EV Digest 2600
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Wide power band for Lawrence's cycle + trike news
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: [Fwd: Re: Battery Management and Regulators]
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Management and Regulators - evtech list
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: [Fwd: Re: Battery Management and Regulators]
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE:
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) new battery
by Daniel J Rivest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT: What's an SUV?
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Management and Regulators - evtech list
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) LIN bus link
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LIN bus link
by "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by John Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Heaters
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: LIN bus link
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery - Cant Buy It
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Now *that* would fit into a Prizm... :-)
However the big problem seems to be the "Max discharge current". 18 amps is
not really that much at all; even at 300 volts.
Chris
> Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
>
> http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
>
> Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
> non-prorated warranty
>
> Mike Pengelly
> Phoenix, AZ
> '90 Mustang EV
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A Prizm is a Corolla class car. You can always put an extra belt in the
middle. I believe it comes with one. My first EV was a VW bug conversion.
This car has documentation. Cleaning and continuity are the main
requirements. Basic knowledge of what a circuit is. That's about it mixed
with a little mech. skill. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trotman Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
> Chris
>
> I am considering this car very seriously
> But I am a first timer.
> But range and performance looks fine to me.
> I am quite handy but I am wondering if this is the right car to start with
> What do you think is a reasonable price.
> It will cost me $620 to ship it to VA Beach
> And I will assume that the 50 hawkers batteries will need replacing soon.
> I have 3 small kids , do you think they can squeeze in the back.
>
> Thanks
> Trotman Simpson
> Computer Geek in VA
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:06 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
>
>
> Alan:
>
> > Do you have a feel for the cost of shipping cross-country? FL to OR is
> > about as far as you can go roughly East/West and not get wet ;-)
>
> Don't know; it cost $500 to get it from Fla to MD. Really nice tow
company.
>
> > For real? I was under the impression that most of the commercial
> > conversions ran at the low end of the performance curve. I'm also
> concerned
> > that it has an automatic transmission, and finally, that the batteries
are
> > more accessible than they are on the S10s, especially as it will likely
> need
> > a new set. But it does look like a possible way for me to get back into
> > an electric...
>
> For real, at least according to the speedo. Took everything to get it
there,
> but it is a pretty quick little car. No problems doing 70 on a warm day.
> When it's cold like winter.... Well, she is a bit more pokey.
>
> The transmission is interesting. It's actually locked into second gear
> forever, and the motor has all the torque you need. Actually the motor and
> controller have a nice programmed mode to put out lots of torque on the
> bottom end, then once past 3600 it shifts into a speed mode. Really nice.
It
> does not have a torque converter that I can see or feel. Would screw with
> the regen.
>
> The batteries are a real pain to get to. You have to drop the whole pack
> down; which requires a lot of stuff. Not impossible; but not simple. I've
> found a pallet jack, a plate made of 1 inch plywood, 4*4's, and three
jacks
> do the job pretty well. And two engine hoists and an electric tractor :-)
>
> It is without a doubt a nice conversion. These were the guys who designed
> the EV1. Very clean job. The biggest weakness to be honest is it's main
> feature: The fact that you need 300 volts to run the AC drive. This
> percludes using T105's (you're going to fit 50 of them in there how :-)
and
> the Hawker Genesis batteries though tough are small and pack only a total
> size of 15kw of lead. I guess I could put 25 80-100ah batteries in the
back
> seat and trunk, but I like having a back seat and trunk :-)
>
> I love mine.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry guys, they won't sell them for automotive purposes. :( I tried.
-Sam
On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 03:13 PM, Mike Pengelly wrote:
From: "Daniel J Rivest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
Quebec and Kerr McGee.
http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
non-prorated warranty
Mike Pengelly
Phoenix, AZ
'90 Mustang EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Carefull.
This package is designed for UPS, not EV loading. Note that max discharge is
C/4 or 17a. By comparison the other major LiIon manufacturers rate their
100ah cells at 4C for max discharge (= 300a). You cannot even cruise in an
EV at 17a draw.
-Ed T
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pengelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 12:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
From: "Daniel J Rivest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
> Quebec and Kerr McGee.
>
> http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
non-prorated warranty
Mike Pengelly
Phoenix, AZ
'90 Mustang EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jerry... So this will increase rpm. That would help me with my bike
only able to go about 40 mph. I guess the less range comes from the higher
speed and not the weakening effect. Save me from changing the gear ratio.
Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: Wide power band for Lawrence's cycle + trike news
> Hi Lawrence and All,
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I am considering this for the golfcart but I am not
> > willing to do this on
> > the motorcycle. It will reduce range. I might
> > consider going for torque
> > and a higher ratio though. Lawrence Rhodes....
> Field weakening is just what you need. It shifts
> your motor's torque band to the higher rpm's so you
> can go faster with the same set-up or change to higher
> ratio gears for more low end torque and field
> weakening to restore the top speed.
> Done the second way the E used will be less
> watts per mile, more range at the same speed as the
> gearing gives the required tractive effort (road
> torque) at less amps. Also good with heavy loads up
> big hills.
> Done the first way for the same speed will be
> equal watt/mile as the original. What you get is the
> option to go faster. It's only the higher drag at
> higher speeds that would effect range.
> For and A-89 series motor and a good starting
> place for others I use a contactor and a 12" solid
> 12gge copper wire across the field terminals. The
> contacts have most of the voltage drop so it's not as
> much of a short as it seems and always leaves you
> enough field for the motor. Your field windings are
> about 8-9gge.
> Always have it set up so it will not be on when
> starting up as it will cause the motor to draw too
> much current. Using a micro switch at full throttle to
> control it works well as does a horn button type
> switch.
> Darren's post is the way to go for better
> performance.
> For range, an E-tek and a regen controller in SF
> would increase your range maybe 40%. Helps braking on
> those hills too.
> HTH,
> jerry dycus
> BTW my new trike with a golf cart transaxle is
> working great. I have about 120 miles on it using
> about 100w/mile. Time for some drag reduction.
> It's so fun to ride I keep using the excuse that
> the batts need breaking in to go riding ;-)) .
> The cops haven't stopped me so far despite not
> having a tag and such large size for a personal
> electric vehicle, limited to 20 mph, which is treated
> as a bicycle in Fla law.
> Now that it is tested it's time to paint it and
> figure what type of body to put on it. It's set up as
> a pickup now.
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:32 AM
> > Subject: Wide power band for Lawrence's cycle
> >
> >
> > > Lawrence,
> > >
> > >
> > > It sounds like what you're after is a way to get
> > some more torque off the
> > line,
> > > and still keep high MPH on the road?
> > >
> > > How about keeping the gearing high(numerically)
> > for low end torque, and
> > adding
> > > field weakening at top speed. I've read plenty
> > about this, but I'm
> > sticking
> > > with PM motors, which complicates field weakening
> > a bit. It should be
> > easy to
> > > experiment with. Just strap a hunk of wire across
> > the field winding with
> > a
> > > contactor. Start with a high resistance, that
> > will only divert a small
> > amount
> > > of current from the field. Decrease the
> > resistance as you feel it's
> > working
> > > for you. Too low a field current and you'll have
> > big big problems. Maybe
> > even
> > > a safety so field weakening is only engaged at
> > WOT.
> > >
> > >
> > > Good luck,
> > >
> > > Darin Gilbert
> > > Bad Fish Racing
> > >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Prizm comes with three seat belts in the rear. The two by the doors are
3 point; center one is a lap belt.
The doors can also have "child lock" that prevents them from being opened
from the inside. I like this a lot with my 3 year old.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
> A Prizm is a Corolla class car. You can always put an extra belt in the
> middle. I believe it comes with one. My first EV was a VW bug
conversion.
> This car has documentation. Cleaning and continuity are the main
> requirements. Basic knowledge of what a circuit is. That's about it
mixed
> with a little mech. skill. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Trotman Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
>
>
> > Chris
> >
> > I am considering this car very seriously
> > But I am a first timer.
> > But range and performance looks fine to me.
> > I am quite handy but I am wondering if this is the right car to start
with
> > What do you think is a reasonable price.
> > It will cost me $620 to ship it to VA Beach
> > And I will assume that the 50 hawkers batteries will need replacing
soon.
> > I have 3 small kids , do you think they can squeeze in the back.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Trotman Simpson
> > Computer Geek in VA
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> > Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:06 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
> >
> >
> > Alan:
> >
> > > Do you have a feel for the cost of shipping cross-country? FL to OR
is
> > > about as far as you can go roughly East/West and not get wet ;-)
> >
> > Don't know; it cost $500 to get it from Fla to MD. Really nice tow
> company.
> >
> > > For real? I was under the impression that most of the commercial
> > > conversions ran at the low end of the performance curve. I'm also
> > concerned
> > > that it has an automatic transmission, and finally, that the batteries
> are
> > > more accessible than they are on the S10s, especially as it will
likely
> > need
> > > a new set. But it does look like a possible way for me to get back
into
> > > an electric...
> >
> > For real, at least according to the speedo. Took everything to get it
> there,
> > but it is a pretty quick little car. No problems doing 70 on a warm day.
> > When it's cold like winter.... Well, she is a bit more pokey.
> >
> > The transmission is interesting. It's actually locked into second gear
> > forever, and the motor has all the torque you need. Actually the motor
and
> > controller have a nice programmed mode to put out lots of torque on the
> > bottom end, then once past 3600 it shifts into a speed mode. Really
nice.
> It
> > does not have a torque converter that I can see or feel. Would screw
with
> > the regen.
> >
> > The batteries are a real pain to get to. You have to drop the whole pack
> > down; which requires a lot of stuff. Not impossible; but not simple.
I've
> > found a pallet jack, a plate made of 1 inch plywood, 4*4's, and three
> jacks
> > do the job pretty well. And two engine hoists and an electric tractor
:-)
> >
> > It is without a doubt a nice conversion. These were the guys who
designed
> > the EV1. Very clean job. The biggest weakness to be honest is it's main
> > feature: The fact that you need 300 volts to run the AC drive. This
> > percludes using T105's (you're going to fit 50 of them in there how :-)
> and
> > the Hawker Genesis batteries though tough are small and pack only a
total
> > size of 15kw of lead. I guess I could put 25 80-100ah batteries in the
> back
> > seat and trunk, but I like having a back seat and trunk :-)
> >
> > I love mine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Pengelly wrote:
>
> From: "Daniel J Rivest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
> > Quebec and Kerr McGee.
> >
> > http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
>
> Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
>
> http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
>
> Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
> non-prorated warranty
>
> Mike Pengelly
> Phoenix, AZ
> '90 Mustang EV
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I've heard the trouble with Avestor is that their lawyers won't
allow you to buy their batteries unless they approve your BMS.
In general it means no private sales, only to OEM.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: Battery Management and Regulators
> > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:42:28 -0800
> > From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Let me make this clear... If this is just a custom load of a Mk2 Rudman
> > Reg, It
> > will be available next week.
>
> It's dumb regulation type (does nothing until 4.2V, so the cells
> will be sitting at 4.2 different times), but it will work.
>
> > We know from Victor and others that 4.200 should be the
> > limit
> > for charging a Li battery. We don't know where it drops off the voltage
> > cliff
> > and is considered depleted.
>
> 2.75V (from manufacturer)
>
> > We also don't know how low we can still drive the Regbuss Optos to.
> > So...We should have Reg driven charger cut back, but I don't know if we
> > can have a valid Low Batt signal When the Li battery is less than 2.5
> > volts.
>
> You should never allow it to be less than ~2.8V
> >
> > For right now the Mk2s should be able to do the cell by cell voltage
> > regulation. The RegBuss allows a single battery to halt a PFC driven
> > over charge event. These are Feature 1 and Feature 2.
>
> Rich, if you only limiting max, it's not quite "regulation".
> Again, for cheaper BMS it will be adequate.
>
> > Oh yea the cost for the Li ready Mk2s will be the same as for the 12
> > volt Lead Acid Regs. Same thing, different value parts.
> >
> > Can somebody answer the what the Low voltage threshold for a single Lion
> > battery is???
>
> Make it 2.8V, but this has nothing to do with reg. Regs cannot
> prevent over discharge unless talk to the controller as you drive.
>
> > Mark, I am doing just what you said you needed, as fast as we can.
> > Plans??? have PCBs and schematics, and part lists. And hopefully fully
> > loaded hardware very soon.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> > Joe Smalley wrote:
The Lowbatt signal does go back to the charger, then it's opto coupled
to a port that is on the controller PCB. From there it was intened to
pull down a pin on the DCP controllers. Shiftblannk/lowbatt. You could
look at it with the Seimans inverter, and have it toggle some input
warning.
The thing is it's there, and we are now talking about BMS systems that
will have to cut the controller to keep from destroying the Lion Batts.
My equipment is most of the interface that is needed. Lets use it.
clearly when you suck any battery too low you hurt it, if the valid
Lowbatt signal dissapears when the actual battery drops below say 2
volts, You will loose your signal. But on the RegBuss ALL the cells
would have to drop below 2.5 at the same time to loose the signal, since
any reg can assert it.
Victor a BMS system has features that we need. It is clear that some
features have a much higher prioity than others, It is good logic to
offer the most important ones first. Hence I don't offer a complete BMS,
just stuff that solves the most important issues first. Added feature
come along with time.
For all those doing BMS work... getting the simple stuff to work right
should be your first goal. Shoot the engineer, I need DATA!!! I have
been shouting this to Sheer for many months. I still can't log into
goldie and tell you the Temp and voltage of battery number 7. Until I
can.... I won't be taking orders for MK3????? Regs
Victor thanks for the numbers.
.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>
> At 2:38 PM +1300 2/19/03, Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> >Lawrence Harris wrote:
> > > This discussion and development would be a great thread for the evtech
> > > mailing list once/if you get into the nitty gritty details of
> > > the project.
> >
> >I'd love to eavesdrop - how does one subscribe to the evtech list?
> >I found it once but couldn't see how to subscribe.
>
> http://evtech.org/
>
> There's a subscribe box at the bottom.
>
> I haven't seen any activity for a while on it. It often goes quiet for weeks.
>
> >my inverter won't allow to reverse the cell because
> >BMS will reduce driving current or shut off the battery if a cell
> >voltage gets beyond specified limits.
>
> I am curious about this, How does the inverter know when one cell is
> getting low so it can cut back power? What interface does it use for
> the BMS?
It uses CAN, K and L lines; but not all inverters are loaded
with CAN support software. There are also power reduction digital input
I will use, when such input switched from high to low, a different
parameter set programmed into inverter takes effect. Usually I program
this set for lower safe battery current. If a cell still gets
dangerously low under certain load, drive gets inhibited, there is
digital input for that too. Just to reduce the power you don't
need a [CAN] bus.
Of course inverter can't know when a single cell gets reversed,
BMS has to generate such signal. I keep forgetting that my
conversion is odd in many respects, including the fact that I don't
expect to reverse a cell simply because with >30 kWh on board
my daily consumption is about 4-5 kWh, i.e. SOC will very
rarely drop below 75%. Nevertheless, BMS will watch for
the cells and reduce driving current if ANY cell deeps below
predefined value for longer than programmed for.
>
> Yes, that is the problem. I have not found a low cost, low power
> isolated standard that is appropriate for BMS. This is why I am
> making my own standard.
Very american way. Everybody makes their own standard, and this is
precisely what we have today in industry. Not to blame you, go right
ahead, but the next controller guy will decide your "standard" isn't
good enough and will come up with his own as well.
> I call it EvBus and intend to make it an open
> standard that any of us can use. I also plan to make a interface that
> talks to Rich's charger and to others with hooks. This is why I ask
> what your inverter uses to read individual battery voltages, maybe it
> would be possible to build a bridge.
If you're talking about physical hardware implementation,
up to the connector type, it is difficult to standardize even in
OEM environment. I'm sure you know, that Philips' LIN
(slower and simple) and Bosch's CAN
cover all the needs and CAN does not specify physical layer
implementation - you're free to use any voltage levels, opto-isolate,
use fiber instead of wire, etc, and still be 100% compatible.
Simple isolating optocoupler would do it for reasonable amount of
nodes.
If you come up with your protocol, for example Brusa hardware
(Solectria Force drives, chargers) won't talk to it. If you want
"close" market with dew guys maintaining own standards, I suppose
it's fine, but even if this is open standard, no one implements
is. If you have to make your standard AND bridges, why not just
use existing standard?
> So far the system I've designed consists of a ring of industrial
> fiber optics, single master multi slave, running at about 10 kbaud.
> Digikey parts are: FB118-ND and FB121-ND. I would like to use the
> audio fiber parts, but so far they seem to use too much power. The
> spec is weak is, I'll need to test some.
Yes, this is the best approach to re-use existing hardware mass produced
(i.e. audio fiber stuff). As I said, it has nothing to do with comm
protocol, you can use this fiber to talk CAN, LIN, RS232, TCP-IP,
whatever. If you come up with your "standard", it will only be standard
if recognized and agreed upon by other hardware manufacturers.
They already adopted CAN and RS232, there is really no need for
anything else. Microchip makes PICs with CAN interface integrated
in it, I bet you know about it. Besides there are MANY CAN interface
bridge ICs out there.
> The major limitations of the system:
> /one failed module can bring down the loop
> /can not be used for safety critical things without fail safe modes.
> /it is slow.
> The advantages are:
> /interconnections are cheap non conductive fiber.
> /minimum node cost is low. protocol allows for slow processors.
> /target load is low at 2mA per node.
> /can be expanded to control chargers, heaters, instruments etc.
>
> At this time I have hardware, and I have someone working on firmware.
> Unfortunately making a living is interfering with working on it for a
> few months...
>
We all in the same boat there...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Mike Pengelly wrote:
> >
> > From: "Daniel J Rivest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
> > > Quebec and Kerr McGee.
> > >
> > > http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
> >
> > Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
> >
> > http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
> >
> > Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
> > non-prorated warranty
> >
> > Mike Pengelly
> > Phoenix, AZ
> > '90 Mustang EV
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> I've heard the trouble with Avestor is that their lawyers won't
> allow you to buy their batteries unless they approve your BMS.
>
> In general it means no private sales, only to OEM.
>
> Victor
I think the point is more that real batteries are actually starting to be
built in some of these exotic technologies. For as long as I can remember
there as been "the promise" of super batteries, but only recently have we
started to see actual batteries being released to the real world. With
companies like Thunder-sky, Saft, and now Avester actually building
production batteries we may be getting closer to batteries that can take
EV's to the next level.
Mike Pengelly
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> The Lowbatt signal does go back to the charger, then it's opto coupled
> to a port that is on the controller PCB. From there it was intened to
> pull down a pin on the DCP controllers. Shiftblannk/lowbatt. You could
> look at it with the Seimans inverter, and have it toggle some input
> warning.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Deep sag with LiIons means
2V per cell under heavy load is OK but 2.4 with light load or no load
is not. You don't want to get into reduced power mode right when you
need it the most - when you pass somebody.
> For all those doing BMS work... getting the simple stuff to work right
> should be your first goal. Shoot the engineer, I need DATA!!! I have
> been shouting this to Sheer for many months. I still can't log into
> goldie and tell you the Temp and voltage of battery number 7. Until I
> can.... I won't be taking orders for MK3????? Regs
> Victor thanks for the numbers.
Therefore my first modules will not use any buses and work
autonomously. 3V, 6V and 12V versions can be there, but I concentrate
on 3V one. Once software is running on these, at least I can drive
and will make incremental improvements at comfortable pace.
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Joe Buford wrote:
> I want to express my thanks to Leslie Walker and Steven Rose
> in New Zealand for their help and kind words for my
> Toastmaster's speech on EV's.
You're most welcome - it's good to find some of us have more than
one thing in common (same as finding out that many of us are
musicians, just on a smaller scale).
Well done, and maybe one day we'll see someone else from your
Toastmasters club on the list. :-)
--
Lesley Walker
Miss Appropriate
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
"The secret to getting ahead is getting started. The secret to
getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks
into smaller manageable tasks, and simply starting on the
first one." --- Mark Twain
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--- Begin Message ---
What about using these in combination with ultracapacitors? You could limit
the draw on the bats, and use the amps from the ultracapacitors instead.
Might still have problems keeping the draw down, but it might work.
Mark
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:45:22 -0700
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
>> Mike Pengelly wrote:
>> >
>> > From: "Daniel J Rivest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >
>> > > Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from
Hydro
>> > > Quebec and Kerr McGee.
>> > >
>> > > http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
>> >
>> > Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
>> >
>> > http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
>> >
>> > Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
>> > non-prorated warranty
>> >
>> > Mike Pengelly
>> > Phoenix, AZ
>> > '90 Mustang EV
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> I've heard the trouble with Avestor is that their lawyers won't
>> allow you to buy their batteries unless they approve your BMS.
>>
>> In general it means no private sales, only to OEM.
>>
>> Victor
>
>I think the point is more that real batteries are actually starting to
be
>built in some of these exotic technologies. For as long as I can remember
>there as been "the promise" of super batteries, but only recently have
we
>started to see actual batteries being released to the real world. With
>companies like Thunder-sky, Saft, and now Avester actually building
>production batteries we may be getting closer to batteries that can take
>EV's to the next level.
>
>Mike Pengelly
>
Mark Dodrill
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--- Begin Message ---
I apologize:
I mixed up my new battery information with another scam coming from W
Africa. I keep getting them because I have an electric vehicle for
sale.
The new battery looks very promising and the scams keep coming in. It is
the price of gas that is affecting my brain cells.
Daniel
Beyond Oil
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--- Begin Message ---
It's getting harder to know what's an SUV and what's not. Many newer ones
don't have boxy shapes, ouside mounted spare tires and other features that
shout "This is an SUV!". SUVs look a lot more like minivans than they
used to.
Yesterday a vehicle pulled in beside our car in a parking lot and my wife
asked "Is that an SUV?" I couldn't tell while sitting in my car. After we
got out and I had a closer look, I decided it was a minivan because it
had a sliding side door which I'm reasonably certain is not a feature on
any SUV.
So what? Who cares if it's hard to identify an SUV? For most people
it doesn't matter. But for those people who revile SUVs, make insulting
comments and obscene gestures to SUV drivers, complain in newspaper
letters to the editor and on Internet discussion groups and to coworkers,
it would be nice to know what SUVs are. A neighbor has a new vehicle
approximately the size and shape of an SUV. Maybe I better get a closer
look to be sure it's not a minivan before I make any snide remarks about
his SUV when next I speak with him.
Tom Shay
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--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> I am curious about this, How does the inverter know when one cell is
> getting low so it can cut back power? What interface does it use for
> the BMS?
Victor wrote:
It uses CAN, K and L lines; but not all inverters are loaded
with CAN support software. There are also power reduction digital input
I will use, when such input switched from high to low, a different
parameter set programmed into inverter takes effect. Usually I program
this set for lower safe battery current. If a cell still gets
dangerously low under certain load, drive gets inhibited, there is
digital input for that too. Just to reduce the power you don't
need a [CAN] bus.
Well then this is good, because my system will have no trouble
driving a couple lines low to protect the batteries. And as I
understand it, Rudmans system can do that too.
> Yes, that is the problem. I have not found a low cost, low power
> isolated standard that is appropriate for BMS. This is why I am
> making my own standard.
Very american way. Everybody makes their own standard, and this is
precisely what we have today in industry. Not to blame you, go right
ahead, but the next controller guy will decide your "standard" isn't
good enough and will come up with his own as well.
> I call it EvBus and intend to make it an open
> standard that any of us can use. I also plan to make a interface that
> talks to Rich's charger and to others with hooks. This is why I ask
> what your inverter uses to read individual battery voltages, maybe it
> would be possible to build a bridge.
If you're talking about physical hardware implementation,
up to the connector type, it is difficult to standardize even in
OEM environment. I'm sure you know, that Philips' LIN
(slower and simple) and Bosch's CAN
cover all the needs and CAN does not specify physical layer
implementation - you're free to use any voltage levels, opto-isolate,
use fiber instead of wire, etc, and still be 100% compatible.
Simple isolating optocoupler would do it for reasonable amount of
nodes.
If you come up with your protocol, for example Brusa hardware
(Solectria Force drives, chargers) won't talk to it. If you want
"close" market with dew guys maintaining own standards, I suppose
it's fine, but even if this is open standard, no one implements
is. If you have to make your standard AND bridges, why not just
use existing standard?
I am not familiar with the Phillips LIN, is this similar to J1850?
The reason not to use the current standards is that the standards are
trying to do everything, and so have compromised many things in a way
which would not be economical for EVs. The standards I am familiar
with are all optimized for non-isolated systems. For instance, I
don't know of a low cost way to do a inherently reliable multi drop
fiber network. So implementing a multi master network such as CAN
would be very expensive. I only once worked with CAN, and it had to
be isolated. The isolation added about $10.00 to the node (plus the
$5 can node cost) and it still didn't run through fiber. Isolating
bidirectional data lines is not easy.
If you know of a standard that supports our needs then I'd be glad to
hear about it. For the requirements which I feel are important, I
couldn't find one. So here I go designing my own. :-)
Btw, concerning the American way:
My father once told me about the difference between European and
American engineers, this was back in the `70s.
The European engineers make something work and then add parts for all
the features that they can think of.
The American engineers make something work and then start pulling
parts out. If it still works then they leave it out. The last part
that stops it from working goes back in. Then they produce it. :-)
> So far the system I've designed consists of a ring of industrial
> fiber optics, single master multi slave, running at about 10 kbaud.
> Digikey parts are: FB118-ND and FB121-ND. I would like to use the
> audio fiber parts, but so far they seem to use too much power. The
> spec is weak is, I'll need to test some.
Yes, this is the best approach to re-use existing hardware mass produced
(i.e. audio fiber stuff). As I said, it has nothing to do with comm
protocol, you can use this fiber to talk CAN, LIN, RS232, TCP-IP,
whatever.
I would like to know how you manage to use fiber to talk CAN. I am
imagining a single hub with separate pairs of fiber to each node.
That would break the bank of course.
They already adopted CAN and RS232, there is really no need for
anything else. Microchip makes PICs with CAN interface integrated
in it, I bet you know about it. Besides there are MANY CAN interface
bridge ICs out there.
So there is no harm in making one expensive CAN bridge to include
those devices that use CAN.
I'm curious about the LIN protocol, can you describe it?
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
...
> I'm curious about the LIN protocol, can you describe it?
>
> -Otmar-
> http://www.CafeElectric.com
> Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lin-subbus.de/
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote:
> Otmar wrote:
> ...
> > I'm curious about the LIN protocol, can you describe it?
> >
> > -Otmar-
> > http://www.CafeElectric.com
> > Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://www.lin-subbus.de/
>
> Victor
The LIN bus was developed for very simple control jobs like window switches
and other simple control application in an auto. Obviously the overhead for
CAN made it economically not feasible for inexpensive non-critical
applications so they developed another standard! The only problem with
using it for battery management is it is only designed to address 32 nodes
as I recall. You could work around this by fudging the standard but there
you are again not using a standard. The physical portion of the standard is
clever because all of the slaves don't have to have an accurate timebase
because they can calculate the communication timing from the null bits at
the beginning of master transmissions.
This is designed to be very cheap to implement. You can get a pretty good
idea of how it works by looking at app. notes from Microchip and others that
are now supporting it.
Mike Pengelly
Phoenix, AZ
'90 Mustang EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The maximum 18 amps output of these Li-poly batteries is not going to
satisfy the drag racing crowd. Perhaps they could be used in some sort
of hybrid application, where the lithium batteries feed power to a small
bank of of hi power Optimas, which can provide the high amps for
acceleration.
Jay
""""""
Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
Quebec and Kerr McGee.
http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
non-prorated warranty
""""""""
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Which heater core are you talking about? The ceramic element that I got
for WATTABMR from Randy at Canadian Electric Vehicles has had no problems,
and I my pack is always well above 192volts. It really warms the space,
too!
Michael B.
George Tylinski wrote:
> Maybe a hair dryer or space heater element designed to work in Europe.
>
> - GT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Seth Murray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:25 PM
> > To: EV List
> > Subject: Heaters
> >
> >
> > Hi All -
> >
> > It seems that the standard electric heater core that everyone uses is
> > only rated up to 120 volts, and I want heat at 192 volts. Is
> > there any
> > way I can rewire it for a higher voltage operation (it has a lot of
> > connections...) or do I need to consider putting two in series or
> > possibly another heater element? thanks
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> >
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/ http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about using multiple parallel strings with separate small controllers on
each string?
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV discussion list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
> The maximum 18 amps output of these Li-poly batteries is not going to
> satisfy the drag racing crowd. Perhaps they could be used in some sort
> of hybrid application, where the lithium batteries feed power to a small
> bank of of hi power Optimas, which can provide the high amps for
> acceleration.
>
> Jay
>
>
> """"""
> Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
> Quebec and Kerr McGee.
>
> http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
>
> Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
>
> http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
>
> Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
> non-prorated warranty
> """"""""
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote:
> Otmar wrote:
> ...
> > I'm curious about the LIN protocol, can you describe it?
> >
> > -Otmar-
> > http://www.CafeElectric.com
> > Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://www.lin-subbus.de/
>
> Victor
The LIN bus was developed for very simple control jobs like window switches
and other simple control application in an auto. Obviously the overhead for
CAN made it economically not feasible for inexpensive non-critical
applications so they developed another standard! The only problem with
using it for battery management is it is only designed to address 32 nodes
as I recall. You could work around this by fudging the standard but there
you are again not using a standard. The physical portion of the standard is
clever because all of the slaves don't have to have an accurate timebase
because they can calculate the communication timing from the null bits at
the beginning of master transmissions.
This is designed to be very cheap to implement. You can get a pretty good
idea of how it works by looking at app. notes from Microchip and others that
are now supporting it.
Mike Pengelly
Thanks Mike and Victor,
I've just had a look at the specification. It specifies a ISO 9141
style hardware interface (modified for EMI) and also that no more
that 16 nodes should be used.
It does a lot of things that I had planned, such as slave
synchronization to keep the slaves low cost, Unfortunately it runs up
against the same problem of all the other multidrop wire busses,
there is no easy way to run them on cheap slow low power fiber. I
will be looking at it in more detail to see if it addresses issues I
may have missed.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I just want to also mention that although speculation is fun, we
cant buy em. Ever. I contacted them and they said their sales were
directly to business, and at this time they would only sell to the
telecom market. I have a pre-lim datasheet on their EV model, but I
was told it wont be available till '05.
-Sam
On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 10:11 PM, BORTEL wrote:
How about using multiple parallel strings with separate small
controllers on
each string?
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV discussion list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
The maximum 18 amps output of these Li-poly batteries is not going to
satisfy the drag racing crowd. Perhaps they could be used in some sort
of hybrid application, where the lithium batteries feed power to a
small
bank of of hi power Optimas, which can provide the high amps for
acceleration.
Jay
""""""
Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
Quebec and Kerr McGee.
http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
non-prorated warranty
""""""""
--- End Message ---
