EV Digest 2608
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(30 more Sparrow I's, then Sparrow II will take its place)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(GM yanks the plug on head-snapping EV1)-long
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Wilde testifies to a no-brainer senate committee)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(On order to plug it in)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EVLN(Solar Electric Sunrace 2003)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EVLN(Suzuki Hybrid B version comes in at 1.39m yen)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Energy policy pics
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Energy policy pics
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Waah!!!
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Brush advance on Honda
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) BC-20 at 144
by "Tom Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Waah!!!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!/Foxtrot?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(30 more Sparrow I's, then Sparrow II will take its place)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/sited/story/html/121899
How to fly through gridlock
2003-02-18 by Jon Savelle Journal Reporter
KIRKLAND -- If you would like to commute solo in the HOV lanes,
Alastair Dodwell has a deal for you.
Or, more precisely, he has a Sparrow -- a single-seat, three-wheeled
electric vehicle that fits the definition of a motorcycle under
federal law. And as a motorcycle, it qualifies for the HOV lanes.
Not that you could guess that by looking at one: The Sparrow
resembles
nothing so much as a high-top sneaker on wheels.
``Everyone stares at you and waves, and says, `What's it run on,'''
Dodwell said Friday outside his Sparrow dealership, SpitFire Motors,
in Totem Lake.
Made by Corbin Motors in Hollister, Calif., the $14,900 Sparrow is
designed to fill a transportation niche occupied by solitary drivers
in cars.
It will go 30 to 40 miles on one charge of its 13 lead-acid
batteries,
a distance the company claims is plenty for most commutes and short
hops in town.
Top speed is about 65 mph.
``A number of Sparrow owners use them on the ferry system,'' Dodwell
said. ``They get priority loading, and the ferries love them because
they're small.
You can fit four of them in the space of one car.''
Driving a Sparrow requires no special skill. There is an accelerator
and brake pedals, an emergency brake, a dashboard switch for forward
or reverse, and an ``e-meter.''
The meter displays information about the state of the batteries,
telling you how much power and distance is available.
Considering that the Sparrow is designed for one person, it is fairly
roomy. Tall drivers are not cramped.
Only the right side has a door, but both sides have windows that
open.
A hatch in the back will hold two or three bags of groceries.
To drive it, you just turn the key to ``forward,'' release the
emergency brake, step on the go pedal and zoom away.
The Sparrow's electric motor whines under your seat, and if you floor
the pedal, it will propel the thing forward with alarming speed.
Steering and braking feel a bit heavy, which is not surprising
because
the batteries are heavy.
The tiny vehicle weighs 1,200 pounds.
Small as it is, the Sparrow attracts lots of attention. Drivers
passing by Dodwell's shop Friday invariably slowed and stared, their
heads swiveling as they crept by.
Noble Crompton slammed on the brakes and jumped out of his
Thunderbird.
``What the heck!'' he exclaimed. ``Does it fly?''
So Dodwell launched into his spiel again, as he has done every day
since he started his dealership last summer.
He said he has sold about half a dozen Sparrows so far, with more on
order for customers who have placed deposits.
Crompton wasn't ready to order one, but he did walk all around the
Sparrow, taking pictures and asking questions.
A Kenmore resident, he works at Harborview Hospital in Seattle.
``It's an interesting design,'' Crompton said. ``I don't think it has
the range that most of us in the area need. It would be a good
grocery-getter.''
According to Dodwell, operating a Sparrow costs just pennies a day
for
electricity. And because it's legally a motorcycle, it costs less to
license and insure than a car.
Batteries, on the other hand, are expensive. Dodwell said the 13
deep-cycle marine batteries in the Sparrow should last four or five
years, and then would cost $1,560 to replace.
That cost is coming down, Dodwell said.
Battery technology is advancing, too, as is the design of the
Sparrow.
In fact, only 30 more of the current model are available from the
factory, after which the Sparrow II will take its place.
The new model will have a new body style and an AC motor instead of a
DC motor, which will allow regenerative braking.
That means the motor will generate electricity as it helps slow the
vehicle, partially charging the batteries and improving range.
For those who still worry about running out of juice on the road,
Corbin produces two other three-wheeled, single-seat vehicles.
One is the Merlin coupe, which is similar to the Sparrow but powered
by a Yamaha motorcycle engine; and the other is the Merlin roadster,
an open-cockpit hot rod powered by an 80-cubic-inch Harley-Davidson
motorcycle engine.
The coupe is still in development, but Dodwell said the roadster is
available now.
The prices are $18,900 for the coupe and $23,900 for the roadster.
Both can be seen on the SpitFire Web site, www.spitfiremotors.com.
Jon Savelle can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
425-453-4231. TRANSPORTATION TRAFFIC ENERGY CONSERVATION COMMUTING
VEHICLES ALTERNATIVE INVENTION INDUSTRY TRADE PHOTOS by Rick
Schweinhart/Journal: 1)Alastair Dodwell, CEO of Spitfire Motors,
takes
a drive in the Sparrow, an all-electric car. The car is considered a
motorcycle by law, clearing it for use in HOV lanes. 2) Dodwell sits
in the Sparrow, an all-electric car made by a California company. 3)
Dodwell shows the batteries that poser the $14,900 Sparrow.
Technically a motorcycle, the Sparrow can use HOV lanes.
Eastside: King County Journal 1705 132nd Ave. N.E. Bellevue, WA
98005-2251 Phone: 425-455-2222 Fax: 425-635-0602 South County: King
County Journal 600 Washington Ave. South Kent, WA 98032 Phone:
253-872-6600 Fax: 253-854-1006 All materials Copyright � 2003 Horvitz
Newspapers, Inc.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(GM yanks the plug on head-snapping EV1)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
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--- {EVangel}
http://www.dailybreeze.com/content/bln/nmev118.html
GM yanks the plug on electric car
TECHNOLOGY: Manufacturer calls the EV1 unprofitable, but some who
loved and lost the vehicle blame its demise on the company.
By Nick Green DAILY BREEZE
It�s head-snapping, yet whisper-quiet power could take it from zero
to
60 mph in 9 seconds, a performance that left most gasoline-powered
cars an ever-diminishing sight in the sleek vehicle�s rearview
mirror.
It never needed oil, gas or even a key to start it, heralding a
vehicle so maintenance-free many drivers found their worst problem
was
remembering to add windshield washer fluid.
And there were no smog-causing emissions belching from its tail pipe,
because it didn�t have one.
It was the EV1, the first electric car built by an American
manufacturer.
And by this summer, there likely won�t be a single one left on
American roads.
After introducing the EV1 with much fanfare in 1996, General Motors
has literally pulled the plug, announcing last year it would require
customers to turn in their cars at the expiration of their three-year
lease (the car was never available for purchase).
The bottom line is there was just not a mass market that evolved in
California or frankly anywhere else where we were offering EV1s that
made the EV1 profitable for General Motors,� said GM spokesman Dave
Barthmuss, who manages California environment and energy issues. �We
were able to only lease 700 EV1s in a four-year time frame and that�s
after spending well in excess of $1 billion developing and building
them.
Gradually, EV1 drivers� a collection of environmentalists, technology
geeks, government officials and people who simply loved head-turning
cars� are reluctantly turning them back in.
The city of Carson, which leased a pair of vehicles to illustrate its
commitment to environmental leadership and installed two recharging
stations, lost its first EV1 about two weeks ago and will send the
other back in May.
The city of El Segundo will soon lose its EV1 as well.
EV Rental cars, based at the Budget Rent a Car lot at Los Angeles
International Airport, which once had eight EV1s, has lost two and
will see the rest go this summer.
Steve Soboroff, former Los Angeles mayoral candidate and the
environmentally minded president of Playa Vista, remembers without
hesitation the day he was forced to turn in his beloved EV1� Dec.
6.
I had it for six years, I asked them to extend (the lease), but they
wouldn�t,� he said. �To me it was like losing a dog. I loved that
car.
I swear to you I got teary-eyed.
The reaction was much the same from other EV1 drivers smitten by
their
sporty-looking, environmentally conscious mode of transportation.
Some started petitions hoping to persuade GM they should be allowed
to
retain their cars. Others offered cold hard cash.
It was to no avail.
Citing liability concerns, GM insisted the cars must be returned.
Essentially, the company portrays the EV1 as a noble experiment that
technological advances have made obsolete.
Hybrids� cars that use a conventional gasoline-powered engine
supplemented with an electric battery� are increasing in
popularity.
Smaller electric cars, like the Daimler-Chrysler GEM now in use at
Playa Vista, are also being built, although what are essentially
souped-up golf carts cannot be used on freeways.
And GM believes vehicles that use hydrogen fuel cells are the wave of
the future� although it won�t have them on the road until 2010.
That doesn�t placate most people who drove the EV1.
They note that not only are there no other comparable electric
vehicles readily available� Torrance-based Toyota recently stopped
selling the electric version of its RAV4� but GM doesn�t build
hybrids
yet. (GM said it will have hybrid trucks available by year�s end with
a dozen hybrid versions of its most popular models on sale by
2007).
Moreover, GM has sued the state to weaken further its already diluted
mandates that manufacturers must build a certain number of
zero-emission vehicles. Rules like that were the driving force behind
the creation of the EV1 in the first place.
And finally, critics contend, GM deliberately killed the EV1, making
it hard to get one by rigorously screening customers, turning off
potential purchasers by refusing to actually sell them outright and
doing a lousy job of advertising the vehicle.
We had to scream and beg to get on a waiting list for this vehicle,�
said Barry Waite, the Carson official responsible for the city
receiving its two EV1s.
Every step of the way they made it hard to get these cars, made it
hard to keep these cars,� he added. �We have a large cadre of people
here who love these cars� we hate to see it go.
Mark Looper, 38, of Redondo Beach, a space scientist who runs the Web
site www.altfuels.org and rented an EV1 on occasion� he wanted to buy
one, but regarded a lease as a waste of money� is a scathing critic
of
GM.
He sees the company�s supposed backing of hydrogen-powered cars as a
method of promising the future to avoid dealing with the present.
Let�s not let the best be the enemy of the good,� he said. �(The EV1)
has really been a Harry Potter� an unwanted nephew living with them.
It�s been nearly killed a number of times. A lot of people think they
never really gave it a fair chance in the marketplace� they will tell
you they did and it failed. But it�s a different kind of car, they
really needed to do some actual public education.�
Barthmuss said the car�s inherent drawbacks� such as its limited
range
of 140-150 miles� proved a barrier to mass market acceptance.
What we want to do is put our hybrid technology into vehicles that do
not force commuters to make a trade-off,� he said. �We really want to
demonstrate that General Motors is very serious about reinventing the
automobile and has a viable business plan to do so.
The EV1 was a really good experience in some regards because it
really
taught us to move to the next level.
Still, the timing of the EV1s� withdrawal has some shaking their
heads
over what they perceive as a short-sighted business decision.
Gas is heading toward $2 a gallon. War in the Middle East looms. And
the Bush administration appears to be belatedly acknowledging that
global warming is an issue.
General Motors said its EV1s are being donated to universities and
museums, while the remainder will be recycled.
But Louis Weiss, president of the Electric Vehicle Association of Los
Angeles is incensed at the treatment of what he believes is one of
the
best electric cars ever built.
They�re taking all these nice, beautiful cars and crushing them . . .
meaning they�re going to take all the metal and build SUVs,� he said.
�I think they have their head up their corporate fannies.
Publish Date: February 18, 2003
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EVLN(Wilde testifies to a no-brainer senate committee)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/sited/story/html/122070
Port Townsend businessman to testify today in Olympia on behalf of
electric cars 2003-02-20 by KEVEN DREWS
PORT TOWNSEND -- A local resident will ask a senate committee in
Olympia today to back two bills legalizing the use of four-wheeled
electric vehicles on public roads.
Roderick Wilde, president of EV Parts Inc., said he will testify
before the committee about neighborhood electric vehicles and deliver
a letter, approved unanimously Tuesday by the City Council supporting
the two bills.
Mayor Kees Kolff may even show up at the hearing, which will take
place at 3:30 p.m., Hearing Room B, J.L. O'Brien Building, on the
Capitol campus in Olympia, he said.
``It's good for the air,'' Wilde said Wednesday of the proposed
electric car law. ``It's good for the water. It's really a
no-brainer.''
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EVLN(On order to plug it in)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
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--- {EVangel}
http://www.komotv.com/stories/23194.htm
A Solution For Commuting Headaches?
February 20, 2003 By Brian Calvert
[ http://komotv.com/news/qtmovie_audio.asp?ID=23194 ]
SEATTLE - Imagine being the lone occupant in a vehicle, and still
being allowed in the carpool lane.
That's actually a reality, thanks to some new wheels being peddled by
a Kirkland man.
Meet Alastair Dodwell. He drives what's called a Sparrow.
"You get looks everywhere you are -- especially in the carpool lane,"
Dodwell said.
The Sparrow is a one-person electric car. Well, not really a car.
It's legally a motorcycle.
"Under the federal guidelines, a two or three-wheeled vehicle that
weighs less than 1,500 pounds -- even though it looks like something
else, it is a federal motorcycle," Dodwell said.
Meaning you can drive it in the HOV lanes, making it perhaps a
possible cure for the commuter headache.
A dozen Sparrows have been sold so far in Seattle, and there are
orders for several more.
Dodwell says the Sparrow will take you a good 40 miles -- "and then
you find a 110 volt outlet and plug it in."
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EVLN(Solar Electric Sunrace 2003)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-22feb2003-14.htm
Posted: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 8:30 AEDT
Sunrace heads into gloomy final day
The country's best solar car racers will complete their latest
challenge today, even though there are few sunny periods forecast as
they make their way from Canberra to the finishing line in Sydney.
Sunrace 2003 is due to finish at Homebush Bay early this afternoon
after an eight day, 2,500 kilometre journey which began in Adelaide.
The race showcases the latest developments in solar and electric
vehicle technology developed by university science students.
Sunrace media director Allison Waters says the RMIT entry is expected
to lead the field into Sydney.
"Aurora is the hot favourite, but Sunswift the wonderful University
of
New South Wales car, the only car in the world to have made its own
solar cells, and they are pretty efficient solar cells that run on
about 18 to 20 per cent... is really a wonderful exponent of
Australian technology."
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EVLN(Suzuki Hybrid B version comes in at 1.39m yen)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20030220a3.htm
Suzuki looking to get the jump on rivals with 490,000 yen car
Getting the jump on deflation, Suzuki Motor Corp. has taken the wraps
off a 490,000 yen car.
On Jan. 22, Suzuki, an affiliate of General Motors Corp. of the
United
States, introduced four versions of the Twin, a 2.6-meter, two-seater
minicar.
The Gasoline A model is by far the cheapest, at 490,000 yen, and
boasts fuel efficiency of 26 km per liter.
Despite its modest price, the 660cc Gasoline A is equipped with a
driver-side air bag and antilock braking system, although it is
otherwise bare bones, lacking such amenities as automatic
transmission
and air conditioning.
The Gasoline A version costs 60,000 yen less than what has been the
cheapest minicar, Suzuki's Alto.
But a Honda Motor Co. official brushed aside the impact of the Twin,
saying, "Price is only one of various attractive elements" of a
product.
Suzuki has managed to hold down the cost of the Gasoline A model by
equipping it only with a manual transmission and doing away with
power
steering and air conditioning. The more-upscale Gasoline B version
sells for 840,000 yen.
The top-of-the-line Hybrid B version comes in at 1.39 million yen. It
is powered by a hybrid propulsion system that provides it with fuel
efficiency of 34 km per liter.
The price compares with the 2.18 million yen for Toyota Motor Corp.'s
Prius hybrid sedan, which gets 31 km per liter. Both the Twin Hybrid
B
and the Prius come with automatic transmission.
A hybrid car is powered by both a gasoline engine and electric motor,
which increases its fuel efficiency by transmitting kinetic power to
wheels when it starts moving or accelerates.
A hybrid converts kinetic power into electricity, storing it in a
battery when the brakes are applied.
In 1979, Suzuki debuted the first of its series of Alto-brand
minicars. The first Alto sold for 470,000 yen and was popular with
women.
The Twin's Gasoline A, which has rolled into showrooms more than 20
years later, costs only 20,000 yen more than the first Alto.
Technological innovations of the past two decades give the Twin much
higher quality and a chassis structure of far greater rigidity, which
better protects passengers.
A Suzuki official in charge of research and development said: "During
the bubble economy years, standard equipment on minicars began to
assume posh and superfluous features.
"In devising this model, we thought we should return to the starting
point of minicars -- that they are a practical and easy-to-use means
of transportation."
Also this month, Suzuki unveiled its Choinori 50cc scooter, which
sells for 59,800 yen, a record low for any Suzuki scooter.
"Merchandise made in Japan will not perish," Suzuki Chairman Osamu
Suzuki said, adding his company is determined to follow any business
strategy necessary to navigate the storm of deflation.
The Japan Times: Feb. 20, 2003 (C) All rights reserved
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Listers,
I have some great military pics that I think nearly everyone on the
list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I don't have a web site to
post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll paste the pics on them for
you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free to post them on any web
site they might have. If you want to go that route I'll try to e-mail a .bmp
image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm somewhat limited on how
big the files are that I can send.
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would like a copy. Can be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- "Shelton, John D. AW2"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Listers,
> I have some great military pics that I think nearly
> everyone on the
> list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I
> don't have a web site to
> post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll
> paste the pics on them for
> you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free
> to post them on any web
> site they might have. If you want to go that route
> I'll try to e-mail a .bmp
> image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm
> somewhat limited on how
> big the files are that I can send.
>
> John David
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Correct. The packs are in parallel; two strings in parallel of 25 batteries
in series. (2*25)
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: Waah!!!
> > SNIP
> > | Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now
> > the
> > | car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
> > | 26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
> >
> > Errr! Not so. In series gives same Ah (but double Wh).
> >
> > And, BTW amp/hour is a rate of acceleration of charge, I think you mean
Ah
> > (Amp-Hours).
>
> I believe he meant to say 'two sets of these in parallel'
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This looks like premag.com to me. I have never seen one in person.
I believe it is synchronous AC (BLDC) with no or little iron in the
stator. But don't quote me on the no iron part.
and from the website
"Special Note: Some of these motors are still being developed. Please
call further information."
Of course, it could be someone else too.
Seth
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Jim Coate wrote:
> >
> > Interesting, but... like the other AC drives around, it really needs to
> > be run at high voltages (336+ V) to be able to reach the 100 KW
> > potential given the current limits, which in turn retricts battery
> > choice and so on. If it could make 100 KW at 192 - 240 V range I'd be
> > more excited.
> >
> > Assuming a high voltage system so have 100 KW going in, would need 100%
> > efficiency to make the claimed 135 HP. The given 0.975 x 0.92 = 89.7%
> > system efficiency would mean a peak of 120 HP.
> >
> > And I know water cooling helps a lot but a 3" long motor and a 10 pound
> > controller seem really small for those power levels.
> >
> > Guess I'm a skeptic this morning.
> >
> Yea my BS detector clipped on this also.
> nice numbers but the motor cooling is a bit questionable. The controller
> weight is really light also, but I know I could cool it with water,
> That's easy.
> I will bet that the limit if a AC system will always be cooling the
> Rotor.
> 10 lbs is close to the weight of the caps and modules and heatsink. What
> about the controller PCB, and power supplies???
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I'm somewhat killing time right now until the block
gets pulled, so it's a great time to advance the
brushes on the ADC.
Problem: I have no clue which way the motor turns!
Now, I know:
a) Honda driveshafts rotate counter of every other
vehicle.
b) I advance the brushes in the opposite direction of
the way the motor will turn.
That still doesn't help me know which way the motor
turns in its' natural state. (;-p
Mike Chancey, you drive Honda-- Thomas Shay?
Let's refer to everything as we look at the shaft of
the front, or hub-end of the motor.
Thanks "in advance."
(Ah-ha-hah! Gosh it's not taking much to make me
laugh this am).
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A lot of flaws in your assumptions. First of all very few people drive
80 miles per day, that's almost 30,000 miles per year. Most people only
drive 10-12,000 miles per year.
Secondly the average price of electricity is now almost 12 cents per
kwh. However, I'm guessing you are just considering your price for
electricity.
Also assuming this EV is very efficient it would take closer to 20 kwh
to go 80 miles (remember you pay for the electricity from the outlet not
from the battery pack). Even more if you are using some exotic battery
(I'm not aware of any enhanced battery that can match lead-acid for
charge efficiency)
Of course this is totally ignoring the (non) availability of electric
del Sol's that can go 80 miles on a charge (day in and day out for four
years) and only cost $27,500.
P.S. Presumably if it can go 80 miles every day, then it has a 100+ mile
maximum range. What kind of battery pack are you looking at that can
provide 100 mile max range and lasts over 700 cycles at 80% DOD and only
costs $6,000 for a replacement? Oh yeah and it's small enough to fit
inside a del Sol?
Also the vehicle you've speced out is going to cost more than $27,000 is
parts alone (not counting the donor vehicle).
P.P.S. an AC drive system does NOT need a CVT and will most likely run
less efficienct and get LESS range with one.
On Sat, 2003-02-22 at 22:26, Sam Harper wrote:
> Ok fellow conspirators, I did the math. This is what I came up with:
>
> To own a $20,000 two-seater sports car (Miata, whatever, or whatever
> other four seater wannabe luxury sedan), for four years, you will have
> to pay this every month:
> -$20,000 over 48 months without financing is $417 per month
> -80 miles per day @ 24 mpg is 3.3 gallons per day, times 30 days in a
> month is about 100 gallons, times $1.60 a gallon, is $160 a month in gas
> -An oil change a month - $25
> -Guestimated $3500 per four years in preventative maintenance (all
> those tune-ups, fluid flushes, etc.) - $72 per month
>
> This brings on an I.C.E cost of $673 per month.
> Unaccountable pros/cons for I.C.E.:
> Pros - Gas is everywhere
> Cons - Polluting, supplies foreign nations with capital, expensive
>
> To own a $27,500 electric del Sol (or whatever four seater import
> wonder you want), for four years, you will have to pay this every month:
> -$27,500 over 48 months without financing is $573 per month
> -80 miles per day using 15kwh to do it (not scientific number, but you
> know where I'm getting at), times 30 days is 450kwh per month, at 7
> cents per kwh, you will pay about $32 to fill up your tank for a month
> -I'll go as far as to say that sometime in that 4 years you will need
> to replace your pack, costing $6,000 (hopefully prices will have
> dropped a tad, from their current estimated $7,800) - $125 per month
> displaced cost
>
> This brings an electric cost of $730 per month. Although a little
> more, lets take into account some government money. I think you get
> 10% of the purchase price back, so lets subtract $2750 from our initial
> cost, making the vehicle only $24,750 ($515 in raw car cost), or a
> grand total of $673 (the same as the ICE!). Here in Georgia I'll get
> another $2500 back. That makes the car only cost $22,250 ($464 in raw
> car cost), or a grand total of $620 per month ($53 less than the ICE!).
> Unaccountable pros/cons for electric:
> Pros - HOV lanes with only one person, zero direct emissions, EV grins
> on a daily basis, the joy of a nice car
> Cons - Lack of charging infrastructure, shorter range (hopefully not by
> much, but how much do I need)
>
> Obviously the electric is cheaper to me, or equal to everyone else.
> But what would I have in my electric to make a two-seater worth that
> much? Well this is what I think a Distortion Networks conversion would
> have to have:
> -The AC drive system I've spoken about, 100kw, with regen, and reverse,
> and diagnostics, and all those nice things
> -A completely replaced interior (new plastics, new seats, Wet Okole
> neoprene seat covers for that cool feeling, a nice stereo (I'm thinking
> Eclipse and JL Audio)
> -New paint job
> -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity
> -A nice fat PFC charger - think you can make me one for Lithiums?
> Maybe i'll have to settle for less
> -All the comforts of an ICE
> -My trunk (wow, the quarter-ton lithium pack could afford me such a
> thing)
> -An automatic or CVT transmission (I like the CVT better, cuz we can
> program it to stay within certain RPM ranges to be most efficient)
>
> I'm sure I could come up with more
>
> I could probably get enough funding to build ten of these units (around
> the above price, maybe, just maybe). My question to you: Do you think
> there are enough people to buy ten of these units?
>
> -Sam Harper
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy:
I need help again. I have acquired a K&W BC-20 and I need to learn just how
and what I need to do in order to get it to charge my 144v pack of Trojans?
( T-125s )
I have a boost transformer that I am currently using with a basic 'Bad Boy';
this seems to work just fine as the line voltage runs out at the point the
pack is full, around 186v.
This would continue to serve except we are planning to invest another 1300
dollars in a new set of batteries and I would feel better about their
survival if we used a better charging method.
If someone could enlighten me about the resistor needed for the charger and
a drawing showing where the wires go with regard to the boost transformer
and anything else I need to know but don't know to ask I sure would
appreciate it. Gas prices are still going up and that makes the E-truck a
viable option once again.
Thanks to all
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys,
I don't make the unit, I just sell it. I will be getting a sample unit
within the month so I can report my findings.
-Sam Harper
On Saturday, February 22, 2003, at 01:24 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
Jim Coate wrote:
Interesting, but... like the other AC drives around, it really needs
to
be run at high voltages (336+ V) to be able to reach the 100 KW
potential given the current limits, which in turn retricts battery
choice and so on. If it could make 100 KW at 192 - 240 V range I'd be
more excited.
Assuming a high voltage system so have 100 KW going in, would need
100%
efficiency to make the claimed 135 HP. The given 0.975 x 0.92 = 89.7%
system efficiency would mean a peak of 120 HP.
And I know water cooling helps a lot but a 3" long motor and a 10
pound
controller seem really small for those power levels.
Guess I'm a skeptic this morning.
Yea my BS detector clipped on this also.
nice numbers but the motor cooling is a bit questionable. The
controller
weight is really light also, but I know I could cool it with water,
That's easy.
I will bet that the limit if a AC system will always be cooling the
Rotor.
10 lbs is close to the weight of the caps and modules and heatsink.
What
about the controller PCB, and power supplies???
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alrighty, I'll revise.
To own a $20,000 two-seater sports car (Miata, whatever, or whatever
other four seater wannabe luxury sedan), for four years, you will have
to pay this every month:
-$20,000 over 48 months without financing is $417 per month
-40 miles per day @ 24 mpg is 1.7 gallons per day, times 30 days in a
month is about 51 gallons, times $1.60 a gallon, is $81.6 a month in gas
-An oil change a month - $25
-Guestimated $3500 per four years in preventative maintenance (all
those tune-ups, fluid flushes, etc.) - $72 per month
This brings on an I.C.E cost of $673 per month.
Unaccountable pros/cons for I.C.E.:
Pros - Gas is everywhere
Cons - Polluting, supplies foreign nations with capital, expensive
To own a $27,500 electric del Sol (or whatever four seater import
wonder you want), for four years, you will have to pay this every month:
-$27,500 over 48 months without financing is $573 per month
-40 miles per day using 20kwh to do it (not scientific number, but you
know where I'm getting at), times 30 days is 600kwh per month, at 10
(mine is still less, and consider a meter dedicated to the EV) cents
per kwh, you will pay about $60 to fill up your tank for a month
-I'll go as far as to say that sometime in that 4 years you will need
to replace your pack, costing $6,000 (hopefully prices will have
dropped a tad, from their current estimated $7,800, I'm talking about
lithium-ion, in which a pack of 6 units is around 500 lbs. in the
quantity and use these packs find, their price should drop over the
next four years, no?) - $125 per month displaced cost
This brings an electric cost of $758 per month. Although a little
more, lets take into account some government money. I think you get
10% of the purchase price back, so lets subtract $2750 from our initial
cost, making the vehicle only $24,750 ($515 in raw car cost), or a
grand total of $700. Here in Georgia I'll get another $2500 back.
That makes the car only cost $22,250 ($464 in raw car cost), or a grand
total of $649 per month (less than the ICE!).
Unaccountable pros/cons for electric:
Pros - HOV lanes with only one person, zero direct emissions, EV grins
on a daily basis, the joy of a nice car
Cons - Lack of charging infrastructure, shorter range (hopefully not by
much, but how much do I need)
Well this is what I think a Distortion Networks conversion would have
to have:
-The AC drive system I've spoken about, 100kw, with regen, and reverse,
and diagnostics, and all those nice things ($6,500 (this is a little
shy of the price I paid to get a unit from Victor, and this is also the
price I'm looking at paying to buy them from wholesale)
-A completely replaced interior (new plastics, new seats, Wet Okole
neoprene seat covers for that cool feeling, a nice stereo (I'm thinking
Eclipse and JL Audio) (give $2,000in labor)
-New paint job (give $3,000 to an outside company)
-Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity (give $8,000)
-A nice fat PFC charger - think you can make me one for Lithiums?
Maybe i'll have to settle for less (give $4,000)
-My trunk (wow, the quarter-ton lithium pack could afford me such a
thing) (priceless)
-An automatic or CVT transmission ($500) (I like the CVT better, cuz we
can program it to stay within certain RPM ranges to be most efficient.
Now why would a manual transmission be more efficient than a CVT? With
a manual you select between five gears to get the motor within the RPM
range that is most efficient for the speed and power requirements of
the situation you are driving. A CVT can handle these variables
directly and perform the task much more efficiently, with the ease of
an automatic, and with almost the efficiency of a manual?)
-A donor at wholesale (I've applied for my used car dealers license)
($3,000)
Wow, $27,500 for parts. Now granted I havent taken into account labor,
and since all I want to do is break-even on these vehicles, profit isnt
an issue. The point of manufacturing say, ten units, would be to get
my feet in the water with distributors, manufacturers, and suppliers,
to prove we can do what we say we can.
Wishful thinking? Maybe. An attempt? Yup. I like hearing comments,
as it helps to revise my thoughts, so please, comment away.
-Sam Harper
On Sunday, February 23, 2003, at 11:00 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
A lot of flaws in your assumptions. First of all very few people drive
80 miles per day, that's almost 30,000 miles per year. Most people
only
drive 10-12,000 miles per year.
Secondly the average price of electricity is now almost 12 cents per
kwh. However, I'm guessing you are just considering your price for
electricity.
Also assuming this EV is very efficient it would take closer to 20 kwh
to go 80 miles (remember you pay for the electricity from the outlet
not
from the battery pack). Even more if you are using some exotic battery
(I'm not aware of any enhanced battery that can match lead-acid for
charge efficiency)
Of course this is totally ignoring the (non) availability of electric
del Sol's that can go 80 miles on a charge (day in and day out for four
years) and only cost $27,500.
P.S. Presumably if it can go 80 miles every day, then it has a 100+
mile
maximum range. What kind of battery pack are you looking at that can
provide 100 mile max range and lasts over 700 cycles at 80% DOD and
only
costs $6,000 for a replacement? Oh yeah and it's small enough to fit
inside a del Sol?
Also the vehicle you've speced out is going to cost more than $27,000
is
parts alone (not counting the donor vehicle).
P.P.S. an AC drive system does NOT need a CVT and will most likely run
less efficienct and get LESS range with one.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This happens to some of my batteries also. (Delphi 8v) I'm not replacing
the pack. I got a supply of used batteries and am eeking along untill
something better comes along. I'd find the offending battery and replace it
with a used one. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: Waah!!!
> Well, I've been driving the Prizm around lightly this winter, and ever
since
> it got cold, I've only been able to get 12amps tops out of the pack before
> the car was out. (52ah pack)
>
> Thought it was because of the cold, so I did a quick test in the shed.
Took
> a Hawker battery, charged it up, discharged it under C conditions (26ah).
> Lasted for 30 mins before dropping below 11 volts.
>
> Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now the
> car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
> 26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
>
> Sounds like one of the batteries opened up again in the pack. Drat. When I
> dropped the pack in the fall I found one battery that read 12.8 but as
soon
> as any load was placed on it it dropped to zero volts.
>
> Why does this happen if I might ask?
>
> Chris
>
> (yes, yes, I know: I have to replace the whole pack. Waah...)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
0 to 60 in 7 seconds. That is still very good acceleration. What does the
Foxtrot cost now and projected for mass production. Would it be lighter and
only have one motor? Same batteries? Sounds like a winner. If that
vehicle was less than 20k it would be a Sparrow beater. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!
> ---<you asked>---
> -Are you purchasing stock in the company or simply giving a gift ??
> ---<snip>---
>
> I probably screwed up & threw away at least $100 worth of sheet metal,
screws, & wire, etc. when I put Battcar together
> in '95. So I guess I'd like to say this is my contribution to Rick's guys
in Portland who're gonna make the first
> Ferrari-like
> Tango's right.
>
> If I want stock, It'll hopefully be in the form of Rick's Foxtrot since as
much as I'd love own one of the first 10, I
> definitively can't afford it. (see pg. 8 of Rick's Market Strategy linked
from his download page
> http://www.commutercars.com/ )
>
> Jim Waite
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks a lot. This motor is in a 60's Laher three wheel golfcart. I just
got some charged batteries in it and it is very zippy. Lawrence
Rhodes.....There is however a clunking noise coming from the front
wheel..............Now I'm worried about the transaxle.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
> I checked the motors in my basement and they all had numbers greater than
> B141 (yours was a 5BC48JB141). I had a JB896 taken from a 94 EZ-GO,
> so I suspect your's is a very old series wound. I would think the
> series field
> winding is not much different though, I'll have to check the specs and
> see what
> kind of FW resistor can be used.
> Rod
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> >I have a GE 5BC48JB141. 2HP. 36V. A52 3300 RPM
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:08 AM
> >Subject: Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>"give me a kick in the pants."
> >>Actually by weakening the field you will have less available
> >>torque but the motor will run at a higher speed (load depending).
> >>When you weaken the field the motor will most likely run in
> >>a more inefficient portion of the torque speed curve.
> >>If you weaken the field too much you will draw excessive motor current
and
> >>will be very ineffiecient and can possibly damage the commutator from
> >>
> >>
> >excessive
> >
> >
> >>sparking (which will get worse with higher voltage, especially when
using
> >>
> >>
> >higher
> >
> >
> >>voltage than the motor nameplate).
> >>A series motor is really a comprimise to run well over a range of speeds
> >>
> >>
> >for a given
> >
> >
> >>vehicle. Field weakening will probably improve performance as long as
you
> >>
> >>
> >don't over
> >
> >
> >>weaken. I would recommend getting some Ni-Chrome FW resistors from a
> >>
> >>
> >forklift repair shop.
> >
> >
> >>I would not FW more than 30%.
> >>A shunt motor definately has advantages (in my opinion) over the series
> >>
> >>
> >motor
> >
> >
> >>since it is much easier to weeken the field and you can easily regen.
> >>
> >>I have 3 golf cart motors and one NEV motor in the basement, all of them
> >>are GE. 3 of them have clear markings for S1, S2(F1 and F2 on the shunt
> >>
> >>
> >motors)
> >
> >
> >>, A1 & A2. One of the series motors had the nomenclature for the
> >>
> >>
> >terminals
> >
> >
> >>stamped on the endbell casting and it was difficult to read.
> >>Does your motor have a nameplate? If so, what is the GE part number?
> >>Rod
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>S1 & A1 are the positive and negative connections on the A89. S2 & A2
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >are
> >
> >
> >>>>connected. A 1204 is used. For a little turbo action I would use a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >relay
> >
> >
> >>>>so that when I am at full throttle it would activate the contactor and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>shunt
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>S1 & S2. I guess it would give me a kick in the pants.
> >>>>For the Golf cart it has a GE motor with two connections on one side
of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>butt end(Negative and Reverse) and one on the other side(Positive from
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>>>contactor controller). On the other end on the same side as the two
> >>>>connections is another connection(Forward). There do not seem to be
> >>>>any markings on the terminals of the GE motor. I see no other
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >terminals.
> >
> >
> >>>>What are the field connections. Thanks for the help Lee. Lawrence
> >>>>Rhodes.....
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 4:41 PM
> >>>>Subject: Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I must show my ignorance as to where the field terminals are on ADC
> >>>>>>and GE motors.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>The field terminals are marked S1 and S2, and located along the side
of
> >>>>>the motor. The armature terminals are marked A1 and A2, and both
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >located
> >
> >
> >>>>>at the end with the brushes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>If I do this trick with a 12 gauge wire could I use a golfcart
> >>>>>>contactor like the one I am using now?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>First, don't try this with a PWM controller! The voltage across the
> >>>>>field is not DC; it also has a peak-peak AC voltage nearly full pack
> >>>>>voltage! Since there is negligible inductance in that piece of
12-gauge
> >>>>>wire, the peak currents in it would be tremendous!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>So, the only way you can use field weakening with a PWM controller is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >if
> >
> >
> >>>>>you only allow the weakening resistor to be switched in when the
> >>>>>controller is FULL ON.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>But, you are right that a lower voltage contactor can be used to
switch
> >>>>>the field weakening resistor in/out. As long as the controller isn't
> >>>>>switching, there is very little voltage across the field.
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> >>>>>814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> >>>>>Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> >>>>>leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard
Cohen
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
