EV Digest 2536
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
series for 24V
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: newbie EV questions
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EVLN(hybrid cost$ versus benefits)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVLN(gm's optional mild hybrid, all hype no batt)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EVLN(%hybrids most popular because they are available%)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Intel EV charging ...
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New EV Project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V
by "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: application of NASA supercap technology
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) DC-DC converters, WAS: charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New EV Project
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: application of NASA supercap technology
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Help with Newly Aquired electric G-Van
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on how adjustable the split supply is. For lead acid
batteries you actually want something that can go up to about 15.5V for
floodeds and 14.5 or so for sealed.
Also the two sides must be independent, many split supplies just
regulate the positive rail and adjust both rails to match the positive.
Since the loads might not be the same the this might cause an imbalance.
On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 20:59, Prasad wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> If we had a split supply (+12V - 0 - -12V), would it not be possible to charge the
>batteries without rewiring?
>
> Prasad
>
> http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'EV List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:49 AM
> Subject: RE: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for
>24V
>
>
>
> >So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
> >in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
> >even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
> >does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
> >wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
> >Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
> >need a 24V charger.
>
> No, if you are going to charge the batteries in parallel using a single 12V
> charger, then you need to disconnect the series wiring before wiring then in
> parallel. If you don't you will short out the batteries and melt your
> wires.
>
> There is actually a third idea that is possibly better for your batteries
> than either of the two you mentioned. Buy two(2) 12V chargers and charge
> the batteries individually. If the chargers are isolated type chargers (no
> DC connection from the AC input to the DC output) then you can connect the
> chargers to the batteries while they are still wired in series.
> If they are not isolated chargers then you must break the series connection
> before connecting the chargers.
>
> The advantage of this method comes from using "smart" chargers, they can
> make sure that both batteries are fully charged without over charging the
> other battery.
>
> 24V chargers will generally slightly overcharge one battery and (possibly)
> slightly undercharge the other.
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Weight/mile tax is good, it can be done at the time of the smog check, but
it might be to easy to defraud by resetting odometers.
The Oregon model is bad but it is the best we have right now. We need a
way to start paying the governments so they let the Automakers build as
many of these cars as they can sell. Then we all win.
Until we cut the government in on this, we will get no help from them.
Mandates are great, but taxes are better. Once we get to the new era of
EV cars, the net tax rake will be lower because of the reduced expenses to
government. We can also eventually relax some of the environmental laws
because we won't be so much in danger of overloading the carrying capacity
of our atmosphere. This will also stimulate more business (and tax
revenue).
We are doing a horrible job of explaining to government "what's in it for
them". Dollars are one easy way to do that.
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
Victor Tikhonov writes:
>
> Joseph Vaughn-Perling wrote:
>
> > How will they
> > keep the roads maintained (and all the other things that 50 cents a
gallon
> > pays for).
>
> This is easy. Yearly inspection renewal fee should include road repair
> tax. EV are wearing roads at about the same rate as ICE counterparts
> so it's only fair.
A weight/mile tax. I'd really like to see this in Oregon instead of the
extra (arbitrary) fee added to the vehicle registration cost for electric
and hybrid vehicles. Then everyone would pay for the road damage they
cause.
Ralph
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ -----@`---(=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:40 PM
Subject: newbie EV questions
> Hi,
> In frustration with the impending oil war and rollback of environmental
> standards, I'm finally going to do what I should have done before and get
> into EVs. Since I can no longer buy an EV from a major manufacturer, I'm
> debating whether to buy an existing conversion or do one of my own. I
need
> a typical 30-40 mile commute, preferably mostly at highway speeds.
There is a big difference between 55 and 65 in the power you use . is that
40 miles one way ?
There
> are alternate roads, but the stop signs stretch the time quite a bit (and
I
> can't gloat from the HOV lane). I haven't started to explore whether I
can
> get an opportunity charge at work.
If its 40 miles one way than this would be needed ( to keep things simple)
Even on the alternate roads, NEVs
> aren't an option. I could drive around my cul de sac, but the first
street
> I hit after that is residential but posted at 45mph.
as they are almost the price of a conversion and a lot more that a used one
will drop this opp/
> I have read Convert It and Build Your Own Electric Vehicle. I have a 99 VW
> Cabrio that I'm considering for conversion. I'm afraid it is a bit heavy
> though. Anyone have any experience with this? I think it is essentially
a
> Jetta chassis, but the body might be heavier to stiffen the convertible.
How many miles to a gallon dose it get. ?
> As far as a used EV, I see quite a variety of options. Many have had new
> batteries in the last ~3 years but not much use. A typical example: 21
HP
> Advanced DC FB1-4001, 108 DC volts Curtis PMC 1221B-7401 Transistor
> Controller, 18 U.S. Battery Company deep cycle batteries (charged by K-W
> BC-20 onboard charger) New batteries on Sep 2000 with 3,000 total miles on
> them.
A good question . How many miles dose the average ADC 9 inch go in an
average EV . I wouldn't be surprised at 200 k if treated right . (not over
120v ect)
> Is this a concern? What is the lifetime of a lightly used set of
batteries?
This will depend on how you car for them .
> If I need to get more speed out of it, and assuming the motor isn't maxed
> out, what are my options? New controller? Higher voltage? Both?
It is a lot easer to get more speed from an EV that a gas engine
if you have a 120v controller and are running 96v that going up will help
(you will also need a new charger)
Can I
> determine what the limiting factor is during a test drive?
small motor ,controller voltage maxed, not room for more bats, you can find
this out over the phone.
> Besides checking other cars for sale, are there any references for
> determining the "blue book" of a conversion EV?
If you don't mind doing a little work there are some great deals in the
trader . Doing a little work on a used EV will help you get to know it , I
predict there will come a day when we won't see used EV's going for less
that what the parts are .
going with new parts is also good for a number of reasons
1 you help keep a parts supplier in biss (not something many people thing
about when buying things )
2 you get parts that are the latest technology ( I would stay away form
stuff that you don't see other people using in the album)
3 you recycle a gas car and put another EV on the road (leaving that good
deal for somebody else to jump on)
> Thanks in advance for your help and for your patience with the newbie
> questions.
> Chris
have you driven a conversion and if so what were the spec. ???
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think this is a real good point you are making . As there are more and
more EV's on the road the revenue lost will have to be picked up by the
people still using gas which in retrun will make more people want to switch
. at some point somthing will have to be done . Maybe a tax on tires? We
are a long way from this point . even at 10 % ev on the road that would
just require a %10 increas in gas tax.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Vaughn-Perling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
> Why did Toyota cancel the RAV4, why is CARB backing off on
> requirements. No new CAFE requirements. Do you think it might be because
> of the money involved?
>
> Lets look at the money:
>
> - Manufacturer sells car, gets paid, makes reasonable profit, is happy.
> - EV driver buys car, saves on ownership costs, is happy.
> - Government reduces costs of pollution, defense, etc, but also reduces
> tax revenue by 50 cents a gallon not consumed, is not happy.
>
> Back in the 70s GM offered a propane engine. It was available for 6 months
> and then suddenly it was off the map. What happened? The government
> realized it wasn't getting it's gas tax revenue. The government offers
> incentives to automakers to build factories to create jobs in their area
> for payroll tax. They have a bunch of bean counters who look at the
> projected tax revenue from each source and the impact each policy has on
> that revenue. They are required to do this as a part of their bond
> selling activities.
>
> So we will never have plentiful EVs from a major manufacturer, or even
> reasonable responses from our government entities on most matters
> regarding EVs. They want to know "where is their money?" How will they
> keep the roads maintained (and all the other things that 50 cents a gallon
> pays for).
>
> We will never have plentiful EVs until we find a way to make our
> government a partner in this venture instead of just an investor. We know
> that we save them money, but we also reduce their revenue. Lost revenue
> hits them right away. Savings don't matter until way after the fact,
> that's just the nature of government finance.
>
> So we need to find a way to pay tax on our cars that the Tax Collector's
> offices will notice and attribute particularly to EVs. Something that they
> can account for. Something they can point to and say "Wow, last year our
> state had 500 EVs and we received 200 dollars each for them in taxes, this
> year we had 1000 EVs and we received US$200K, how can we increase
> that number next year?"
>
> When that happens our collective governments will be MUCH more responsive
> to our needs and requests.
>
>
> --
> ____
> __/o|__\~ ~ ~
> `@ -----@`---(=
> http://www.SoCalEV.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you need 14.8v not 12 v otherwise I think it would . Ive seen 15v + -
dc/dc converters that put out 2 amps for less that $10 supples
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
series for 24V
> Hi all,
>
> If we had a split supply (+12V - 0 - -12V), would it not be possible to
charge the batteries without rewiring?
>
> Prasad
>
> http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'EV List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:49 AM
> Subject: RE: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
series for 24V
>
>
>
> >So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
> >in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
> >even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
> >does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
> >wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
> >Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
> >need a 24V charger.
>
> No, if you are going to charge the batteries in parallel using a single
12V
> charger, then you need to disconnect the series wiring before wiring then
in
> parallel. If you don't you will short out the batteries and melt your
> wires.
>
> There is actually a third idea that is possibly better for your batteries
> than either of the two you mentioned. Buy two(2) 12V chargers and charge
> the batteries individually. If the chargers are isolated type chargers
(no
> DC connection from the AC input to the DC output) then you can connect the
> chargers to the batteries while they are still wired in series.
> If they are not isolated chargers then you must break the series
connection
> before connecting the chargers.
>
> The advantage of this method comes from using "smart" chargers, they can
> make sure that both batteries are fully charged without over charging the
> other battery.
>
> 24V chargers will generally slightly overcharge one battery and (possibly)
> slightly undercharge the other.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(hybrid cost$ versus benefits)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
Hybrids Match Conventional Cars On Benefits, According to
New Report by Freedonia Group
CLEVELAND--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 9, 2003--A new Freedonia
Group study covering light vehicle powerplants in the United
States illustrates how dramatically hybrid-electric
automobiles have closed the performance gap with traditional
gasoline-powered cars. Lance Ealey, Director of Freedonia
Group's automotive practice, indicated that the key
challenge for hybrids will be in achieving cost parity with
traditional light vehicle powerplants.
"The hybrids built by Toyota and Honda are already quite
competitive with gasoline engines today," said Ealey. "The
remaining issue is to bring costs into line with those of
gasoline engines, which will begin to occur as production
volumes rise."
The report includes a price versus benefits analysis, which
plots the relative benefits of examples of hybrid-electric
vehicles compared with selected diesel and gasoline-powered
automobiles. In this case, the vehicles tend to be from the
subcompact and compact automobile segments, with a few
higher segment (but similar) gasoline-powered vehicles added
to more firmly establish the gasoline fueled, spark ignition
powerplant composite line.
The factors included in the benefits index are: city fuel
economy expressed in miles per gallon; 0 to 60 mph
acceleration time; 60 to 0 mph braking distance; vehicle
range in miles on one tank of fuel; interior passenger space
measured in cubic feet; cargo space measured in cubic feet;
and the current retail value of a one-year old used version
of the models studied. Finally, each of the elements of the
benefits index was weighted according to indicated customer
perceptions of importance, to more fully replicate true
customer demand.
"It is striking how close the hybrids already come to the
spark ignition powerplant composite line," said Ealey.
"Clearly, the strategies of Toyota and Honda have been to
match performance first, then work to reduce price. What's
also interesting is the performance parity between the
hybrids and the Volkswagen turbo diesel, with both
technologies having a price premium versus the gasoline
engine vehicle."
The analysis is part of a new report by Freedonia Group:
Hybrids and Competing Automotive Powerplants (Study 1617).
The 245-page report forecasts demand for light vehicles
equipped with gasoline and diesel internal combustion
engines, full and mild hybrid electric powerplants and fuel
cells in the US through 2011.
CONTACT: Freedonia Group Corinne Gangloff, 440/684-9600
SOURCE: Freedonia 01/09/2003 16:22 EASTERN
-
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(gm's optional mild hybrid, all hype no batt)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
Continental Teves ISAD System Chosen by General Motors for
Hybrid Truck Project: Project Signals Move Towards 42-Volt
Battery and Electrical System
AUBURN HILLS, Mich., Jan. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- Automotive
systems supplier Continental has been selected to provide an
advanced crankshaft starter alternator damper including the
electric energy system for an upcoming gasoline-electric
hybrid version of the General Motors full-size pickup truck.
Beginning with the 2004 model year, the Chevy Silverado and
GMC Sierra trucks will offer an optional hybrid propulsion
package featuring Continental's Integrated Starter
Alternator Damper system, known as ISAD. According to
General Motors, the ISAD system will help the trucks gain
fuel economy improvements of up to 15 percent.
The ISAD system replaces the conventional starter, generator
and flywheel with one electronically controlled unit
providing instant starts, high- efficiency 42-volt
electrical power and active damping of the powertrain
system. A key feature in the GM truck installation will be
the ability to convert braking energy into electricity, a
process known as regenerative braking. Also, the ISAD
system will power 42-volt accessories in the vehicle such as
power steering. This saves energy, parts and weight by
eliminating individual components and the traditional belt
drive system.
In the GM application, the ISAD system will help save fuel
by allowing the engine to shut down when the vehicle comes
to a stop. It supplies power to accessories while the
vehicle is stationary, restarting the engine immediately
when the driver presses on the accelerator. The entire
process is instant, smooth and virtually transparent to the
driver.
A unique feature of the GM hybrid system will be a pair of
20 amp, 110- volt AC outlets, allowing the system to operate
as a generator suitable for uses such as running power tools
and recreational equipment.
According to General Motors, the ISAD system will allow the
truck's 285- horsepower hybrid V-8 to haul and tow just as
much as its conventional counterpart. "Unlike our
competitors who use the electric motor as a power assist in
a small powertrain but give up some utility, we will give
you all the acceleration, towing and hauling capability that
you've come to expect from a truck V-8 engine," said Tom
Stephens, vice president of GM Vehicle Integration. "That
means people can tow boats, haul a full load or climb steep
grades and still have improved fuel economy.
"We believe hybrids are going to make the most sense in
higher fuel consumption vehicles, including pickup trucks,"
Stephens added. "You can save significantly more total fuel
converting a 20 mpg vehicle into a hybrid than you would
converting a 30 mpg vehicle, especially if it's a vehicle
that sells in large volumes."
Continental AG, headquartered in Hanover, Germany, had 2001
sales of approximately $10 billion (US). Continental is a
world leader in the design, development and supply of
critical brake and chassis systems that contribute to
driving safety and comfort. For additional information,
visit this website: www.conti-online.com .
SOURCE Continental Teves CO: Continental Teves; General
Motors ST: Michigan SU: http://www.prnewswire.com
01/07/2003 16:00 EST
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(%hybrids most popular because they are available%)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
'Green' Vehicle Popularity Soars, According to R. L. Polk & Co.
DETROIT, Jan. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- Environmentally friendly
vehicles have seen a 54-fold increase in popularity in the
past five years, according to analysis of vehicle
registrations by R. L. Polk & Co.
>From January through October 2002, seven electric and
gas-electric hybrid vehicles accounted for nearly 35,000
registrations, compared to just 650 new registrations in
1997. Gas-electric hybrids accounted for nearly 83 percent
of the 2002 registrations.
Nearly 30 percent of all environmentally friendly vehicles
are from California Designated Marketing Areas (DMAs), where
higher fuel costs (nearly 20 cents per gallon more than the
national average) and stricter environmental regulations
have sparked growth in "green" vehicles. Three of the top
five "green" vehicle markets -- Los Angeles, San Francisco
and Sacramento -- are in California.
Designated Marketing Area Number of New Registrations
Los Angeles, CA 5,141
San Francisco, CA 3,461
Washington, D.C. 1,976
Sacramento, CA 1,459
New York, NY 1,338
The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic, both gas-electric hybrid
vehicles, are the most popular environmentally friendly
vehicles, representing 78 percent of the total "green"
vehicle registrations. The Prius accounted for
approximately 17,500 registrations, while the Civic reached
nearly 10,000.
About R. L. Polk & Co.
Polk has served the automotive industry for more than 80
years and is the longest standing curator of automobile
records in the United States. Founded in Detroit in 1870,
Polk launched its motor vehicle statistical operations in
1922 when the first car registration reports were published.
The company now provides automotive solutions to nearly
every segment of the motor vehicle industry as an analytical
consultant and statistician, as a provider of
database-marketing services, and as a supplier of vehicle
histories. Based in Southfield, Mich., Polk is a privately
held global firm, currently operating in Australia, Brazil,
Canada, France, Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, Mexico,
Spain, the United Kingdom and the United States.
SOURCE R. L. Polk & Co. CO: R. L. Polk & Co. ST:
Michigan SU: http://www.prnewswire.com 01/06/2003 12:56 EST
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--- Begin Message ---
Today I met with a couple of gracious Intel EV'rs who
showed me the EV charging at the Santa Clara site.
We met at the Garage B EV charging on the first floor.
The evi ics-200 AVCON spot had a RAV4 EV parked in it
and the LPI gen2 spot had a nice looking gold color
honda plus in it.
It was nice to still be able to see a Honda EV plus in
use and on the road. The clean white RAV4 EV was soon
to follw the same demise.
The Honda EV plus had its AVCON plugged in and was
already fully charged before afternoon. The RAV4 EV was
not charging because an LPI does not fit in the RAV4
EV's SPI slot.
The two were switched in position and only one plugged
in but that did not matter, in a sea of parked ICE,
those two EVs were defending the marked and signed EV
spots from the obscenely huge SUVs roaming the parking
lot, hungry for a spot they will only half fit into.
...
We walked over to Garage D across the street, which is
next to the building I will be meeting the interviewing
manager tomorrow.
This garage did not have a luscious two EV charging spot
setup like the other. Instead there were five 120 VAC
outlets mounted 6 spaces apart on one row.
The electrician had labeled the circuit for each outlet,
and they were all different breakers. But as I walked the
parking structure, I saw the conduit ran vertical to the
above floors. The same breaker was used for the run to
the above floor (five breakers feeding five outlets on
each floor with five outlets per breaker).
All but one was labeled as an EV spot, but an ICE was
there as there was no parking control. It really did not
matter that the outlets were sharing a breaker, and were
not all signed. There were no other EVs to use the
outlets, and I could just park on top were there were
open spots with outlets.
I tested the wiring of one of the outlets by plugging in.
It was easy to push 10 amps at 140 VDC into my 132 V pack,
so the wiring must be 12/3 gauge and not too long a run
from the panel.
I was 40 ah down when I arrived, at a 10 amp rate, I
would be 80% charged in 4 hours. Even in a year when
I have a tired shorter range pack, this EV charging
at work will work out well until the new batteries
arrive.
If I get the job, it will be great to be able to drive
Electric to work. Commute traffic to and from will be
a bear, but a job is a job. I will need to learn what
public transportation options I have, encase my EV
ever needs work/down-time.
...
It is going to be hard to sleep tonight. I guess I will
spend time fussing with my clothes so I look spiffy for
the interview.
:-o
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--- Begin Message ---
It can be modified quite easily. Craig Vetter isn't a small man. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: New EV Project
> That was the main reason I wasn't interested in this fairing. It is
> quite small, designed for a small bike and a small to average rider.
>
> On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 20:27, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> > I know what it would take to do my own fairing. $600 is fairly
> > reasonable. But I am not so sure what fits your bike would fit mine.
What
> > are you riding? And you have any pictures?
> >
> > At 04:16 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
> > >We went around and around about this fairing before. I was the only
one
> > >that wanted one. No one else coughed up the 600 bucks for one. Craig
> > >Vetter himself was going to do 6. No one came up to the plate. I
wound up
> > >with the only one. Maybe Craig would make some if there is enough
interest.
> > >He said unless he does a few it isn't cost effective. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:10 PM
> > >Subject: Re: New EV Project
> > >
> > >
> > > > Wow 500mpg, that is a heck of a fairing. Do you have any pictures?
I
> > > > think there might be patent potential for such a fairing. I don't
think
> > > > Copyrighting is appropriate. It is usually acceptable to copy
copyrighted
> > > > material if it is not for profit. So you could be liable if you
sell the
> > > > copies. Patented materials may have different laws, I am not as
familiar
> > > > with them.
> > > >
> > > > Laws aside, when dealing with small shops or individuals efforts it
is
> > > > polite to ask permission. A small formality that usually pays off
as many
> > > > are more then happy to have their work appreciated. But to copy
someones
> > > > "Work of Art" without permission is not nice.
> > > >
> > > > At 01:13 PM 1/14/2003, you wrote:
> > > > >I will allow someone to make a mold of this fairing. It was
developed by
> > > > >Vetter/Rifle. It is ABS. I don't know the legal issues concerning
> > >copying
> > > > >a body. I don't even know if it is legal or if a body style is
> > > > >copyrightable. Lawrence Rhodes....I do however know that this
fairing
> > >made
> > > > >an ICE motorcycle get 500mpg. If a gallon of gas is equal to 600
> > >pounds
> > > > >of batteries... well you can figure it out....
> > > >
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Using split supplies (+15 - 0 - -15) would enhance battery life...wouldn't it. No need
to equalize (for 12V x 2)!!!
Prasad
http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
_____________________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in series for 24V
you need 14.8v not 12 v otherwise I think it would . Ive seen 15v + -
dc/dc converters that put out 2 amps for less that $10 supples
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
series for 24V
> Hi all,
>
> If we had a split supply (+12V - 0 - -12V), would it not be possible to
charge the batteries without rewiring?
>
> Prasad
>
> http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'EV List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:49 AM
> Subject: RE: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
series for 24V
>
>
>
> >So does this mean that I can wire the charging system
> >in parallel so that I can use a 12V battery charger
> >even though the batteries are wired in series? Or
> >does it mean that if I want to disconnect the series
> >wiring I can then charge the batteries in parallel:
> >Therefore, if I want to leave the wiring alone then I
> >need a 24V charger.
>
> No, if you are going to charge the batteries in parallel using a single
12V
> charger, then you need to disconnect the series wiring before wiring then
in
> parallel. If you don't you will short out the batteries and melt your
> wires.
>
> There is actually a third idea that is possibly better for your batteries
> than either of the two you mentioned. Buy two(2) 12V chargers and charge
> the batteries individually. If the chargers are isolated type chargers
(no
> DC connection from the AC input to the DC output) then you can connect the
> chargers to the batteries while they are still wired in series.
> If they are not isolated chargers then you must break the series
connection
> before connecting the chargers.
>
> The advantage of this method comes from using "smart" chargers, they can
> make sure that both batteries are fully charged without over charging the
> other battery.
>
> 24V chargers will generally slightly overcharge one battery and (possibly)
> slightly undercharge the other.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you at liberty to say whose cap they are, and how many of what
capacity? I didn't see a name in the article.
Thanks,
Seth
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> At 04:43 PM 1/14/03, you wrote:
> >...for those who do not read NASA Tech Briefs, here is an interesting
> >tidbit...
> >
> >
> >TECH TRANSFER NEWS
> >The NASA Illinois Commercialization Center (NICC) is working with
> >Illinois-based companies NetGain Technologies and KineticSystems to
> >establish a joint collaboration with NASA's Glenn Research Center in Ohio.
> >The ultimate goal of the collaboration is to use NASA ultracapacitor
> >technology to improve the performance of electric vehicles.
>
> The folks at NASA were talking to me about this as well. It looks
> like they have decided on NetGain instead of my racing program. :^(
>
> It got really weird talking with them lately and now I know why.
>
> First, they were going to give me a pack of these for free. I did
> a bunch of computer modeling and figured out what the bike needed and sent
> them the required pack specs. They then told me it would cost me $7500 for
> the caps (instead of free.) I said, "OK, I can scrape that up." Then,
> without a logical explanation, the price jumped to $50,000. Of course, this
> was way out of my league, so I declined. Like I said, it got weird.
>
> My computer model showed that running caps on the strip is
> completely different than running batteries. These particular caps are a
> better than the SVR batteries I'm running now, but only if I made serious
> modifications to the controller and totally re-geared the vehicle to match
> the discharge profile of the caps. Without the modifications, the bike
> would have gone slower, not faster. To drag race successfully with
> supercaps, you must start with a blank sheet of paper and completely
> re-think the problem.
>
> I wish NetGain luck, but I suspect that getting super caps to
> perform well on the drag strip is going to be a lot harder than either NASA
> or NetGain fully realize.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had good luck with the bipolar DC-DCs from www.astrodyne.com. I
don't use them for battery charging, and I don't normally use their
AC-DC onverters, but the website is worth a look. I also just stumbled
upon (and will buy a few) 18-75VDC input DC-DCs from www.aconinc.com for
a wide input range motor control I am working on.
Seth
1sclunn wrote:
>
> you need 14.8v not 12 v otherwise I think it would . Ive seen 15v + -
> dc/dc converters that put out 2 amps for less that $10 supples
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:59 PM
> Subject: Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
> seri
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawerence and All,
In the boating industry to legally copy
another boat they just had to modify it a little.
usually by broadning or sqeezing the beam to change it
and the lenght by a couple of inches.
That said, Vetter sould be called and offer a
payment of say $50 each unit copied for his work,
research as his work saves you much money.
ABS plastic is almost impossible for the
fiberglass to stick to so just a couple of good waxing
should suffice. But ABS if left in the sun will crack
after a few years so keep it covered to last many
years. The caps on my SAFT ni-cads for my e-bike are
breaking from this, I should have known better.
For others making their own, just buy thin
sheet alum, fiberglass or Lexan, build a forward frame
and bend the sheet around it. Just a forward fairing
that is wider than the e`bike, you whichever is wider
will give you almost as much aero as a full fairing as
long as the aft ends angle straight back. Give it a
good rake angle aft at the top and cover the front
wheel with it too.
Your handle bars may need to be narrowed by
bending back or shortning to be able to turn while
keeping the fairing as narrow as possible.
I've been using handlebars that are narrow and
a squarish circular pattern that works great as can be
used with either hand for brakes, e control. These can
be made by cutting the stock bars and welding them
back together into sort of a circle.
The reason I like a full body fairing is
driving in the rain, winter along with better range.
The front fairing sounds like what Peter
wants to do and a good way to go. His range est sound
good.
One thing to remember is that AGM's have less
range than flooded sealed batts like Dynasty's unless
you use over 200 amps cont.
HTH,
jerry dycus
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It can be modified quite easily. Craig Vetter isn't
> a small man. Lawrence
> Rhodes.....
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Careful, the hotter the battery is maintained, the porportionately shorter
life it will have. I set mine to 50F since that's the lowest temp I can
stand and still get to work.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
> At 10:12 AM 1/13/2003 -0800, Lee Hart stated:
> > > I'm testing running the self-regulating heat cable off the pack
> > > voltage (156V nominal). It seems to draw about .8 A at 165V after
> > > it comes up to temp. That's 130 watts of heat, about 65 per
> > > compartment. The battery compartment sides/bottom are pretty well
> > > insulated, so I think that should be enough heat.
> >
> >That would be low around here (Minnesota) but might be enough for you.
> >
> > > After 3 hours the batteries were only up to 66 deg (from 45
> > > ambient). We'll see what they are like in the morning.
>
> The batteries seem to have stabilized at around 85 deg F. Since that is
> still a bit lower than I wanted, I'm going to look into using 240 VAC to
> drive the heat cable for a higher temp. (definitely test on the bench
first!)
> What I could use is a 240 VAC lamp dimmer that can handle a few amps, or a
> small variac.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: application of NASA supercap technology
Hi Bill;
Bummer! Maybe they don't want to get into bikes, in an SUV economy.
> The folks at NASA were talking to me about this as well. It looks
> like they have decided on NetGain instead of my racing program. :^(
>
> It got really weird talking with them lately and now I know why.
>
It's the Govt! Nobody really steering the ship, so to speak. Like our
foreign relations policy, energy, or ANYthing else!
> First, they were going to give me a pack of these for free. I did
> a bunch of computer modeling and figured out what the bike needed and sent
> them the required pack specs. They then told me it would cost me $7500 for
> the caps (instead of free.) I said, "OK, I can scrape that up." Then,
> without a logical explanation, the price jumped to $50,000. Of course,
this
> was way out of my league, so I declined. Like I said, it got weird.
>
So you came up with specs. "Oh HO!This guyz serious, got to get rid of
him, jack the price up!" they had to do something, to scare you off.
> My computer model showed that running caps on the strip is
> completely different than running batteries. These particular caps are a
> better than the SVR batteries I'm running now, but only if I made serious
> modifications to the controller and totally re-geared the vehicle to match
> the discharge profile of the caps. Without the modifications, the bike
> would have gone slower, not faster. To drag race successfully with
> supercaps, you must start with a blank sheet of paper and completely
> re-think the problem.
>
Wouldn't it been nice for NASA, our tax dollars, to have a free Test
Pilot, who woulda been willing to put HIS money an' time into this?
> I wish NetGain luck, but I suspect that getting super caps to
> perform well on the drag strip is going to be a lot harder than either
NASA
> or NetGain fully realize.
>
Thanks for the Reality Check on this one, I second the above. If they
pull it off, I hope so, but not holding my breath.
>
Seeya
Bob @
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All , I was hoping one of you has or knows someone who does have a
1991 electric G-van as I just bought one from a government auction, from
what I can tell it has 216 volts of sickly 6v golf cart batts and shunt
wound dc motor with regen, it has a offboard charger but I just received
my new pfc 20 so will be installing it on board.
It has AC, PS, diesel fuel heater, and most important -NO-
documentation, save a small operators manual. From the little info I
could find on the net ,it was suppose to go up to 55 mph. and 50 plus
miles, of course reality may differ (smile)
So I am hoping someone has some docs for one of these, it was made by
"conceptor industries" no longer in existence.They appear to have made a
couple hundred at 50k$ each . It was based on the GM rally van and
looks to be a pretty well built
EV.
Thanks , Bill Brinsmead
University of Nevada, Physics Dept.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Prasad wrote:
> If we had a split supply (+12V - 0 - -12V), would it not be possible
> to charge the batteries without rewiring?
Certainly. There are even certain circumstances where this is easier.
For example, you can deliberately include some resistance in the center
leg of the power supply. This has the effect of making the two batteries
charge at closer to the same current, rather than operate as two
independent constant-voltage chargers.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> I think this is a real good point you are making. As there are more
> and more EV's on the road the revenue lost will have to be picked
> up by the people still using gas which in retrun will make more
> people want to switch. At some point something will have to be done.
First, it will take decades before there are enough EVs to make even a
0.1% dip in gasoline tax revenue.
Second, there are already mechanisms requiring you to pay the taxes even
if the fuel you use didn't include them. This covers vehicles fuelled
with electricity, propane, home heating oil, farm gas, aviation gas,
etc. It comes into play if a farmer buys gasoline for his tractors, but
then uses some of it in the family car, for example.
When I lived in Michigan, such taxes were paid by filing a "sales and
use tax" form. I got a time-of-use meter, and the electricity used for
charging my EV was reported quarterly on the Michigan "sales and use"
tax form. I could have "flown under the radar" and ignored it, but I was
running a small business in the basement, and had to file the returns
anyway. And, the EV used for the business, so its costs were deductible.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
