EV Digest 2553
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) LiIon purchase
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers)
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Worley BMS
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Ice Skating in Wonderland
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: E-Meter/Link10 question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Requesting NiZn Summary
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) old Rabbit for conversion in MA
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Requesting NiZn Summary, an" Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EVs and power plants
by "Mitchell Oates" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) FW: SF EV (and Hybrid) parade Saturday
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: SF NBEAA February meeting (Feb 8, 2003, 10am-12noon) announcement
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) 20 minute charge to 80%
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Tradin Post Trucks
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Ice Skating in Wonderland
by gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: 20 minute charge to 80% - OT I suppose
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
by Mason Convey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Range, Battery Heaters, etc...
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Automakers are the next tobacco
by Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if this wouldn't be doable with a G-van like mine with an upgraded
(Ni-Cad or ?) battery pack. Its a `91 1 Ton Chevy (heck for stout drive train
and hydroboost brakes) and the motor is a Nelco sep-ex rated @ 60 Hp cont
(IIRC) that was originally designed for trolleys, according to the Nelco
website. Might need to upgrade the motor cooling a bit, but ? BTW, G-Vans, at
least mine also have re-gen that can be switched on and off. If you end up
building a truck with a huge batt pack, I do have an extra Chloride
Electronetworks charger that i would consider selling. Selectable for up to
480 V input and at least 220 VDC output (my g-van is currently 216 pack
voltage), microprosser controlled and its an outdoor weather tight model.
David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 11:34, Paul G wrote:
> Peter wrote:
> >According to Victor's website his biggest system (the WS14) can NOT
> >produce double it's continuous power under ANY circumstances. This is a
> >limitation of the controller. Maximum power output is only 78kw (the
> >same for all of his motors), the continuous output from the WS14 is
> >45kw.
>
> Well, the AC systems are listed as 282 amps peak. I based my ideas on
> a 336v system. I'm looking at *input* power to the system, to compare
> to the known *input* power of the Red Beastie when it was on the west
> coast. Its certainly not fair to compare the output power of an AC
> system to the input power of a DC system!
>
> Red Beastie:
> Weight 5330lbs
> Input power 54kW
> Power/weight 44.9 kg/kW
I have been comparing OUTPUT power to output power. As I recall the Red
Beastie originally had a 600 amp controller (though it might have
already had the 1200 amp) with a 120V buddy paired pack. Assuming the
pack sags to 110V when sourcing 600 amps (they are buddy paired after
all) that works out to 66kw of input power. Where did you get 54kw
from?
Since he specifically asked about hauling a trailer that sets the
minimum consideration. You need to compare the Red Beastie hauling a
trailer (10,500lbs combined weight) to this proposed vehicle/trailer
(17,000lbs)
>
> Now the peak input power of the AC system would be 94.7kW at 336
> volts. This means that the power to weight ratio would match the Red
> Beastie if the resulting Pickup weighed 9347lbs.
>
That's about right, 82-83% efficient at that power level works out to
78.4kw. Just like they have posted.
Personally I think comparing output power is better since both systems
don't have identical efficiency (AC has a slight edge, 2-3%)
> I have a feeling it would work based on those numbers. If you want
> fast you don't start with a full size Pickup, and then threaten to
> drag a large trailer. John did tow with his Red Beastie, a large
> trailer with the White Zombie and support equipment, down I-5 to
> Woodburn. So I think that looking at his input power to weight ratio
> is a good starting point.
>
I believe that by the time he started hauling the trailer around he had
the Raptor 1200 installed (I may be wrong)
However it's probably safe to say that the pack could only source about
80kw.
> Anyway, with that kind of voltage target it seems a single string of
> 8v GC batteries would work out nicely, say 40 of them for about
> 2500lbs. Rearranged as a double string at 160v they would complain
> about being asked for 600 amps (1200 amp controller), it seems that
> 8v GC batteries don't like anything over about 350 amps.
This is very true, that's why I was basing my considerations on using 6V
batteries, T-105 or T-125 equivelents. As well as keeping Optima's in
the back of my mind.
Motors and controllers aren't the only limiting factor in this case.
Batteries are also important and this might require AGMs or better just
to get the power need by whichever controller.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
If anyone seriously consider purchasing Thunder-sky 100 Ah LiIon cells,
please contact me off list for possible group purchase. Note: at this
point you come up with BMS solution on your own.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is nice. I could use a good Unimog. get one with the tilting bed and
instant conversion.
rumble rumble rumble in my 12000 lb vehicle <with batteries> to work.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tim Clevenger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:19 PM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers)
> >
> >
> >>From�:� "Harris, Lawrence"
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> � To�:�
> >> "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> �
> >>Subject�:� RE: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking
> >taxpayers) �
> >>Date�:� Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:48:09 -0500 �
> >>
> >>Anybody else catch the little blurb on (I think) CNN last
> >night about a tax
> >>break being considered for purchasers of SUV's and other
> >large expensive
> >>cars?� I wonder if this is related.
> >
> >Hi Lawrence,
> >
> >I don't know if it's the same story, but I remember hearing
> >about a tax
> >break for businesses who need >8,000 lb. GVWR pickups for
> >their businesses.
> >Due to a loophole, large SUV's also meet this the same
> >guidelines, so people
> >are starting "businesses" solely for the purpose of getting
> >tax breaks on
> >giant SUV's.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 14:52, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> Victor you brought money into it. I started out by saying that a single
Fine, let's end on this. I don't believe the list benefits
from knowing who said what first.
As of pricing, correct, about $8k each if two are purchased.
Please keep in mind when comparing, that 120A continuous/180A 3 min
DC-DC (combined for both inverters), all the contactors (include
reverse ones for DC system for fair functionality comparison
whether use electrical reverse or not), throttle pots,
interface harness, motor and inverter power cables are all
included in this price.
Ah, forgot to mention, 10 years warranty no matter how you abuse it.
Please let me know what DC system will get close to this, I wonder.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 14:58, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> John,
>
> Just give me the specs for your truck (gear ratios, loaded and
> unloaded weight, wheel diameter and battery choice) and I will
> simulate acceleration on flat, on ramp, gradeability on given
> slope, max speed, etc.
>
> Otherwise performance discussion it's a bandwidth waste.
>
Capital idea, let's put this to rest.
The base model 2003 F250 Superduty weighs 5267lb and comes with a V8.
Let's assume the V8 + etc weighs 667 lbs (for simple math). That makes
the glider weigh about 4600 lbs. Add 2440 lbs of batteries, what ever
your motor/controller/etc. weigh and another 500 lbs for batteries
racks, cables, etc. That comes out to 7540lbs plus you
motor/controller/etc (300lbs?)
Plus 10,000lbs for the trailer (I believe that was the figure).
2440 lbs gives you 240V worth of T-105 batteries. Since 240V is going
to hamper your systems performance so you could also figure it using
360V worth of buddy paired YTs. That comes out to 2700lbs or 260 lbs
heavier.
Can you model it with dual motors also? Just out of curiosity.
Oh yeah tires and gear ratios.
Tires = 235/85R16
Gear ratio
1st 5.72
2nd 2.94
3rd 1.61
4th 1
5th 0.76
I believe the final drive is a 4.1:1 with an optional 4.3:1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> The base model 2003 F250 Superduty weighs 5267lb and comes with a V8.
> Let's assume the V8 + etc weighs 667 lbs (for simple math). That makes
> the glider weigh about 4600 lbs. Add 2440 lbs of batteries, what ever
> your motor/controller/etc. weigh and another 500 lbs for batteries
> racks, cables, etc. That comes out to 7540lbs plus you
> motor/controller/etc (300lbs?)
>
> Plus 10,000lbs for the trailer (I believe that was the figure).
So, 8000 kg roughly.
> 2440 lbs gives you 240V worth of T-105 batteries. Since 240V is going
> to hamper your systems performance so you could also figure it using
> 360V worth of buddy paired YTs. That comes out to 2700lbs or 260 lbs
> heavier.
>
> Can you model it with dual motors also? Just out of curiosity.
I don't know how to do it, I'll ask the expert. Will do for one
motor; we can roughly estimate dual setup from there.
> Oh yeah tires and gear ratios.
> Tires = 235/85R16
Wheel radius in meters please.
> Gear ratio
> 1st 5.72
> 2nd 2.94
> 3rd 1.61
> 4th 1
> 5th 0.76
>
> I believe the final drive is a 4.1:1 with an optional 4.3:1
Any idea of C_d and frontal area (m^2)?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From�:� David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> � To�:�
[EMAIL PROTECTED] �
Subject�:� RE: With Friends Like These. . . �
Date�:� Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:46:09 -0800 (PST) �
Is this still true if all the cars made 1/10 the pollution they do
now? This is a viable concern, as doesn't Toyota claim the Prius
makes only 10% of the smog of a regular car?
Only if they made 1/10 the pollution continuously for the life of the car.
We all know that ICE cars are cleanest the day they roll off the assembly
line. After that, wear on the parts, clogged/disabled/rusted emission
controls and lack of maintenance doom ICE cars to produce more pollution.
While smog checks exist to fix this, they never require the vehicle to be as
clean as when it was built.
Case in point: my '96 Ranger with 113,000 miles just passed the California
smog check. While it produced half to 1/3 of the "average" emissions of
that model according to the printout, the "fail" point is between 15 and 30
times the "average" shown. As these vehicles age, they start working their
way toward that point until they finally fail. The owner then makes a minor
repair that brings the vehicle to just under the fail point, and the process
continues. Since the smog check is every two years, those nasty smoking
vehicles that produce 1,000 times the pollution of a new car can run for up
to 2 years that way. (There are also exceptions for "financial hardship"
that can keep that car running for long after it fails.)
An EV, on the other hand, only produces as much pollution as the sources
that fuel it. An EV's "total pollution" is a function of its
efficiency--the more juice it uses, the more pollution is produced.
However, for an EV to produce 10 times the pollution, it would have to be
1/10 as efficient, which would show up as a massive reduction in range (and
possible motor/battery overheating.)
Tim
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: RE: With Friends Like These. . .
to paraphrase "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
"......but let's face facts. It's like politics. The
conservatives weakness is related to a natural tendency to be
open-minded and thoughtful. They like to hear all viewpoints before coming
to a considered conclusion. They tend to debate our ideas in a rational
way.
It's a cakewalk for the radical left to counter that. They just herd
everybody into one place. Their leaders play on the crowd's emotions and
outrage. They teach them the words and get them all to shout as loudly as
they can. No matter if some of them start off not entirely agreeing; often
those are the loudest ones. It works.......
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John, Peter and All,
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > With my commute in my Sparrow, regen would
> probably make it MUCH easier on
> > my pack. (The 1 mile downhill just before work
> would help a lot!)
> > I've been tempted to figure out just how hard it
> would be to convert my
> > Sparrow to AC....
A better, less costly would be 1 or 2 E-teks
with a Sevcon controller with regen, controller bypass
switch gives you great eff, good power at under
$1,100.
90% eff for the motors and 95% eff for the
controller will be about the same eff as an AC unit
would. Add regen and buddy pair the largest ni-cads
you can fit in it and may do what range you need John.
No cold weather problems either.
There are higher voltage, amp Sevcon controllers
too for 2 e-teks in series or other PM motors with
regen. Or $5k+ for AC.
jerry dycus
> >
>
> Sounds like fun. If you do decide to do it I might
> be interested in
> your old controller.
>
> I want AC for my next project but I just can't
> afford it (even with
> Victor being generous), especially since I already
> have a big GE motor.
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few people asked off list about Worley LiIon BMS.
Here is some info:
http://www.worley.com.au/wecs/PROTECTION-SYSTEM7.pdf
http://www.worley.com.au/wecs/PROTECTION-SYSTEM32.pdf
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 17:11, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > The base model 2003 F250 Superduty weighs 5267lb and comes with a V8.
> > Let's assume the V8 + etc weighs 667 lbs (for simple math). That makes
> > the glider weigh about 4600 lbs. Add 2440 lbs of batteries, what ever
> > your motor/controller/etc. weigh and another 500 lbs for batteries
> > racks, cables, etc. That comes out to 7540lbs plus you
> > motor/controller/etc (300lbs?)
> >
> > Plus 10,000lbs for the trailer (I believe that was the figure).
>
> So, 8000 kg roughly.
>
> > 2440 lbs gives you 240V worth of T-105 batteries. Since 240V is going
> > to hamper your systems performance so you could also figure it using
> > 360V worth of buddy paired YTs. That comes out to 2700lbs or 260 lbs
> > heavier.
> >
> > Can you model it with dual motors also? Just out of curiosity.
>
> I don't know how to do it, I'll ask the expert. Will do for one
> motor; we can roughly estimate dual setup from there.
>
> > Oh yeah tires and gear ratios.
> > Tires = 235/85R16
>
> Wheel radius in meters please.
Assuming my calculations are correct that works out to a radius of
38.82cm
>
> > Gear ratio
> > 1st 5.72
> > 2nd 2.94
> > 3rd 1.61
> > 4th 1
> > 5th 0.76
> >
> > I believe the final drive is a 4.1:1 with an optional 4.3:1
>
> Any idea of C_d and frontal area (m^2)?
>
Cd is probably about 0.44, and roughly 35,665 Cm^2
which comes out to 3.5665 m^2. That sound about right?
Truck is 76.3" high by 79.9" wide and has 8.1" ground clearance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I continue to love driving my EV, more all the time in fact.
Finding myself now living in "Wonderland", just makes it all the better.
Wonderland is the original name given to the Yellowstone Park area,
before it became widely known as Yellowstone. As Wonderland is now
experiencing a cold spell, I thought I would investigate the reports
I had read in the Weekly of people ice skating in a local park, on a
backwater lagoon of the Yellowstone River. It's been snowing fairly
hard here lately, and after shoveling my sidewalk, I had made some huge
snowpiles in between my EV and the snowpacked streets of Livingston.
--------------
I would like to quickly note that what has put in a writing mood
is the great messages I've been receiving from John Wayland lately. A
recent one entitled: "60 Miles per day in Blue Meanie!" had me at times
rolling on the floor in laughter, and at other times smiling in a knowing
way as I can see that John has a love affair with his Blue Meanie that is
very similar to that which I have for my EV Ghia, the trusty little feller.
I would like to dedicate the ice skating portion of this post to Gail in
Las Vegas, where it's likely a hundred degrees right now. :)
--------------
As I pulled the EV out into the deep snow, it made that incredible
low frequency crunching sound that can only be heard in a silent car.
Since it took a considerable amount of power just to move, my old analog
controller took on the smoothness of an MPC. After running the heater for
a minute, while I took off my extra coats (it's in the low teens), I
punched through the wall of snow and out onto the snowpacked streets. I
was feeling warm then and so turned off the heat, but with how cold it was
out, the windshield immediately started to fog up. No problem in an EV,
the instant electric heat had it cleared up in about 2 seconds.
I turned down the hill and crossed Lewis Street, then Clark Street
after that. Making a right turn, I started down Geyser Street toward
downtown. Ever since I installed a capacitor across my pot box, and
invested in some expensive tires imported from Holland, I've not laid an
inch of rubber. It accelerates at my traction limit and not beyond, great
for still having full traction in the snow, with the just-like-new, never
smoked, tires. After passing the main part of town and getting into the
fancy victorian area, I made a turn on Yellowstone, and started down toward
Sacajawea Park.
There is a scenic lagoon, fed by the river, that makes a nice
duck pond and fishing hole in the summer and freezes in the winter for great
ice skating. I pulled the EV Ghia off the main road and into a trackless
expanse of deep snow nearby. I could hear the roar of the river and had to
take a quick walk over to the steaming Y-Stone, and watch it cascade past
framed by bright snowy banks. As I was getting my skates and stuff out of
the car, a pickup pulled in just beyond me and got quite stuck. I then
noticed that my car was pointing up hill, "oh well I could always back out
on my tracks if I need to". He went back and forth, lots of tire spinning
and sliding around sideways, but finally got back out on the main road and
continued on his drive through the snow covered park.
I went over to a small shelter on the bank of the lagoon and put
on my skates. I felt pretty wobbly on them as I hadn't done any skating
since years before while visiting Gail. Using muscles that I hadn't used
for years would be tough, but I took a swig of Cabernet Savignon that I
had put in a small "Think Mobility" water bottle and headed out onto the
frozen pond. It was great! Gliding effortlessly over the light powdery
snow made me feel like I was skiing without skiis, with only the sound of
steel on ice like fine cutlery, giving away the secret to my effortless
travel. The scenery around the area is great, looking back from where I came,
I could see the Little Feller waiting for me from where he was parked under
huge Cottonwoods along the shore. A beautiful bridge, nice homes, and the
natural landscaping of the river's floodplain completed the wintery scene.
Side stepping through a long and graceful turn, it was easy to loose track
of speed while traveling over the featureless snow, but crossing the occasional
tracks of a pedestrian made the high speed suddenly obvious as they went
sweeping past.
When it was time to leave, my memories returned to the guy who had
gotten stuck in the snow and I was anxious to give my EV the same test. I
remembered how my car had ground to a hault, as it was pushing through the
snow and wanted to see how it would continue on that path from a dead stop,
while going up the gentle hill. Like I said, the analog controller feels
pretty smooth when you're doing some work like this, but it's still an analog
controller, so it took off pretty abuptly. With no wheel spin, the car lunged
ahead, thanks to it's rear biased weight distribution, and driving around,
conquering, the area where the big feller had gotten stuck was great fun for
the Little Feller!
My battery pack is chilled into the low teens, but it performed
marvelously. After parking it back in the EV shop, I wanted to check my motor
to see how ~warm it had gotten. I'd say it had warmed clear up into the 20's
or so, after that drive. It's practically a superconductor at these temps!
Seeya,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frequency travels very accurately across a transformer or optical barrier.
It can be a very accurate way of transmitting a current reading across an
isolation barrier.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: E-Meter/Link10 question
> I will find out for you for sure. My guess, with Brusa's safety in
> mind, since the shunt is on the traction pack but display is powered
> by 12V car system, they must be isolated from each other.
>
> Victor
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Victor,
> >
> > Are the shunts and their boards available without the display?
> > Is the pulse output isolated from the measured current?
> >
> > thanks,
> > Steve
> >
> > In a message dated 1/22/2003 3:34:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Victor
Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > >Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > >> Lets also remeber that there ARE 1000 amp e-meters and KwHr meters
out
> > >> there.
> > >
> > >One of them is Brusa Ah meter for which the shunt can be made to order
> > >for any (reasonable) current. You get true reading on the display.
> > >Those are active shunts (conversion PCB sits right on the shunt It
> > >converts the current to a frequency and remote display just counts).
> > >Few shunts are shown here:
> > >http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_messgeraete127.htm
> > >
> > ><Plug>
> > >They are offered on my site.
> > ><Unplug>
> > >
> > >Victor
> > >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted....
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred whitridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:26 AM
Subject: Requesting NiZn Summary
> Rich, Joe, Sheer:
>
> Any chance you could summarize what your findings are in NiZn? I have
laboriously tried to search past posts but only have an
> incomplete picture.
It is too early to summarize the findings. We are still discovering more
questions than answers.
> Joe: I'd be most interested in hearing a description of your charge and
discharge rig for the Evercel you are beating to death. I
> saw somewhere you are discharigning at 48 amps down to a certain voltage.
Is it really constant amperage or is it a fixed
> resistor?
Basically constant current. The NiChrome that I use for the source follower
has a slight (~4%) increase in resistance in the first minute after the load
is energized but it holds within a couple percent from 15 volts down to 8
volts.
> What is the charge current and termination algorithm you are using?
I use a Todd PC50 turned down to ~40 amps. It bulk charges up to about 13.5
volts and then taper down to about 4 amps when the battery gets full. There
is a TWC with a series resistor across a diode in the positive wire from the
Todd to the contactor to provide a constant current when the battery voltage
exceeds the Todd voltage. This provides the trickle at the end of charge. I
have used a fixed charge capacity beginning at cycle 44. The fixed value is
adjusted daily to track the discharge capacity.
> I've seen your plotted data on the manzanitamicro
> site and wonder what the temperature profile looks like?
Neglible temperature change after the battery broke in on cycle 42.
> Are you temperature limited on when you can start the charge?
Temperature has not been a problem once they broke in on cycle 42.
> Thanks,
> Fred
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A guy in my town put a note on my Rabbit conversion saying that he has
a 1983 Rabbit with a broken automatic transmission that he might be
willing to part with cheaply if someone has an interest in converting
it or using it for parts. He says it is an excellent condition -- I
haven't seen it myself. He didn't name a price, but he mainly seemed
interested in finding it a good home.
If you're interested, call him directly: John at 781-784-5262
Also I have an Interstate U1450 battery (same as U.S. EV-145) with a
melted post. About 1/4" of the post is left. It has about 100 cycles
on it, but it's probably somewhat sulfated by now, because I've been
letting it sit around in the cold. You can have it for free if you
pick it up in Sharon, MA.
Ken
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > I would love to have regen when I think about going over the
hill
> > to Stinson Beach, about 20 miles one way from my
home-on-the-hill
> > in Larkspur. The top of the BIG hill is probably about
800-1000
> > feet up from the sea-level realm of Mill Valley.
>
> It's not really practical to do regen with a conventional
Advanced DC
> series motor and Curtis PWM controller. However, that doesn't
mean you
> can't have regen.
>
> One solution is to use a separate generator or alternator for
regen. A
> standard automotive alternator can generate over 120vdc if you
spin it
> fast enough. There are also lots of surplus 120vdc PM treadmill
motors
> that could generate up to 200vdc at 20-30 amps for short
periods of
> time.
>
> The main challenge is in finding a good place to couple such a
generator
> or alternator to the drive train. It's fairly easy if your
motor has a
> shaft on the back end.
Yes, we looked at the generator idea some years ago, but there is
no tailshaft on my 8" ADC. Probably the best I could do in DC
land is to buy a Kostov with interpoles and a SEPex controller.
I've driven one of those and the regen is very nice. However,
I'm even moving away from this idea, liking AC a lot more. BUT,
what I have now is bought and paid for and works. I'll just
continue to heat up my brakes till I get to a point where I have
the knowledge and finances to make an AC drive happen, and oh,
keep wishing upon a regen star... :-)
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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----- Original Message -----
From: fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:26 AM
Subject: Requesting NiZn Summary
> Rich, Joe, Sheer:
>
> Any chance you could summarize what your findings are in NiZn? I have
laboriously tried to search past posts but only have an
> incomplete picture.
>
> Joe: I'd be most interested in hearing a description of your charge and
discharge rig for the Evercel you are beating to death. I
> saw somewhere you are discharigning at 48 amps down to a certain voltage.
Is it really constant amperage or is it a fixed
> resistor? What is the charge current and termination algorithm you are
using? I've seen your plotted data on the manzanitamicro
> site and wonder what the temperature profile looks like? Are you
temperature limited on when you can start the charge?
>
> Rich: What's the status of the PFC chargers to handle a NiZn algorithm?
I understand they will eventually get a "brain" and have
> knobs and DIP's to twiddle in the meantime...
>
> Sheer: You had some interesting stuff a while back on voltage sag and
temperature which I can't seem to find. What's the driving
> like? How many cycles do you have? How's the capacity held up?
>
> I visited the company last week and was impressed with the candor and the
quality of the folks I met. They have apparently
> handbuilt a number of MB's in the lab in China and cycled these to their
satisfaction. Now they are doing a run on their
> production line and once they are happy with these, they expect to begin
volume production and shipment at the end of March time
> frame. The company looks to me as if they will be around for the long
pull: they have $8mm of cash on the balance sheet, even
> after buying 100% of the Chinese venture. I remain keenly interested in
getting a set for my VW Cabrio.
>
> Thanks,
> Fred
>
Hi Fred, an' EVerybody;
Ah! Some good questions about the Evercells. Need to be answered Hope
yur right that they are here for the long pull, enough to get some new cells
from them. Yes I would be interested in a buncha batteries for a Rabbit or ,
Heavens! Something newer. My Sentra, I had in mind, although it is rather
weighty, weighed it up at my friendly junkyard @ 2700 lbs as a gas.
Weeeell, I DID have a toolbox, and my RR bag aboard, and some other crap, so
car could be 2600? Maybe the two door Sentra, 94 is a tad lighter? But with
EVercells weight may not be so much a factor? Like a 700 lb pack, to run it?
Instead of 1400 lbs in a Rabbit.
Had a guy , REALLY interested in EV's at the Car Parts Store I trade
with, sed he had a Saturn, and asked if it would be a good choce, as he sed
it had plastic body panels? Would be lite? Havent we got some Saturn Guyz on
the List? Good Choice? Thinking of what-shall-I-convert, next, go round?
Oh yeah, Fred. Did Evercell clue you in on charging aloghrithms? Can a
PFC -20 be trained to do it? I guess Rich is working on this one. No more
Bad Boyz? I presume, yu hate to go through a learning curve on such a pricy
pack? But if they shape up, lets get a volume order going for the East
Coast.
Seeya
Bob.....in frozen CT below 0 tonite they sed. Phooy! My batteries HATE
it!
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I quite agree with William. Before Enron was found out, there
was a constant stream of announcements in the business section
of the local paper of this or that energy company planning to build
new power plants in this area (Southeast US). Since Enron has
fallen apart, it has been a constant stream of announcements of
this or that energy company cancelling the contracts for these new
plants, citing "excess capacity and depressed prices (read return
to sane levels) for electricity".
There's also the common sense aspect to emissions controls.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it would be a
heck of a lot easier to control emissions at a few hundred power
plants, where you have a dedicated staff that is paid to monitor and
maintain equipment 24/7, than it would be to control emissions on
20 million individual vehicles (the number of EV's that William
states the CA power grid could support) with only a yearly
inspection by a mechanic at a local garage that probably doesn't
even understand how an exhaust gas analyzer works.
Besides, the power plants are going to be there, whether we
drive EV's or not. Discounting gasoline for transportation, this
country runs on electricity for nearly everything else. With our
standard of living and technology, it's become an essential service.
You can make the out-of-pocket argument also. For power plant
emissions controls, the cost is spread over millions of customers
such that each individual would only have a couple of dollars
tacked onto their bill every month. For individual vehicles, at least
in my state (NC), we're looking at the cost of a yearly inspection
going from $9 per vehicle to nearly $40 per vehicle for emissions
testing, with the possibility of a several hundred dollar repair bill
and another $40 inspection if the vehicle doesn't pass on the first
try. And if the vehicle can't be made to pass, you're looking at
having to buy a new vehicle or doing without.
The efficiency studies between EV's and gas cars that are still
quoted are years old now and contained some bad assumptions to
begin with. Such as assuming that fuel distribution from the
refineries to your gas tank was nearly 100% efficient - X number of
gallons left the refinery and and X number of gallons made it into
everyone's cars. It didn't take into account the energy and other
costs associated with transporting the fuel to point-of-use, or the
electrical energy used by all these convenience stores and gas
stations to operate the business or the gas pumps. Also, the
assumption that all power plants were at best 35% efficient is now
rather dated, with cogeneration and thermal recovery pushing some
power plants to upwards of 60% thermal efficiency.
Mitch Oates
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Forwarding from Tom about last Saturday's EV participation.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:20 AM
To: Ed Thorpe
Subject: SF EV (and Hybrid) parade Saturday
If you feel like forwarding this to the EV list,
I don't seem to be able to post. If you
think it is appropriate. I think some would
enjoy all the EV pictures.
On Jan 18, 2003, to Celebrate MLK day, there
were about 10 blocks of solid Hybrids and EV's parading
around SF Saturday as part of the Environmentalists
Against the War Protest. :-)
http://tofu.findpage.com/photos/show/antibush/20030118/CIMG0038.JPG
Press Slideshow for the handsfree mode, or click on the picture to zoom in
at the point you selected.
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The February meeting of the North Bay Chapter of the Electric
Auto
Association will be held on Saturday February 8th from 10am - 12
noon
at Harmony Farm Supply and Nursery in Sebastopol.
Our featured speaker will be David Henry, co-owner and
co-founder, in 1980,
of Harmony Farm Supply. Originally a supplier of organic
fertilizers,
ecological pest controls and IPM (Integrated Pest Management)
monitoring
tools, Harmony Farm now offers a wide range of organic farming
and
gardening products and supplies. They moved to their current
location
in 1990. They also offer complete solar and wind electric system
design,
supply and coordination of installation for both grid tied and
off grid
systems and are generating about 85% of their electricity from a
35,000 watt photovoltaic array on their main building.
David Henry will tell some of the history and aims of Harmony
Farms and
will show and describe their large grid-tied PV system, including
how
their 50,000 watt/hr battery system helped get them through 5
days of
power outage in December, and outline the advantages of solar
power.
Location:
Harmony Farm Supply and Nursery,
3244 Hwy. 116 North,
Sebastopol, CA 95472
Date: 8th February from 10am-12 noon
Contact: David Henry
Tel: 707 823-9125 x14
Web site: http://www.harmonyfarm.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Driving directions:
Harmony Farm Supply is located on the West side of I-116
(Gravenstein Highway), just North of the intersection of
Graton Road and Frei Road, about 4 miles North of Sebastopol
downtown. From 101, take Guerneville Road heading West,
until reaching the T-junction at I-116. Turn left and
Harmony farm is less than a mile on the right hand side.
Further directions at: http://www.harmonyfarm.com/HFSmap.jpg
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it? Lawrence Rhodes....
http://www.aerovironment.com/news/news-archive/news-fordevfastchrg.html
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They also didn't return my e-mail from weeks/months ago.
But... I'm still dreaming of a new(er) truck, and following the F250
thread with interest.
Shelton, John D. AW2 wrote:
> > I recall that there are a couple Ford Ranger EV gliders for
> > sale on the Trading Post though I haven't checked lately.
> > They are pretty cheap so I'm wondering why they have been
> > there so long.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I would suspect it's because they are in Canada. $2,000 for a gutted
> glider, plus $1,000(?) shipping possibly more since they can't drive
> them on/off the truck, plus the hassles of getting them back into the
> states, etc.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
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John,
Thanks for the memories. Your story reminds me very much of learning to
ice skate on ponds, sloughs and lakes in Canada. It has been a long time
since I have skated outdoors on natural ice covered with a layer of snow.
You made me homesick. To skate now I throw on my backpack and ride my
E-bike in about 60 degree weather to an elegant indoor ice studio.
I wonder if an EV would function in the -40 degree temperatures we had
in Alberta when I was going to school. My family had to plug the ICE in
or it wouldn't start. Sometimes I could not practice my skating in the
morning before school because the ice was too hard, my blades would just
slip around rather than melting the ice to allow gliding. I am thinking
back to the frozen nose, frozen earlobes, frozen toes.... not sure I
would want to tool around in my Citicar under those conditions. :)
A lovely story John. How are you doing on your double Axel? And did you
take pictures for next years Christmas cards?
Gail
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Hi Lawrence and all
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it? Lawrence
> Rhodes....
>
http://www.aerovironment.com/news/news-archive/news-fordevfastchrg.html
Guess would be there's more fast money to be made in their UAV
products?
Lock
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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Fast-charging is still alive and well... but most of it is being done
at the industry level, rather than with on-road/public
applications. In other words, forklift, material handling, airport
ground support, NEV, marine, and transit applications. You may not
hear much about it, but it's out there. Example: www.etecevs.com
> This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it?
-~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-
website. http://www.1opossum.com
email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AOL Messenger. mtnbikeAZ
Yahoo! Messenger. mtnbike_az
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Well, since I finally got the battery heaters in my Sparrow working
properly this last weekend, today I make a short run (1 mile), charged the
car again, and tried a longer run.
(Note: Batteries are holding at around 85 deg F when the car is parked)
Range sucks. Voltage plummeted abruptly at around 16 miles. At 17 miles I
was able to pull into Island Recycling and they let me plug in to charge
for a while. (I had 6 miles to go to get home.) I used to regularly go 27
miles.
Question: Since this pack has been sitting with little use for a couple of
months (always kept charged! Usually with a float charge as well.) Do I
need to run a set of break-in cycles again? Would this likely help restore
my range?
Or is this pack just shot?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Its been discussed for quite a while elsewhere but it bears repeating:
Tobacco companies, for 50 years were able to stave off lawsuits. No one
thought that the public would ever stick it to them for the health risks
associated with this behaivor. But now it is happening. And it is
spreading. The tobacco company payouts are huge to the point of
absurdity.
Automobile exhaust is somewhat less healthful than second hand (or even
first hand) cigarette smoke. If you want proof, just spend fifteen
minutes in a closed garage with a smoker (or three), and then with a
running automobile and have the forensic MD compare the results.
So, at some future date, the trial lawyers will have their way with the
automakers, and probably also attempt to attach the oil companies. It
will probably not happen until sometime after I have reached my retirement
age, but if things continue on their current path then it is highly
likely.
The automakers know this, and it is one reason why they are dropping the
EV technologies and blaming the consumer. This is one defense to the
inevitable lawsuits.
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ -----@`---(=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
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