EV Digest 2596
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Tilley Scam Exposed in the Media
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
by "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EVLN(Plenty of free EV parking, with no production EVs availa
ble)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: EV speed record
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EVLN(FPL raises Electricity prices as fuel goes up)
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV trading post scam
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Battery Management System ideas
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Battery Management System ideas
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Got Isolation?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) DE-sulfation? pulse charging
by "Tom Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: DE-sulfation? pulse charging
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV speed record
by Henry Deaton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Tilley Scam Exposed in the Media
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery Management and Regulators
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Tilley Scam Exposed in the Media
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Management System ideas
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV speed record/LSR motorcycle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roy for the post. It was hilarious reading. Tilley must be in
trouble if he can't even keep the "Believers" believing.
Roderick Wilde
There have been a few whistleblowers and apparrently Mr. Tilley has
a long history of this sort of thing.
Go here for all the dirt:
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/fraud/
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim:
I have helped schools with S-10 and Ranger conversions. I think the S-10 is
a little easier to convert if you are planning to put the batteries between
the frame rails. (I think this is the most secure and best looking method.)
The frame rails have a wider spacing on the S-10 than the Ranger. On the
Ranger, the leaf springs are to the outside of the frame rails and the rails
are about 37" outside to outside (on an '83) On the S-10, the leaf springs
are underneath the frame rails. Also the rear suspension on the Ranger uses
staggered shocks - the one on the right is angled forward while the one on
the left is angled to the rear from the axle. Further, the differential
housing is not centered between the rear wheels so the drive shaft runs at
an angle from the back of the transmission to the differential. We were
able to mount 5 T-145s in the engine compartment, three T-145s turned
long-dimension fore and aft in a box on the left of the driveshaft in front
of the axle, two on the right side and five more in a box behind the axle.
This was a long-bed truck and there was more room behind the axle to install
more batteries but the school limited the voltage to 96 (ed. program rules).
This arrangement provided good front-rear and side-to-side weight
distribution.
On an S-10 conversion, we located 2 T-145s up front. Three each in boxes on
each side of the drive shaft (inside the rails) in front of the axle and
eight in a box behind the axle. I have several photos, dimensions, and can
put you in touch with people at each school who can run out and measure
things you have questions about.
You can get some dimensional data from service manuals for the trucks but
there is no substitute for looking at on and measuring it the way you want.
Let me know how I can help.
-Alan
Alan C. Shedd, P.E.
Advisor to Georgia's Electric Vehicle Education Program
(cell) 770-654-0027
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 4:35 PM
Subject: pick-up truck dimensions?
>
> Anyone out there who has been through a pickup truck conversion have
> dimensions they'd like to share?
>
> What I'm looking for are numbers like the spacing between the side
> rails, location of the drive shaft, location of differentail/rear axle,
> location of shocks, etc. ie the starting point for designing possible
> battery boxes.
>
> In particular I'm wondering what the difference is between long beds and
> short beds - is the extra length all between the cab and rear wheels, or
> is some of it behind the wheels? I have a '92 S-10 short bed, so any
> other make or model would be useful to hear about.
>
> I can go crawl around junk yards, but... why reinvent the wheel when
> it's cold out there :-)
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S-10
> 1970s Elec-Trak E20
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lesley,
Hermosa Beach is in Southern California.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&address=&city=
Hermosa+Beach&state=ca&zipcode=&homesubmit=Get+Map
BR,
Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Walker, Lesley R [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Plenty of free EV parking, with no production EVs
availa ble)
> Drivers of clean-air vehicles in Hermosa Beach may someday get a perk
> rarely afforded anybody with four wheels in the space-challenged city
> - free parking.
Sounds good, but where's Hermosa Beach?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info Henry, It sounds like it's is not as easy as NEDRA/NHRA,
but still, I hope someone takes on the challenge. Do you have any info on
any west cost events like this?
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Deaton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: EV speed record
> The ECTA uses the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA) rules with
> a few minor changes. EV's are put into one of three streamliner classes,
> based on total vehicle weight:
>
> Class 1, under 1099 lbs (less than 500 kg)
> Class 2, 1100 to 2200 lbs (500 to 1000 kg)
> Class 3, over 2200 lbs (over 1000 kg)
>
> They also have some fairly stringent safety rules that I don't think your
> average NEDRA-machine would meet. For example, your car will need at a
> minimum a roll bar or roll cage, a fire extinguishing system, and a
> competition seat-belt. The driver will need an SFI-rated suit, plus
> SFI-rated boots, and gloves. The specific requirements are based on the
> anticipated vehicle speed or the speed of the class record.
>
> If you want to run with the ECTA, I'd recommend getting a copy of the rule
> book right away and also contacting someone on the ECTA technical
committee
> to discuss your plans.
>
> So, while the speed for the record seems "low", I don't think you could
> just show up with a NEDRA/NHRA EV drag racing vehicle and be able to
> compete. But, if you do make your machine ECTA-legal, I bet you'd have a
> lot of fun running there. Just think, it's a 1.2 mile long dragstrip!
>
> Henry Deaton
> (still working on my electric LSR motorcycle)
>
>
>
>
> At 10:03 PM 2/16/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >It's looks like they make new class's as they need them, so it should be
> >easy for some of those Power of DC racers, most EV transmissions never
see
> >fourth gear.
> >
> >www.lasvegasev.com
> >Richard Furniss
> >Las Vegas, NV
> >1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> >1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> >3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> >Board Member, www.lveva.org
> >Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:09 PM
> >Subject: EV speed record
> >
> >
> > > http://www.ecta-lsr.com/recordscars1.htm
> > >
> > > The East Coast timing association has an electric class, and the 1
mile
> > > record is ~115 mph. I think there are a few people on the list who
could
> > > raise that a bit. I have heard is it an overgrown dragstrip for a
> > > course, nothing like the salt flats, but it might be relatively easy
> > > pickings for an EV drag car. I don't have the rule book, and it isn't
> > > online (that I saw) though.
> > >
> > > Seth
> > > --
> > > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> > >
> > >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I grew up in Florida and had neighbors that worked on the construction of
the nuclear power plants, I remember the promise of electric so cheap there
would be no need for meters and we would be charged a standard monthly fee,
I fell for it hook line and sinker ;O(
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(FPL raises Electricity prices as fuel goes up)
> I thought Florida had a large nuclear power plant.
> What happened to all that cheap nuclear power ?
> Florida's 2003 electric rates are still less than CT and MA
> (both about 9 cents /kwhr).
>
> On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 01:07:17 -0800 (PST) Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > EVLN(FPL raises Electricity prices as fuel goes up)
> > [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> > informational
> > purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> > --- {EVangel}
> > http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/localstoryA43597A.htm
> > Complete FLORIDA TODAY Feb 12, 12:17 AM
> > Gas prices creep near record high
> > Diesel-fuel prices reach highest ever
> > By Scott Blake, Brian Monroe and Wayne T. Price
> > FLORIDA TODAY
> >
> > Gasoline prices inched within a penny of a record high in Florida on
> > Tuesday and diesel-fuel prices set a record.
> >
> > Consumers and business owners alike are feeling the pinch on their
> > finances.
> >
> > "Gas prices are killing me," said Tom White, a sales representative
> > for Savings Safari in Cocoa, who said he drives about 500 miles a
> > week
> > and is not reimbursed for mileage. White said he is spending $50 or
> > $60 more a week on gas than he used to.
> >
> > "That could be a car payment," White said. "Higher gas prices eats
> > into it all."
> >
> > It's not just gas prices that are rising in the nation's latest
> > energy
> > crunch. Natural-gas bills for about 35,000 Brevard County customers
> > are running about 60 percent higher than they were a year ago -- the
> > result of increased usage from the colder-than-expected winter and
> > higher gas-purchase charges by NUI City Gas Co. of Florida.
> >
> > Local electric bills also have risen, although not nearly as much.
> > But
> > the escalating fuel costs could prompt Florida Power & Light Co. to
> > seek a cost increase for its electric customers later this year.
> >
> > People in Brevard County and around the state are paying roughly 50
> > cents more per gallon for gas than they were a year ago, and about
> > 14
> > cents more than a month ago. Energy analysts predict gas prices will
> > continue to rise, and they already have exceeded $2 a gallon in some
> > parts of the country. In Florida, the price of regular unleaded
> > gasoline climbed to $1.641 a gallon on Tuesday -- less than a cent
> > shy
> > of the record high set in May 2001, according to AAA's daily
> > gas-price
> > survey. The price of diesel fuel, used primarily by truck drivers,
> > hit
> > a record high of $1.733 a gallon Tuesday.
> >
> > Doug Larson, owner of Larson & Larson Towing in Palm Bay, said
> > soaring
> > diesel-fuel costs to run his fleet of trucks could force him to
> > raise
> > his towing rates. He estimates his company is spending about $600
> > more
> > on gas per month than it did a year ago. So far, he's been absorbing
> > the extra cost.
> >
> > "No towing company can continue paying these prices" without somehow
> > making up for it, Larson said.
> >
> > Rising oil prices are at the root of the problem. Crude-oil futures
> > hit a 26-month high Tuesday. The increase came amid new assertions
> > by
> > U.S. officials of a link between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein,
> > fueled
> > by reports of an audio tape of Osama bin Laden asking Muslims to
> > defend Iraq.
> >
> > On the New York Mercantile Exchange, crude-oil futures for March
> > delivery rose 96 cents to close at $35.44 a barrel, its highest
> > level
> > since November 2000. Also Tuesday, natural gas for March delivery
> > rose
> > 12.5 cents to settle at $5.977 per 1,000 cubic feet.
> >
> > Fear of another "significant" terrorist attack, uncertainty about
> > war
> > in Iraq, loss of oil and gas exports from Venezuela and recent cold
> > weather are driving gas prices higher. But that doesn't entirely
> > explain the recent sharp price hikes, AAA said in a statement
> > Tuesday.
> >
> > AAA urged gas wholesalers and retailers to "show restraint in the
> > pricing of their product," and cautioned the gas industry "not to
> > take
> > advantage of the nation's heightened terrorist alert status."
> >
> > "The nothing fully justifies the dramatic increase in gasoline
> > prices
> > experienced across the United States in the last month," AAA said.
> >
> > Fast-rising gas prices also have caught the attention of Florida
> > Gov.
> > Jeb Bush.
> >
> > "He's keeping an eye on it," Bush spokeswoman Elizabeth Hirst said
> > Tuesday. "Certainly, we don't want any price-gouging going on, and
> > that's something we'll be on alert for."
> >
> > AAA advised motorists to shop aggressively for the best price for
> > gas,
> > to look for ways to cut down on fuel consumption, and to keep
> > vehicles
> > properly maintained to increase fuel economy.
> >
> > "The biggest concern for me is the way gas (prices) spiked up so
> > fast," Brevard County School Board member Robert Jordan said as he
> > pumped gas into his Dodge Dakota extended-cab pickup truck Tuesday
> > at
> > a filling station near Suntree.
> >
> > Jordan was surprised he had to pay $1.70 a gallon for midgrade fuel,
> > which he said he uses because his truck's engine "knocks" if he uses
> > regular grade. His other car, he said, uses only premium, which was
> > $1.80 a gallon.
> >
> > Local car dealers said gas prices seem to be on the minds of some of
> > their customers who look for vehicles with higher gas mileage.
> >
> > "What I have noticed is that, during the last 30 days, our larger
> > SUV
> > sales have slowed," said John Theders, general manager of Sutherlin
> > Cadillac, Nissan, Isuzu and Oldsmobile on Merritt Island. "Customers
> > are looking for something that will save them money."
> >
> > Mike Moody, the general sales manager for Mike Erdman Toyota, said
> > his
> > large trucks and sport utility vehicles still are selling well,
> > despite the surge in gas prices.
> >
> > But Moody has noticed an increase in attention toward Toyota's
> > hybrid
> > gas and electric vehicle, the Prius, which averages 52 miles to the
> > gallon on highway driving, 45 city.
> >
> > "Interest has peaked," he said.
> >
> > Dorothy McBride of Cape Canaveral said she is worried that rising
> > fuel
> > costs could put a dent in her living expenses.
> >
> > McBride said she already is cutting down on the number of trips she
> > makes in her 1996 Buick Century, and she's concerned what her
> > electric
> > bill will be this summer when she begins cranking up the air
> > conditioning.
> >
> > "I'm on a very limited income, so it's going to hurt," she said.
> >
> > A typical monthly residential electric bill, based on 1,000
> > kilowatts
> > of electricity usage, from Florida Power & Light, which supplies
> > electricity to about half the state, including Brevard County, has
> > increased from $75.74 in January 1999 to $76.85 this year, said
> > company spokesman Bill Swank.
> >
> > Since 1999, state regulators have required FPL to drop its rates
> > twice
> > for a total of about $600 million a year. But the rate reductions
> > have
> > been largely offset by higher fuel-adjustment charges the utility
> > company passes through to its customers.
> >
> > Swank said, if fuel prices continue to rise, Florida Power & Light
> > may
> > seek an increase on this year's fuel adjustment charge from the
> > Florida Public Service Commission.
> >
> > "Any fuel we buy (to run its power plants and trucks) is a direct
> > pass-through to the customer," he said. "And we try to burn the fuel
> > that's least-expensive, so that our customers benefit from it."
> >
> > NUI City Gas Co. of Florida, which supplies natural gas in Brevard
> > County and elsewhere, also has been hit with higher fuel costs,
> > which
> > it has passed through to customers, said company spokesman Ron
> > Reisman.
> >
> > Because of that and higher usage this winter, the average monthly
> > natural-gas bill in Brevard has increase to $82.01 in January from
> > $50.36 a year earlier, Reisman said.
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe it's Mr Tilley setting up in a new line of "business". :-)
Mike Chancey wrote
> A couple of folks with ads have mentioned getting a weird response
> involving checks form Africa and such, and I have been
> trying to get a
> note out to all of them warning about this scam. A CBS
> report on this was
> pointed out by one of the C-Car egroup members, if you are
> interested you
> can find the article at:
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/01/eveningnews/main527883.shtml
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I (just like many others) have been thinking about building my own Battery
Management System. This is important to me, as I'm planning on spending
$$$$ on a LiIon pack for my Sparrow.
Since I'm a software guy, I like the idea of programmable units. Since I
have worked with digital electronics before, this isn't TOO far out of my
area. (i.e. I can probably build something while creating a significant
pile of toasted components.)
So far, my idea for the basic design is this.
Requirements:
1) Monitor battery voltage, preferably to 0.01v accuracy.
2) Monitor battery temperature. Actually, I'm planning on mounting a temp
sensor at each battery post. I figure the posts are likely to be at least
as warm as the battery, AND this has the added benefit of letting you
detect a loose over-heating connection.
3) Control a Regulator or Balancer circuit (see below for description)
4) Control a battery heater (or possibly cooler) unit.
5) Be able to collect pertinent data on a central computer of some type.
6) do NOT have a rats nest of cabling.
To do this, I'm planning on a small circuit for each battery with a small
CPU (like a PIC16C505).
Use a Voltage-to-Frequency converter for voltage monitoring. This makes it
easy for a tiny CPU to count, and does an effective job of integrating the
waveform over time (thank Lee for the idea) to smooth out the ripples. You
won't get a lot of samples/sec, but you don't need many. I'd probably try
for about 1 sample/sec. (LM2907 or LM331)
Use a digital temp sensor that directly outputs temperature in deg C. (TCN75)
For LiIon, power it with a small DC-DC converter (AN8016), Pba could
probably juse use a 3 pin voltage regulator. Both should have a good
amount of filtering on the power.
Communications with the master computer must be isolated. There are 2
possibilities for this. The first is just to us a set of opto-isolators to
connect to a serial bus. This does leave the serial bus open to lots of
RFI from all the power electronics though. The second method (thank Lee
again) is to use a super-bright LED and phototransistor on each board, and
similar items remoted from the master. The slave and master units don't
even need to be near each other, as the reflected light should be enough,
especially with the low-speed communications that will be used. This makes
it so that there would be NO wires between the master and the
slaves. (just dancing lights in your battery box.)
Regulator or Balancer:
For both of the following choices, the battery circuit would control a DPDT
relay (could possibly use solid-state devices, but the isolation of a relay
is nice). Both wires from the battery will have fuses. (These would be
the same wires used for voltage monitoring so that the system can detect
blown fuses.)
A) Regulator - The relay is used to switch an appropriate load across the
battery. Use another TCN75 to monitor the load temperature.
B) Balancer - You run the output from a single battery charger to all the
units (yeah, wires all over). The relay is used to connect the battery to
the charger - software MUST limit this to a single battery at a
time! (another good reason for the fuses.)
Master Computer:
The master computer really isn't critical. I'm tempted to use a TINI
device as it has all the communications types you could want and is easy to
program.
This is somewhat ambitious, but it looks like all the components could be
had for under $10 per unit. I'm trading cost for simplicity of construction.
This will essentially be an "Open Source" project resulting in schematics,
software, and probably a source for PC boards. I'd REALLY like some help
on this, as I'm quite weak at the analog section of things, and don't have
any circuit drawing software.
If I get a few co-conspirators, we could set up a little design and
development list of our own.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
One thing I was considering for my do-it-yourself BMS was to group the batteries in
pairs.
Two voltage outputs, one temp output (sensor mounted between batteries) and 7.2V to
run it all (well 5V to 8.4V)
Plenty of power to run whatever circuit you like.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: John G. Lussmyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 February 2003 4:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Battery Management System ideas
I (just like many others) have been thinking about building my own Battery
Management System. This is important to me, as I'm planning on spending
$$$$ on a LiIon pack for my Sparrow.
Since I'm a software guy, I like the idea of programmable units. Since I
have worked with digital electronics before, this isn't TOO far out of my
area. (i.e. I can probably build something while creating a significant
pile of toasted components.)
So far, my idea for the basic design is this.
Requirements:
1) Monitor battery voltage, preferably to 0.01v accuracy.
2) Monitor battery temperature. Actually, I'm planning on mounting a temp
sensor at each battery post. I figure the posts are likely to be at least
as warm as the battery, AND this has the added benefit of letting you
detect a loose over-heating connection.
3) Control a Regulator or Balancer circuit (see below for description)
4) Control a battery heater (or possibly cooler) unit.
5) Be able to collect pertinent data on a central computer of some type.
6) do NOT have a rats nest of cabling.
To do this, I'm planning on a small circuit for each battery with a small
CPU (like a PIC16C505).
Use a Voltage-to-Frequency converter for voltage monitoring. This makes it
easy for a tiny CPU to count, and does an effective job of integrating the
waveform over time (thank Lee for the idea) to smooth out the ripples. You
won't get a lot of samples/sec, but you don't need many. I'd probably try
for about 1 sample/sec. (LM2907 or LM331)
Use a digital temp sensor that directly outputs temperature in deg C. (TCN75)
For LiIon, power it with a small DC-DC converter (AN8016), Pba could
probably juse use a 3 pin voltage regulator. Both should have a good
amount of filtering on the power.
Communications with the master computer must be isolated. There are 2
possibilities for this. The first is just to us a set of opto-isolators to
connect to a serial bus. This does leave the serial bus open to lots of
RFI from all the power electronics though. The second method (thank Lee
again) is to use a super-bright LED and phototransistor on each board, and
similar items remoted from the master. The slave and master units don't
even need to be near each other, as the reflected light should be enough,
especially with the low-speed communications that will be used. This makes
it so that there would be NO wires between the master and the
slaves. (just dancing lights in your battery box.)
Regulator or Balancer:
For both of the following choices, the battery circuit would control a DPDT
relay (could possibly use solid-state devices, but the isolation of a relay
is nice). Both wires from the battery will have fuses. (These would be
the same wires used for voltage monitoring so that the system can detect
blown fuses.)
A) Regulator - The relay is used to switch an appropriate load across the
battery. Use another TCN75 to monitor the load temperature.
B) Balancer - You run the output from a single battery charger to all the
units (yeah, wires all over). The relay is used to connect the battery to
the charger - software MUST limit this to a single battery at a
time! (another good reason for the fuses.)
Master Computer:
The master computer really isn't critical. I'm tempted to use a TINI
device as it has all the communications types you could want and is easy to
program.
This is somewhat ambitious, but it looks like all the components could be
had for under $10 per unit. I'm trading cost for simplicity of construction.
This will essentially be an "Open Source" project resulting in schematics,
software, and probably a source for PC boards. I'd REALLY like some help
on this, as I'm quite weak at the analog section of things, and don't have
any circuit drawing software.
If I get a few co-conspirators, we could set up a little design and
development list of our own.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you hook it up this way, the current limits for the windings is still the
same therefore it will only provide 5 kVA to the load and stay within the
thermal rating.
You will only get 5 KVA for the weight of a 10 KVA transformer. This is not
a good choice for an onboard transformer.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Got Isolation?
> Yes, this transformer can be used for 240 to 120. Just wire the 240 to
the
> primary (the 480 side) and get 120 from the secondary using the
connections
> shown for 240. And yes, 480 is often used in a 3 phase configuration, but
> single phase is also used.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 2:38 PM
> Subject: Got Isolation?
>
>
> >
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4665&item=2508325134
> >
> > A 480 to 240/120 10KVA transformer. I assume it could go from 240 to 120
> > as well, but I am not an electrician. And I have always seen 480 as 3
> > phase, but like I said, I am not an electrician.
> >
> > Might be just the thing for a PFC charger if someone wanted isolation?
> > And they could pick the thing up in Ohio.
> >
> > So maybe it's only a good deal to Ohioans, if that's a word.
> >
> > Seth
> >
> > --
> > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if I spelled it wrong, but I have run up against a real hard spot. My
pack has no range left, maybe 6 miles or so. We have had the 24-pack of
Trojans for about three years but they have set still for a year now. I kept
them charged and full of water but now they just won't run the truck
anymore.
I read about the pulse charging and the claims that it would desulfinate the
batteries and return them to good usable condition. Is this true or just
another scam?
I can't afford another 1500 for more batteries, but I may be able to talk my
wife into such an investment as this pulse device.
Any and all 'helpful' input will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Tom Martin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where are you Tom?
Can you get some experienced person come over to test your batteries?
What kind of charger do you have? Many of them can be set up to do
equalization or pulse charging.
I have used pulse charging and had mixed results.
I have used equalization with mixed results.
I have found it best to do equalizations until the capacity stops increasing
and then use the pulse charger to see how much more the capacity increases.
For example: Some 105 AHr Concordes were running about 25 AHr. Equalization
got them up into the high 40's and low 50's. The pulse charger got them up
into the high 60's and low 70's. I have left them on the pulse charger for
over a year and they still make about 70 AHr. They are still in use six
years after the production date.
A second example: Some 145 AHr flooded batteries were in the mid 40's.
Equalization got them into the 90's. Pulse charging got them just over 100
AHr. I left them over the winter on the pulse charger and they only made 20
AHr in the spring. The got recycled last spring.
That is what I call mixed results.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 11:19 PM
Subject: DE-sulfation? pulse charging
> Sorry if I spelled it wrong, but I have run up against a real hard spot.
My
> pack has no range left, maybe 6 miles or so. We have had the 24-pack of
> Trojans for about three years but they have set still for a year now. I
kept
> them charged and full of water but now they just won't run the truck
> anymore.
> I read about the pulse charging and the claims that it would desulfinate
the
> batteries and return them to good usable condition. Is this true or just
> another scam?
> I can't afford another 1500 for more batteries, but I may be able to talk
my
> wife into such an investment as this pulse device.
> Any and all 'helpful' input will be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks
> Tom Martin
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure, the SCTA has events at the El Mirage dry lake near Lancaster, CA and
also at the Bonneville Salt Flats: http://www.scta-bni.org.
Henry Deaton
SF, CA
At 07:20 PM 2/17/2003 -0800, you wrote:
Thanks for the info Henry, It sounds like it's is not as easy as NEDRA/NHRA,
but still, I hope someone takes on the challenge. Do you have any info on
any west cost events like this?
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Deaton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: EV speed record
> The ECTA uses the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA) rules with
> a few minor changes. EV's are put into one of three streamliner classes,
> based on total vehicle weight:
>
> Class 1, under 1099 lbs (less than 500 kg)
> Class 2, 1100 to 2200 lbs (500 to 1000 kg)
> Class 3, over 2200 lbs (over 1000 kg)
>
> They also have some fairly stringent safety rules that I don't think your
> average NEDRA-machine would meet. For example, your car will need at a
> minimum a roll bar or roll cage, a fire extinguishing system, and a
> competition seat-belt. The driver will need an SFI-rated suit, plus
> SFI-rated boots, and gloves. The specific requirements are based on the
> anticipated vehicle speed or the speed of the class record.
>
> If you want to run with the ECTA, I'd recommend getting a copy of the rule
> book right away and also contacting someone on the ECTA technical
committee
> to discuss your plans.
>
> So, while the speed for the record seems "low", I don't think you could
> just show up with a NEDRA/NHRA EV drag racing vehicle and be able to
> compete. But, if you do make your machine ECTA-legal, I bet you'd have a
> lot of fun running there. Just think, it's a 1.2 mile long dragstrip!
>
> Henry Deaton
> (still working on my electric LSR motorcycle)
>
>
>
>
> At 10:03 PM 2/16/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >It's looks like they make new class's as they need them, so it should be
> >easy for some of those Power of DC racers, most EV transmissions never
see
> >fourth gear.
> >
> >www.lasvegasev.com
> >Richard Furniss
> >Las Vegas, NV
> >1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> >1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> >3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> >Board Member, www.lveva.org
> >Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:09 PM
> >Subject: EV speed record
> >
> >
> > > http://www.ecta-lsr.com/recordscars1.htm
> > >
> > > The East Coast timing association has an electric class, and the 1
mile
> > > record is ~115 mph. I think there are a few people on the list who
could
> > > raise that a bit. I have heard is it an overgrown dragstrip for a
> > > course, nothing like the salt flats, but it might be relatively easy
> > > pickings for an EV drag car. I don't have the rule book, and it isn't
> > > online (that I saw) though.
> > >
> > > Seth
> > > --
> > > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> > >
> > >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roy LeMeur wrote:
> There have been a few whistleblowers and apparrently Mr. Tilley has a
> long history of this sort of thing.
>
> Go here for all the dirt:
> http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/fraud/
Thanks, I needed that laugh.
I wonder what Mr Littlefield would have to say for himself now.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's an idea for a cheep regulator that didn't work . I saw some 6 amp
bridge rectifiers for 35 cents at a surplus store and though if I hooked 10
up in series and each drops a 1.5 volts I'd have a 15v 6 amp regulator .
what I found was that at about 11volts they started to conduct 50 ma at 12v
100 ma and at 13v 200 ma . This seemed like to much constant drain to me
although they did hold the voltage below 15v .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Management and Regulators
> Mark Fowler wrote:
> > So, does anyone know where I can get my hands on plans, kits, or
> > actual devices to regulate the voltage on 3.6V Li-Ions, similar to
> > the Rudman Regulators
>
> My first battery regulators were very simple; a darlington power
> transistor, a 200 ohm pot, a car brake light bulb as the power resistor,
> and a zener diode. If you use a green LED in place of the zener, they
> should work fine as 3.6v regulators.
>
> battery+ ____________________
> | |
> green _|_ > power resistor
> LED _\_/_ > (1.5 ohms for
> | > ~2 amps max)
> | |
> | ____| collector
> > |/ |
> potentiometer >/_______| |
> 200 ohms >\ base | |/ NPN darlington
> > |\__| power transistor
> | | (I used MJE1100)
> | |\
> battery- _____|______________| emitter
> http:
>
> None of the fancy features of the latest Rudman regulator, but it's
> cheap if you're going to have a lot of cells.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you weren't on the list about a year a go when Mr. Littlefield was
telling us about the Tilley black box and how we'd be eating crow you missed
some high entertainment . With all the Ideas of how he was going to pull off
the scam and how mad Littlefield was that nobody believed it really would
work. Like a lot of thing ,it turned out to be so simple (wheel bearing)
that nobody guessed it .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lesley Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: Tilley Scam Exposed in the Media
> Roy LeMeur wrote:
> > There have been a few whistleblowers and apparrently Mr. Tilley has a
> > long history of this sort of thing.
> >
> > Go here for all the dirt:
> > http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/fraud/
>
> Thanks, I needed that laugh.
>
> I wonder what Mr Littlefield would have to say for himself now.
>
> --
> Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
> LRW at clear.net.nz
> "Do you like cat?"
> "Yes, I quite like cats."
> "Leg or breast?"
> Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you will also want to be able to control the charger. The regulator
will have to pass enough current to keep the cell from overvolting. You
will probably want to throttle back the charger when the first cell reaches
4.2 volts, and let the other cells gradually come up. This way your
regulator won't have to pass as much current, nor will you fool the charger
into thinking it's still pushing current into your pack when it's really
being bypassed. Keep me posted on your progress.
Dave Davidson
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Battery Management System ideas
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:55:41 -0800
I (just like many others) have been thinking about building my own Battery
Management System. This is important to me, as I'm planning on spending
$$$$ on a LiIon pack for my Sparrow.
Since I'm a software guy, I like the idea of programmable units. Since I
have worked with digital electronics before, this isn't TOO far out of my
area. (i.e. I can probably build something while creating a significant
pile of toasted components.)
So far, my idea for the basic design is this.
Requirements:
1) Monitor battery voltage, preferably to 0.01v accuracy.
2) Monitor battery temperature. Actually, I'm planning on mounting a temp
sensor at each battery post. I figure the posts are likely to be at least
as warm as the battery, AND this has the added benefit of letting you
detect a loose over-heating connection.
3) Control a Regulator or Balancer circuit (see below for description)
4) Control a battery heater (or possibly cooler) unit.
5) Be able to collect pertinent data on a central computer of some type.
6) do NOT have a rats nest of cabling.
To do this, I'm planning on a small circuit for each battery with a small
CPU (like a PIC16C505).
Use a Voltage-to-Frequency converter for voltage monitoring. This makes it
easy for a tiny CPU to count, and does an effective job of integrating the
waveform over time (thank Lee for the idea) to smooth out the ripples. You
won't get a lot of samples/sec, but you don't need many. I'd probably try
for about 1 sample/sec. (LM2907 or LM331)
Use a digital temp sensor that directly outputs temperature in deg C.
(TCN75)
For LiIon, power it with a small DC-DC converter (AN8016), Pba could
probably juse use a 3 pin voltage regulator. Both should have a good
amount of filtering on the power.
Communications with the master computer must be isolated. There are 2
possibilities for this. The first is just to us a set of opto-isolators to
connect to a serial bus. This does leave the serial bus open to lots of
RFI from all the power electronics though. The second method (thank Lee
again) is to use a super-bright LED and phototransistor on each board, and
similar items remoted from the master. The slave and master units don't
even need to be near each other, as the reflected light should be enough,
especially with the low-speed communications that will be used. This makes
it so that there would be NO wires between the master and the slaves.
(just dancing lights in your battery box.)
Regulator or Balancer:
For both of the following choices, the battery circuit would control a DPDT
relay (could possibly use solid-state devices, but the isolation of a relay
is nice). Both wires from the battery will have fuses. (These would be
the same wires used for voltage monitoring so that the system can detect
blown fuses.)
A) Regulator - The relay is used to switch an appropriate load across the
battery. Use another TCN75 to monitor the load temperature.
B) Balancer - You run the output from a single battery charger to all the
units (yeah, wires all over). The relay is used to connect the battery to
the charger - software MUST limit this to a single battery at a time!
(another good reason for the fuses.)
Master Computer:
The master computer really isn't critical. I'm tempted to use a TINI
device as it has all the communications types you could want and is easy to
program.
This is somewhat ambitious, but it looks like all the components could be
had for under $10 per unit. I'm trading cost for simplicity of
construction.
This will essentially be an "Open Source" project resulting in schematics,
software, and probably a source for PC boards. I'd REALLY like some help
on this, as I'm quite weak at the analog section of things, and don't have
any circuit drawing software.
If I get a few co-conspirators, we could set up a little design and
development list of our own.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Henry Deaton
(still working on my electric LSR motorcycle)
What is that? Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Deaton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: EV speed record
> The ECTA uses the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA) rules with
> a few minor changes. EV's are put into one of three streamliner classes,
> based on total vehicle weight:
>
> Class 1, under 1099 lbs (less than 500 kg)
> Class 2, 1100 to 2200 lbs (500 to 1000 kg)
> Class 3, over 2200 lbs (over 1000 kg)
>
> They also have some fairly stringent safety rules that I don't think your
> average NEDRA-machine would meet. For example, your car will need at a
> minimum a roll bar or roll cage, a fire extinguishing system, and a
> competition seat-belt. The driver will need an SFI-rated suit, plus
> SFI-rated boots, and gloves. The specific requirements are based on the
> anticipated vehicle speed or the speed of the class record.
>
> If you want to run with the ECTA, I'd recommend getting a copy of the rule
> book right away and also contacting someone on the ECTA technical
committee
> to discuss your plans.
>
> So, while the speed for the record seems "low", I don't think you could
> just show up with a NEDRA/NHRA EV drag racing vehicle and be able to
> compete. But, if you do make your machine ECTA-legal, I bet you'd have a
> lot of fun running there. Just think, it's a 1.2 mile long dragstrip!
>
> Henry Deaton
> (still working on my electric LSR motorcycle)
>
>
>
>
> At 10:03 PM 2/16/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >It's looks like they make new class's as they need them, so it should be
> >easy for some of those Power of DC racers, most EV transmissions never
see
> >fourth gear.
> >
> >www.lasvegasev.com
> >Richard Furniss
> >Las Vegas, NV
> >1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> >1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> >3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> >Board Member, www.lveva.org
> >Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:09 PM
> >Subject: EV speed record
> >
> >
> > > http://www.ecta-lsr.com/recordscars1.htm
> > >
> > > The East Coast timing association has an electric class, and the 1
mile
> > > record is ~115 mph. I think there are a few people on the list who
could
> > > raise that a bit. I have heard is it an overgrown dragstrip for a
> > > course, nothing like the salt flats, but it might be relatively easy
> > > pickings for an EV drag car. I don't have the rule book, and it isn't
> > > online (that I saw) though.
> > >
> > > Seth
> > > --
> > > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> > >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
