EV Digest 2537
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Aquarium Chillers
by "Mitchell Oates" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: application of NASA supercap technology
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Help with Newly Aquired electric G-Van
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV wanted in Reno, NV
by gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: newbie EV questions
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) why taxes on EVs are good for us
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Lectra right side battery covers
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery heaters
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Lectra parts
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) PFC20 vs Sparrow - there is hope
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: newbie EV questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Single cell regulators
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: PFC20 vs Sparrow - there is hope
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: DC-DC converters...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: DC-DC converters...
by Neil Wicai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: newbie EV questions
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Ventura County (CA) EAA meeting - 10am January 25th field trip to Phoenix
Motorcars
by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV wanted in Reno, NV
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) New AC motors and inverters (was newbie EV questions)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Aquarium Chillers
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New EV Project
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EV Warrior info needed
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Las Vegas EV people
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV wanted in Reno, NV
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: DC-DC converters...
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone, long time no post. Glad to see '02 pass away,
was so busy the past year that the truck has been sitting idle for
over 9 months. Now hopefully I'll have time to get the beast back on
the road.
One item to do is rig up some type of battery cooling. 40 to 50
C temps in the battery box during daily use in the summer most
likely contributed to the early demise of most of the pack.
Along this line, I've found what may be an oddball source for
battery cooling and perhaps even air conditioning - aquarium
chillers. My sister's Foster Smith aquarium catalog
(www.drsfostersmith.com) and several other websites list quite a
few of these chillers, both thermoelectric and freon based.
Apparently over the past few years, saltwater and reef style
aquariums have become quite popular, and require fairly tight temp
control, including cooling during hot summers.
The freon based units are either in-line (run water hoses to and
from the tank), or have a chiller coil at the end of a flexible hose
that can be dropped in the tank. Their ratings are listed as
anywhere from 1/8 to 1/2 horsepower. 1/8 HP will supposedly
achieve a 25 F decrease below ambient on an uninsulated 45
gallon aquarium, and 10 F decrease on a 75 gallon aquarium. 1/2
HP will achieve a 25 F decrease on a 230 gallon tank, and a 10 F
decrease on an 800 gallon tank. If insulation is added (viewing side
left open), the temperature decreases will go up significantly.
One of the thermoelectric units is an in-line type, with two
models rated at 120 W and 240 W, that can be used as either a
heater or a chiller. Not much info in the catalog, other than a
recommended flow rate of 8 gpm, 120 W model recommended for
tanks up to 55 gallon, 240 W model for tanks up to 75 gallon. A
rough guess is that the 240 W model is equivalent to a 1/8 HP
freon unit.
Another of the thermoelectric units is the Cool Works IceProbe.
This is a small 50 W unit that actually mounts thru a hole in the
side of the tank and is in direct contact with the water. The
manufacturer website (www.coolworksinc.com) lists two of these
units as being able to maintain an uninsulated 10 gallon tank 12 F
below ambient, and a tank insulated on bottom and 3 sides 20 F
below ambient. It comes with a wall-wart power converter as it runs
off of 12V DC. There is a proportional temperature controller
available, which from the description of it's operation could very well
be a PWM type controller. While the aquarium chiller model (rated
for saltwater aquariums) lists for over $100, I found the standard
model (for drinking water coolers) listed for around $60 depending
on who was selling them.
The descriptions above were mainly from the Foster Smith
catalog. There are many other websites with different brands and
models of these chillers listed, but the above is a pretty good
illustration of what's available. While nearly all but the largest units
would be too small for any type of air conditioning rig, they could
be useful as far as rigging up an insulated battery box cooling
system for those in hot climates.
Mitch Oates
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Too bad you didn't get the supercaps Bill, I'm sure you would have
put them to good use!
If it doesn't give anything away or violate any agreements or
anything, enquiring minds would love to hear your thoughts on
controllers using supercaps.
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
I believe there is an EV List member that knows.
Meanwhile, look at the EV List Album
http://evalbum.com
and search with
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=electric+G-van+
for more info and contacts.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Desert Research Institute, Reno NV is interested in acquiring an
EV for running errands such as picking up mail and packages. It would
need to go about 35-40 miles at up to 65 mph and have the capacity of
a small min-van or station wagon. They do not want a fixer-upper or
something that will need a lot of maintenance. I could not think of
anything they could purchase new from any of the major manufacturers
so would like to hear of cars you might know of that would serve
their purpose and be within a reasonable transport range, as CA, NV or
other nearby states. It is quite disheartening to me that I cannot just
tell them which local dealer could accomodate them. Other than Lectra
Motors, a Nevada EV manufacturer of many years ago, I don't think there
have been any commercially available vehicles here except the NEVs.
Thanks for any suggestions. I would love to have an EV in use at DRI
but I can't really make any recommendations since all of the possibilities
are rapidly going off the market.
Gail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks everyone for the advice. Please see below
At 09:02 PM 1/14/2003 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
Mark Dodrill wrote:
>> I need a typical 30-40 mile commute, preferably mostly at highway
>> speeds.
That's slightly ambitious, but not too hard to do. It mainly means
picking a vehicle that's reasonably efficient and had 30% or more of its
curb weight in batteries.
This is 30-40 miles round trip, some hills (especially if I don't go highway).
> I have a 99 VW Cabrio that I'm considering for conversion.
That's a possible candidate, though it might be tough to stuff enough
batteries into it. Do you mind losing the back seat and trunk space?
I wouldn't mind losing some of it. I don't use the back seat much except
for additional carrying space.
The car gets about 25-30mpg in average use. It isn't like the older VW
cabriolets. It has a transverse mount engine with front wheel drive. It
also has power steering. I'm not sure if manual steering is available on
any of the Jettas. Is that a show stopper?
On the topic of the existing EV:
Speed is rarely a problem. Range is usually the biggest roadblock and
the hardest to fix.
The owner said "It's not highway material, but it regularly went 55 mph on
the flat road I used." Since I'm interested in some highway use, I'm
curious what my options would be to improve it if it does prove
insufficient. With a 21hp 9" Advanced DC more, I would think it has enough
motor. I guess I'll find out - I'm trying to arrange a test drive this
weekend.
1sclunn wrote:
2 you get parts that are the latest technology ( I would stay away form
stuff that you don't see other people using in the album)
A somewhat open question: Where are the technology changes happening (for
basic lower-end EVs)? Most of the conversion kits still feature Advanced
DC motors. I see a lot of discussion on chargers so I would guess that is
one area. What others? Regen braking? Is much changing in controllers?
Are lead-acid batteries getting much better? I want to know what areas an
older conversion might be behind what I'd put together myself.
Thanks,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee,
I did a little digging and found out pretty much the same thing. The
problem is that almost none of us are paying it.
It matters less that EVs are making a tiny dip in the gasoline tax
revenue, and matters more that they are making a dip at all.
If we are seen as tax avoiders/evaders, we lose credability. On the other
hand, the more tax we pay the more political clout we have. We don't want
them to think of us as fringe wierdo Greens with a gimick to save money,
we want to be a source of civic value and pride.
Why have alcohol and tobacco and gamboling and gasoline had such a free
ride through every test of government? Its because of the huge tax base
they create. Those industries are deleterious to the health of our
society, but they keep the public works projects funded. That makes all
the difference.
We EV drivers suck up tax money in the form of rebates and incentive
programs and give almost no money back. Sure we save the governments a
lot of money in the long term, but reducing revenue, even a little bit,
counts against us in a big way.
The technology is here today, we all experience that every day. The
manufacturers can easily find ways to make money producing these
cars. All we need is the support of government.
As Lee accurately points out, the "Use Fuel" taxes of the various State
Tax Boards of Equalization is a way that we can become a growing line item
on their budgets. IF we start (or more of us start) contributing, we can
get more government on our side.
(I NEVER thought I would be advocating paying more taxes. This feels
weird, but it is the only thing that makes sense to help explain the
RAV4 EV cancellation.)
Like any great endeavor, we have to progress by imagining clearly what the
world will be like once we succeed and each step along the way. Then take
positive action to effect that change.
As Ghandi said:
First they ignore you,
Then they laugh at you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ -----@`---(=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
=-=-=-
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:39:23 -0800
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RAV4 cancellation and why taxes on EVs are good for us
1sclunn wrote:
> I think this is a real good point you are making. As there are more
> and more EV's on the road the revenue lost will have to be picked
> up by the people still using gas which in retrun will make more
> people want to switch. At some point something will have to be done.
First, it will take decades before there are enough EVs to make even a
0.1% dip in gasoline tax revenue.
Second, there are already mechanisms requiring you to pay the taxes even
if the fuel you use didn't include them. This covers vehicles fuelled
with electricity, propane, home heating oil, farm gas, aviation gas,
etc. It comes into play if a farmer buys gasoline for his tractors, but
then uses some of it in the family car, for example.
When I lived in Michigan, such taxes were paid by filing a "sales and
use tax" form. I got a time-of-use meter, and the electricity used for
charging my EV was reported quarterly on the Michigan "sales and use"
tax form. I could have "flown under the radar" and ignored it, but I was
running a small business in the basement, and had to file the returns
anyway. And, the EV used for the business, so its costs were deductible.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 4 extra right side battery covers for the Lectra. Black. Trade or ?
Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's an idea for John Lussmeyer's Sparrow
problems ( specifically battery heating ).
I have Optimas in my Mini Pickup.
Last time I was in Canada, I popped into my
local Canadian Tire and bought a couple of
battery heater blankets. The 80 watt units
run from 110 Vac, and are long enough to
cover 5 "Optima widths" , i.e they will
cover the length of 5 Optimas, arranged side
by side. Yes, they're expensive, but they do
come with some insulation on one side, and are
made for heating batteries.
Other places like JC Whitney probably have things
like these too, especially where winter is nasty...
To control the temperature, I bought two
30 deg C bimetallic thermal switches, they come
in a small can about 1/2 inch diameter, 1/4 inch
thick with two spade terminals on. There's a
ring which bolts the end of the can onto the thing
you want to control the temperature of, and the can
itself is electrically isolated from the terminals.
Digikey probably carry these, I bought mine from
Farnell here in the UK.
(hint, Farnell can get US stuff from Newark Electronics,
so they may be in the Newark catalogue)
I bolted each one to a 4 inch x 4 inch aluminium
plate ( thin stuff, from old electronics boxes ).
Each one of these assemblies fits snugly against
the ends of two adjancent Optimas, with the
thermal switch itself nestling in the space created
by the rounded corners of the batteries. The aluminium
plate acts as a heatsink, meaning the switch will track
the battery temperature better. The heater blankets
cover the whole lot.
On my setup, the two heater blankets are wired in series,
since all our domestic AC power here in the UK is 240 Vac,
together with the two thermal switches ( also in
series ). That way, either of the two switches can
turn off the heaters.
Works great, batteries sit at around 25 deg C. ( 70 F ).
I do have some insulation around my battery box, but
it doesn't get too cold here in the UK.
Surely something like this could be crammed into
a Sparrow? I know the thermal switches can be had
with almost any switch-off temperature, from
10 deg C up to 130 deg C
( I have one of these inside my ceramic heater assembly
in the pickup too )
H.T.H.
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini Pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found more spare parts as I was cleaning out the garage. 2seats,2 wheels
one with a tire. The 3 spoke mags. Who needs em? Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to install my PFC-20 into my Sparrow, but I really do NOT want to
put it in the back "tool" area. Too much wiring and airflow problems.
Last night at the SEVA meeting we joked about modifying the Sparrow hood so
that the PFC-20 could be mounted where the Zivan is.
A PFC-20 is a LOT bigger than a Zivan NG3, right? Well... not really. I
did some measuring this morning. The Zivan is a couple inches longer (main
body, not mounting flanges), the same width, and only 1" shorter. So the
only real problem is the extra 1" height of the PFC-20.
There already is a little free space above the ZIvan.
So I pulled the Zivan out, and started fiddling with placing the PFC-20.
Final results are:
http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/Sparrow/PFC20HoodClosed.JPG
http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/Sparrow/PFC20-MayFit.JPG
It is NOT wired in! (yet)
I had to remove the Zivan mounting bracket/battery hold down.
The DC-DC will have to be moved. (it's kinda flopped over up in the corner
in that picture.)
I'll probably need to trim/cut off part of the PFC-20 mounting flange.
(Just take a Sawzall to it, right Rich? :-)
I then need to build some kind of mounting bracket and battery hold
down. (Just need to let the charger get within a 1/4" or so of the top of
the middle of the batteries. The old bracket forced it up at least a full
inch.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Weaver wrote:
> I have a 99 VW Cabrio that I'm considering for conversion...
> 30-40 miles round trip, some hills.
>> Do you mind losing the back seat and trunk space?
> I wouldn't mind losing some of it. I don't use the back seat much
> except for additional carrying space.
Then plan to use the back seat space for some of the batteries. You can
build a shelf over the top of them, so there is still quite a bit of
cargo space.
> It isn't like the older VW cabriolets. It has a transverse mount
> engine with front wheel drive.
That's fine. Lots of people have converted VW Rabbits, Golfs, and the
like. You can get plenty of advice on what works and what doesn't, where
to put things, performance, range, etc.
> It also has power steering. Is that a show stopper?
No. In some cases, you can eliminate the power steering and just put up
with the heavier manual steering. Or if you need power steering, it just
means that you keep the power steering pump, and drive it either with
the main traction motor, or with a small separate electric motor.
By the way, the same is true for power brakes, air conditioning, and
even the accessory 12v battery charger. You can drive all these
accessories from the traction motor with belts, exactly as was done for
the gasoline engine; or drive them with separate electric motors.
>> Speed is rarely a problem. Range is usually the biggest roadblock
>> and the hardest to fix.
> The owner said "It's not highway material, but it regularly went
> 55 mph on the flat road I used." Since I'm interested in some
> highway use, I'm curious what my options would be to improve it
> if it does prove insufficient. With a 21hp 9" Advanced DC motor,
> I would think it has enough motor.
An ADC 9" is certainly enough motor! If he only got 55 mph, then:
- his batteries are shot
- there are too few batteries (like 72v, which is too low to get
full power out of an ADC 9" motor)
- the controller is too small (like an old Curtis 1221B)
- his gearing is wrong
- the car is just too heavy, or has too much wind or rolling
resistance
All of these are fixable.
> A somewhat open question: Where are the technology changes
> happening (for basic lower-end EVs)?
At the low end, things are pretty stable. Most EVs are built with used
parts and/or parts designed for some other purpose like fork lifts.
> Most of the conversion kits still feature Advanced DC motors.
Because they are the easiest to get.
> I see a lot of discussion on chargers so I would guess that is
> one area.
Mainly because lots of people want to, or are able to build their own.
Also, there are LOTs of manufacturers of battery chargers (though again,
most of them are intended for other markets).
> Regen braking?
Rarely done in low-end EVs.
> Is much changing in controllers?
Yes. They're get better and cheaper.
> Are lead-acid batteries getting much better?
Yes, slowly but surely.
> I want to know what areas an older conversion might be behind what
> I'd put together myself.
When you're starting from scratch, even older stuff is probably higher
tech than you can build yourself. The advantage of using existing parts
is that you get to see "how it's done", which is a big advantage even if
you will later change it.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I plan to do this (well, opposite): to bolt a BMS PCB to the top of a
cell which has threaded holes at their terminals. Interconnect lugs go
first and torqued more, then goes PCB with another nut (less torque).
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Andre Blanchard wrote:
> >
> > How about mounting the batteries to a very large PC board.:)
> > I am half serious.
>
> Possible. It would work best with individual cells that have threaded
> studs for the connections.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ooops, typo in the URL. Try these
http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/Sparrow/PFC20HoodClosed.JPG
http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/Sparrow/PFC20-Mayfit.JPG
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of DC-DC:
Has anyone seen a good source for 300V->5V low power (4...5W) DC-DC
converters? I also want to step up 3.3V to 300V. Any recommendations?
Victor
Seth wrote:
>
> I have had good luck with the bipolar DC-DCs from www.astrodyne.com. I
> don't use them for battery charging, and I don't normally use their
> AC-DC onverters, but the website is worth a look. I also just stumbled
> upon (and will buy a few) 18-75VDC input DC-DCs from www.aconinc.com for
> a wide input range motor control I am working on.
>
> Seth
>
> 1sclunn wrote:
> >
> > you need 14.8v not 12 v otherwise I think it would . Ive seen 15v + -
> > dc/dc converters that put out 2 amps for less that $10 supples
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
> > seri
> --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Astrodyne is an excellent source. Use the link Seth gave you listed
below.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:21 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: DC-DC converters...
Speaking of DC-DC:
Has anyone seen a good source for 300V->5V low power (4...5W) DC-DC
converters? I also want to step up 3.3V to 300V. Any recommendations?
Victor
Seth wrote:
>
> I have had good luck with the bipolar DC-DCs from www.astrodyne.com. I
> don't use them for battery charging, and I don't normally use their
> AC-DC onverters, but the website is worth a look. I also just stumbled
> upon (and will buy a few) 18-75VDC input DC-DCs from www.aconinc.com
> for a wide input range motor control I am working on.
>
> Seth
>
> 1sclunn wrote:
> >
> > you need 14.8v not 12 v otherwise I think it would . Ive seen 15v +
> > - dc/dc converters that put out 2 amps for less that $10 supples
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries
> > wired in seri
> --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>A somewhat open question: Where are the technology changes happening (for
>basic lower-end EVs)? Most of the conversion kits still feature Advanced
>DC motors. I see a lot of discussion on chargers so I would guess that is
>one area. What others? Regen braking? Is much changing in controllers?
>Are lead-acid batteries getting much better? I want to know what areas an
>older conversion might be behind what I'd put together myself.
DC motors haven't advanced a whole lot in the last 100 years, so unless it's
a 'really' old motor that might be diffacult finding parts for...don't worry
about it.
For flooded Golf Cart batteries, newer chargers are nice and may add some
extra features, but old chargers work fine. In fact some folks on this list
use something dubbed a "bad boy" charger which is nothing more than a bridge
rectifier and enough extension cords to provide the proper resistance to
limit charging current. As the pack voltage comes up you remove extension
cords.
At any rate for flooded batteries, any working charger is fine.
For sealed batteries you want a charger that can at least do a two step and
preferably a three step charging profile that matches the requirements for
the particular batteries being used.
The biggest advances in EVs recently have been controllers. In the 1970's
contactor controllers were popular (just wires and switches). Late 70's
early 80's it was SCR controllers (efficiency is not so great). Early 90's
saw some MOSFET and lots of IGBT controllers. For voltages under 200V
MOSFETs are generally more efficient, above 200V IGBTs have start to be more
efficient and they are much cheaper than MOSFETs.
Some of the older conversions still come with contactor controllers (like
most citicars and comutavans) and some still have SCR controllers (like the
"Jet" series from the '80s)
Regen controllers for series wound motors are pretty much a wash. To work
OK you need a motor with interpole windings. I believe the only one
currently available is the Kostov (is Warp coming out with one?). If the
motor doesn't have interpoles (like the ADCs don't) then you need to set
your brushes for a neutral position which lowers efficiency when driving.
Either way it doesn't add much, if any, to range. It does help out with
braking though.
New series regen controllers for 120V and higher are difficult (impossible?)
to find these days. There are a few refurbished Curtis regen controllers
floating around.
Don't expect to see any earth shattering improvements in lead-acid
batteries. Flooded batteries have not changed a whole lot in the last 140
years. AGMs are pretty much at the peak of their potential.
Any major improvements in batteries are going to come from some other
technology.
Some cars have DC Separate Excited motors (SEPEX) which offers inherent
regen. New SEPEX motors/controllers are somewhat hard to find.
Other technologies that offer inherent regen are BLDC and AC. Making BLDC
motors for typical size cars is rather expensive so you won't see many of
those. AC seems to be the up and coming technology, Victor Tikhonov offers
some Siemens AC setups (Motor + controller with integrated DC-DC, main
contactors and throttle position sensor) at very reasonable rates (for an AC
setup)
http://www.metricmind.com/
Up side is effective regen and a wide operating RPM (up to 10,000 rpm), down
side is slightly higher cost and they pretty much require a high voltage
pack (156-350 volts). They will work at lower voltages (120-144V) but
performance is lacking.
High voltage (200V+) packs pretty much require AGM or sealed batteries (GC
batteries get too heavy), which pretty much requires a battery management
system of some kind ($25 to $60 per battery) and an intelligent charger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The next meeting of the Ventura County chapter of the Electric Auto
Association will be a field trip to visit Phoenix Motorcars, (which is
currently the largest manufacturer of full-function EVs). Expect to see
quite a bit of activity since they have a backlog of orders to fill.
Phoenix Motorcars, Inc.
236 W. Ojai Ave.
Ojai, CA 93023
805-646-7073
We will meet at Phoenix Motorcars at 10am for the tour. Those of us in the
Thousand Oaks area who wish to carpool can meet at 8:45-9:00 at the EV
charging station at the Oaks Mall.
Directions from the carpool location:
-Take the N-Ventura Freeway (101) for 25 miles through Oxnard and Ventura
-Exit 101 onto CA-33 N toward OJAI
-CA-150E will join CA-33N: continue travelling on Ventura Ave (CA-33N &
CA-150E)
-Turn right onto W Ojai Ave to continue on CA-150E (CA-33N will turn left
toward Meiners Oaks)
-Travel about .8 mile, Phoenix Motorcars is on the left. (If you come to
downtown Ojai you've gone about 2 blocks too far)
See you there
Bruce Tucker, Secretary/Treasurer
Ventura County EAA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Jan 2003 at 11:36, gail wrote:
> They do not want a fixer-upper or
> something that will need a lot of maintenance. ...
> I can't really make any recommendations since all of the possibilities are
> rapidly going off the market.
If there's a local organization that's committed to EVs and is willing to work
with the Desert Research Institute to support an EV for them, that's the way
to go. Some examples are Georgia Power's EV program, EVermont,
Connecticut Rideshare (which I think is still active), and the Massachusetts
Clean Cities Coalition program.
These initiatives take upon themselves the risks and service challenges of
using EVs (and, increasingly, NGVs, since EVs are so hard to get). That
way other institutions don't have to worry about an EV diverting attention and
resources away from their original missions.
If you don't have that kind of support available in your area, it's hard to make
any EV recommendation. As Lee pointed out recently, right now we're
seeing the crash of another cycle of EV interest, at least where highway-
capable EVs are concerned. For the moment, we're pretty much back to
where we were in 1989. You can't buy a factory-built highway EV, period.
You can convert one, hire a conversion, or buy a used EV that might or might
not be supported in the future. That's about it.
Without good support, using a highway-capable EV requires deep
commitment. Because there's so little infrastructure compared to gassers,
there can be a fair bit of inconvenience. The organization can't just run it to
the dealer for routine maintenance; they'll have to find an EV mechanic or do
it themselves. When it breaks down on the road, an operator who can't fix it
himself doesn't have much choice but to call for a tow home.
Most drivers and owners are used to, and demand, better support than that.
An organization that has another mission probably doesn't have the time or
patience to deal with this. Their employees have work to do, and any failures
that impede their work will be damnation to the EV.
If they do get an unsupported EV, within a year I fear that it'll be sitting
behind their building, abandoned. I'm not making this up; it's the exact same
pattern followed by EVs applied in similar circumstances during the last
period of EV activity in the late 70s and early 80s. (That one was torpedoed
by cheap gas and the Reagan administration's funding cuts, BTW.) If that
happens, you (or I), as the person who recommended it, will get the blame.
So, if there are no pilot initiatives in your area, I'd say tell them to buy a
Prius. If that won't work (probably not), maybe they should pester Toyota to
bring the Estima "hybrid" van to the US. Or wait for the (ugh) Ford Escape
"hybrid." But given the state of the market, it's hard for me to suggest any
real EV. Sorry.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" wrote:
>
> Other technologies that offer inherent regen are BLDC and AC. Making BLDC
> motors for typical size cars is rather expensive so you won't see many of
> those. AC seems to be the up and coming technology, Victor Tikhonov offers
> some Siemens AC setups (Motor + controller with integrated DC-DC, main
> contactors and throttle position sensor) at very reasonable rates (for an AC
> setup)
> http://www.metricmind.com/
>
> Up side is effective regen and a wide operating RPM (up to 10,000 rpm), down
> side is slightly higher cost and they pretty much require a high voltage
> pack (156-350 volts). They will work at lower voltages (120-144V) but
> performance is lacking.
Speaking of AC, new hardware became available - Siemens
synchronous PM AC motors. I don't have full specs yet. It is
developed for Audi Duo hybrid vehicle
http://www.metricmind.com/photo.htm , look for Audi Duo
It is similar to the synchronous AC 22 kW rated power motor used
for OEM VW City Stromer: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160.html.
I'm reserving one of these to myself to use as a generator for
future range extender project (if ever emerges). 6 diodes 3 phase
rectifier yields pretty clean DC output with only about 5% ripple -
so no inverter really necessary in this application.
Perfect use of this light motor. Granted, it's water cooled.
Also, newer inverters (Simotion) are available too.
Smaller, smarter software, about the same power. These don't
have integrated DC-DC though. I'll update web site soon,
just heads up.
I can get quite a few if there are customers; else, sadly, they
are going into a dumpster (a la GM EV1). Any takers?
Please make up your minds within a few weeks if you can.
As before, older or newer inverters are sold only together with
older or newer motors (any combination is fine). Price
isn't fixed yet, expected to be couple of hundred $$ more
than if older inverter model is ordered. All the hardware
is brand new.
Thanks,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has been a long time since we've heard from you. I presume
you have prospered. If you've been too busy to talk to us, then
probably you have been steadily employed and with plenty of
overtime pay.
I don't recall reading much about battery cooling here and I'm not
sure why. There must be quite a few who have battery
heating problems. Maybe they don't realize they have a problem.
Perhaps they believe that the hotter the batteries the better. If the
temperature reaches 40-50 C where you can measure it, then who
know much hotter it is where it really matters inside the batteries.
It makes my brain tired trying to think about using aquarium coolers
or some other source of chilled water to cool batteries. The chilled water
must be delivered and its flow regulated to each battery. In your case, I
think you have 30 batteries. Then there are issues with clogs, leaks,
pinched hoses, valves, pumps, battery temperature equalization, etc.
Maybe it would just be easier to minimze battery heating.
Remove any insulation and allow for good air circulation around each
battery. Arrrange for motion of the truck to move air past the batteries.
Park the truck in the shade. Give the truck an occasional day off when
the weather is hotter than usual.
I wonder how members of this list from places with extreme summer
temperatures cope with overheated batteries?
Tom Shay
From: "Mitchell Oates" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:12 AM
Subject: Aquarium Chillers
> Hello everyone, long time no post. Glad to see '02 pass away,
> was so busy the past year that the truck has been sitting idle for
> over 9 months. Now hopefully I'll have time to get the beast back on
> the road.
> One item to do is rig up some type of battery cooling. 40 to 50
> C temps in the battery box during daily use in the summer most
> likely contributed to the early demise of most of the pack.
> Along this line, I've found what may be an oddball source for
> battery cooling and perhaps even air conditioning - aquarium
> chillers. My sister's Foster Smith aquarium catalog
> (www.drsfostersmith.com) and several other websites list quite a
> few of these chillers, both thermoelectric and freon based.
> Apparently over the past few years, saltwater and reef style
> aquariums have become quite popular, and require fairly tight temp
> control, including cooling during hot summers.
> The freon based units are either in-line (run water hoses to and
> from the tank), or have a chiller coil at the end of a flexible hose
> that can be dropped in the tank. Their ratings are listed as
> anywhere from 1/8 to 1/2 horsepower. 1/8 HP will supposedly
> achieve a 25 F decrease below ambient on an uninsulated 45
> gallon aquarium, and 10 F decrease on a 75 gallon aquarium. 1/2
> HP will achieve a 25 F decrease on a 230 gallon tank, and a 10 F
> decrease on an 800 gallon tank. If insulation is added (viewing side
> left open), the temperature decreases will go up significantly.
> One of the thermoelectric units is an in-line type, with two
> models rated at 120 W and 240 W, that can be used as either a
> heater or a chiller. Not much info in the catalog, other than a
> recommended flow rate of 8 gpm, 120 W model recommended for
> tanks up to 55 gallon, 240 W model for tanks up to 75 gallon. A
> rough guess is that the 240 W model is equivalent to a 1/8 HP
> freon unit.
> Another of the thermoelectric units is the Cool Works IceProbe.
> This is a small 50 W unit that actually mounts thru a hole in the
> side of the tank and is in direct contact with the water. The
> manufacturer website (www.coolworksinc.com) lists two of these
> units as being able to maintain an uninsulated 10 gallon tank 12 F
> below ambient, and a tank insulated on bottom and 3 sides 20 F
> below ambient. It comes with a wall-wart power converter as it runs
> off of 12V DC. There is a proportional temperature controller
> available, which from the description of it's operation could very well
> be a PWM type controller. While the aquarium chiller model (rated
> for saltwater aquariums) lists for over $100, I found the standard
> model (for drinking water coolers) listed for around $60 depending
> on who was selling them.
> The descriptions above were mainly from the Foster Smith
> catalog. There are many other websites with different brands and
> models of these chillers listed, but the above is a pretty good
> illustration of what's available. While nearly all but the largest units
> would be too small for any type of air conditioning rig, they could
> be useful as far as rigging up an insulated battery box cooling
> system for those in hot climates.
>
> Mitch Oates
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will allow someone to make a mold of this fairing. It was developed by
Vetter/Rifle. It is ABS. I don't know the legal issues concerning copying
a body. I don't even know if it is legal or if a body style is
copyrightable. Lawrence Rhodes....I do however know that this fairing made
an ICE motorcycle get 500mpg. If a gallon of gas is equal to 600 pounds
of batteries... well you can figure it out....
ISTR Craig Vetter commenting that the 500 MPG fairing, while highly
efficient, had problems with cross-winds due to it's tall, fairly
flat sides.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All
I have been trying to find a wiring diagram for an EV Warrior electric bike.
Am hoping that someone on the list may have one they could email to me.
Just got off the phone with one of the few places which sells parts for them
and this is what I got:
Me- Hi, I'm looking for a wiring diagram for an EV Warrior
Them- Yes, we have them, it comes in a manual that sells for $100.00
Me- LOL, That's it then?
Them- Yep, that's it.
Hoping that possibly someone could email me the diagram as a common graphic
file, JPG or GIF.
Thanks in advance for any info that you may be able to provide.
OK, email address, (substitute "@" for "_at_") roylemeur_at_hotmail.com.
(many of these lists strip the email addresses so you can't read them)
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have a visitor.
I will be there for fun, my significant other is there on business. I
should be bored and broke by the 2nd day if I hit the casinos. So if
anyone wants to show off an EV, especially a fast one (aren't there a
few drag cars nearby?) I would love to see what others have done.
I will be in town from 1/19 to 1/24/03. Drop me a note publicly or
privately, or try my cell @603*738*4275...
Even suggestions on non-gambling entertainment would be welcome.
TIA,
Seth
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Solectria citi-van might fit the bill, as it is a pickup/delivery
panel van that is still in production.
It is probably a bit big, but it would be new. I don't know the price.
Try John Rogers at Solectria.
http://www.solectria.com/products/citivan.html
Seth
gail wrote:
>
> The Desert Research Institute, Reno NV is interested in acquiring an
> EV for running errands such as picking up mail and packages. It would
> need to go about 35-40 miles at up to 65 mph and have the capacity of
> a small min-van or station wagon. They do not want a fixer-upper or
> something that will need a lot of maintenance. I could not think of
> anything they could purchase new from any of the major manufacturers
> so would like to hear of cars you might know of that would serve
> their purpose and be within a reasonable transport range, as CA, NV or
> other nearby states. It is quite disheartening to me that I cannot just
> tell them which local dealer could accomodate them. Other than Lectra
> Motors, a Nevada EV manufacturer of many years ago, I don't think there
> have been any commercially available vehicles here except the NEVs.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions. I would love to have an EV in use at DRI
> but I can't really make any recommendations since all of the possibilities
> are rapidly going off the market.
>
> Gail
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
Many of the low cost wall plugs now have universal input (up to 265Vac).
Most of them are designed with TOPSWITCHs. I see no reason why you could
not use on of these with a DC input? Up to 350Vdc no problem with
reverse polarity
protection.
3.3V to 300V? We'll, no suggestions there!
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Speaking of DC-DC:
Has anyone seen a good source for 300V->5V low power (4...5W) DC-DC
converters? I also want to step up 3.3V to 300V. Any recommendations?
Victor
Seth wrote:
I have had good luck with the bipolar DC-DCs from www.astrodyne.com. I
don't use them for battery charging, and I don't normally use their
AC-DC onverters, but the website is worth a look. I also just stumbled
upon (and will buy a few) 18-75VDC input DC-DCs from www.aconinc.com for
a wide input range motor control I am working on.
Seth
1sclunn wrote:
you need 14.8v not 12 v otherwise I think it would . Ive seen 15v + -
dc/dc converters that put out 2 amps for less that $10 supples
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: A super-dumb question about charging 12V batteries wired in
seri
--
--- End Message ---
