EV Digest 2569
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A.C. relays
by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Measuring Current
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) OT: bumper sticker design
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Measuring Current
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Measuring Current
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery replacement time!
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) fuses (WAS A.C. relays)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVLN(Miramar HS 93 Ford Probe EV)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) OT: How the Light Gets in
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A.C. relays
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Measuring Current
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell / Battery Hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: OT: How the Light Gets in
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) A hybrid is a hybrid is ...
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: A hybrid is a hybrid is ...
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Saft Ni-Cad temperature sensor - 4th failure
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: fuses (WAS A.C. relays)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Electric Renault Express Vans
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
> I asked our company president (500Million business unit) about charging
> at work.
> He said "I fully support EV's, in fact I have a garage on the first
> floor that you can use".
> I don't drive my TEVan daily, especially in the salt covered roads, but
> when I drive it
> to work I pull it into the garage and charge. So the President doesn't
> use the garage, but I do!
> Of course my manager doesn't have a problem with this!
> Rod
You are the lucky one! How do you rate the president's parking garage?
Everywhere I ever worked parking spaces especially those in choice locations
were scarce, highly coveted and strenously competed for. All the desirable
spots were assigned to executives and upper management. If somebody wasn't
using a choice spot there would be many people asking for it. Judging from
the many woeful stories I've read in this forum, charging at work is one of
the most difficult and unfun aspects of commuting with an EV. I'm glad I
never had to.
Tom Shay
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The president's garage doesn't have 230Vac, so it could be better.
I haven't asked for a dedicated charger port, but he would probably agree.
Unfortunately 50% of the open parking spots are history for the white
collar types. The factory worker
spots are even more scarce, most of those moved to China (40 bikes per car
as they say in the communication meetings). I still can't complain
though, I have a job, house, utilities
and a great family, but I guess that's not enough for most.
No complaints here :-) (except the bushes need some serious cutting,
they have become irrationally obtrusive)
Peace is not the absence of war. Peace is the presence of a system for
resolving conflicts before war becomes necessary. War never creates peace.
- Anonymous
Thomas Shay wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
I asked our company president (500Million business unit) about charging
at work.
He said "I fully support EV's, in fact I have a garage on the first
floor that you can use".
I don't drive my TEVan daily, especially in the salt covered roads, but
when I drive it
to work I pull it into the garage and charge. So the President doesn't
use the garage, but I do!
Of course my manager doesn't have a problem with this!
Rod
You are the lucky one! How do you rate the president's parking garage?
Everywhere I ever worked parking spaces especially those in choice locations
were scarce, highly coveted and strenously competed for. All the desirable
spots were assigned to executives and upper management. If somebody wasn't
using a choice spot there would be many people asking for it. Judging from
the many woeful stories I've read in this forum, charging at work is one of
the most difficult and unfun aspects of commuting with an EV. I'm glad I
never had to.
Tom Shay
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--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget the machine shop; they'll have lotsa power (and are proud
OF it), and usually a delivery entrance with truck access.
Bill, you car's almost as cool as you are...
- GT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:29 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Work charging (was: Fun with EV's)
>
>
> Going to the CEO was a good move.
>
> I have found that the best place to start is with the PR
> department, or
> with folks that are sensitive to PR.
>
> If you have "buddies" in facilities that will do you a
> favor while no one
> is looking, it can also be a reasonable approach. I have
> plugs all over the
> site because of just this reason. They did it without my even
> asking me
> because they thought my car was so cool.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2003-01-31 at 21:05, Rod Hower wrote:
> I still can't complain though, I have a job, house, utilities and a
> great family, but I guess that's not enough for most. No complaints
> here :-) (except the bushes need some serious cutting, they have
> become irrationally obtrusive)
4 out of 5, just like me. Except for the fact that one of my 4 is that
my bushes are fine. I'll trade you one set of nicely trimmed bushes for
a job. ;-)
Lonnie
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:28 AM
Subject: Measuring Current
> Hi all,
>
> Quick little question.
> All of the current measuring devices I've seen for EVs involve measuring
across a shunt resistor.
> Does anyone use a clamp ammeter type setup?
> eg http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1565
> (Does a clamp ammeter work for DC or only AC?)
There are clamp-on ammeters that measure DC, but only a few of them will. I
have one.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
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Dang!
And here I was hoping I could have another place
North of Otmar's to mooch a charge.
(Menlo Park, CA is just North of Otmar's place in
Palo Alto, and South of SF on the SF penninsula)
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
I think Glastonbury (just southeast of Hartford), CT is just south of San
Francisco, only on the opposite coast :-).
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:11:50 -0800 (PST) Bruce EVangel Parmenter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dang!
>
> And here I was hoping I could have another place
> North of Otmar's to mooch a charge.
>
> (Menlo Park, CA is just North of Otmar's place in
> Palo Alto, and South of SF on the SF penninsula)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
sorry for the OT
bumper sticker designs were discussed a while ago, so here is my offering:
http://kcd.com/samuzi/ev/
please feel free to use it
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm curious, do you use a software program to design the circuit,
and if so, what? I suppose their are several circuit designer
programs out there, and then could perhaps print out a sketch or
trace of the circuit. This is something I have to learn about.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Measuring Current
> I am looking to use an AMPLOC hall effect device on my
motorcycle.
> http://www.ampsense.com/
> Just received one last week and have not worked up a display
circuit
> yet. Probably will get some time in the next week or so.
>
> At 03:28 AM 1/31/2003, Mark Fowler wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Quick little question.
> >All of the current measuring devices I've seen for EVs involve
measuring
> >across a shunt resistor.
> >Does anyone use a clamp ammeter type setup?
> >eg http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1565
> >(Does a clamp ammeter work for DC or only AC?)
> >
> >Mark Fowler
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Mark Fowler wrote:
> > All of the current measuring devices I've seen for EVs
involve
> > measuring across a shunt resistor. Does anyone use a clamp
ammeter
> > type setup? (Does a clamp ammeter work for DC or only AC?)
>
> Most clamp-on ammeters use a transformer, and so only work on
AC.
>
> But there are also clamp-on ammeters that use a hall-effect
device to
> measure the magnetic field produced by the current; they work
on both AC
> or DC. However, they aren't quite as accurate as a shunt.
>
> There are also moving-magnet analog meters that directly show
DC current
> flowing in a wire. This is the cheapest and least accurate
method.
>
> What type you pick depends a lot on how accurate you want your
readings.
I've been using a Tenma clamp-on AC/DC ammeter from, I believe,
MCM Electronics. Depending on whether they're having a sale, you
can get them for about $130-160. Sometimes, one of our EAA
members "corners the market" on these, and buys a bunch at a
discount for other EV'ers in the area - it's conceivable he has
one or two at the low price. My Tenma has been one of my
favorite tools for my EV and other electrical stuff. I use it
several times a week. Seems reasonably accurate, and has even
survived a drop of a couple of feet right on the jaws onto
cement, but that doesn't seem to have hurt it. Be aware though,
that digital clamp-on meters don't do well on circuits with high
crest factors; I know, I've been there, having tried to measure
the battery string current on my EV while the controller was
running - current read way low.
On the other hand, if you're looking for something to permanently
wire into your vehicle, then I haven't helped you here.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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Lee Hart wrote:
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > And would you recommend gassing every day?
>
> You need to get them up to the gassing voltage to reach full
charge. If
> all you ever use is a float charger, the batteries never gas
and never
> get properly equalized. So, every time you discharge the
batteries
> deeply enough to need a charge, you want to charge them back up
to the
> gassing threshold.
>
> However, the current and time spent above the gassing voltage
affects
> life. When I'm driving my EV every day, I just *barely* charge
it to the
> gassing voltage (like 14.5v at 2 amps for a 12v 100 amphour
battery).
> Then, 1-4 times a month (whenever there is a significant
difference
> between battery voltages, indicating they need equalizing), I
give them
> a full equalizing charge (like 15v at 4 amps for that 12v 100ah
> battery).
I've been using the Zivan K2 120V charger the last two to three
years. I've set the charger to bring the battery pack to just
below gassing. The K2, which I understand is somewhat like the
NG3 and NG5, has a three-stage charging sequence: bulk (red
light) with current more or less constant (the current droops on
the DC side as the pack voltage goes up, but the AC-side current
goes up, so I can't quite make myself call it a "constant power"
charger; the red-light phase also dumps in ~14 hours, an
undocumented feature), ending charge (red and yellow lights) of
~3 hours with constant current - this phase turns on once the
pack reaches a certain voltage/amperage inflection point, and
turn off (green light). I don't trust chargers to take a battery
pack safely to an inflection point - seen too many somewhat
imbalanced or hot packs get cooked. So I just run in the
red-light bulk mode to just below gassing, and if want to go
higher, then I'll do it manually with a variac.
So it appears that you are going to a little bit higher voltage
than I am, so I might adjust the voltage screw on the K2 a wee
bit higher. Do you have a preferred length of time for the 14.5V
point to be kept? And what about your equalization charge time
at 15V/4A? Do you run your normal charge voltage (14.5V) a
little higher if you're not going to be using or charging the car
for several days?
I do note that the way I'm doing things now, I get a little bit
of brown on top of the plates/separators. I suspect this is a
light sulfation haze. When I was more aggressive with the
gassing, I don't think I ever saw this. Things were just gray.
>
> > I've read going above 2.37Vpc causes grid corrosion [but] I
don't
> > know how much of a factor it is in cell loss.
>
> Both under-charging and over-charging will shorten battery life
(damned
> if you do, damned if you don't :-) All you can do is try to
walk the
> line between them, as best you can.
Yes, I've concluded I'm walking a tightrope. It's even worse
when I'm trying to keep 48 cells in line on that rope (some of
them fall off - splat!). So it seems like a bulk charge can be
done with a single charger for the whole string, all the while
keeping tabs on each battery for the one that reaches the gassing
voltage first. At about that point, the best strategy seems to
be to go down to the individual battery level with individual
chargers, and treat the batteries as the individuals they are
(really the cells are) rather than as just a group.
I purchased a small (say 2-3 cigarette packs in size) 6V charger
from one of our EAA members a few years ago (he only made a few
of them). It had been modified from some kind of power supply
and can belt out 30+A for extended periods as long as there is a
fan on it. I was quite impressed! Lots of pop in a small
package! My goal is to put together a rack of 16 of these little
chargers (although cut down to what I need to use - a common
power supply could probably cut down on a lot of duplication),
each one controlled by an object in a software program (yeah, get
back to my object-oriented software-dev days :-) ), which object
also keeps tabs on its corresponding battery.
Very simply:
new(battery);
init_battery; -- init object with properties from physical
battery
while (!done) {
set_charge_current(battery); -- has the means to figure
out max power that can be set to
-- avoid
overloading charger or power supply, getting things
-- too hot,
etc.
read_battery(battery, done);
if (!done)
sleep(some_time);
}
Just a sketch of a battery object, of which there would be 16 in
my case. I would imagine to do a charging program right is a few
hundred lines of something like C++. However, I think it would
be a kickass fun project and would look forward to actually being
able to do it. Got the wiring loom strung in the car a couple of
years ago - now have to use it! I've mulled over a proper little
computer to put in the car somewhere. Issues, issues... It
would be my first time actually controlling hardware with
software.
>
> > I still try and stir by moderate gassing once a week for
several
> > hours (like about 2.55Vpc temperature corrected at
0.028Vpc/10-degF)
>
> That's fine, as long as the current is low.
It was up to 3-4A for extended periods of time after some of
those 8A equalization runs, but now it seems to settle in at
2-3A. I think if I hadn't done those 8A runs, it might still be
in the 1-2A range. Oh well, live and learn. USABC does say to
do 8A, though. Why Trojan is at 4A I don't know.
>
> > and do a full equalization charge at 7.7-7.8V/6V battery for
2-3
> > hours every month. (I quit doing 8A constant current
equalizing
> > charges pushing the 6V T125s well over 8V, since the
batteries
> > seemed to get bent out of shape. The 7.7-7.8V seems to run
> > closer to the 4A that someone on the list said Trojan
> > recommended.)
>
> It will be 4a when the batteries are new, but you will find it
creeping
> up as the batteries age. At the end, it may take 10-12 amps or
more to
> get to 2.5vpc.
Yep, my first pack (the last one) was getting like that towards
the end. I did try one or two 12A equalization runs on it, and
boy that gets things hot. Had the K&W BC-20 at that time, and
with the high voltage on the pack, I even cooked one of the AC
wall outlet connections coming down from the apt (in the kitchen)
to the carport's ceiling charge port. Ouch! Hopefully the one
and only time!
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -
Leonard Cohen
Do you happen to recall which Leonard Cohen song that is from? I
have "Songs of Love and Hate" and "Tower of Song" CD. I keep
thinking of one of your recent comments about perfection and the
the crack in everything.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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Rich Rudman wrote:
[snip]
> 1 Joule Caps
> 1 Amp hour Super caps, and Jell cells
> 1Kwhr AGMs lead acid
> 10 Kwhr. Stack of golf cart batteries
> 1Mega watt hour Couple of gallons of Unleaded.
Don't you mean about 70kWh for the couple of gallons of unleaded.
Yeah, I get your point, it's highly energy dense - 70kWh for
about 15 lbs of fuel (I think gasoline is about 7lbs/gal,
right?).
>
[snip]
> Lets face it Gasoline and Deisel fuel store a heckava lot of
energy.
> Lets use the Liquid form of stored H2 so we can slowly change
the world,
> instead of throwing it all away and going the hardest way to
store H2,
> compressed gas.
What about nanotubes and carbon fibers for H storage at 1 atm and
normal temperature? Seems like there is some potential for
progress there.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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Bill Dube wrote:
> At 09:22 PM 1/30/03, you wrote:
> >Could someone remind me about using a.c. rated relays on a
d.c. circuit?
> >.Do you put a big diode across the a.c. side of the relay?
I've got a
> >solid state relay that I would like to use for my ceramic
heater. Thanks,
>
>
> AC solid state relays will not work at all on DC.
>
> In general, AC rated devices (with no DC rating) do
not work well
> with high-voltage DC (over 40 volts.)
What about fuses? I have 250V (don't say AC or DC) 3AG 20A
ceramic fuses keeping tabs on lines coming from my battery pack.
There are also some 250V 1A and 5A glass fuses, like for going to
the DC-DC converter and to the RUSSCO heater. I understand the
ceramic is to avoid glass shattering with a high-voltage
interrupt, but the issue is whether the fuse will stop a DC arc.
I thought I'd jump on this thread since I've had a little voice
in the back of my mind that says "maybe you'd better ask
knowledgeable folks sometime". The guys down at the electronics
shop say these fuses will work, but they may not really realize
there's a big battery pack in the circuit.
96V pack.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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Tonight on a SF PBS TV station KQED their program 'This Week'
http://www.kqed.org/programs/program-landing.jsp?progID=6380
one on the panel stated, '... Bush's reference to hydrogen
fuel cell vehicles is typical politician statements. He said
it would be 15 years before they would available. That is
ten years after his term even if he gets a second one ..."
Meanwhile back at the ICE profit coffers ...
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Almost a year ago I went to a EV rally in Miramar which was 100 miles form
were I live . I had been working on a EV pick up truck for Jon Halquest who
lived down also . But as I don't have a gas car this was going to be hard.
My plan was to tow My Porsche with soon to be Jon's pick up with both
battery packs hooked together . Jon had a brother that lived 1/2 way were I
could plug in . I figured that with the cars so close together there would
be less wing resistance and since both vehicles could go the 50 miles , then
plugged in together they should also be able to go that distance or better.
Then Jon couldn't get the days off from work and my friend Larry (who has
been working on the EV ford explorer) say he can go and would love to drive
Jon's truck in the rally and had a trailer (and a gas truck). Well this was
the easy way and even though I wanted to see it I could do it with the EV's
I went the easy way. Larry couldn't go both days so I missed the auto cross
and the first days events .We got a late start and I think we made the 100
mile trip in less than an hour and a half. My idea of taking a day to get
there and a nice slow ,relaxed EV drive was replaced with a wild roller
coaster ride as we raced to make it towing a trailer with the truck behind
it. One long train moving very fast.. We made it in time for the road rally
were we drove 26 miles through town and on some big hi ways ect were the
object was to stick to the speed limit as close as possible. There were
stops and check points and the usually road rally stuff( lot's of fun) . We
ended up at a park were we could keep driving around a 1 mile circle around
the park (beautiful park ) till we were out of juice.
Larry drove Jon's truck 70 miles that day and I put 50 on my Porsche.
Larry had to be back that night for a wedding so I left the truck there for
Jon to pick up and loaded up the Porsche and we flew back home (driving
even faster that we came 8-O ) ;;;;;
> During the day, automotive students at Miramar High can be
> found working on a 1993 Ford Probe that has been converted
> to run on battery power. Automotive students at the school
> are learning the basics and a whole range of automotive
> skills.
I got to see the Ford Probe and lots of other cars that other High school's
had done . There were lots of kids having a good time doing there EV thing .
I was amazed at the time the teachers had taken with these students , there
are a lot of caring people out there. ( I read some were that the average
school teacher in Florida spends over one hundred dollar on school supply's
for there students out of there own pockets. )
> "My students have dismantled and re-engineered this car,"
> said Lowell Simmons, Miramar's automotive instructor. "We
> have students working on a year-long study on how cars
> affect the environment. In competitions, students test their
> vehicle in areas such as speed, handling, and agility."
Lowell is a wonderful person who has spent a lot of time putting together
this EV program'.
Kids building EV's in high school , sounds to good to be true? I called and
asked about this year and was very sad to hear that there was NO money this
year for any kind of EV event . ( plenty for Fool cells though ) .
> Simmons is proud of his students' work and thinks there will
> be many good opportunities for students qualified in
> automotive technology and electric vehicle technology.
>
Seeing somebody working so hard to give kids a hands on feel for EV's and
pulling it off so well was wonderful , I was glad I could be there.
Steve Clunn
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On 31 Jan 2003 at 20:54, Chuck Hursch wrote:
> Do you happen to recall which Leonard Cohen song that is from?
Being a longtime LC devotee, if Lee doesn't mind I'll jump in here. It's
from "The Future," released in 1992, and the tune is "Anthem." The actual
sung text is just slightly different from Lee's quotation:
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
David Roden
Akron, Ohio, USA
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
-- Czeslaw Milosz, 1942
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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In a message dated 01/02/03 03:41:18 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
> I guess I should look for a mechanical relay, and then maybe the diode
trick
> might work.
Try a low side mosfet with a photvoltaic isolator (IR make some). My two
heater cores are switched in four stages with low side fets and all the
control gear is inside the heater casing.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am using AutoTraxEDA (http://www.autotraxeda.com) as it is free and I am
just an electronics hobbyist. I am using the PIC microcontroller from
Microchip (http://www.microchip.com) to do the A/D and display the
results. I'll test the design on a solderless prototype board before
printing the PCB and etching a board. I'll post my design when I have it
working. But don't hold you breath too hard as it is secondary (rainy day
project) to my motorcycle project.
At 09:36 PM 1/31/2003, you wrote:
I'm curious, do you use a software program to design the circuit,
and if so, what? I suppose their are several circuit designer
programs out there, and then could perhaps print out a sketch or
trace of the circuit. This is something I have to learn about.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Measuring Current
> I am looking to use an AMPLOC hall effect device on my
motorcycle.
> http://www.ampsense.com/
> Just received one last week and have not worked up a display
circuit
> yet. Probably will get some time in the next week or so.
>
> At 03:28 AM 1/31/2003, Mark Fowler wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Quick little question.
> >All of the current measuring devices I've seen for EVs involve
measuring
> >across a shunt resistor.
> >Does anyone use a clamp ammeter type setup?
> >eg http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1565
> >(Does a clamp ammeter work for DC or only AC?)
> >
> >Mark Fowler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where are you going to get thee energy to cool hydrogen into a liquid and
pay for a super insulated container ??
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:15:11 -0800 "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> [snip]
> > 1 Joule Caps
> > 1 Amp hour Super caps, and Jell cells
> > 1Kwhr AGMs lead acid
> > 10 Kwhr. Stack of golf cart batteries
> > 1Mega watt hour Couple of gallons of Unleaded.
>
> Don't you mean about 70kWh for the couple of gallons of unleaded.
> Yeah, I get your point, it's highly energy dense - 70kWh for
> about 15 lbs of fuel (I think gasoline is about 7lbs/gal,
> right?).
> >
> [snip]
> > Lets face it Gasoline and Deisel fuel store a heckava lot of
> energy.
> > Lets use the Liquid form of stored H2 so we can slowly change
> the world,
> > instead of throwing it all away and going the hardest way to
> store H2,
> > compressed gas.
>
> What about nanotubes and carbon fibers for H storage at 1 atm and
> normal temperature? Seems like there is some potential for
> progress there.
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
>
> On 31 Jan 2003 at 20:54, Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> > Do you happen to recall which Leonard Cohen song that is from?
>
> Being a longtime LC devotee, if Lee doesn't mind I'll jump in here. It's
> from "The Future," released in 1992, and the tune is "Anthem." The actual
> sung text is just slightly different from Lee's quotation:
>
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack, a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in.
Thanks, David. I actually got the quote indirectly, from "The Little Zen
Companion" which dropped the repeated words.
I like the quote because it so neatly expresses what we are doing with
EVs.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many know I try to walk the line of the EV List Charter
and user defined guidelines, and past POSTs have stated
that fcv POSTs would be more appropriate when fcvs
become available.
Those fcv POSTs would be focusing on the EV guts that
they have in common with EVs. This is similar to why
the EV List allows a limited amount of hybrid POSTs
that focus on the EV aspects.
I mention all this not because I want to bend the rules
but we are after a crest of change in the EV world. Not
only that there are no production EV being made, but the
EV world is being overwhelmed with hybrids being touted
as Electrics, and recently h2 (derived from oil) fcvs
as the godsend that need a bail out ($).
Before EVs get left pushed behind after being trampled
over by the media clamoring for what pleases their
advertisers, the EV community can continue be positive
and look for any advantages to the EV cause.
One of those that many have been hoping for is the use
of EV batteries andcomponent in hybrids. The thought is
with the production of hybrids, the cost of batteries
and other Electric guts would drop, making advanced EV
guts affordable by all.
While there are hybrids now, and recently the media has
touted the automaker's statments at the Detroit Auto
Show that more ae coming, the availability of those EV
guts has not been realized (yet). I am sure many are
patiently waiting for that to happen.
The preface I intro-d with was because the following may
lead to a flurry of fcv POSTs and I had to qualify where
I was coming from.
There are fcvs on the road right now. They are far and few
between, there is no infrastructure, but governmental
support with tax dollars has been stated (even CARB
has blessed them).
For those that read the fcv newswires (much of which are
investment trolling which I weed out on the fcv newswires
I POST to the fuelcellvehicles group), the ones that have
useful data on them tell of the different approaches
in fcv Electrical designs.
Some of those designs could also be put in the same
category as the hybrids that are going to bring the
prices down on EV guts.
One of those is what Toyota is calling a fchv, a fc
hybrid. see
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/fuelcellvehicles/message/121
(kind of an odd USA Today stoy, its just facts)
But one has to be careful when the word hybrid is used.
One company's use is different than another's.
As we have seen, GM thinks a hybrid can be an ICE SUV
that uses a 1kw alternator to charge the aux battery
during braking. While I also think this is a ploy to
use a fake hybrid design to use loopholes to sell
more ICE, it points out how 'wide-open' the term
hybrid is, and how it is being used.
Many have POSTed about a plug in hybrid and how it
would truly be the marriage between the EV and ICE
world (the best of both). But I fear that is not
going to happen even if battery prices went down.
Please do not think me callous but today's shuttle
incident has the media using the term h2 all over
the place. Not unlike the Hindenburg coverage that
has done h2 a disservice, this may do same.
It is nice to read of hybrids, but we will have to
make an effort clarify what type we are talking
about (because the automakers and media aren't).
Whether it is an ICE hybrid, a fc batt hybrid, a
fc ultracap hybrid, an fc ICE hybrid, etc.
Watt do you think?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please do not think me callous but today's shuttle
incident has the media using the term h2 all over
the place. Not unlike the Hindenburg coverage that
has done h2 a disservice, this may do same.
Just for those who may not have yet heard, the Space Shuttle Columbia
broke up during re-entry at approximately 8:00 am CST this morning
over central Texas. It is expected that all hands were lost as the
vehicle was travelling at around 12,900 MPH and had an altitude of 39
miles at the time of breakup, giving no chance to bail out.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt,
dixit Saft, ni-cad modules mustn't be above 35�C to last ! but on my
experience even with that they will last !
Sorry to give my help late but just in case you need a spare parts or
comparison price:
the scootelec temp sensor ref:733738 is sold here at 30 euro(= $) with
immediate availability, just add about 5euro for guarantied shipment.
Can you tell me about your scootelec range,
i have one and about 28Mph and 25 Miles on flat road and 20 miles on city,
not so good than the Scooler but second hand price was very low...
It has near 16000km and use is second set of modules because of a... 'go
boom" scenario, the watering tubing was blocked, pressure went high and...
Kaboum.
If you have questions, need the servicing computer or other i will be
pleased to help !
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Trevaskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Saft Ni-Cad temperature sensor - 4th failure
> Tom,
>
> Thanks for the info on the sensors... yes, it is exactly the same as the
one
> on your web page.
>
> I've been waiting all this time for correspondence from Peugeot's importer
> and finally seem to be getting somewhere! I was reluctant to do anything
> "renegade" since the warranty issue was somewhat unclear - the scooter was
> only under warranty for a year, but the batteries are covered for 4 years
> (or 55,000 discharged Ah, whichever comes first) so didn't know where I
> stood!
>
> I had the ECU memory read, of which one of the figures is the time that
the
> batteries spend at or above 50sC which is currently running at a total of
66
> hours. Peugeot (in France) seem to think that figure is too high, and
that
> the batteries have been overheating and killing the sensors. I'm
surprised
> that there haven't been symptoms more serious than just dead sensors
(though
> I'm glad that I haven't experienced a "When NiCads go boom" scenario!!)
>
> Doesn't it sound a bit far-fetched that the temperature sensor would die
at
> that kind of temperature? It's a TEMPERATURE sensor-that is it's job!!
>
> I'm now waiting for a new sensor and to monitor battery temp and see if
the
> batteries are cooking themselves and everything around them!
>
> One good thing is that I might be getting a new battery pack under
warranty!
>
> Matt
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> What about fuses? I have 250V (don't say AC or DC) 3AG 20A
> ceramic fuses keeping tabs on lines coming from my battery pack.
Look for a UL marking on the fuse. If it's there, then it's been tested
and there will be published ratings for the voltages it's been tested
at. Then, look up the manufacturer's specifications for that particular
fuse.
Normal cheap glass fuses are NOT rated for DC. Some of them haven't even
been tested on AC. What good is a cheap fuse if it doesn't even work
when it's supposed to!
Here are some examples of 1.25" x 0.25" dia. fuses that *ARE* rated for
250 volts DC:
Buss AGC (glass) 10 amps max
Buss ABC (ceramic) 15 amps max
Littelfuse 3AB (ceramic) 20 amps max
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks Jens,
You are right for the reseting, the manual proc�dure just make the same
thing than for the scootelec, egalisation charge for watering only, so the
XR is utile for sure !
how many do you paid for the XR25 ?
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Renault Express Vans
> Red Nose Day 2003: Comedy hilft!
> Unter dem Motto "Tut was Verr�cktes und sammelt Geld" rufen Comedians,
> Musiker und andere K�nstler zu Spenden f�r Not leidende Kinder auf.
> Die verr�ckte Comedy-Spenden-Gala am 14. M�rz, 20:15 Uhr live auf
ProSieben.
> Mehr Infos auf www.rednoseday.de und im ProSieben Text S. 707
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Jens, i'm happy to hear you have the EV grin.
> :-)))
>
> > I'm actualy dealing for the Renault service computer you speak about,
will
> > be great to have it but note that it's not indispensable because we know
the
> > manual batteries servicing procedure with the control dashboard (like
the
> > peugeot scootelec)
>
> I thought you need the service computer at least to start a maintenance
charge and activate the "register access" mode on the dashboard computer to
reset the Ah counters? Or is there another trick?
> But it was relatively easy to get an XR25 here in Munich (only 7 phone
calls :-) so if you can't get one in France, contact me off list.
>
> > I profit of this message to ask if there is people in USA interested in
our
> > electric scooter: the Scooler
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/332.html
> > note : this is the 60 miles/35 Mph version
> > Forgetting possibly the mass production far to expensive, we will start
soon
> > a little production to satisfy european requests, i'm trying to convince
the
> > boss that USA ev hobbyist want it too !
> > So, on the list members opinion, what will be the US market for an
electric
> > scooter about 5000euro price, with 65 to 95 miles guarantied range at
> > respectively 50 to
> > 35 Mph ?
>
> You should also ask the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zappy forum, where
all the electric scooter guys hang around.
> Maybe Ken Trough can make an article about Alel in his next Visforvoltage
(http://visforvoltage.com) magazine!
>
> Regards, Jens
>
--- End Message ---
