EV Digest 2568
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery replacement time!
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Measuring Current
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery replacement time!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 75Ah Optima
by "Yoder, Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A.C. relays
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: 75Ah Optima
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) dv/dt=0
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 75Ah Optima
by "Yoder, Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 75Ah Optima
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Measuring Current
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Jan 14 AutoWeek Online column
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVLN(%GM's Garter Belt Hybrid%)
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Optima/Exide Battery Source
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
by Jon Knepher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Fw: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: EVLN(%GM's Garter Belt Hybrid%)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Trojan Batteries
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Trojan Batteries
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: A.C. relays
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Chris has asked that people contact him off line
on this thread as to not clutter the list bandwidth.
I think it is better to POST your comments on this
thread to the List and cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
instead.
This will give Chris his requested info, and it will
share information for other ex-production EV drivers
that 'have-to' switch to conversions. The information
will also be on the searchable archives for use again
and again.
...
Chris,
I read you strongly dislike wet-cells because of your
previous experience.
IMHO: your problem is your light dimmer charger. When
compared to a PFC charger, light dimmer chargers are crap.
I feel I can say this as I have extensive experience
with chargers, charging, and wet-cell batts.
Many people have problems setting a light-dimmer
charger correctly. If it isn't set correctly a
light dimmer charger can cook their batteries,
spray electrolyte, and use excessive water.
So, I would strongly recommend that you look at
replacing your charger with a PFC that:
-does not use as much water,
-does not cook batteries, cables, cords, outlets,
and breakers,
-and puts more power from the outlet into the pack =
a faster charge (a PFC is a more efficient charger).
Check http://manzanitamicro.com for prices and
availability (Newbies: no, I am not on the take).
There is the lower priced PFC-20 and the full power
PFC-50. I have proven both work fine off an AVCON
(something a light-dimmer or Zivan can't do). An
AVCON adaptor is available on the
http://eaaev.org merchandise page.
If you need to justify the cost of a PFC, look at
the fact that they are like having two chargers in
one.
Before the PFC, I had to buy both a 120VAC and a
220VC Zivan charger to be able to charge of either
voltage (see http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/ )
The PFC can run from 90 to 240 VAC. One PFC charger
operates over the voltage range of two chargers.
The charge current is adjustable. I really like this
feature. I can dial-in what charge current I want.
I use the Cruising Equipment Emeter in my dash to
see the charge current going into my pack.
If you diddled with the settings of a light dimmer
charger, you chance screwing yourself. A Zivan does
not have a knob to adjust the charge current on the
fly (the PFC does).
At a public charging site, I can crank the charge
current up for a fast charge time.
If I am over at a friend's house or at work where I
might be sharing a breaker, I can turn the current
down to prevent from tipping the breaker.
I suggest you pull your batteries, neutralize all the
light dimmer electrolyte spray off your racks, put
new batts in, and spend some money for a nice
PFC charger (they are light, clean, efficient and
easy to use).
...
I do not mind watering my pack (even less so, now that
the PFC charger uses less water). It is a monthly task
that only takes 15 minutes + the other half an hour
from people stopping by to ask, "Is that Electric?".
I start off by fully charging my batteries and then
unplugging the charger from the AC.
I clean the tops of the batteries with a glass cleaner
(a windex knock off). Not only does this keep leakage
current down but the cleaner is a mild base to offset
the acid.
I place a paper towel down near the pack, and place
a third of my caps on it. Using a plastic garden sprayer
that is dedicated to distilled water and has the spray tip
removed so it now squirts, I water the cells to the top
ring with distilled water, and move the caps from the
next set to be watered to the cells that have been
watered. With all the caps back on, I clean the tops of
the batteries again and remove any excess fill water.
...
I do not have experience with the 12V battery you
mentioned. I can tell you I have had good experience
with batteries from both companies, but I favor
US.
US batteries are more cost effective. Our San Jose
EAA Chapter batt man has tested many batts.
He has found:
-you pay more for a Trojan, the capacity lasts
longer over the 3 year life, but the self discharge
increases more than a US batt.
-the US batt costs less, and the capacity decreases
over the 3 year life more than a Trojan, but self
discharge is less than a Trojan.
Summary:
For a Trojan, you pay more & you get a little more.
But there are other aspects that just the product.
Buying a pack delivered to your door, the dealer
being flexible about coming back to pick up the dead
cores, and customer service when dealing with your
purchase is important too.
Every Trojan dealer I have ever dealt with does
not care for EV drivers with only 20+ batteries
to be ordered (small potatoes). Obviously, Trojan
is very fat on business, and their snobbery shows
(very poor customer service). Our local US battery
rep is excellent.
I hope to see you on the road :-)
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fowler wrote:
> All of the current measuring devices I've seen for EVs involve
> measuring across a shunt resistor. Does anyone use a clamp ammeter
> type setup? (Does a clamp ammeter work for DC or only AC?)
Most clamp-on ammeters use a transformer, and so only work on AC.
But there are also clamp-on ammeters that use a hall-effect device to
measure the magnetic field produced by the current; they work on both AC
or DC. However, they aren't quite as accurate as a shunt.
There are also moving-magnet analog meters that directly show DC current
flowing in a wire. This is the cheapest and least accurate method.
What type you pick depends a lot on how accurate you want your readings.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> And would you recommend gassing every day?
You need to get them up to the gassing voltage to reach full charge. If
all you ever use is a float charger, the batteries never gas and never
get properly equalized. So, every time you discharge the batteries
deeply enough to need a charge, you want to charge them back up to the
gassing threshold.
However, the current and time spent above the gassing voltage affects
life. When I'm driving my EV every day, I just *barely* charge it to the
gassing voltage (like 14.5v at 2 amps for a 12v 100 amphour battery).
Then, 1-4 times a month (whenever there is a significant difference
between battery voltages, indicating they need equalizing), I give them
a full equalizing charge (like 15v at 4 amps for that 12v 100ah
battery).
> I've read going above 2.37Vpc causes grid corrosion [but] I don't
> know how much of a factor it is in cell loss.
Both under-charging and over-charging will shorten battery life (damned
if you do, damned if you don't :-) All you can do is try to walk the
line between them, as best you can.
> I still try and stir by moderate gassing once a week for several
> hours (like about 2.55Vpc temperature corrected at 0.028Vpc/10-degF)
That's fine, as long as the current is low.
> and do a full equalization charge at 7.7-7.8V/6V battery for 2-3
> hours every month. (I quit doing 8A constant current equalizing
> charges pushing the 6V T125s well over 8V, since the batteries
> seemed to get bent out of shape. The 7.7-7.8V seems to run
> closer to the 4A that someone on the list said Trojan
> recommended.)
It will be 4a when the batteries are new, but you will find it creeping
up as the batteries age. At the end, it may take 10-12 amps or more to
get to 2.5vpc.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Anyone know what the AH rating at C/1 would be?
> Knowing that it's 75
> >AH at C/20 doesn't give me enough information to know if I
> should get this
> >battery.
>
> They are very close to one and one half times the
> Optima YT specs.
> Weight, A-hrs, Cost, CCA, Max current, etc.
I can't find the C/1 rating for either battery. The
OptimaBatteries.Com web site only lists the C/20 rating. I found one claim
of 105 AH on the standard YT, but Optima only claims 55 AH at C/20 so I
don't believe it.
-- Chris Yoder Smog, Just say NO!
Director, Information Services, DAR Drive electric today.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.its.caltech.edu/~rcy/
Peace is not the absence of war. Peace is the presence of a system for
resolving conflicts before war becomes necessary. War never creates peace.
- Anonymous
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:22 PM 1/30/03, you wrote:
Could someone remind me about using a.c. rated relays on a d.c. circuit?
.Do you put a big diode across the a.c. side of the relay? I've got a
solid state relay that I would like to use for my ceramic heater. Thanks,
AC solid state relays will not work at all on DC.
In general, AC rated devices (with no DC rating) do not work well
with high-voltage DC (over 40 volts.)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> They are very close to one and one half times the
> Optima YT specs.
> Weight, A-hrs, Cost, CCA, Max current, etc.
I can't find the C/1 rating for either battery. The
OptimaBatteries.Com web site only lists the C/20 rating. I found one claim
of 105 AH on the standard YT, but Optima only claims 55 AH at C/20 so I
don't believe it.
Use Peukert's equation.
-- Chris Yoder Smog, Just say NO!
Director, Information Services, DAR Drive electric today.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.its.caltech.edu/~rcy/
Peace is not the absence of war. Peace is the presence of a system for
resolving conflicts before war becomes necessary. War never creates peace.
- Anonymous
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was told by US a few years ago that .01 V pre cell per hour for dv/dt=0
finish rate was best after reaching 2.4V per cell. With my 56 cells, I look
for <.56V per hour actually over the entire charge profile since i'm using a
ferroresonant set to the final C/40 rate.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: Battery replacement time!
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I thought Nawaz recomended C/30 (3.33%) for finish, not 2% (C/50)...
>
> That's correct. The usual range is 2% to 4%. I go on the conservative
> side with 2%. Nawaz at US Battery is a bit more aggressive.
>
> > shutdown when the voltage rises less than 0.04v / cell / hour.
>
> That's the dv/dt algorithm, used in many large industrial chargers. It
> works great, but you still should look for the voltage to at least get
> to the gassing point (2.37v/cell, 7.11v on a 6v battery, 14.22v on a 12v
> battery, etc.) before using it. Otherwise, an old battery won't get to
> full charge before its dv/dt falls to less than 0.04v/cell/hour.
>
> > Would 2% produce less gassing but still use the same shutoff point?
>
> Yes.
>
> The downside to using 2% is that it won't be enough as the batteries get
> old. You'll have to crank up the finishing current or you won't reach a
> reasonable ending voltage (or it will take forever to get there).
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And Peukert's equation would be?
I'm beginning to remember why I left this list...
-- Chris Yoder Smog, Just say NO!
Director, Information Services, DAR Drive electric today.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.its.caltech.edu/~rcy/
Peace is not the absence of war. Peace is the presence of a system for
resolving conflicts before war becomes necessary. War never creates peace.
- Anonymous
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:43 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: 75Ah Optima
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > They are very close to one and one half times the
> > > Optima YT specs.
> > > Weight, A-hrs, Cost, CCA, Max current, etc.
> >
> > I can't find the C/1 rating for either battery. The
> >OptimaBatteries.Com web site only lists the C/20 rating. I
> found one claim
> >of 105 AH on the standard YT, but Optima only claims 55 AH
> at C/20 so I
> >don't believe it.
>
> Use Peukert's equation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >-- Chris Yoder Smog, Just say NO!
> > Director, Information Services, DAR Drive
> electric today.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.its.caltech.edu/~rcy/
> >
> >Peace is not the absence
> of war. Peace is the presence of a system for
> >resolving conflicts before war becomes necessary. War never
> creates peace.
> >
> >- Anonymous
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found this company that is selling them now
http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/
They have the D31M for $195.95 each with free shipping.
Ed Ang
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of damon henry
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:33 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: 75Ah Optima
>
>
> They are the long awaited Group 31 Optimas. I am considering purchasing
> some. I know of one EVer in the Portland area who bought some recently,
> however I don't believe he is not on the list. He is in the EVAlbum.
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/206.html
>
> I believe he got them for about $170 a piece. That is all I know
> other then
> the datasheets you have probably already downloaded from their website.
>
> damon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: 75Ah Optima
> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:38:44 -0800
> >
> >I just learned from Optima's website that they have 75Ah yellow
> tops (D31T
> >&
> >D31A) and blue top (D31M). Anyone knows anything about them?
> >
> >Ed Ang
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The AMPLOC sensors are DC sensing and are accurate to about 2%. That is
more then enough to let you know how hard you are pushing your
batteries. And it is isolated, so no fear of frying you datalogger or
laptop. The AMP300 is the highest current rating they have, so it won't
work for those that want to really push amps. But at $29 for the AMP200,
it seems like a good alternative to a shunt in some applications.
And there are other companies with version that go as high as 500,000 amps,
so even speed record challengers are covered. :-)
If you need more accuracy, check out the Integrated Parametric Current
Transformer (IPCT) www.ampsolutions.com which they claim is 100 times as
accurate. But I have to believe you aren't going to be as happy with the
price. :-)
At 12:14 PM 1/31/2003, you wrote:
Mark Fowler wrote:
> All of the current measuring devices I've seen for EVs involve
> measuring across a shunt resistor. Does anyone use a clamp ammeter
> type setup? (Does a clamp ammeter work for DC or only AC?)
Most clamp-on ammeters use a transformer, and so only work on AC.
But there are also clamp-on ammeters that use a hall-effect device to
measure the magnetic field produced by the current; they work on both AC
or DC. However, they aren't quite as accurate as a shunt.
There are also moving-magnet analog meters that directly show DC current
flowing in a wire. This is the cheapest and least accurate method.
What type you pick depends a lot on how accurate you want your readings.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Mr. Wilson,
I found your column "Green Machines and Politics" thought-provoking
regarding double-standards and internal conflicts. However, I must take
issue with your statement that the EV Plus program was "cancelled." In
fact, it was meant to be a short-term demonstration project, and it was
"completed." Big difference!
Best Regards,
George Tylinski
3376 NE Multnomah Street
Portland, OR
Re:
http://www.autoweek.com/columnists/cat_content_columnists.mv?port_code=a
utoweek&cat_code=columnists&loc_code=index&content_code=06106382
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They are just trying to cash in on green cachet by calling this fraud a
hybrid, even a "mild hybrid" as they term it. The electric motor does
NOTHING to drive the vehicle. This is a gas vehicle with lots of
electronic controls and electrically powered accessories to attain higher
gas mileage and lower emissions. A reasonable goal, but a fraudulent name.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone has a good source of Optima batteries or Exide Orbitals in the
Northern California or the San Francisco Bay Area?
Thanks.
Ed Ang
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The best way to store energy doesn't seem clear. From the numbers plain old
golf cart batteries are a better storage media than hydrogen. Yes hydrogen
is clean. The question you have to ask is would you get rid of your
batteries on your PV or wind system and use a fuel cell? I don't think so.
You would have to have more energy production than if you used plain
batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....Looking forward to flywheel battery
technology.........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:49 PM
Subject: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
> Why not use excess PV or wind produced energy to produce a supply of
> hydrogen for those several consecutive cloudy days beyond battery storage
> ?
> Hydrogen supply could fuel a fuel cell powered EV or produce electricity
> for the home or recharge the EV at night. A hydrogen refill is
> certainly quicker than a conventional battery charger.
> How much hydrogen, cubic feet (at what pressure ?) would be needed to
> produce say 10 kilowatt hours from a 1 kw fuel cell (that uses air and
> hydrogen ?) ?
> Can a fuel cell be run in reverse to produce hydrogen from water ?
> What would be the restriction on storing hydrogen at home in a garage or
> in an outdoor tank. Would a standard outdoor propane tank be used for
> hydrogen storage ?
> An EV might have a small fuel cell and a battery pack.
> Regen braking could either directly charge the battery pack or create
> hydrogen from water through running the fuel cell in reverse ?
> Menlo Park III,
> Bill
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The best way to store energy doesn't seem clear. From the numbers plain
old
> golf cart batteries are a better storage media than hydrogen. Yes
hydrogen
> is clean. The question you have to ask is would you get rid of your
> batteries on your PV or wind system and use a fuel cell? I don't think
so.
> You would have to have more energy production than if you used plain
> batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....Looking forward to flywheel battery
> technology.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:49 PM
> Subject: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
>
>
> > Why not use excess PV or wind produced energy to produce a supply of
> > hydrogen for those several consecutive cloudy days beyond battery
storage
> > ?
> > Hydrogen supply could fuel a fuel cell powered EV or produce electricity
> > for the home or recharge the EV at night. A hydrogen refill is
> > certainly quicker than a conventional battery charger.
> > How much hydrogen, cubic feet (at what pressure ?) would be needed to
> > produce say 10 kilowatt hours from a 1 kw fuel cell (that uses air and
> > hydrogen ?) ?
> > Can a fuel cell be run in reverse to produce hydrogen from water ?
> > What would be the restriction on storing hydrogen at home in a garage or
> > in an outdoor tank. Would a standard outdoor propane tank be used
for
> > hydrogen storage ?
> > An EV might have a small fuel cell and a battery pack.
> > Regen braking could either directly charge the battery pack or create
> > hydrogen from water through running the fuel cell in reverse ?
> > Menlo Park III,
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Visit www.juno.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> The best way to store energy doesn't seem clear. From the numbers plain old
> golf cart batteries are a better storage media than hydrogen. Yes hydrogen
> is clean. The question you have to ask is would you get rid of your
> batteries on your PV or wind system and use a fuel cell? I don't think so.
> You would have to have more energy production than if you used plain
> batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....Looking forward to flywheel battery
> technology.........
Flywheel tech is even more expensive and less realiable and lossy than
Hydrogen.
It would be a nice chart for Us techies to make for storing energy.
As for cost and practicality, that gets a bit interesting.
1 Joule Caps
1 Amp hour Super caps, and Jell cells
1Kwhr AGMs lead acid
10 Kwhr. Stack of golf cart batteries
1Mega watt hour Couple of gallons of Unleaded.
When you have to have a bi directional storage medium, Lead acid is
going to Beat Hydrogen.
Hydrogen is easy and clean if sombody hands you the H2 at 1 ATM.
It's a bitch if you have to electrolyze it, compress it, and transport
it. Then burn it or fuel cell it.
If you give it a practical look. H2 is NOT going to be accepted. It will
be just like the GM Magnacharger, over priced, over engineered and
finally dumped.
What does pass the practical test is Methanol/ethonol. They store
well,and can be ICED if needed, and can be Biogenerated, or converted
from natural Gas.
What I have not been keeping track of is the Hydrocarbon reformers for
Alcohols. How eff are they??? how big? how well to they use the C that
is liberated?
Lets face it Gasoline and Deisel fuel store a heckava lot of energy.
Lets use the Liquid form of stored H2 so we can slowly change the world,
instead of throwing it all away and going the hardest way to store H2,
compressed gas.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > RE the charging at work scene, when I asked the building owner
> > where I used to work back in the mid-90s about charging, they
> > hemmed and hawed...
>
> Typical! A few little ideas for next time:
>
> 1. It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
> 2. Figure out who is most likely to say "yes", and ask them!
> 3. Offer to offset your EVs energy use.
I went right to our CEO, and told him I needed an outlet and that I would pay
for everything involved. He very quickly replied something to the nature
of 'Did you already ask Facilities to install it?' as if it was absurd for me
to even ask permission. Our facilities department gave me twistlock 50Amp
240VAC plugs at two of our three locations in less than a week! (the owner of
the third building wanted to do an engineering report, etc, so our whole
company left the building; although not because of my plug, but I like to think
so. (8 )
Maybe I'm just spoiled...
Jon
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much energy could you effectively store in one of those large tanks for
compressor use?
I would think that has to be cheaper than a fuel cell.
you would ven get some free cooling.
Does anyone have any information on the Capacitors in the FCX used for
accelleration?
thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
Why not use excess PV or wind produced energy to produce a supply of
hydrogen for those several consecutive cloudy days beyond
battery storage
?
Hydrogen supply could fuel a fuel cell powered EV or produce electricity
for the home or recharge the EV at night. A hydrogen refill is
certainly quicker than a conventional battery charger.
How much hydrogen, cubic feet (at what pressure ?) would be needed to
produce say 10 kilowatt hours from a 1 kw fuel cell (that uses air and
hydrogen ?) ?
Can a fuel cell be run in reverse to produce hydrogen from water ?
What would be the restriction on storing hydrogen at home in a garage or
in an outdoor tank. Would a standard outdoor propane tank
be used for
hydrogen storage ?
An EV might have a small fuel cell and a battery pack.
Regen braking could either directly charge the battery pack or create
hydrogen from water through running the fuel cell in reverse ?
Menlo Park III,
Bill
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich,
I will have atleast a 3 day supply of battery storage, but wanted to
store excess energy from PV and wind in some other medium that could be
used when my battery storage runs low. Excess energy could always be
dumped into my solar hot water heating tanks, but I would like to charge
my electric car at night without completely depleting the wind/PV
conventional lead acid battery storage.
I was thinking of atleast 3 additional days of energy storage, but not in
conventional batteries as I don't have enough floor space for an
additional
72 six volt golf cart batteries.
Conventional flywheels are too expensive and massive to manufacture and
store say 72 kilowatt hours.
I was trying to store the energy in some other medium to later convert
back to electric. Fuel cells being more efficient, clean, and quiet
than say a stirling engine / generator set. Super capacitors are also
too expensive and massive.
I was considering a simple 1 KW generator or 1KW fuel cell.
Thermo-electric generator is too inefficient.
How about high pressure hydraulic storage using oil and later convert to
energy
through a torque converter attached to a generator ?
Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:10:11 -0800 Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > The best way to store energy doesn't seem clear. From the numbers
> plain old
> > golf cart batteries are a better storage media than hydrogen. Yes
> hydrogen
> > is clean. The question you have to ask is would you get rid of
> your
> > batteries on your PV or wind system and use a fuel cell? I don't
> think so.
> > You would have to have more energy production than if you used
> plain
> > batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....Looking forward to flywheel
> battery
> > technology.........
>
> Flywheel tech is even more expensive and less realiable and lossy
> than
> Hydrogen.
>
> It would be a nice chart for Us techies to make for storing energy.
> As for cost and practicality, that gets a bit interesting.
>
> 1 Joule Caps
> 1 Amp hour Super caps, and Jell cells
> 1Kwhr AGMs lead acid
> 10 Kwhr. Stack of golf cart batteries
> 1Mega watt hour Couple of gallons of Unleaded.
>
> When you have to have a bi directional storage medium, Lead acid is
> going to Beat Hydrogen.
> Hydrogen is easy and clean if sombody hands you the H2 at 1 ATM.
> It's a bitch if you have to electrolyze it, compress it, and
> transport
> it. Then burn it or fuel cell it.
> If you give it a practical look. H2 is NOT going to be accepted. It
> will
> be just like the GM Magnacharger, over priced, over engineered and
> finally dumped.
> What does pass the practical test is Methanol/ethonol. They
> store
> well,and can be ICED if needed, and can be Biogenerated, or
> converted
> from natural Gas.
> What I have not been keeping track of is the Hydrocarbon
> reformers for
> Alcohols. How eff are they??? how big? how well to they use the C
> that
> is liberated?
> Lets face it Gasoline and Deisel fuel store a heckava lot of energy.
> Lets use the Liquid form of stored H2 so we can slowly change the
> world,
> instead of throwing it all away and going the hardest way to store
> H2,
> compressed gas.
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I place my h2 newswires on
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/fuelcellvehicles/messages
Bill, if you extra energy and live in Menlo Park,
I could come over from Redwood City, connect my PFC-50,
and drain you down ?! :-)
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
My Menlo Park III is in Glastonbury, CT.
I think you might have a hard time getting here on only one charge, but
you are welcome to recharge at my place anytime you are in the
neighborhood.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:06:01 -0800 (PST) Bruce EVangel Parmenter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I place my h2 newswires on
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/fuelcellvehicles/messages
>
> Bill, if you extra energy and live in Menlo Park,
> I could come over from Redwood City, connect my PFC-50,
> and drain you down ?! :-)
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
In case you are wondering why I refer to my place as Menlo Park III.
I know there is a Menlo Park in NJ and in CA. That makes two Menlo
Parks.
A former vice president of the New England Electric Auto Association said
that
my place reminded him of Menlo Park after I gave him a tour of my home
made solar hot air system, home made solar hot water system, a PV / Wind
system, electric car conversions, flywheels, heatpump, and wood burning
stove with a coil to assist domestic hot water heating.
Menlo Park III,
Bill, Glastonbury, CT
--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:43:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Bruce,
My Menlo Park III is in Glastonbury, CT.
I think you might have a hard time getting here on only one charge, but
you are welcome to recharge at my place anytime you are in the
neighborhood.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:06:01 -0800 (PST) Bruce EVangel Parmenter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I place my h2 newswires on
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/fuelcellvehicles/messages
>
> Bill, if you extra energy and live in Menlo Park,
> I could come over from Redwood City, connect my PFC-50,
> and drain you down ?! :-)
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Truely revolutionary? Didn't Japan do this 15 years ago with
development of the Prius? The Insight also does but probably better
than GM. I guess this advertising is similar to Bush's 'commitment' to
the environment by producing hydrogen vehicles?
I don't know about the general audience watching the 'State of Disunion',
but I thought Bush was almost ready to start laughing when he made
commitments to the environment. His rationale, cut down more trees to
prevent
forest fires. Drill the artic for homeland oil sources and continue
selling SUV's to
boost the economy (heck, y'all, let's give em tax subsidies for small
business to
promote more SUV sales). In the mean time we'll spend 15 billion in Africa
with medication to help with aids (aka help the domestic big 3 of
lobbiest, the drug
companies line their pockets). Imagine what kind of EV's, solar cells
and wind
generators we could have with this money!
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
EVLN(%GM's Garter Belt Hybrid%)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2003/01/07/152468.html?NEWS
Detroit Auto Show: GM's Belt Alternator Starter Hybrid
System
DETROIT, Jan. 6, 2003; General Motors has developed a simple
solution to making hybrid-electric powertrain technology
available to more types of cars, trucks, and sport utility
vehicles, the company announced today at the North American
International Auto Show. GM engineers developed the belt
alternator starter system (BAS) to provide improved fuel
economy in stop-and-go driving by shutting the engine off at
idle mode and by enabling early fuel cutoff to the engine
during decelerations. The system combines sophisticated
engine controls with GM's VTi variable transmission and a
precision electric motor/generator. Regenerative braking and
efficient charging are also part of this system. Estimated
EPA composite fuel economy savings range from 12 percent to
15 percent. Other benefits of the belt alternator starter
system include the versatility to use the system on four-
and six-cylinder engines, with minimal impact on engine and
transmission architectures. Electric power comes from a
single 36-volt battery while maintaining the present 12-volt
electrical system. All vehicle accessories and passenger
comfort systems, such as air conditioning, remain functional
during the periods when the engine is automatically stopped.
Copyright � 1996-2002 The Auto Channel.
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Going to the CEO was a good move.
I have found that the best place to start is with the PR department, or
with folks that are sensitive to PR.
If you have "buddies" in facilities that will do you a favor while no one
is looking, it can also be a reasonable approach. I have plugs all over the
site because of just this reason. They did it without my even asking me
because they thought my car was so cool.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked our company president (500Million business unit) about charging
at work.
He said "I fully support EV's, in fact I have a garage on the first
floor that you can use".
I don't drive my TEVan daily, especially in the salt covered roads, but
when I drive it
to work I pull it into the garage and charge. So the President doesn't
use the garage, but I do!
Of course my manager doesn't have a problem with this!
Rod
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Going to the CEO was a good move.
I have found that the best place to start is with the PR department,
or with folks that are sensitive to PR.
If you have "buddies" in facilities that will do you a favor while
no one is looking, it can also be a reasonable approach. I have plugs
all over the site because of just this reason. They did it without my
even asking me because they thought my car was so cool.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Take out the dash.
www.trojanbattery.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: Trojan Batteries
> Hi,
> Anyone know of an alternate web address for Trojan
> batteries? <www.trojan-battery.com>, which I've found on other sites and
> via google is giving me a DNS error. Maybe their server is just down?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Motorola use to make thyristors switchable off under load in DC
circuit. Those aren't common but do exist.
Victor
Ashley Roll wrote:
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Solid State relays are much different then "standard" mechanical ones. The
> problem is they generally use a thyristor type of semiconductor device (like
> a Triac). These work by conducting (after they are triggered) until the
> CURRENT through them drops below a threshold level (quite low).
>
> This means that they will work on an AC power supply because the voltage
> (and thus the current) will fall to zero 100 or 120 (50Hz/60Hz) times a
> second so when you remove the trigger signal they will shut off and the end
> of the next mains 1/2 cycle.
>
> However when used with DC, the voltage (and current) never falls to zero. So
> once triggered they won't turn off.
>
> They also dissipate a bit of heat when you start passing large currents
> through them.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Cheers,
> Ash.
>
> ---
> Ashley Roll
> Digital Nemesis Pty Ltd
> www.digitalnemesis.com
> Mobile: +61 (0)417 705 718
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> > Behalf Of Richard Millhouse
> > Sent: Friday, 31 January 2003 2:22 PM
> > To: evlist
> > Subject: A.C. relays
> >
> >
> > Could someone remind me about using a.c. rated relays on a
> > d.c. circuit? .Do you put a big diode across the a.c. side of
> > the relay? I've got a solid state relay that I would like to
> > use for my ceramic heater. Thanks,
> >
> > Uncle Rich in Central Oregon
> >
--- End Message ---
