EV Digest 2535
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Single cell regulators
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: newbie EV questions
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: New EV Project
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in s
eries for 24V
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: New EV Project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New EV Project, bike range
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: newbie EV questions
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Have any clubs sponsored and EV rally?
by "Wallace, Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EVs on ABC Monday Morning News
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) application of NASA supercap technology
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV Insurance
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New EV Project (Copywrited fairing)
by "Chris Crouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Single cell regulators
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: newbie EV questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: New EV Project
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Single cell regulators
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: New EV Project
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV Insurance
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: application of NASA supercap technology
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V
by "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Since your regulating voltage is so low (2.4v to 2.5v), heat
> generation,
> even at 2 amps bypass current isn't such a problem. The simplest
> solution is probably just 4 ordinary diodes in series. Their
> current is
> negligible at 2.2v (0.55v per diode) and high at 2.5v (0.625v per
> diode). Use 1N4001 for up to 1 amp bypass, 1N5401 for 3 amps, etc.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a try. I assume I could
also use 1N4004/1N5404 since the ..01 versions aren't listed at my
local electronics suppliers.
--
Lesley Walker
Ms Supergeek
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Glad to have you on the list, and seriously considering converting/purchasing
an EV. Here are some things that I considered before I made the decision
to purchase a preconverted car. Note that this is just my list, and there
are as many opinions as people (perhaps more):
1. Cost
Realistically, it is going to cost you in the neighborhood of $10k US
to convert a vehicle, not including the cost of the vehicle itself (if you
don't have it). Sure, you can spend more, and you can try to get by with
less, but IMHO you won't really be happy with your conversion if you spend
less than that. The major components: motor, controller, batteries, safety
equipment, cabling, welding, charger, vacuum pump, etc., are a substantial
investment.
2. Reasons for wanting an EV
If the main reason you want an EV is to reduce or eliminate your dependence
on oil, you probably want to do it as soon as possible, which would lean
toward purchasing one that has already been converted. But, if you are
really interested in the whole process and how it works, and are reasonably
mechanically minded, this would lean toward converting it yourself. I am
only somewhat mechanically inclined, so I have other EVers help me out with
stuff I'm not familiar with, don't know how to do, or don't want to do.
Converting yourself will allow you to get exactly what you want, but at
the expense of money and time.
3. Timeframe
How soon do you want to be on the road? Before the Iraq war? I'd suggest
buying a preconverted one. Okay to wait 6 months to a year? Lean toward
doing your own conversion.
4. Space available to work
If you don't have a covered garage you can work in, out of the rain/snow,
it will be extremely difficult to complete a conversion yourself--personally,
I wouldn't even try it. If this type of space is available, that's in your
favor for a conversion.
Per your other questions about specifics of used vehicles, I'd advise you
to hookup with some EVers in your area (not sure where that is). If you
live in CA, there are a ton of EV clubs you can hook up with. Check
http://www.eaaev.org/eaachapters.html
for the one nearest you.
My personal opinion, from watching this list, is that you should assume
you will be swapping out the batteries soon after you purchase a used EV.
Perhaps you can use the ones in there for a while, to learn about charging,
and then purchase a new set and get the maximum life out of them.
Is your commute 30-40 miles each way or total distance? If it's one way,
charging at work is probably going to be mandatory, unless you go with ultra
expensive batteries. If it's mostly flat, it will be less strain, but you
should plan you commute such that you don't drain more than 50% of capacity
before recharging, to maximize battery life.
My 2 cents.
Mark
>-- Original Message --
>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:40:47 -0800
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: newbie EV questions
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>Hi,
>In frustration with the impending oil war and rollback of environmental
>standards, I'm finally going to do what I should have done before and get
>
>into EVs. Since I can no longer buy an EV from a major manufacturer, I'm
>
>debating whether to buy an existing conversion or do one of my own. I
need
>
>a typical 30-40 mile commute, preferably mostly at highway speeds. There
>
>are alternate roads, but the stop signs stretch the time quite a bit (and
>I
>can't gloat from the HOV lane). I haven't started to explore whether I
can
>
>get an opportunity charge at work. Even on the alternate roads, NEVs
>aren't an option. I could drive around my cul de sac, but the first street
>
>I hit after that is residential but posted at 45mph.
>
>I have read Convert It and Build Your Own Electric Vehicle. I have a 99
VW
>
>Cabrio that I'm considering for conversion. I'm afraid it is a bit heavy
>
>though. Anyone have any experience with this? I think it is essentially
>a
>Jetta chassis, but the body might be heavier to stiffen the convertible.
>
>As far as a used EV, I see quite a variety of options. Many have had new
>
>batteries in the last ~3 years but not much use. A typical example: 21
>HP
>Advanced DC FB1-4001, 108 DC volts Curtis PMC 1221B-7401 Transistor
>Controller, 18 U.S. Battery Company deep cycle batteries (charged by K-W
>
>BC-20 onboard charger) New batteries on Sep 2000 with 3,000 total miles
on
>
>them.
>
>Is this a concern? What is the lifetime of a lightly used set of batteries?
>
>If I need to get more speed out of it, and assuming the motor isn't maxed
>
>out, what are my options? New controller? Higher voltage? Both? Can
I
>
>determine what the limiting factor is during a test drive?
>
>Besides checking other cars for sale, are there any references for
>determining the "blue book" of a conversion EV?
>
>Thanks in advance for your help and for your patience with the newbie
>questions.
>Chris
>
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> I am even considering leaving the
> tailpipes especially if I could put them to some clever use.
If you make your pack out of D cells or similar, you could stuff
quite a few of them into a fake tailpipe. Then it's just a matter
of how to hide the connections.
My two milliwatts worth.
--
Lesley Walker
Ms Semi-geek
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They talked about ballast. Is it that the batteries are low or do they
swing back and forth to compensate on the corners. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:45 AM
Subject: Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
> Here is a link to an article on the Seattle Time web site about the Tango.
> Pretty good coverage, for a short article, mostly on track. There are
> a couple of interesting details from Rick Woodbury about the Tango, so I
> suggest reading it.
>
>
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134614916_electric1
4.html
>
> Mark Dodrill
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
>in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
>even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
>does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
>wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
>Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
>need a 24V charger.
No, if you are going to charge the batteries in parallel using a single 12V
charger, then you need to disconnect the series wiring before wiring then in
parallel. If you don't you will short out the batteries and melt your
wires.
There is actually a third idea that is possibly better for your batteries
than either of the two you mentioned. Buy two(2) 12V chargers and charge
the batteries individually. If the chargers are isolated type chargers (no
DC connection from the AC input to the DC output) then you can connect the
chargers to the batteries while they are still wired in series.
If they are not isolated chargers then you must break the series connection
before connecting the chargers.
The advantage of this method comes from using "smart" chargers, they can
make sure that both batteries are fully charged without over charging the
other battery.
24V chargers will generally slightly overcharge one battery and (possibly)
slightly undercharge the other.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We went around and around about this fairing before. I was the only one
that wanted one. No one else coughed up the 600 bucks for one. Craig
Vetter himself was going to do 6. No one came up to the plate. I wound up
with the only one. Maybe Craig would make some if there is enough interest.
He said unless he does a few it isn't cost effective. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: New EV Project
> Wow 500mpg, that is a heck of a fairing. Do you have any pictures? I
> think there might be patent potential for such a fairing. I don't think
> Copyrighting is appropriate. It is usually acceptable to copy copyrighted
> material if it is not for profit. So you could be liable if you sell the
> copies. Patented materials may have different laws, I am not as familiar
> with them.
>
> Laws aside, when dealing with small shops or individuals efforts it is
> polite to ask permission. A small formality that usually pays off as many
> are more then happy to have their work appreciated. But to copy someones
> "Work of Art" without permission is not nice.
>
> At 01:13 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
> >I will allow someone to make a mold of this fairing. It was developed by
> >Vetter/Rifle. It is ABS. I don't know the legal issues concerning
copying
> >a body. I don't even know if it is legal or if a body style is
> >copyrightable. Lawrence Rhodes....I do however know that this fairing
made
> >an ICE motorcycle get 500mpg. If a gallon of gas is equal to 600
pounds
> >of batteries... well you can figure it out....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>What is the typical range you can expect from a motorcycle with standard
>wind resistance and minimal battery area? 10 miles maybe at 60mph?
Most of the better conversions I've seen get 10-20 miles at around 60mph.
However some of these have managed to squeeze quit a bit of batteries into a
"typical" motorcycle frontal area.
Depending on the bike, you can get a lot of batteries into a minimal area.
The swing arm and back side of my bike's frame is 14" wide. I was able to
get five group 24 batteries and a 6.7" motor to fit into a 14" wide battery
rack. I think I could have fit 7-8 YTs in a frame that was only about 20"
wide.
I wish I could give you range figures for my bike, but the batteries have
been sitting in storage for 6+ years (with periodic charging). The range is
improving slowly, but right now it's very short. I might have to switch to
YTs sooner than I planned.
My goal is to get 30+ miles with 5 YT or YT equivalents and a fairly
streamlined fairing (rider is not enclosed, but front wheel might be)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's because the batteries are low--that's the ballast. They've left open
the design for other possible fuel sources (CNG, Hydrogen) in the same place,
with balast of some sort to bring the weight back up to the expected value,
for proper handling.
Mark
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:06:29 -0800
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>They talked about ballast. Is it that the batteries are low or do they
>swing back and forth to compensate on the corners. Lawrence Rhodes....
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:45 AM
>Subject: Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
>
>
>> Here is a link to an article on the Seattle Time web site about the Tango.
>> Pretty good coverage, for a short article, mostly on track. There are
>> a couple of interesting details from Rick Woodbury about the Tango, so
>I
>> suggest reading it.
>>
>>
>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134614916_electric1
>4.html
>>
>> Mark Dodrill
>>
>
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>as far as a used EV, I see quite a variety of options. Many have had new
>batteries in the last ~3 years but not much use. A typical example: 21 HP
>Advanced DC FB1-4001, 108 DC volts Curtis PMC 1221B-7401 Transistor
>Controller, 18 U.S. Battery Company deep cycle batteries (charged by K-W
>BC-20 onboard charger) New batteries on Sep 2000 with 3,000 total miles on
>them.
>
>Is this a concern? What is the lifetime of a lightly used set of batteries?
Sorry to say it, but it depends. If they have been well maintained during
that three years AND you maintained them well after you buy it...you can
probably get 2-4 years worth out of them.
Here is the thing, most newbies murder there first set of batteries.
Without a state-of-the-art charger and battery management system (something
lacking in 99% of the conversions out there), the care and feeding of
lead-acid batteries takes experience. Generally the only way to gain
experience is through trial and error which typically kills you first pack.
What I'm saying is that this is probably an ideal pack for a newbie. It's
probably been reasonable well cared for so has some life in it, and you
won't feel so bad about killing it in only a year or so (typical).
If you buy this one, check the pack voltage. If it hasn't been charged
recently (with in a day or so) it should read at least 115V. If it's 108 or
less then they haven't been taking very good care of it.
If it's 120V+ then it recently came off charge (that's ok).
Check specific gravity of EVERY cell. You'll need a battery fluid tester
(hydrometer) for this. They should have one and should be able to properly
demonstrate how to use it. If they don't/can't then assume the pack has not
been properly cared for.
>If I need to get more speed out of it, and assuming the motor isn't maxed
>out, what are my options? New controller? Higher voltage? Both? Can I
>determine what the limiting factor is during a test drive?
The motor is nowhere near maxed out, I believe it can go to 144V (156V?)
without any modifications. The controller is rated for up to a 120V pack
and I believe will work fine to at least 132V. The problem is fitting the
extra batteries in, the vehicle might not be rated for the extra weight
(~63lbs per battery) or it might not have space for them.
A different controller might be able to push more amps through the motor
(more torque/better acceleration), however pulling more amps from this type
of battery will shorten their life.
Note: Some folks have had problems with the 1221B controller shorting out
when used with the 9"(FB1-4001) ADC motor. That is why Curtis developed the
1221C and no longer sells the 1221B. If you increase the voltage, even up
to the rated 120V, you 'might' have this problem.
>Besides checking other cars for sale, are there any references for
>determining the "blue book" of a conversion EV?
There is no "blue book" on EVs. For the most part each one is an individual
with nothing to directly compare to. Some folks try to get $15K for there
EVs (and sometimes do), some try to get even more.
Most sell for less than the price of the components. This is the cheapest
way to get into an EV, even if you want to do your own conversion you can
get all the parts for much less than they will cost new.
A good price for a basic, running EV is $3000-$4000. Some of the nicer ones
will draw $7,000-$8,000. A lot of fixer uppers with dead batteries go for
$1,000-$2,000.
Decide how much you can afford and wait around until you find a nice one in
that price range (unless you've already found one).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why did Toyota cancel the RAV4, why is CARB backing off on
requirements. No new CAFE requirements. Do you think it might be because
of the money involved?
Lets look at the money:
- Manufacturer sells car, gets paid, makes reasonable profit, is happy.
- EV driver buys car, saves on ownership costs, is happy.
- Government reduces costs of pollution, defense, etc, but also reduces
tax revenue by 50 cents a gallon not consumed, is not happy.
Back in the 70s GM offered a propane engine. It was available for 6 months
and then suddenly it was off the map. What happened? The government
realized it wasn't getting it's gas tax revenue. The government offers
incentives to automakers to build factories to create jobs in their area
for payroll tax. They have a bunch of bean counters who look at the
projected tax revenue from each source and the impact each policy has on
that revenue. They are required to do this as a part of their bond
selling activities.
So we will never have plentiful EVs from a major manufacturer, or even
reasonable responses from our government entities on most matters
regarding EVs. They want to know "where is their money?" How will they
keep the roads maintained (and all the other things that 50 cents a gallon
pays for).
We will never have plentiful EVs until we find a way to make our
government a partner in this venture instead of just an investor. We know
that we save them money, but we also reduce their revenue. Lost revenue
hits them right away. Savings don't matter until way after the fact,
that's just the nature of government finance.
So we need to find a way to pay tax on our cars that the Tax Collector's
offices will notice and attribute particularly to EVs. Something that they
can account for. Something they can point to and say "Wow, last year our
state had 500 EVs and we received 200 dollars each for them in taxes, this
year we had 1000 EVs and we received US$200K, how can we increase
that number next year?"
When that happens our collective governments will be MUCH more responsive
to our needs and requests.
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ -----@`---(=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking that a road rally for EVs might be fun, but I know very
little about how to stage a rally. Have any EV clubs or organizations
staged a rally before?
I have read a little and it looks to me like any group of vehicles that
start and end at common points can call the excursion a rally.
The rally styles that look the most useful to me are gimmick, shortest
distance, best fuel economy.
The gimmick rally includes the polker run. All of this type require
collecting some sort of clues or collateral along the route to be added to
an official scoring card. At the end of the rally (over suitable food and
beverage I would hope) the score cards are tallied and the winner announced.
The sortest disance appears to be set up such that the start and end points
are connected by multiple routes. Each team tries to figure out how to
traverse the course while covering least miles.
The best fuel economy rally is handicapped by vehicle weight. This type
shows real promise as an EVent.
I am looking for ideas as to how to (where to) start and end this type of
event. I was thinking that a trailer park might be the best end point. One
with lots of outlets (120vac, 240vac) available. Also, getting the vehicles
to the start point and then getting them all charged up before the start
might be challenging.
Does anyone on the list have experience or ideas about such an EVent?
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT NICADS
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph Vaughn-Perling wrote:
> How will they
> keep the roads maintained (and all the other things that 50 cents a gallon
> pays for).
This is easy. Yearly inspection renewal fee should include road repair
tax. EV are wearing roads at about the same rate as ICE counterparts
so it's only fair.
Gov't could shift ALL gas tax revenue to inspection tax revenue, so
being EV won't be an issue.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov writes:
>
> Joseph Vaughn-Perling wrote:
>
> > How will they
> > keep the roads maintained (and all the other things that 50 cents a gallon
> > pays for).
>
> This is easy. Yearly inspection renewal fee should include road repair
> tax. EV are wearing roads at about the same rate as ICE counterparts
> so it's only fair.
A weight/mile tax. I'd really like to see this in Oregon instead of the
extra (arbitrary) fee added to the vehicle registration cost for electric
and hybrid vehicles. Then everyone would pay for the road damage they
cause.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone catch the story ABC Morning News had on a two-seater EV?
It was Monday morning.
If you did could you send me info on which EV it was?
A visitor to our site mentioned it but didn't know which EV it was.
I'm guessing it's the ZAP.
Thanks
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...for those who do not read NASA Tech Briefs, here is an interesting tidbit...
TECH TRANSFER NEWS
The NASA Illinois Commercialization Center (NICC) is working with
Illinois-based companies NetGain Technologies and KineticSystems to
establish a joint collaboration with NASA's Glenn Research Center in Ohio.
The ultimate goal of the collaboration is to use NASA ultracapacitor
technology to improve the performance of electric vehicles.
NetGain distributes electric motors, controllers, and products related
to electric vehicles. To promote the acceptance and use of such vehicles,
NetGain owns and races a battery powered electric drag racer. The company
is looking at NASA Glenn's ultracapacitor technology to improve the
vehicle's performance. The dragster would serve as a testbed for the
technology, which could be used in other electric or hybrid vehicles.
KineticSystems, which provides data acquisition products, is designing
the data acquisition hardware and software needed to capture the data
that NASA and NetGain require from the tests.
Both companies are in discussion with NASA regarding the use of the
ultracapacitor technology, and are applying for a commercialization
award from the NICC. The collaboration could lead to other applications
of the technology for a variety of engines and powertrains.
Visit http://link.abpi.net/l.php?20030114A2 for more information.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have added an insurance-related link on our site at
http://www.electroauto.com/info/bur.shtml This links to an online broker
called Insuresuite who claims to be able to provide insurance quotes for
any car or driver.
FULL DISCLOSURE: We do not have any experience with Insuresuite. Yes,
they will pay us a bounty for any legitimate quotes generated from our
link, but believe me, we ain't gonna get rich off of it I am posting this
primarily in the hope that it will prove to be a useful connection for EV
owners having trouble getting insurance. I would appreciate feedback -
good or bad - from anyone who interacts with Insuresuite. The kind of
feedback I get will determine whether or not the link stays on our site.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fairing could be copied as long as something is different. I had to
reasearch some of this while I was in the planning stage of constructing a
mold off of my R6 fairing. The difference in that fairing was the simple
removal of a back section of the fairing.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a try. I assume I could
> also use 1N4004/1N5404 since the ..01 versions aren't listed at my
> local electronics suppliers.
They would work fine. The last digit just identifies the peak reverse
voltage (1N4001=50v, 1N4002=100v, 1N4003=200v, 1N4004=400v, etc.)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Dodrill wrote:
> 1. Cost
> Realistically, it is going to cost you in the neighborhood of
> $10k US to convert a vehicle, not including the cost of the vehicle
> itself (if you don't have it).
I wouldn't go quite this far. EVs are like any other car; they can be in
any price range from $1000 to $100,000. The more you spend, the nicer it
is. Even below $1000 is possible, but you're talking about a real
'beater' that few people would want to drive to work every day.
>> I'm debating whether to buy an existing conversion or do one of my
>> own.
Buying an existing conversion gets you on the road a lot sooner. But,
you are also limited to the vehicles available. Depending how picky you
are, they may not suit you. There are also usually some pre-existing
problems that will need to be sorted out ("needs batteries" being the
most common).
>> I need a typical 30-40 mile commute, preferably mostly at highway
>> speeds.
That's slightly ambitious, but not too hard to do. It mainly means
picking a vehicle that's reasonably efficient and had 30% or more of its
curb weight in batteries.
>> I have read Convert It and Build Your Own Electric Vehicle.
They are a good start.
> I have a 99 VW Cabrio that I'm considering for conversion.
That's a possible candidate, though it might be tough to stuff enough
batteries into it. Do you mind losing the back seat and trunk space?
One caution about converting an older or high-mileage car: If the car
isn't already in good shape, you'll spend a lot more money and time than
you expect just fixing up the car itself. New brakes, tires, struts,
paint job, etc. eat up time and money fast.
>> New batteries on Sep 2000 with 3,000 total miles on them. Is this
>> a concern? What is the lifetime of a lightly used set of batteries?
With batteries, *everything* depends on how they were treated. Brand new
batteries can be ignored to death in just a year, or outright murdered
in a couple months. Or, a set can be 5 years old (or more!) and still
quite usable.
>> If I need to get more speed out of it, and assuming the motor isn't
>> maxed out, what are my options? New controller? Higher voltage? Both?
Speed is rarely a problem. Range is usually the biggest roadblock and
the hardest to fix.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know what it would take to do my own fairing. $600 is fairly
reasonable. But I am not so sure what fits your bike would fit mine. What
are you riding? And you have any pictures?
At 04:16 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
We went around and around about this fairing before. I was the only one
that wanted one. No one else coughed up the 600 bucks for one. Craig
Vetter himself was going to do 6. No one came up to the plate. I wound up
with the only one. Maybe Craig would make some if there is enough interest.
He said unless he does a few it isn't cost effective. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: New EV Project
> Wow 500mpg, that is a heck of a fairing. Do you have any pictures? I
> think there might be patent potential for such a fairing. I don't think
> Copyrighting is appropriate. It is usually acceptable to copy copyrighted
> material if it is not for profit. So you could be liable if you sell the
> copies. Patented materials may have different laws, I am not as familiar
> with them.
>
> Laws aside, when dealing with small shops or individuals efforts it is
> polite to ask permission. A small formality that usually pays off as many
> are more then happy to have their work appreciated. But to copy someones
> "Work of Art" without permission is not nice.
>
> At 01:13 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
> >I will allow someone to make a mold of this fairing. It was developed by
> >Vetter/Rifle. It is ABS. I don't know the legal issues concerning
copying
> >a body. I don't even know if it is legal or if a body style is
> >copyrightable. Lawrence Rhodes....I do however know that this fairing
made
> >an ICE motorcycle get 500mpg. If a gallon of gas is equal to 600
pounds
> >of batteries... well you can figure it out....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:40 PM 1/13/03, you wrote:
John Lussmyer wrote:
> I will need to figure out some way of switching the heat cable off
> during charging -- as I'm pretty sure the extra current draw would
> confuse the Zivan.
Get or make a current sensing relay. When the Zivan draws curernt, it
pulls in the relay, whose contact turns off the heater.
The Zivan NG3 H_A_S status contacts built in. Two sets of SPDT,
actually
On set of contacts closes when the bulk charge is under way. The
other set closes when the finish charge is underway. Easy to wire so that
the heaters come on when you want them to and don't come on when you don't
want them to. No need for a current sensing relay or other fancy stuff.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > Joseph Vaughn-Perling wrote:
> >
> > > How will they
> > > keep the roads maintained (and all the other things that
> 50 cents a gallon
> > > pays for).
>
> A weight/mile tax. I'd really like to see this in Oregon
> instead of the
> extra (arbitrary) fee added to the vehicle registration cost
> for electric
> and hybrid vehicles. Then everyone would pay for the road damage they
> cause.
In New Zealand, we have such a scheme for diesel vehicles, which
could very easily be extended to cover EVs. Over here, the price
of petrol (gasoline) has road tax built into it, but diesel doesn't,
so operators of diesel vehicles have to pay what we call Road User
Charges. I'm not familiar with the details since I've never owned a
diseasel, but there's a nice page that gives all the information
anyone could possibly want:
http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/38.html
(when looking at the dollar figures, bear in mind that NZ$2~=US$1)
--
Lesley Walker
Miss Information
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre Blanchard wrote:
>
> How about mounting the batteries to a very large PC board.:)
> I am half serious.
Possible. It would work best with individual cells that have threaded
studs for the connections.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was the main reason I wasn't interested in this fairing. It is
quite small, designed for a small bike and a small to average rider.
On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 20:27, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> I know what it would take to do my own fairing. $600 is fairly
> reasonable. But I am not so sure what fits your bike would fit mine. What
> are you riding? And you have any pictures?
>
> At 04:16 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
> >We went around and around about this fairing before. I was the only one
> >that wanted one. No one else coughed up the 600 bucks for one. Craig
> >Vetter himself was going to do 6. No one came up to the plate. I wound up
> >with the only one. Maybe Craig would make some if there is enough interest.
> >He said unless he does a few it isn't cost effective. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:10 PM
> >Subject: Re: New EV Project
> >
> >
> > > Wow 500mpg, that is a heck of a fairing. Do you have any pictures? I
> > > think there might be patent potential for such a fairing. I don't think
> > > Copyrighting is appropriate. It is usually acceptable to copy copyrighted
> > > material if it is not for profit. So you could be liable if you sell the
> > > copies. Patented materials may have different laws, I am not as familiar
> > > with them.
> > >
> > > Laws aside, when dealing with small shops or individuals efforts it is
> > > polite to ask permission. A small formality that usually pays off as many
> > > are more then happy to have their work appreciated. But to copy someones
> > > "Work of Art" without permission is not nice.
> > >
> > > At 01:13 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
> > > >I will allow someone to make a mold of this fairing. It was developed by
> > > >Vetter/Rifle. It is ABS. I don't know the legal issues concerning
> >copying
> > > >a body. I don't even know if it is legal or if a body style is
> > > >copyrightable. Lawrence Rhodes....I do however know that this fairing
> >made
> > > >an ICE motorcycle get 500mpg. If a gallon of gas is equal to 600
> >pounds
> > > >of batteries... well you can figure it out....
> > >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just FYI,
I recently went to stated value policy (often done
for classic cars), so that if someone hits me, I get
the cost of the electronics, (7K), and not the $500
that an ICE rabbit would get me. It was only $30 more
per 6 mos (about 500/year), but when I asked for the
quote of 11K stated value, (knowing the labor cost of
Mike's work), the cost jumped dramatically. BTW, this
is with Allstate.
C-ya,
--- Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We have added an insurance-related link on our site
> at
> http://www.electroauto.com/info/bur.shtml This
> links to an online broker
> called Insuresuite who claims to be able to provide
> insurance quotes for
> any car or driver.
>
> FULL DISCLOSURE: We do not have any experience with
> Insuresuite. Yes,
> they will pay us a bounty for any legitimate quotes
> generated from our
> link, but believe me, we ain't gonna get rich off of
> it I am posting this
> primarily in the hope that it will prove to be a
> useful connection for EV
> owners having trouble getting insurance. I would
> appreciate feedback -
> good or bad - from anyone who interacts with
> Insuresuite. The kind of
> feedback I get will determine whether or not the
> link stays on our site.
>
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113
> Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books *
> Videos * Since 1979
>
=====
Bob Bath, #2 VoltsRabbit; '02 9A mulch. Black & Decker mower
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/239.html
____
/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are
you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The link did not work but I did find one at
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/displ
ay?slug=electric14&date=20030114&query=tango
It could be the same article with a different URL.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:45 AM
Subject: Article in Seattle Times about the Tango
> Here is a link to an article on the Seattle Time web site about the Tango.
> Pretty good coverage, for a short article, mostly on track. There are
> a couple of interesting details from Rick Woodbury about the Tango, so I
> suggest reading it.
>
>
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134614916_electric1
4.html
>
> Mark Dodrill
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:43 PM 1/14/03, you wrote:
...for those who do not read NASA Tech Briefs, here is an interesting
tidbit...
TECH TRANSFER NEWS
The NASA Illinois Commercialization Center (NICC) is working with
Illinois-based companies NetGain Technologies and KineticSystems to
establish a joint collaboration with NASA's Glenn Research Center in Ohio.
The ultimate goal of the collaboration is to use NASA ultracapacitor
technology to improve the performance of electric vehicles.
The folks at NASA were talking to me about this as well. It looks
like they have decided on NetGain instead of my racing program. :^(
It got really weird talking with them lately and now I know why.
First, they were going to give me a pack of these for free. I did
a bunch of computer modeling and figured out what the bike needed and sent
them the required pack specs. They then told me it would cost me $7500 for
the caps (instead of free.) I said, "OK, I can scrape that up." Then,
without a logical explanation, the price jumped to $50,000. Of course, this
was way out of my league, so I declined. Like I said, it got weird.
My computer model showed that running caps on the strip is
completely different than running batteries. These particular caps are a
better than the SVR batteries I'm running now, but only if I made serious
modifications to the controller and totally re-geared the vehicle to match
the discharge profile of the caps. Without the modifications, the bike
would have gone slower, not faster. To drag race successfully with
supercaps, you must start with a blank sheet of paper and completely
re-think the problem.
I wish NetGain luck, but I suspect that getting super caps to
perform well on the drag strip is going to be a lot harder than either NASA
or NetGain fully realize.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
If we had a split supply (+12V - 0 - -12V), would it not be possible to charge the
batteries without rewiring?
Prasad
http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
_____________________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'EV List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:49 AM
Subject: RE: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V
>So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
>in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
>even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
>does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
>wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
>Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
>need a 24V charger.
No, if you are going to charge the batteries in parallel using a single 12V
charger, then you need to disconnect the series wiring before wiring then in
parallel. If you don't you will short out the batteries and melt your
wires.
There is actually a third idea that is possibly better for your batteries
than either of the two you mentioned. Buy two(2) 12V chargers and charge
the batteries individually. If the chargers are isolated type chargers (no
DC connection from the AC input to the DC output) then you can connect the
chargers to the batteries while they are still wired in series.
If they are not isolated chargers then you must break the series connection
before connecting the chargers.
The advantage of this method comes from using "smart" chargers, they can
make sure that both batteries are fully charged without over charging the
other battery.
24V chargers will generally slightly overcharge one battery and (possibly)
slightly undercharge the other.
--- End Message ---
