EV Digest 2632
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(Attorney complains GM took his EV1 away)-long,. and other Stuff
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) What would be the best EV for the average, everyday person?
by Lee Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: LiIons order time
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Elec-Trak for Sale
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: What would be the best EV for the average, everyday person?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: What would be the best EV for the average, everyday person?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What would be the best EV for the average, everyday person?
by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: What would be the best EV for the average, everyday person?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: What would be the best EV for the average, everyday person? Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Rudman Reg Mark I Rev C repair parts.
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Tango in Popular Science
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Rudman Reg Mark I Rev C repair parts.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Found an EV to buy! Hold me back, somebody...
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: LiIons order time
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Evercell reaches cycle 404
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Humphrey, Timothy wrote:
> The second that image popped onto my screen, I remembered reading
> a long long time ago in a pop science type of magazine about a
> concept to fashion a "multi-cylinder" electric motor using a
> crankshaft. I wonder if that was it. The basis IIRC was to use
> electrics in place of IC cylinders. That sure looks like the
> concept I pictured in my head at that time. Solenoid drive
> maybe? Boy how do you time something like that?
The very earliest electric motors used solenoids as "electric pistons".
This was a logical idea, based on the steam engines of the time. But
just as steam engines evolved into steam turbines because they were more
efficient, reciprocating electric motors evolved into the continuous
rotary motors we have today.
One strange concept that I think deserved more work was the free piston
generator. It is basically an ICE whose piston has no crank or other
physical connection to anything. The piston bounces back and forth
between two cylinder heads. Power is taken out of it magnetically, to
generate electricity.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
...
> I'm sorta curious how Victor will make
> out, as our test pilot for Li ons Sorta in J. Wayland's sticker on the
> Zombie" We Break Things So You Don't Have To" Thanks for stepping up to the
> plate Victor. I would imagine ya need a charging system, the good old Bad
> Boy ," metered "zillion foot extension cords are out?
I will use Brusa charger.
> Wanna see Sheer's
> Accord in daily driver service , someday. Victor, didn't you have Evercells
> in yur Honda, too?
No, I never had them.
> I guess you find them wanting, as yur going for Li ons?
If LiIons will work as expected, I won't be interested
in NiZn. But, as all probably know, I don't do what
majority on this list do.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys you might like to look up this site if you are looking for someone
making this sort of thing these days .....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/batpro/
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
> Hi guys you might like to look up this site if you are looking for
> someone making this sort of thing these days.
>
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/batpro/
The principles he describes are sound, but pretty basic. But the website
doesn't appear to have been updated in over a year, and there really
isn't any description of the motor.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everyone! My name is Ivan Workman. I am
currently taking a business class and I am putting
together a business plan for an electric vehicle
dealership/manufactur. I am looking for ideas on what
type of electric vehicles people would be interested
in, price, range, best components that could be used,
etc. Also, what the best types of car bodies that can
be used, kitcar bodies, OEM Bodies, etc.
I am also looking for what type of target market for
EVs would be such as age group, type of people,
interests, etc.
Also, possible locations such as in Southern
California, etc.
Also, what are some of the best electric vehicles on
the market including electric boats, motorcycles,
NEVs, ATVs, etc.
Any info would be great. I just want to find out what
everyone's opinion is and if it would sound like a
sound business concept.
Thanks,
Ivan Workman
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon Niessen wrote:
>
> Sorry, but my memory fails me on the details of this offer.
Depending on how many participate (so far 4 or 5), we're looking at
[constantly changing] figures:
about $130/100Ah cell
about $115/90Ah cell
about $65/50Ah cell
These are my best guesses, not locked until I get firm quote.
And I can't get a quote until all of you respond. This Friday
is cut off date to respond. Payment will be needed a week later.
Shipping will be few hundred, split among participants proportionally
to their share of weight, customs duty = 3.5%.
This is all I have for now.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
Yes its a shame, there were a lot more pictures there as well showing the
motor and describing its workings, but they seem to have gone in favor of an
e-mail link saying if you want to know more contact me.
I have spoken to the guy and he seems pretty onto it
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We heard from a gentleman who is not on the list who has an Elec-Trak for
sale. He used to be a dealer for these, he may also have spare parts. If
you are interested, please contact him directly:
Ralph Schulz
Schulz Electric
Marlette, Michigan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> Yes its a shame, there were a lot more pictures there as well showing
> the motor and describing its workings, but they seem to have gone in
> favor of an e-mail link saying if you want to know more contact me.
> I have spoken to the guy and he seems pretty onto it.
The usual problem is that inventors don't know how to measure
efficiency. They apply pulses of power to the windings, but then don't
have the equipment or know-how to measure how much power is really in
those pulses. Normal inexpensive meters underestimate the power, so the
inventor thinks the efficiency is much higher than it really is.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Workman wrote:
> Hello Everyone! My name is Ivan Workman. I am
> currently taking a business class and I am putting
> together a business plan for an electric vehicle
> dealership/manufacturer. I am looking for ideas on what
> type of electric vehicles people would be interested
> in, price, range, best components that could be used,
> etc. Also, what the best types of car bodies that can
> be used, kitcar bodies, OEM Bodies, etc.
>
> I am also looking for what type of target market for
> EVs would be such as age group, type of people,
> interests, etc.
>
> Also, what are some of the best electric vehicles on
> the market including electric boats, motorcycles,
> NEVs, ATVs, etc.
>
> Any info would be great. I just want to find out what
> everyone's opinion is and if it would sound like a
> sound business concept.
Good heavens! Sounds like you want us to write your paper for you! :-)
A successful business plan for an electric vehicle manufacturer or
dealer will be a real challenge. The problem is that you are trying to
sell a product that mostly doesn't exist yet. There is no (established)
supply, and no (known) demand. This is going to require you to be
extremely creative.
I'll bet at least a hundred companies have tried to get into the EV
business over the past few decades, and almost none of them have
survived. But they will provide you with lots of examples of what WON'T
work.
The ones who have been successful have concentrated on niche markets;
not on-road EVs: Golf carts, industrial vehicles, electric bikes, and
the like.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
We inventors aren't that silly you know ...well some of us aren't.
I made a pulse motor and measured its draw with cheap ineffective meters and
it drew 12 watts, so I loaded it up using my hand on the shaft and its
maximum draw was 25 watts.
So how far out do you think this is in reality ?
It felt like it had a lot of torque, but I really didn't have anything to
measure it with, so instead of just saying "it has a lot of torque", I
decided to apply it to something and see just how much it had.
The something was a push bike, and because the transistor seemed to get hot
quick when I had it loaded on the bench and I was expecting to load it on
the bike, I divided the circuit in half and added a second transistor to it,
to divide the load thus reducing the heating, so I didn't blow my
transistors.
Once placed on the bike it drove my weight and 3 motor bike batteries and
its own weight at 4 kph.
The best thing was it didn't get hot at all there was not even warming in
the transistors so this indicated to me that it was drawing the 12 watts
rather than the 25 watts I had seen on load when testing it.
It really doesn't matter though does it, cause we all know that 25 watts to
move 130 odd kgs at 4 kph is just as impossible as 12 watts.
My web site is www.cable.net.nz/ou and the info on this is in the June
update and the pix are on a link at the bottom of the page called motor3 on
bike if you want to see for yourself.
This as you can see changes the question, no longer is the question "where
did the inventor go wrong with his measurements " but more a question of why
you and others find it so difficult to believe you have been "lead up the
garden path" all your lives ?
Prior to joining this list I had thought that the sheer price of building a
motor bigger than the one I have made, would make it non viable, but seeing
that most of the people here are paying thousands for motors and controllers
I intend to make a bigger unit.
I have a little Suzuki Carry van that I intend to convert to electric and
once this is completed I will build one of my motors to go in it and this
will give proof that a motor can be built that is so much more efficient
than you believe possible now that you will have to wonder why someone
didn't do it before.
Then again maybe you have heard of Ed Gray he had a pretty good motor im
told :)
No offence meant here, I'm just trying to point out that not all inventors
have to rely on results based on these silly cheap meters, some of us can
take our results and put them to work in the real world.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[Ivan why are you sending from Lee's email?]
>EV dealership/manufactur
If it is a dealership, you need to secure manufacturing.
There are few EV companies 'making' EVs for you to sell.
If it is manufacturing, make the EV, and let the internet
be your dealership. Gas cars are already selling quite
well via the internet. Let the drivers be your free
sales force. The first buyers would go the manufacturing
plant, do a test drive, place one on order, and then
beginning to 'sell them' for you as they drive around
(t only natural that people will ask them about their
EV).
>what EV: price, range, components, bodies, kitcar bodies,
OEM Bodies, etc.
The original Think City 'was' going to be sold by Ford
starting at $15000, later $17000, then dropped when they
got cold feet. That window is the best price range.
$15000 for a striped model that can have options added
later (3kw charger, 50 mile pack), $17000 for a package
model (6kw charger, 70 mile pack, etc.). Later when
business is good you can offer higher end/price
performance models.
DC components are less expensive and will do the job for
the entry level EV. AC is preferred but the cost will
make the EV model out-of-reach of most beginning EV buyers.
I would focus on 144V DC components to begin with and
as a minimum voltage. AC systems near 380 VDC are the
best, but I would have to wait until your business grows
before offering the high performance models
(start out affordable, and then grow the business).
The public I have talk to at eaaev.org EVents want a
four adult passenger vehicle. Not necessarily an SUV
(as the automakers want). That is want they want, but
in actuality, they drive alone or with one passenger.
That flexibility is what they seek.
But what vehicle type is also a cost concern. Trucks
and SUVs already have the more robust frame and brakes
for the added weight. A sedan is going to need boosting
of its suspension and brakes.
Finding the right vehicle that will be cost effective,
have the suspension and brakes, and the room for the
battery pack, is the key.
There are already EV kit companies, that market is
max'd. Having a 'ready made' EV to buy and drive is what
the EV market is hungry for. Since the automakers
dropped their EVs, the public still wants EVs. Example:
The http://feelgoodcars.com/dauphine/ EV is four
passenger, but despite demand, it can't be sold in USA.
So the company is now focusing on nEVs/LSVs (sub highway
speed).
Whatever you do, do not offer another nEV (25 mph EV).
That market is saturated, and is not what the public
needs. The public needs a highway speed (70 mph tops),
at least a 50 mile range (at 65 mph), that can recharge
on 120VAC 20amp outlet and 208-240VAC outlet.
I want to stress that a highway capable EV that can
go 50 miles and 70 mph and charge off either 120VAC
and also charge off 220VAC is needed. Not golf cars.
>what target market: age, type of people, interests, etc.
This is where your subject line gets goofy. There is no
'average' person in a country where everyone wants to
be different. People of all ages, look for a vehicle
that will it their needs. With EVs, you first have to
help 'them' see their needs. then 'they' will decide
if an EV will work for them. Selling EVs is not like
selling gas cars. You want happy, loyal customers
that are pleased with their purchase.
There are existing EV drivers to tap into to get an
idea of the different types of people that drive
Electric. Talk to the EV drivers in each of the
EV discussion groups listed on
http://geocities.com/ev_list/
>locations such as in Southern California
The EV market is much larger than S CA. S CA people will
speak up as to where they think a dealership would be
best. But you need to know where the public EV charging
is if you were to place a physical dealership (a large
expense, that is not needed in the beginning).
Focus on where the conductive charging (AVCONs and
regular 14-50 outlets) is at. Their EV charging links
on the second page of my site
http://geocities.com/brucedp/
There is way too much inductive that is now useless.
Conductive is cheap and easy to use.
Let's say you opened a dealership in Ontario CA. A selling
point would be a map of all the free EV charging the
buyer could tap into. If a buyer wanted service or upgrades
they would use the public EV infrastructure to get back
and forth to and from your dealership.
Lets say your EV business is booming, wads of ca$h are
flowing in, and you open another dealership. The location
of the next dealership should have similar available
public EV charging to get to it. But I would make it
two charging points away (50 mile range, charge every 40
miles= 80 miles away)
I suggest you first dealership to be in the SF bay area.
The public EV charging infrastructure is weaker than
LA or Sacramento, but the people with ca$h is in
SF area.
Then monitor where your buyers are from. If most of
your orders are coming from Sacamento, poll those
buyers for a general location they can get service
that has public charging to get there.
Let not for get the future. AZ and GA also have EVs.
At some point other states are going to want to buy
from you. There is public EV charging in those states
too.
The Hertz (a Ford company) in Palo Alto, and SF leased
Think City EVs by the day/week/month/longer. This let
the newbies 'try-out' the EV without a commitment. This
is a very good marketing strategy. It worked so well
many Think City leasees waited for Ford to make the
EV available (which they never did - they dropped the
ball).
A dealership that builds their market by letting the
public try-out the product first, and helping
loyal owners with sale literature (remember each happy
owner with end up selling your product), is a cost
effective sales strategy.
>electric boats, motorcycles, NEVs, ATVs, etc
Look at http://EValbum.com for interesting vehicles
EVList'rs have built, and their are links to other EVs
on the EAA site http://eaaev.org links page.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are two alternate views of where to start...forget California, and
forget public charging infrastructure.
1) College and University towns have concentrations of intelligent,
educated, and environmentally aware consumers. Small college towns don't
require long commutes, and most faculty/staff/students at universities live
relatively close by (they are too busy to afford the time long commutes
take.) All across America are hundreds of these small communities with
built in populations of perfect EV commuters. Take your pick.
2) Existing station car programs point the way: Rail commuters. Almost every
light rail/commuter train passenger is a potential EV driver (Nobody drives
50 miles just to hop on a train for the last few miles.) Plus buying
advertising on the train is cheap and targeted. Why Ford abandoned the
Th!nk when they had this market to themselves is a mystery to me.
Also, I agree on the four seat requirement. Say you are a 'typical' family
with 2 parents and 1 or 2 kids. Your first car seats four and your second
car seats two. Now the four seater breaks down and you all you have is the
2-seater.... logistics are a killer. Interchangability is the key.
Bruce Tucker
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a variation on this college town/city theme... look at the organic
food market that has developed. This is the same market, with educated,
environmentally aware consumers willing to pay a bit extra to get
something a bit better. For instance, go to wholefoods.com and anyplace
they have a store, you could probably market EV's.
And I'll second the part about 'ready to drive' EVs. These folks don't
have the time or land to grow their own food and they certainly don't
have the time or space (or desire) to build their own EVs.
Interesting that the comment about letting drivers be the advertisers
sounds kinda like what Steve is trying at the grass roots level in Florida.
Bruce Tucker wrote:
Here are two alternate views of where to start...forget California, and
forget public charging infrastructure.
1) College and University towns have concentrations of intelligent,
educated, and environmentally aware consumers. Small college towns don't
require long commutes, and most faculty/staff/students at universities live
relatively close by (they are too busy to afford the time long commutes
take.) All across America are hundreds of these small communities with
built in populations of perfect EV commuters. Take your pick.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: What would be the best EV for the average, everyday person?
> Lee Workman wrote:
> > Hello Everyone! My name is Ivan Workman. I am
> > currently taking a business class and I am putting
> > together a business plan for an electric vehicle
Snip Snip
Hi Lee and all budding entrinepuers
> > Also, what are some of the best electric vehicles on
> > the market including electric boats, motorcycles,
> > NEVs, ATVs, etc.
> >
> > Any info would be great. I just want to find out what
> > everyone's opinion is and if it would sound like a
> > sound business concept.
>
> Good heavens! Sounds like you want us to write your paper for you! :-)
> A good economical start for this fellow, Lee!
> A successful business plan for an electric vehicle manufacturer or
> dealer will be a real challenge. The problem is that you are trying to
> sell a product that mostly doesn't exist yet. There is no (established)
> supply, and no (known) demand. This is going to require you to be
> extremely creative.
>
Understaitment of the day, week, MONTH!
> I'll bet at least a hundred companies have tried to get into the EV
> business over the past few decades, and almost none of them have
> survived. But they will provide you with lots of examples of what WON'T
> work.
> Speaking of being in at least 3 in the last 35 yearz, Electric Fuel
Propulsion, Bob Aronson, Bob Beaumont's Citicar, Electro Liner, ME, in
Detroit, one Corvair, a couple of lawnmowers, and a lot of dreams. One, ya
need deep pockets! Only if I knew what I kow now, THEN! Daze of Henry Ford
in Detroit are over. You can't just build it in a garage, knock down the
wall to get it out, and expect the World to beat a path to your door!
Better, go after a need, like Rich Rudman's Manzanita(sp?) Micro. We ALL
need a good battery charger, Rich has been busy filling that need, for
Listers, Damon Crocket, and Otmar, for great controllers, this is a good
approach to the EV thing.
> The ones who have been successful have concentrated on niche markets;
> not on-road EVs: Golf carts, industrial vehicles, electric bikes, and
> the like.Controllers, chargers, motors, hardware.
Right on , Lee! With a positive cash flow to fund the auto biz, from
little 'lectric stuff, like that. Nobody EVer made money just diving in with
a car, like the RR passengrer biz, it doesn't happen! You just don't build a
car just like that. Go ahead, see what I mean, chassis, body, climate
control,doors, making the damn doors and windows WORK, when done, so they
slam with a quality "THUNK!" Try that with a Citi Car. See? We came up short
on that one! The crappy plastic "Windowz" we foisted off on our customers
would never have done on my 38 mile drive in my built-already Rabbit., in 25
degree weather. Anybody can make a NEV, no doors, climatre control, yeah,
they're cute, but I wouldn't wanna do MY commute in one, if I didn't get run
over, or machine gunned by irate drivers I was slowing down, in their rush
to Starbux, or whever they are going, so fast. A real EV hasta keep up with
and pass a few gas rigs, especially if it has " ELECTRIC CAR" inscribed on
the back, as I do. Anybody that has built a sample car-Sunrise, Parade,
Think, or EV-1, has my deepest respect. The EV-1 was built, with love, by a
Great Team at GM, one as a personnal friend. It runs and handles well, hell,
what do ya expect? GM has built good cars since time began. Notice I didn't
call them General Murders, out of respect, here? The Think, too, but that's
not a sports car, or has the power EV -1 has to handle.The Parade, by
refugees from Hyundai, ATT of Korea, sharp little hand made Mini van. Never
got to drive it, but it had beautiful fit and finish. Those guyz must have
been in the Honda fit and finish class, and passed with flying colors.
Maybe start with a custom conversion biz, taking orders for cars on a
one off basis, then offering a stock one in which sells well, a few duz? But
would you run into a liability thing, when one of your customers wraps it
around a tree, on his way home from the Gin Mill, a tad tipsy. If he
survives, sues YOU, Cuz you moded the car as origional, can clain it wasdn't
safe. Guess thats why there are so many LLC outfits arouind, nowadaze??
Limited Liability Corporations? But it still take big bux, buildings,
people, Hah, I KNOW where to get good help. You're reading this, guyz, on
the List. If I could make you an offer you couldn't refuse? The liability
insurance ya gotta have.
Example; the Steam RR tourist biz. To run restored stean locomotives on
excursion trains has gotten hididiously expensive. RR's DEMAND hugh amounts
of coverage, for "What If" sort of thing. Since 9-11 the rates have SOARED,
to the point that one outfit would hafta charge 100 bux a ticket JUST for
the insurance, not counting coal, labor and wear and tear on their restored
Choo Choo.
Botton line here, finally, like waiting for a 200 car freight train to
get off that crossing<g>! If you can put together a plan, and uncle Harry
will spot you a few million, you're out of luck. As it stands now, and the
Big Car Outfits know it, Preston Tucker isn't arriving anytime soon. Their
ship of State sales on, selling what's good for them, and changing the laws,
as they like. CARB, comes to mind. NO! California, you don't have ANY say in
your air conditions!WHY? " BECAUSE WE SAID SO" Sez Washington, best Govt
Oil Money can buy! SO, you can see a few reasons that the EV biz isn't gunna
be easy. I admire youre enthusiasm, Ian,go for it. Anybody? Step up to the
plate. Be my hero.
A nobody talking to EVerybody
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
> We inventors aren't that silly you know... well some of us aren't.
I know that. By no means did I say or even imply that all inventors are
silly. Many great and successful inventors have worked in fields where
they did not understand the physics of the devices they were working
with. However, it is still necessary to apply a sound scientific method.
Make careful measurements, and double-check them more than one way.
Maintain a healthy amount of skepticism. Try to think of all the
possible things that could have accounted for your results, and
eliminate them one by one until you are sure you understand what is
happening.
> I made a pulse motor and measured its draw with cheap ineffective
> meters and it drew 12 watts, so I loaded it up using my hand on the
> shaft and its maximum draw was 25 watts. So how far out do you think
> this is in reality ?
Depending on the meters and the waveforms, the errors could be very
large. It is not hard to produce waveforms that will cause a normal
meter to under-read by 10:1.
A battery is pretty hard to trick. See how long the motor runs off a
battery, then find a resistor that runs the same length of time from the
same battery. If it runs the same time, then the motor has the same
effective resistance. You can measure the current in the resistor and be
pretty sure the real current from the battery is the same.
Another effective way is to use a light bulb as a current meter. When
two light bulbs are lit to the same brightness, the RMS current in them
is the same. The eye is pretty good at comparing brightnesses.
> instead of just saying "it has a lot of torque", I decided to apply
> it to something and see just how much it had... Once placed on the
> bike it drove my weight and 3 motor bike batteries and its own weight
> at 4 kph.
But, you still do not know the values of its torque, speed, or
horsepower. It is not that hard to measure torque and speed (and then
calculate horsepower). You need to do that before you have any real idea
of efficiency or performance.
> It really doesn't matter though does it, cause we all know that 25
> watts to move 130 odd kgs at 4 kph is just as impossible as 12 watts.
No, it's not impossible. A normal person pedalling a "racing" bike at 4
kph is using about this much power. But it is very unlikely, unless your
vehicle was unusually easy to roll.
> No longer is the question "where did the inventor go wrong with his
> measurements", but more a question of why you and others find it so
> difficult to believe you have been "led up the garden path" all your
> lives?
I don't think I've been "led up the garden path" because the data I've
collected and measured is logically consistent and repeatable. I haven't
seen any evidence that there's anything wrong with it. But I'm perfectly
willing to change my mind if evidence comes along to the contrary.
> No offence meant here, I'm just trying to point out that not all
> inventors have to rely on results based on these silly cheap meters,
> some of us can take our results and put them to work in the real
> world.
Real-world tests are fine, too. The problem is that if your improvement
is small, its effect gets lost in the noise.
For example, my EV's range varies from 20 to 40 miles. I can drive
exactly the same route at exactly the same time, temperature, etc. and
go 25 miles on monday, and 35 miles on tuesday. That's a +/-5 mile
variation.
If I make some change, and do a range test, and it goes 5 miles further,
did the change cause the difference? Or was it just luck? I can't tell.
I could try it again tomorrow, and it might go 5 miles less (implying
that the change hurts instead of helps). I would have to test it for
weeks (half with the change and half without) to see if there was any
meaningful change; long enough to average out the normal daily
variations.
But I *can* watch my E-meter that is measuring actual power to the
motor, and see if the change increased or decreased power requirements.
This is where good instrumentation is just a quicker way to find out if
something works or not.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2512272302&category=36331
IRFZ48V MOSFETs qty 5,500.
In case anyone is building a 24V dragster out there ;)
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
> garry wrote:
> > We inventors aren't that silly you know... well some of us aren't.
>
Hi All;
Jumping in on this one. As an avid collector of electric RR books, I
have seen the early daze of RR electrification, proposed locomotives built
with solenoids instead of the piston steam chambers. Some even worked,
picturesque as they were, never cought on. When the first rotery motors were
built, Edison and a liteny of others built working examples of locomotives.
The smooth start in any position motor, like we love today, won out quickly,
for the compactness and simple construction If the recip electric ,motor
had any merit, it would be petty popular, the flashing siderods on a TGV,
Bullet or Acela train would be something to see at 150mph!
> I know that. By no means did I say or even imply that all inventors are
> silly. Many great and successful inventors have worked in fields where
> they did not understand the physics of the devices they were working
> with. However, it is still necessary to apply a sound scientific method.
> Make careful measurements, and double-check them more than one way.
> Maintain a healthy amount of skepticism. Try to think of all the
> possible things that could have accounted for your results, and
> eliminate them one by one until you are sure you understand what is
> happening.
> I Do, I would like to rediscover Nicola Tesla's broadcasting power. We
could throw all the @#$% batteries away! Like they say" Show Me" on the
Missouri tags!!
> > I made a pulse motor and measured its draw with cheap ineffective
> > meters and it drew 12 watts, so I loaded it up using my hand on the
> > shaft and its maximum draw was 25 watts. So how far out do you think
> > this is in reality ?
>
> A battery is pretty hard to trick. See how long the motor runs off a
> battery, then find a resistor that runs the same length of time from the
> same battery. If it runs the same time, then the motor has the same
> effective resistance. You can measure the current in the resistor and be
> pretty sure the real current from the battery is the same.
> Good one! Haven't been able to fool a battery, yet. When you try, it sez"
Enough" and yur looking for a wall outlet pretty quick! Or walking home.
> Another effective way is to use a light bulb as a current meter. When
> two light bulbs are lit to the same brightness, the RMS current in them
> is the same. The eye is pretty good at comparing brightnesses.
>
> > instead of just saying "it has a lot of torque", I decided to apply
> > it to something and see just how much it had... Once placed on the
> > bike it drove my weight and 3 motor bike batteries and its own weight
> > at 4 kph.
>
> But, you still do not know the values of its torque, speed, or
> horsepower. It is not that hard to measure torque and speed (and then
> calculate horsepower). You need to do that before you have any real idea
> of efficiency or performance.
>
> > It really doesn't matter though does it, cause we all know that 25
> > watts to move 130 odd kgs at 4 kph is just as impossible as 12 watts.
>
> No, it's not impossible. A normal person pedalling a "racing" bike at 4
> kph is using about this much power. But it is very unlikely, unless your
> vehicle was unusually easy to roll.
> Whothehell wants to go 4 kph, anyhow?
40 kmph, yeah? OK
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just noticed that the Tango is pictured on page 16 of the February issue
of Popular Science. Nifty!
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 50 of these in my 48 Volt drag car controller.
I have killed two transistors over the years when I was using regen.
I have not had a failure since I removed the regen controller.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman Reg Mark I Rev C repair parts.
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2512272302&category=36331
>
> IRFZ48V MOSFETs qty 5,500.
>
> In case anyone is building a 24V dragster out there ;)
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am planning to put an RV outlet on the outside of my garage with a 14-50
and a duplex 5-20.
Both of them will have GFCI breakers in the box of course.
The local RV store sells them.
Everyone on the list should have these (for standardization.)
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Standard Public Charging Station
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> -----------------------
> Hi All, Did I say electric vehicle charging, Oh, I meant RV outlet, yeh
> that's the ticket, uh, oh I meant outside welding outlet, yea, that's the
> ticket! Yea, that's what we have here, a generic welding outlet that you
can
> plug your car stereo into ;-)
> ------------------------
>
> Yeah Rod, yeah, thats the ticket, yeah, :^D
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I'm amazed. I found this on TradeMe, the NZ equivalent of E-Bay.
http://tinyurl.com/6vr4
If you see a question from "Delirium" that's me, I also rang up and asked more
questions.
I think I'm going to buy it.
Car: 1983 Mazda 323 (a bit old really, but...)
Motor: ADC 9"
Controller: Curtis 1221C
Batteries: 96V (16 x 6V) golf cart type with recombining caps (?)
Charger: Custom-built, probably just a transformer and recifier. 20A-ish.
Range: 40km, less than I would really like but perhaps I can add more batts.
Suspension: Rear springs replaced with ones intended for LPG installation
Brakes: vacuum pump for power assist, metallic pads
Still has seating for 5
Has clutch and gearbox
Rust repairs have been done
Sounds like the brakes could really do with some upgrading, the guy says you have to
drive carefully, and not go too fast down hills.
Is there anything else I should ask about before I hit the "buy now" button?
I expect I'll be able to use the car for short trips: grocery shopping, driving to the
railway station etc. Visiting friends will probably not be on unless I can extend the
range.
When the car body gives up the ghost, as it no doubt will in a few years, perhaps I
can then use the parts to do another conversion.
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March '03
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what was the voltage on a sell and the lbs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> Gordon Niessen wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, but my memory fails me on the details of this offer.
>
> Depending on how many participate (so far 4 or 5), we're looking at
> [constantly changing] figures:
>
> about $130/100Ah cell
> about $115/90Ah cell
> about $65/50Ah cell
>
> These are my best guesses, not locked until I get firm quote.
> And I can't get a quote until all of you respond. This Friday
> is cut off date to respond. Payment will be needed a week later.
>
> Shipping will be few hundred, split among participants proportionally
> to their share of weight, customs duty = 3.5%.
>
> This is all I have for now.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had somebody wave me over the other day and in the back of his pick up was
an gen from and gas generator that was coupled to a water pump motor . The
guy had put some time into it. You know the story , ,I just happened to have
my video camera in the truck and got a great interview with him . I was very
up beat with him and told him he was the first person I had met that had
carried this plan through . His gen wasn't working though and he was going
to replace it. Lee is this a Pro or a con for EV driver's , Being chased by
"gen on a wheel people " . I just kept repeating the word "remarkable" . It
was very enjoyable . attitude is everything\
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
> Garry Stanley wrote:
> > Yes its a shame, there were a lot more pictures there as well showing
> > the motor and describing its workings, but they seem to have gone in
> > favor of an e-mail link saying if you want to know more contact me.
> > I have spoken to the guy and he seems pretty onto it.
>
> The usual problem is that inventors don't know how to measure
> efficiency. They apply pulses of power to the windings, but then don't
> have the equipment or know-how to measure how much power is really in
> those pulses. Normal inexpensive meters underestimate the power, so the
> inventor thinks the efficiency is much higher than it really is.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The chart showing the cast off evercell cycle performance to cycle 400 is
available at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/evercel%20cycle%20404%20summary.gif
May I remind everyone that this is a take out (AKA reject). It now has 400
cycles at 100% depth of discharge and it is still out performing a new
Optima Yellowtop or Genesis E42VP (or EP) at the one hour rate.
These are the other "40 pound sealed 12 volt EV batteries."
Testing is suspended for a while. I have some lead acid batteries that need
attention.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
