EV Digest 2534
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Single cell regulators
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Compression Connectors?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: EVLN(Zero EV fees in Dallas EPA clean-air plan funding)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Compression Connectors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Evercel M100 vs MB100
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Evercel M100 vs MB100
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Evercel M100 vs MB100
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V....
by Grant Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Realtime Lowbatt
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus (long and technical reply)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New EV Project, bike range
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery heaters
by John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V....
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Single cell regulators
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Evercel M100 vs MB100
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Evercel M100 vs MB100
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New EV Project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Battery heaters
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Single cell regulators
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V....
by "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New EV Project
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery heaters
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) newbie EV questions
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Battery heaters
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> Since I'm working with AGM batteries that have external interconnects,
> and since there's only 24v worth of them, what options are available
> for regulating them on a cell-by-cell basis?
Since your regulating voltage is so low (2.4v to 2.5v), heat generation,
even at 2 amps bypass current isn't such a problem. The simplest
solution is probably just 4 ordinary diodes in series. Their current is
negligible at 2.2v (0.55v per diode) and high at 2.5v (0.625v per
diode). Use 1N4001 for up to 1 amp bypass, 1N5401 for 3 amps, etc.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With all this crimp/solder crimp+solder talk I was looking at ordering some
connectors and saw some compressions connectors for 2/0 from the makers of
magnalugs. You would just use two wrenches to tighten/compress the lug to
the wire. Has anyone used these? Could they work in very high current? The
yeah sure I get from the retailer doesn't reassure me. It seems to easy of
an answer.
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Jan 2003 at 1:21, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> He is backing, among other things, a $5 environmental impact
> fee on every internal-combustion engine over 50 horsepower.
Good idea, but flawed. Often ICEs under 5hp contribute more pollution than
those over 50hp.
> Environmentalists ...
> proposal would add an average of $11 to the cost of
> registering a car in Texas, starting with 2004 models.
>
> New fees would range from zero for pollution-free vehicles
> such as electric ones, to $22 for gas-hungry trucks and
> SUVs ...
Great! Now, just where might one buy an EV to take advantage of this zero
fee? Apparently not from GM, Ford, Toyota or Honda.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> With all this crimp/solder crimp+solder talk I was looking at
> ordering some connectors and saw some compressions connectors
> for 2/0 from the makers of magnalugs. You would just use two
> wrenches to tighten/compress the lug to the wire. Has anyone
> used these? Could they work in very high current?
Yes, they work. The main problem with any type of screw pressure type
terminal is that water and acid can get into them over time and cause
corrosion and bad connections. They work best with solid wire, or wire
with a few large strands; not with welding cable or other wire with lots
of very small strands.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a link to an article on the Seattle Time web site about the Tango.
Pretty good coverage, for a short article, mostly on track. There are
a couple of interesting details from Rick Woodbury about the Tango, so I
suggest reading it.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134614916_electric14.html
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:12 AM 1/13/2003 -0800, Lee Hart stated:
> I'm testing running the self-regulating heat cable off the pack
> voltage (156V nominal). It seems to draw about .8 A at 165V after
> it comes up to temp. That's 130 watts of heat, about 65 per
> compartment. The battery compartment sides/bottom are pretty well
> insulated, so I think that should be enough heat.
That would be low around here (Minnesota) but might be enough for you.
> After 3 hours the batteries were only up to 66 deg (from 45
> ambient). We'll see what they are like in the morning.
The batteries seem to have stabilized at around 85 deg F. Since that is
still a bit lower than I wanted, I'm going to look into using 240 VAC to
drive the heat cable for a higher temp. (definitely test on the bench first!)
What I could use is a 240 VAC lamp dimmer that can handle a few amps, or a
small variac.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just talking to the Evercel sales guy, and he mentioned that while
the MB100's are monobloc construction, the M100's are actually 7 cells in a
case, and it would be possible to disassemble one into individual cells!
Now that could be interesting....
Anyone have an M100 to look at really close?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just talking to the Evercel sales guy, and he mentioned that
while the MB100's are monobloc construction, the M100's are actually
7 cells in a case, and it would be possible to disassemble one into
individual cells!
Now that could be interesting....
Anyone have an M100 to look at really close?
Hi John,
I took pictures of one. Here's a good one:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/M100pic.JPG
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:28 AM 1/14/2003 -0800, Otmar stated:
I was just talking to the Evercel sales guy, and he mentioned that while
the MB100's are monobloc construction, the M100's are actually 7 cells in
a case, and it would be possible to disassemble one into individual cells!
Now that could be interesting....
Anyone have an M100 to look at really close?
Hi John,
I took pictures of one. Here's a good one:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/M100pic.JPG
So each cell would be about 2.05" x 6.75" (guessing here), and 8.67" tall.
Just how are they held in the M100 case? Hmm, may need to look into this
more carefully.
An Optima YT is 10" x 6.8". So I might be able to barely fit 5 NiZi cells
in the space of 1 Optima.
That comes out to about 111 V - kinda low, but 86 AH - kind nice. It would
be the equivalent of 9 M100's (+ 2 cells).
It's is a bit over available height, 8.67" tall vs 8.5" space - but the
cells may only be 8.5" tall. Then it's just trying to figure out how to
wedge cables in....
Still, dropping the voltage that far down may not be useable. Especially
since I believe the NiZi tends to sag rather heavily.
Also a damn lot of work.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm building an electric bicycle that will have two
12V batteries wired in series to produce 24V. The
plans I have state:
"You may charge the batteries in series, requiring a
24 volt charger, or in parallel, requiring a 12 volt
charger. What is critical, is to make sure the
charging voltage does not exceed 14.0 volts."
So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
need a 24V charger.
Thanks for the clarification!
grant-
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Whoops. I forgot a line...
>
> Step 8 in the equalization process is to put switch 6 back to its normal
> position (open). It is a common mistake and you MUST put it back to get the
> regs to work normally again.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -
> >
> > Do you have the undervoltage remote optocoupler hooked up to a "lift"
> light
> > to know when the undervolt threshold is tripped on any battery?
> >
>
Umm Joe... this feature is not even installed yet...... NObody has asked for
it. Before you assume it's available , you might want to contact production,
sales, and management.... aka ME!!
Also, even Goldie doesn't have this yet.
This can be installed on any PFC charger, but there will be about 4 extra wires
that have to be routed out of the charger....there are no holes for connectors
or wire bundles....Yet...
Who wants this Real time Low batt function????
>
> > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Much snippage.... and some new data.
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
Phone calls.... if I don't get a complete manual written, then I expect a LOT of
support phone calls.
My problem, my burden... sigh.
>
> The trim pot was set for 117 volts. This reading is mysterious -
> the blue timer light was on, but not the yellow voltage limit
> light. This is the only time that has happened - other times
> when the voltage light comes on the e-meter reads 117 volts and
> drops back only when the blue timer light comes on steady.
> The next time I charged, the voltage had fallen back to 106 volts
> a couple of hours after the blue light came on. From this I
> conclude that the charger stops charging when the timer light
> comes on steady. Is this correct?
> Blue timer light on NO yellow, is REG hot inducation. You Regbuss is doing it's
> thing. You will notice that once the regs cool the blue goes out, and the yellow
> may come back on fast as you have 75 amps of charger current available...
>
> >
> >>A couple of hours later, the blue
> >>light was on steady, meaning that the timer had done its time,
> >>but the 5 regs still had their red undervoltage leds on.
> >>Individual voltages on those batteries were
> >>13.26-13.29. No regs were green nor had I seen any flash.
> >
> >
> > Apparently the acceptance voltage set with the trim pot on the front of the
> > charger stopped the voltage rise before any regulators came up to voltage.
> > If you divide 103 by 8 batteries, the average battery voltage is only 12.8
> > volts. This is not nearly enough voltage to top them off and get the green
> > LEDs blinking.
> >
the Green LEDs come on at 14.8 on each reg. If a Red is on and NO green was seen,
then this battery never got to the trip voltage of 14.8. This is a low battery.
>
>
> That explanation works for me, but the average voltage was more
> like 13.28. I guess that the undervoltage light didn't go off
> becaue the voltage in those batteries never got high enough for
> the regs to bypass. I have not checked the undervoltage setting
> on the regs - they are at whatever the factory settings were. The
> batteries went undervoltage because I drained them too much.
>
> >
> >
> > Equalization and topping them off are two different things.
> >
>
> Thanks for the detailed explanation
>
> >
> >
> > Did you test the batteries individually before installing them in the car so
> > the best battery is paired with the worst battery therefore the sum of the
> > pairs is as consistent as possible throughout the pack?
> >
>
> Um, no... I should know how to test them ... seem to recall
> something from an old message... How about if I run a load, say
> some lights or something and watch how long they run before the
> voltage sags?
> >
>
> >>Bit of a learning curve here. I can see how us neophytes kill
> >>batteries through ignorance. I'm constantly feeling like I'm in
> >>over my head. At least I'm learning on a pack I got for free.
> >
> >
> > You haven't damaged them with the charger yet. If you don't get too
> > aggressive, it won't happen.
> >
>
> The damage comes from heavy use of the "go" pedal, as I see it.
>
> > Do you have the undervoltage remote optocoupler hooked up to a "lift" light
> > to know when the undervolt threshold is tripped on any battery?
> >
>
> Undervoltage remote optocoupler? I don't recall seeing anything
> about that. Please forgive my ignorance.
>
> >>Still, it's a heap of fun driving around in my unlicensed open
> >>car (after the second run I put the windshield on), even at -18C
> >>with a 15 km/hr headwind. The ev grin is literally frozen on my
> >>face.
> >>
> >>Mike Hoskinson
> >>Edmonton
> >>
> >>Who needs cooling fans, anyway?
> >
> >
> > People with a lot of heat in their cars when the park them in the sun.
> >
> >
> I forgot to put the smiley face after that last question..
>
> A comment about ignorance vs stupidity. I'm ignorant about the
> charger, regs and battery husbandry in general. But stupidity -
> I'll give you stupidity. I was framing a question to the list
> asking why my e-meter only shows negative current, and remains at
> 0.0 when the charger is on. Doh! I pictured the connections in
> my mind's eye: Battery negative to fuse, fuse to shunt - other
> side of shunt to controller. Charger to fuse side of shunt. Doh!
> Doh! Doh! How could I have done that? No charge juice goes
> through the shunt at all. I knew that...
>
> Mike
Ummmm a polite DUhhhhh! from the Charger Boys out here, By the way Smalley is now
sitting acouple of feet to the right of me...
Mike sorry I didn't reply, I did it's still in the out box on the 1gig in the
shop....waiting for a send. That was Friday...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the typical range you can expect from a motorcycle with standard
wind resistance and minimal battery area? 10 miles maybe at 60mph?
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: New EV Project
> Hi Lawrence and All,.
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I don't totally agree with Tom. He is right if you
> > leave it as is. But if
> > you use a full faring and I mean a full fairing
> > covering the whole bike it
> > shouldn't be hard to do it at 48v as long as the
> > hills aren't too bad and
> > you only want to go about 60mph. I have a fairing
> > that will work and only
> > needs 3hp to push it 60 mph. Lawrence Rhodes....
> Fairings are needed to do anything over 45 mph
> with any range.
> The fairing only needs to come past the driver
> and gently turning the air back toward the rear center
> then cut it off cleanly. As long as the rear is in the
> cone of the most aft body angle it will have no aero
> drag from drafting.
> Doing this and keeping forward fairing area as
> low as possible should keep problems of side gusts
> from wind or semi's low.
> I would not build one too low as being able to
> see and be seen is nessesary to not be killed on
> todays hiways. Eye level should be at least 48" high
> for safety.
> Anyone using a trailer for batts must have brakes
> on it!!!!! Motocycles are known for swapping ends and
> a trailer with weight will make it happen at a much
> lower speed without brakes on the trailer.
> Be careful of loanng someone you fairing to make
> copies. It's really easy to get the parts glued to
> each other reducing both to junk. Only allow
> experenced composite people to do it.
> Costs are fairly low at composite job shops at
> about $6-8/ lbs of part in most cases. At least have
> them make the mold from you fairing.
> jerry dycus
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently used a product for subfloor heating in my house, and was thinking
it would make a perfect battery warmer (as well as something for heating a
doghouse). http://www.warmfloor.com. I just looked at their site again it is
unfortunately under construction, but they are very helpful on the phone.
They are marketing to the construction industry, but I'm sure they'd be
intrigued by new markets. The product is a self-regulating plastic, 3/64"
thick that comes in a 12" wide roll. It's flat, not a wire. I think you
could purchase it in any length. The product I used for my floors uses 24
volts AC or DC and the specs say it self regulates power draw from
8.5watts/feet at 32�F to 5.5 watts at 104�F ambient. There is also a 12V
version for the RV industry. What intrigues me is that it has a large
surface area for heating and is NOT delicate in any way. You can staple
through the plastic, as long as you don't go through the braids at the
sides. You cut it to length with scissors. I don't recall, but I think the
maximum temperature the plastic reaches is only 85�F. Turn down the voltage
to reduce maximum temp. I have a 5 meg installation PDF file with full tech
specs if anyone is interested. It's a bit pricey though, I think around
$11/foot.
JRAB
On 1/14/03 12:03 AM, "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Refresh my memory again on this wire..... what voltage is it taking and what
> maximum temp? I'm thinking something like this stuff, underneath the nylon
> flooring of the outside doghouse, would make it a nice place for the canines
> when they are outside and the weather turns crappy.
>
> KC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery heaters
>
>
>> At 06:57 PM 1/13/2003 -0800, Paul G wrote:
>>> P.S. - John, I think you have about the best heater for the situation. I
>>> may buy some to heat my own batteries.
>>
>> I still have extra cable I'm willing to sell.
>>
>> --
>> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think they mean that you don't want to exceed 14.0 volts PER 12V BATTERY.
That's the only way it makes sense. Both 12v and 24v chargers are pretty
easy to come by. Checkout http://www.soniel.com -- you can purchase these
chargers from www.evparts.com.
Don't get too concerned about the actual voltage just yet, since it depends
on what type of battery you use--flooded lead acid, sealed lead acid, Ni-Cad,
Ni-Zn, etc.
Putting them in parallel will increase your capacity (theoretically doubling,
but it doesn't quite work out that nicely), whereas putting them in series
will double the voltage.
I'll guess others on the list could give their recommendations for which
would be the best way to go, so I'll let them do that.
Mark
>-- Original Message --
>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:51:26 -0800 (PST)
>From: Grant Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series
>for 24V....
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>I'm building an electric bicycle that will have two
>12V batteries wired in series to produce 24V. The
>plans I have state:
>
>"You may charge the batteries in series, requiring a
>24 volt charger, or in parallel, requiring a 12 volt
>charger. What is critical, is to make sure the
>charging voltage does not exceed 14.0 volts."
>
>So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
>in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
>even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
>does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
>wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
>Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
>need a 24V charger.
>
>Thanks for the clarification!
>
>grant-
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been thinking about your BMS sys as playing with my bio controlled
sys (turn the knob by hand) has shown the need . But were dose it end . My
set up looks at 2 6v batteries as my panel is 70 watts 12v . when I find a
low bat it is probable just one of the two . and it is also likely that its
one cell of the 3 . could one screw a small SS screw through the top and
hit the connecting legs . could than put in diodes . may sound like a lot
of diodes but all electranonics sells some 200v 6 amp d620 for $40/per 100 .
160 dollars and your set for a 120 sys. you wouldn't be able to turn them
off to equalize but would you have to ?? A bat comp could put a small ss
nut on the tops with a plastic bolt (to keep things from shorting on them) .
If you don't mind let me dream on here a little more. A dc/dc converter
running off a separate 12v bat with 5 2.5v 10 amp outputs that's 125 watts
(10 amp drain on 12v aux) 8 rows of 8 switches and you can charge 5 low
cells any were in the pack while driving . ( I know your thinking how long
is this going to take , less time that in dose to fill and pay for a tank of
gas) and when you find the stinkers you know were they are .
still dreaming , how about a DC/DC converter with 60 2.5v outputs and an
comparator that compares each cell to the average pack and picks and
chargers all lower that the average.
woooo heavy dreaming now . I feel a rats nest coming on now .
Steve Clunn.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: Single cell regulators
> Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> > Since I'm working with AGM batteries that have external interconnects,
> > and since there's only 24v worth of them, what options are available
> > for regulating them on a cell-by-cell basis?
>
> Since your regulating voltage is so low (2.4v to 2.5v), heat generation,
> even at 2 amps bypass current isn't such a problem. The simplest
> solution is probably just 4 ordinary diodes in series. Their current is
> negligible at 2.2v (0.55v per diode) and high at 2.5v (0.625v per
> diode). Use 1N4001 for up to 1 amp bypass, 1N5401 for 3 amps, etc.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> At 10:28 AM 1/14/2003 -0800, Otmar stated:
>
> >>I was just talking to the Evercel sales guy, and he mentioned that while
> >>the MB100's are monobloc construction, the M100's are actually 7 cells in
> >>a case, and it would be possible to disassemble one into individual cells!
> >>Now that could be interesting....
> >>
> >>Anyone have an M100 to look at really close?
> >
> >Hi John,
> >I took pictures of one. Here's a good one:
> >http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/M100pic.JPG
>
> So each cell would be about 2.05" x 6.75" (guessing here), and 8.67" tall.
> Just how are they held in the M100 case? Hmm, may need to look into this
> more carefully.
> An Optima YT is 10" x 6.8". So I might be able to barely fit 5 NiZi cells
> in the space of 1 Optima.
> That comes out to about 111 V - kinda low, but 86 AH - kind nice. It would
> be the equivalent of 9 M100's (+ 2 cells).
> It's is a bit over available height, 8.67" tall vs 8.5" space - but the
> cells may only be 8.5" tall. Then it's just trying to figure out how to
> wedge cables in....
>
> Still, dropping the voltage that far down may not be useable. Especially
> since I believe the NiZi tends to sag rather heavily.
> Also a damn lot of work.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
I really like this idea of ripping apart Evercells. Then we can stick single
cells anywhere possible.
Any body See a MB100 8 celler out there??? They are supposed to be in the states
by now. 8 cells and externally buss bared. It's still amazing the heat that the
bars make... they could certainly be made thicker... for less I2r losses....
HUmm
Rich Rudman
On the 400.
My Signature file is on the 1Gig...
This ones got spell check....can you tell????
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:03 AM 1/14/2003 -0800, Rich Rudman stated:
I really like this idea of ripping apart Evercells. Then we can stick single
cells anywhere possible.
Any body See a MB100 8 celler out there??? They are supposed to be in the
states
by now. 8 cells and externally buss bared. It's still amazing the heat
that the
bars make... they could certainly be made thicker... for less I2r losses....
The MB series are MonoBloc - i.e. one big chunk that can't be
disassembled. I specifically asked about that when I was told the M100's
could possibly (with a lot of work) be disassembled.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will allow someone to make a mold of this fairing. It was developed by
Vetter/Rifle. It is ABS. I don't know the legal issues concerning copying
a body. I don't even know if it is legal or if a body style is
copyrightable. Lawrence Rhodes....I do however know that this fairing made
an ICE motorcycle get 500mpg. If a gallon of gas is equal to 600 pounds
of batteries... well you can figure it out....
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: New EV Project
> Hi Lawrence and All,.
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I don't totally agree with Tom. He is right if you
> > leave it as is. But if
> > you use a full faring and I mean a full fairing
> > covering the whole bike it
> > shouldn't be hard to do it at 48v as long as the
> > hills aren't too bad and
> > you only want to go about 60mph. I have a fairing
> > that will work and only
> > needs 3hp to push it 60 mph. Lawrence Rhodes....
> Fairings are needed to do anything over 45 mph
> with any range.
> The fairing only needs to come past the driver
> and gently turning the air back toward the rear center
> then cut it off cleanly. As long as the rear is in the
> cone of the most aft body angle it will have no aero
> drag from drafting.
> Doing this and keeping forward fairing area as
> low as possible should keep problems of side gusts
> from wind or semi's low.
> I would not build one too low as being able to
> see and be seen is nessesary to not be killed on
> todays hiways. Eye level should be at least 48" high
> for safety.
> Anyone using a trailer for batts must have brakes
> on it!!!!! Motocycles are known for swapping ends and
> a trailer with weight will make it happen at a much
> lower speed without brakes on the trailer.
> Be careful of loanng someone you fairing to make
> copies. It's really easy to get the parts glued to
> each other reducing both to junk. Only allow
> experenced composite people to do it.
> Costs are fairly low at composite job shops at
> about $6-8/ lbs of part in most cases. At least have
> them make the mold from you fairing.
> jerry dycus
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These links worked for me.
Sounds like some neat stuff.
http://www.warmfloor.com/solutions.pdf
http://www.warmfloor.com/trifold.pdf
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of John RA Benson
I recently used a product for subfloor heating in my house, and was thinking
it would make a perfect battery warmer (as well as something for heating a
doghouse). http://www.warmfloor.com. I just looked at their site again it is
unfortunately under construction, but they are very helpful on the phone.
They are marketing to the construction industry, but I'm sure they'd be
intrigued by new markets. The product is a self-regulating plastic, 3/64"
thick that comes in a 12" wide roll. It's flat, not a wire. I think you
could purchase it in any length. The product I used for my floors uses 24
volts AC or DC and the specs say it self regulates power draw from
8.5watts/feet at 32�F to 5.5 watts at 104�F ambient. There is also a 12V
version for the RV industry. What intrigues me is that it has a large
surface area for heating and is NOT delicate in any way. You can staple
through the plastic, as long as you don't go through the braids at the
sides. You cut it to length with scissors. I don't recall, but I think the
maximum temperature the plastic reaches is only 85�F. Turn down the voltage
to reduce maximum temp. I have a 5 meg installation PDF file with full tech
specs if anyone is interested. It's a bit pricey though, I think around
$11/foot.
JRAB
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about mounting the batteries to a very large PC board.:)
I am half serious.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of 1sclunn
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 4:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Single cell regulators
I have been thinking about your BMS sys as playing with my bio controlled
sys (turn the knob by hand) has shown the need . But were dose it end . My
set up looks at 2 6v batteries as my panel is 70 watts 12v . when I find a
low bat it is probable just one of the two . and it is also likely that its
one cell of the 3 . could one screw a small SS screw through the top and
hit the connecting legs . could than put in diodes . may sound like a lot
of diodes but all electranonics sells some 200v 6 amp d620 for $40/per 100 .
160 dollars and your set for a 120 sys. you wouldn't be able to turn them
off to equalize but would you have to ?? A bat comp could put a small ss
nut on the tops with a plastic bolt (to keep things from shorting on them) .
If you don't mind let me dream on here a little more. A dc/dc converter
running off a separate 12v bat with 5 2.5v 10 amp outputs that's 125 watts
(10 amp drain on 12v aux) 8 rows of 8 switches and you can charge 5 low
cells any were in the pack while driving . ( I know your thinking how long
is this going to take , less time that in dose to fill and pay for a tank of
gas) and when you find the stinkers you know were they are .
still dreaming , how about a DC/DC converter with 60 2.5v outputs and an
comparator that compares each cell to the average pack and picks and
chargers all lower that the average.
woooo heavy dreaming now . I feel a rats nest coming on now .
Steve Clunn.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm building an electric bicycle that will have two
> 12V batteries wired in series to produce 24V. The
> plans I have state:
>
> "You may charge the batteries in series, requiring a
> 24 volt charger, or in parallel, requiring a 12 volt
> charger. What is critical, is to make sure the
> charging voltage does not exceed 14.0 volts."
>
> So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
> in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
> even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
> does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
> wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
> Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
> need a 24V charger.
>
> Thanks for the clarification!
>
> grant-
>
Grant,
They are telling you that you can use a 12V charger but you have to rewire
the two batteries so they are in parallel.
There are other ways that you can charge with 12V chargers:
You can use two 12V chargers one for each battery (the chargers must be
isolated, most are) this will also charge twice as fast.
You can charge one battery, then the other. But, you must completely
charge both batteries or you will over-discharge the battery with the least
charge.
Hope this helps.
Mike Pengelly
Phoenix, AZ
'90 Mustang EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow 500mpg, that is a heck of a fairing. Do you have any pictures? I
think there might be patent potential for such a fairing. I don't think
Copyrighting is appropriate. It is usually acceptable to copy copyrighted
material if it is not for profit. So you could be liable if you sell the
copies. Patented materials may have different laws, I am not as familiar
with them.
Laws aside, when dealing with small shops or individuals efforts it is
polite to ask permission. A small formality that usually pays off as many
are more then happy to have their work appreciated. But to copy someones
"Work of Art" without permission is not nice.
At 01:13 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
I will allow someone to make a mold of this fairing. It was developed by
Vetter/Rifle. It is ABS. I don't know the legal issues concerning copying
a body. I don't even know if it is legal or if a body style is
copyrightable. Lawrence Rhodes....I do however know that this fairing made
an ICE motorcycle get 500mpg. If a gallon of gas is equal to 600 pounds
of batteries... well you can figure it out....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, there are two types of this product - resistive wire and two wire
"bus" with resistive plastic between them. I thought of the former one.
Bus type indeed can have regions with different temps along and
different currents at any spot.
Victor
George Tylinski wrote:
>
> In the Omega product, the heat is not generated in the wires, they act
> as a bus. There is a conductive plastic with + temp coefficient in the
> gap between the wires, this is where the heat is generated. When the
> temp and resistance is high, the current goes through the copper. When
> cold, the plastic partially shorts the conductors and self-heats.
>
> Still, it's susceptible to the first part of the cable draining all the
> current and heat if the thermal load permits it. You'd want to stick to
> shorter paralleled runs. It does not look like it has a tight min bend
> radius anyway, you'd have to terminate it and go around corners (or
> parallel them) with regular wire.
>
> It may also get way hotter than you'd like, as Joe S pointed out. You
> have no control over the "gain" of the system. If the control is poor,
> you may end up increasing the temperature variations across the battery
> string, though the batts would certainly be warmer.
>
> - GT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:26 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Battery heaters
> >
> >
> > John Lussmyer wrote:
> > >
> > > At 06:03 PM 1/13/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov stated:
> > > >Self-regulating wire won't maintain the same temperature
> > for all the
> > > >batteries if, say, some behind front grille get cooled off
> > more than
> > > >those in the cabin. It may yield about the same current
> > (better than
> > > >nothing), but no active temp control.
> > >
> > > I don't think you are thinking of the same heat cable as I
> > am. This
> > > active heating element resistance goes up with temperature. So as
> > > things get hotter, it heats less. This tends to maintain a stable
> > > temperature. Since it's the actual material of the cable that does
> > > this, one piece of it can be sucking the amps, while 3" away it's
> > > already hot enough and is nearly idle.
> >
> > Huh? The current through any wire (including this cable) is
> > identical at any point by definition, whether it includes
> > regions of higher resistance or not. When one small region
> > getting hotter current *through all* the cable is reduced,
> > but is the same at any crossection point.
> >
> > Victor
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
In frustration with the impending oil war and rollback of environmental
standards, I'm finally going to do what I should have done before and get
into EVs. Since I can no longer buy an EV from a major manufacturer, I'm
debating whether to buy an existing conversion or do one of my own. I need
a typical 30-40 mile commute, preferably mostly at highway speeds. There
are alternate roads, but the stop signs stretch the time quite a bit (and I
can't gloat from the HOV lane). I haven't started to explore whether I can
get an opportunity charge at work. Even on the alternate roads, NEVs
aren't an option. I could drive around my cul de sac, but the first street
I hit after that is residential but posted at 45mph.
I have read Convert It and Build Your Own Electric Vehicle. I have a 99 VW
Cabrio that I'm considering for conversion. I'm afraid it is a bit heavy
though. Anyone have any experience with this? I think it is essentially a
Jetta chassis, but the body might be heavier to stiffen the convertible.
As far as a used EV, I see quite a variety of options. Many have had new
batteries in the last ~3 years but not much use. A typical example: 21 HP
Advanced DC FB1-4001, 108 DC volts Curtis PMC 1221B-7401 Transistor
Controller, 18 U.S. Battery Company deep cycle batteries (charged by K-W
BC-20 onboard charger) New batteries on Sep 2000 with 3,000 total miles on
them.
Is this a concern? What is the lifetime of a lightly used set of batteries?
If I need to get more speed out of it, and assuming the motor isn't maxed
out, what are my options? New controller? Higher voltage? Both? Can I
determine what the limiting factor is during a test drive?
Besides checking other cars for sale, are there any references for
determining the "blue book" of a conversion EV?
Thanks in advance for your help and for your patience with the newbie
questions.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I realized I was talking about different flavor of the same
idea. Both are being offered for sale. Please excuse my lack of
attention. I know exactly what are you talking about and what is
being discussed. ( ...crawling under table... )
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Huh? The current through any wire (including this cable) is
> > identical at any point by definition, whether it includes regions
> > of higher resistance or not. When one small region getting hotter
> > current *through all* the cable is reduced, but is the same at any
> > crossection point.
>
> Victor, this heat cable looks like ordinary 2-conductor wire; two highly
> conductive wires in an insulating jacket. However, the insulation is
> really a carbon-loaded conductive elastomer, whose resistance strongly
> depends on temperature. Current flows thru the insulation to produce the
> heat.
>
> As the insulation heats up, its resistance goes up; so it become
> self-limiting. This has the interesting characteristic that if one
> section of the wire is well insulated (such as, going thru a hole in a
> piece of styrafoam), it only heats to its self-regulated temperature. If
> another section is touching something cold (like pinched between two
> batteries), then it produces maximum heat. Thus, it acts like hundreds
> of little heaters and thermostats, all in parallel.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
