
YES! Take the survey for the bumper stickers you like best and would like
to order at EVworld. I particularly like the one that says "hybrid electric
cars cost less than cruise missles."
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:34 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: electric breadbasket/new catch phrase.
This kind of rumour making and big lie make me want to use it to the
advantage of the EV cause. How about "Plug in to the future. Electric cars
are the future." or "Plug it in, Plug it in." oops that has already been
used. HMMMMMMM....Anybody have a bumper sticker made up? Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:01 AM
Subject: electric breadbasket
> Saw today (in Tuesday's San Francisco Chronicle) a full page ad
> from GM, announcing that they will be using hybrid technology in
> several models this year. A couple of trucks, like the Tahoe,
> come to mind. But right at the start of the dialog, they gotta
> nail electrics, just like Toyota and Honda do with their "don't
> have to plug it in" phrase. If I recall correctly, the starting
> phrase was something to the effect of "Unlike electric
> breadbaskets...". So here is a third automaker now bashing
> electrics in their ads. Gimme a break! One of the biggest
> reasons I want to plug it in is to get away from the infernal
> fossil fuel infrastructure that gives them the chance to say "and
> a motor that never needs plugged in". I wonder how many people
> buy that as being an advantage.
>
> And I'm walking away from it... I'll never buy/lease a vehicle
> from any of these manufacturers, until they lay it off and
> produce a vehicle I want, then wait ten years for good measure.
> If they had had the EV1 or other EV out there ten years ago, when
> I was looking, made it available to everyday people such as
> regular apt renters, and compatible with apt charging
> possibilities (ie. no big hulking on-the-wall charging box in an
> apt carport - yeah, come on...), I might have gone for an OEM
> vehicle. But it never happened. Built a conversion, and am
> tooling down the road that way. Gets the local around-town job
> done, and I have learned a lot. I'd still be waiting for GM,
> Ford, Toyota, Honda, and all the rest. Probably would've given
> up and gone on to something else...
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon Niessen wrote:
>
> Has anyone looked at the SVR-14 that EVParts.com has listed? It is a SLA
> that is being classed as a competition battery. Just wondering if it would
> hold up for general EV use.
>
> Does anyone know of a better battery in the 10-15 Ah range?
I have draw down plots of these batteries on my Website in the down load
area. I have 16 of them.
The bolts will need periodic tightening. 800 amp in 11.5 lbs is pretty
good for street use.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly my point. If you *know* (and you should) maneuverability
of SUV is worse and unexpected happens (an car does stupid things
in front of you) - you don't slam the brakes, you have to go right
through it as your vehicle calls (just like 18 wheeler).
It's just a property of SUV you must consider (not that you
don't care what happens to the car you hit).
No different from any heavy vehicle; no one is going to stop
driving 8 ton construction trucks just because they harder to
stop than a car. They just drive them accordingly to begin with.
If you can't avoid using SUV (you sure should try in a first place)
and get in not-your-fault accident a light car could have avoid,
so be it. Again, no different from 18 wheeler they must use.
Training and adjusting your instincts for SUV driving
*required*, but very few bother. Thus statistics are worse than
could have been.
You want my totally honest opinion? People must be screened before
given right to drive SUVs on the public roads. Extra training
and tougher exam should be required too. Again, just like for
18 wheeler semis.
Just my opinion anyone is free to disagree with.
Can we taper off this topic please?
Victor
Andre Blanchard wrote:
>
> Unfortunately I think what often happens in an unexpected emergency
> situation is that the driver just slams on the brakes and hopes for the
> best. People have to be trained to react properly in emergencies and that
> training is very lacking in our driver education.
>
> Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
> Isaac Newton
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Adam Kuehn
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:15 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: OT Vehicle safety: Bigger isn't better
>
> > Unfortunately, Victor, maneuverability and center of gravity are
> > still major safety issues. I'm sure if the whole world drove
> > perfectly, than you'd have a chance at being theoretically correct
> > and on average SUVs would be safer than some other types of vehicles.
> > But the unexpected can and does happen, whether as a result of
> > pedestrians, other drivers, poor weather conditions, natural hazards
> > (animals or falling rocks, e.g.), or even an otherwise careful driver
> > simply not having had enough sleep the night before.
> >
> > When those unexpected things happen, the driver with the biggest
> > advantage will be the one who can maneuver quickly and safely out of
> > harm's way, avoiding an accident entirely. That does not describe
> > the SUV, which has poor handling and in an extreme situation is 100%
> > more likely to roll. Even the best driver may have only a
> > distasteful choice: Do I hit the pedestrian that just entered
> > traffic without looking, or do I slam the wheel over, try to miss
> > him, and risk the vehicle rolling? You have 0.1 seconds to decide.
> > Most drivers will (hopefully) opt for the latter, and SUV drivers
> > will be at a significant disadvantage if they do.
> >
> > Having said all that, this is really just theoretical speculation
> > without a trace of data to back it up. The study that prompted this
> > thread actually contained some data, and while you certainly may
> > dispute the validity of the study, it certainly provides at least
> > *some* evidence that SUVs are in fact less safe than other vehicle
> > types.
> >
> > One thing that science is particularly good at is proving that common
> > sense may be absolutely dead wrong. The earth really *does* go
> > around the sun, you know.
> >
> > --
> >
> > -Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Dodrill wrote:
>
> Hello all. I could use some recommendations on exactly how to bring all
> the batteries in pack back in alignment with each other. I won't tell you
> how far out of balance they are, due to embarrassment on my part, but let's
> just say they need help.
>
> Sheer has volunteered to lend me a PFC-20 for a while, so I want to take
> advantage of this opportunity to rebalance them, and have available quick
> charging with a great charger.
>
> Brief review of my setup:
>
> * 120v system, ten pairs of Optima YTs (not two parallel strings)
> * New 8" ADC motor (which I put in a couple of weeks ago with Roy's help,
> to replace the 6.7" one, which is for sale by the way)
> * Curtis 1231 500A controller, set to 400A limit
> * 2700 lbs without people
> * Rudman MK2 regulators on all battery pairs (no RegBus connectors, unfortunately)
> * Increased insulation around the batteries, so they can be at least 70
> deg F
>
> Here's what I'm thinking to get them all back in balance:
>
> 1. Do a normal charge cycle until the first reg starts blinking
> 2. Turn the charger down to 135 volts at 2 amps or so, and let it go for
> 4 hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
> 3. Reset the voltage to 136 volts, at like 1.9 amps, and let it go for 4
> hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
> 4. Repeat step 3 with increasing voltage and decreasing amps, to 14.6 volts
> at about 0.2 amps.
>
> What do you think? Will this be the best way to get them all back in alignment?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help/advice.
>
> Mark Dodrill
I am doing this on Goldie Right now. Set to 191 volts, and only 4.8
amps. Run until a reg goes on solid, turn amps down until reg flashes
but not solid. Walk way. The volts will come up as the other lower
batteries come up. The Hot Regs just have to take care of themselves.
And I have Reg Busses on the worst batteries... Er the ones that have
the least self discharge, but fill the fastest... AKA the one new one.
Time will tell.
Also I have the timer set to 15 minutes. I check it every 15 min. It's
most likely time for some Goldie Fix fun!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, this is the "right" way to do it. Though your algorithm would still
need numbers (how much gassing is enough, how much temperature rise is
too much, etc.). It would be great if each battery block came with a
standardized internal temp sensor. Easy to do, hard to standardize.
Without a standard, not a penny is likely to be spent adding any kind of
sensors.
Once you get inside the battery, there may be a different way to detect
gassing or impending gassing, chemically? Other than lighting a match?
Gassing rate (net?) is different than H2 concentration.
- GT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:14 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Charging questions
>
>
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > Charging is a black art. I don't think most people are
> going to put up
> > with it (what a lot of us go through trying to keep our batteries
> > running well), and it will require sophisticated idiotproof battery
> > management to make batteries work for most people.
>
> I wouldn't say it is a "black" art, but it is certainly as
> much art as science.
>
> It seems like batteries behave almost like a living thing.
> They respond well to good care, and badly to poor treatment.
> Like the family pet, you can't just lock them in a cage and
> blindly feed them identically every day. It works for a
> while, but the animal changes over time. It needs exercise,
> and attention, and gets sick once in a while for no apparent
> reason. You have to keep monitoring it, and adjusting what
> you do accordingly.
>
> This imposes limitations on any kind of automatic battery
> charging system. Most of them blindly do exactly the same
> thing on every charge cycle, no matter what. This works OK
> when everything is fine, but it works poorly at detecting and
> correcting problems. So, the problems go undetected, and get
> worse until the battery dies.
>
> For years I've thought that we need to build a fuzzy logic
> battery charger. No, fuzzy logic is not a joke; it is a
> serious scientific discipline for dealing with problems where
> you do not have sufficient data to make a perfect decision,
> but you do have enough to make a "good" one.
>
> Here's an example of a fuzzy charging algorithm:
>
> - charge with as much current as the charger can deliver until the
> battery starts to gas
> - reduce charging current to hold the gassing rate constant
> - you're done when the battery temperature starts to rise, or the
> voltage stops rising
>
> Notice that there isn't a single number in that algorithm. It
> doesn't know what the battery voltage is, or its amphour
> capacity. This means it adapts automatically to the battery.
> It still works with an old battery, or if a cell dies, or if
> the battery is hot.
>
> It *does* want to know about gassing. We usually use voltage
> as in indication of this, but that is indirect and leads to
> so many of our complications (like a need to know battery
> voltage, temperature compensation, etc.). Something like a
> pressure sensor or hydrogen gas detector would provide a more
> accurate indication.
>
> It also wants to know temperature. Again, we usually don't
> measure it, though it has a significant effect on battery chemistry.
>
> My guess is that algorithms like this would lead to more
> "foolproof" chargers. But they might be more expensive,
> because of the types of sensors used. Designers often choose
> to do what is easy, rather than what they know would work better.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -
> Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ya, pretty nauseating. The Oregon EV Assoc. had a batch of shirts made
that say, "It's Not Electric If You Can't Plug It In" ask Ralph
Merwin/Treasurer if there are any left.
- GT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:34 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: electric breadbasket/new catch phrase.
>
>
> This kind of rumour making and big lie make me want to use it
> to the advantage of the EV cause. How about "Plug in to the
> future. Electric cars are the future." or "Plug it in, Plug
> it in." oops that has already been used.
> HMMMMMMM....Anybody have a bumper sticker made up? Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:01 AM
> Subject: electric breadbasket
>
>
> > Saw today (in Tuesday's San Francisco Chronicle) a full
> page ad from
> > GM, announcing that they will be using hybrid technology in several
> > models this year. A couple of trucks, like the Tahoe, come
> to mind.
> > But right at the start of the dialog, they gotta nail
> electrics, just
> > like Toyota and Honda do with their "don't have to plug it
> in" phrase.
> > If I recall correctly, the starting phrase was something to
> the effect
> > of "Unlike electric breadbaskets...". So here is a third automaker
> > now bashing electrics in their ads. Gimme a break! One of the
> > biggest reasons I want to plug it in is to get away from
> the infernal
> > fossil fuel infrastructure that gives them the chance to say "and
> > a motor that never needs plugged in". I wonder how many people
> > buy that as being an advantage.
> >
> > And I'm walking away from it... I'll never buy/lease a
> vehicle from
> > any of these manufacturers, until they lay it off and produce a
> > vehicle I want, then wait ten years for good measure. If
> they had had
> > the EV1 or other EV out there ten years ago, when I was
> looking, made
> > it available to everyday people such as regular apt renters, and
> > compatible with apt charging possibilities (ie. no big hulking
> > on-the-wall charging box in an apt carport - yeah, come on...), I
> > might have gone for an OEM vehicle. But it never happened.
> Built a
> > conversion, and am tooling down the road that way. Gets the local
> > around-town job done, and I have learned a lot. I'd still
> be waiting
> > for GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, and all the rest. Probably would've
> > given up and gone on to something else...
> >
> > Chuck Hursch
> > Larkspur, CA
> > NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> > www.geocities.com/nbeaa http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
>
> At 01:21 PM 10/8/2002 -0700, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >I'm talking to Thunder sky and they seem to be interested having
> >me (Metric Mind) one of those supplying batteries un the US.
>
> It's been quite a while. Did you ever get the rest of the information you
> needed?
>
Some, but it's difficult to communicate with them. More importantly,
I'm trying to determine if the batteries are at least performing as
advertised. I'm not ready to answer yet, too few tests and data points.
So far I can say the cells are quite soft, sagging 1V (about 27% of
OCV) at 150A load at 100% SOC. At lower SOC it will be worse, but
then may be they have undisclosed break in period. I have only
few shallow cycles on my test cells.
This implies that low current systems (read - high voltage AC)
are the best to work with those. But, their 200 Ah cells with
3C allowable discharge current may be OK for DC systems.
I'll keep everyone posted.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Equalization of the batteries at less than the gassing voltage is done while
the regs blink.
Given that and that you want to get them back in the shortest period of
time, then what you want to do is:
1. Set the charger to Max current.
2. Wait until any reg goes on solid.
3. Back off the current until it blinks again.
4. Repeat #2 and #3 until all regs are blinking on step #3.
5. When all the regs are blinking (none on solid and none off) then you are
done.
I would check the regs every 10 minutes or so to readjust the current.
If you want to do it "hands off" (like overnight), then what you want to do
is:
1. Set the charger to Max. current.
2. Wait until any reg goes on solid.
3. Back off the current to 1.5 to 2 amps depending on the dissipation
capacity of the regs (location, heat sink size, airflow etc.)
4. When all the regs are blinking (none on solid and none off) then you are
done.
Please note that there is no voltage limit setting on the charger. There are
only current settings. The voltage limit control must be set higher than the
sum of all the reg voltages.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:19 PM
Subject: Bringing my pack back in balance
> Hello all. I could use some recommendations on exactly how to bring all
> the batteries in pack back in alignment with each other. I won't tell you
> how far out of balance they are, due to embarrassment on my part, but
let's
> just say they need help.
>
> Sheer has volunteered to lend me a PFC-20 for a while, so I want to take
> advantage of this opportunity to rebalance them, and have available quick
> charging with a great charger.
>
> Brief review of my setup:
>
> * 120v system, ten pairs of Optima YTs (not two parallel strings)
> * New 8" ADC motor (which I put in a couple of weeks ago with Roy's help,
> to replace the 6.7" one, which is for sale by the way)
> * Curtis 1231 500A controller, set to 400A limit
> * 2700 lbs without people
> * Rudman MK2 regulators on all battery pairs (no RegBus connectors,
unfortunately)
> * Increased insulation around the batteries, so they can be at least 70
> deg F
>
> Here's what I'm thinking to get them all back in balance:
>
> 1. Do a normal charge cycle until the first reg starts blinking
> 2. Turn the charger down to 135 volts at 2 amps or so, and let it go for
> 4 hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
> 3. Reset the voltage to 136 volts, at like 1.9 amps, and let it go for 4
> hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
> 4. Repeat step 3 with increasing voltage and decreasing amps, to 14.6
volts
> at about 0.2 amps.
>
> What do you think? Will this be the best way to get them all back in
alignment?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help/advice.
>
> Mark Dodrill
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard wrote:
I have some 8V Trojan battery's that have a "straight solid snap in cap" and
there leaking acid, should I get the same kind of replacement caps or has
anybody found something better, I haven't checked with the battery dealer
yet I thought I would ask here first.
Personally, I would recommend Optimas ;-) I've never seen any leakage
with mine, and they are 4 years old.
Neon
P.S. - perhaps that wasn't the answer you where looking for <G>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark wrote:
Here's what I'm thinking to get them all back in balance:
1. Do a normal charge cycle until the first reg starts blinking
2. Turn the charger down to 135 volts at 2 amps or so, and let it go for
4 hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
3. Reset the voltage to 136 volts, at like 1.9 amps, and let it go for 4
hours, or until one of the regs is on solid.
4. Repeat step 3 with increasing voltage and decreasing amps, to 14.6 volts
at about 0.2 amps.
What do you think? Will this be the best way to get them all back
in alignment?
I like number 1.
Then I would turn the current down (but not the voltage) to a level
the regs could handle (2 amps should work). I would target about 147
volts for this step.
Once you get most or all of the Optimas blinking I would raise the
voltage to 150 volts (same reg safe amp level) and continue until all
the regs are blinking. I like my Optimas to get to 15 volts each (but
not more unless equalizing) every charge. I would let them all blink
at 15 volts (150 charger volts) for an hour.
I'd turn the charger voltage back down to about 148 volts and wait
until they are all blinking. Then I'd leave them all to blink for 2
hours.
For the last step I would disconnect the regs and get yourself a "bad
boy" charger (just a bridge rectifier). I would hook this to the pack
for an hour. Since the pack is charged you should have no problem
with excess amps when you start (no need for a variac or long
extension cords). It should end at about 160 volts and about one amp,
but even if you get their in 30 minutes I'd still not go less than
one hour. If you don't get there in an hour I would add up to another
hour, but be checking each batteries voltage every 10 minutes. If you
still don't get a pack that is all above 15.6v and not over 1.5 amps
I would fall back to charging them longer per the previous step (148
volts, low amps, with regs). Say another 4 hours of it. Then try this
equalizing again.
In the future I recommend you regularly check the voltage of each
buddy pair in your pack, both after charging and after a drive. The
goal being that its better to deal with imbalance sooner rather than
later. I'm recommending some hard charging, but the Optimas will take
it. My 10 pack has been taking this kind of abuse for 4 years now. I
get involved with imbalance each spring when I take my buggy out of
storage. I don't have regs, so I get to do things like float the pack
at 13.8 volts for a week, and tolerate some batteries getting a
little over 15 volts during parts of the effort to pound them back
into a line. My old Optimas still live, and quite well. During the
driving season I give mine the equalizing treatment I gave you above
once a week.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In order to finance my antisocial hobbies, and help clean out my garage, I'm
selling some EV related items.
1) A sound effects board, expects TTL level tach in, preprogrammed with 6
samples but I'll include directions for how to reprogram. (reprogramming
requires a mk3 wedge board, available soon) Deliverable in three months,
order now and put $10 down, total price $150. 10 available right now.
(Ignore the fact that they're marked 'mk3' - some unfortunate isolation
issues make them unusable as regulators, and I want to reclaim the money I
have sunk in them). Includes very cheesy MOSFET amplifier (low-side
switched), or you can connect to a external amplifier. 8khz sample rate, 10
bit sample depth. Just the thing for making your EV sound like a hawg, or a
Jetsons car, or whatever. You supply the speaker.
2) Gently used (no corrosion or anything) Rudman mk2 loaded regulators, 24.
Pristine shape. $700/obo for the lot.
Please call 206 634 9213 or email [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you are interested in
purchasing either.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoops! The parts arrived today, but they are packaged as TO-220AB's
instead of JEDEC TO-247's. It's my fault for not doing my homework.
I ordered...
HGTP20N60B3, Newark PN:34C0609, TO-220AB package
Now I've ordered the correct replacements...
HGTG20N60B3D, Newark PN:06F6145, TO-247 package
The D version adds the hyperfast anti-parallel diode AND increases the
package size to a TO-247 like what's inside the NG3.
Still dreaming of green monster chargers,
-Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Zivan NG3 - Transistor Lookup
Dave Stensland wrote:
>
> Newark Electronics sells this exact replacement part for only $2.37
> each. I ordered 10 so I can replace those inside my NG3 and still
have
> spares.
>
> In case you missed it, one of the masterminds behind Manzanita Micro's
> incredible PFC chargers just assisted in the repair of my tired old
> Zivan... a praiseworthy action that reflects well upon Joe Smalley and
> the open nature of the EV Discussion List.
>
> I am grateful and apt to purchase a shiny new PFC-20 as soon as my
> finances permit.
>
> Cheers!
> -Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On
> Behalf Of Joe Smalley
> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:11 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Zivan NG3 - Transistor Lookup
>
> Fairchild bought Harris a while back.
>
> You should be able to find all the Harris parts on the Fairchild
> website.
>
> Your part should be a HGTG20N60B3. The D (for diode) may not be
> necessary.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Zivan NG3 - Transistor Lookup
>
> > > Case appears to be a 340G-01 or TO-3PBL
> >
> > > 1st line... bold italicized "H" followed by H931
> > > 2nd line... G20N60B3
> > > 3rd line... AT9
> >
> > In both the ex Sparrow NG3s I've examined, one a 110vac the other
> 230vac,
> > they used (as I recall, the charger is at work);
> >
> > IRG4PC40UD
> > International Rectifier IGBT 600volt 40amp. Ultrafast with an
integral
> diode
> >
> >
> > Ah Ha! Just found your original part;
> >
> > HGTG20N60B3D is the Fairchild equivilent.
> >
> >
> > Paul Compton
> > BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
> > www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> >
That turn of good will reminds me to get Mitch Oate's NG5 shipped off to
Paul Compton.... I will assist EVers in anyway I can.... Since I are
one...
I also see that yesterday I was doing production, and I didn't really
need to help in the IGBT search.
These HGTG Harris parts, Joe and I beat the tar out of them in
the
early days of the PFC20 design. They did not make the grade in the
To-247 and To-264 package. We could not keep them under 170 Deg f even
at 1300 watts of charge power. These same devices in the Sot227 package
did OK.... but not as good at the APT parts. We can keep the whole PFC20
under 170 Deg F, at over 5000 watts. Packaging and subtle drive tricks
can make some serious differences in maximum power levels. This is
something Joe and I are hanging our hats on right now.
Joe's here.... R&D time.....
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
