EV Digest 2642
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NYCE bikes
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(China's zinc-air Ebuses)
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Thermal protection alarm! PFC forever!
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Power Steering, revisited
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Thermal protection alarm! PFC forever!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN(China's zinc-air Ebuses)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery Choices.
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Comment by Jay Leno on the Tonight Show/Wait a second
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) DCP and XP-1227 problems
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Source for vacuum switches
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EVLN(China's zinc-air Ebuses)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Source for vacuum switches
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVLN(China's zinc-air Ebuses)
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Kostov specs and therapy
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DCP and XP-1227 problems
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Thermal protection alarm! PFC forever!
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVLN(China's zinc-air Ebuses)
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EVLN(China's zinc-air Ebuses)
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EVLN(China's zinc-air Ebuses)
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: The Ultimate Resume (the forklift on steroids), pt. 2
by Jay Donnaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Power Steering, revisited
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) The limo EV is comming. Got half a mil?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Suzuki van conversion.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: rolling resistance
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: vacuum pump
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Thermal protection alarm! PFC forever!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: The Ultimate Resume (the forklift on steroids), pt. 2
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 10:47 PM
Subject: NYCE bikes
> The piece was focused in NY, so a local Ebike/Escooter
> store NYCE Wheels http://www.nycewheels.com was
> interviewed.
>
Hi All;
I have been writing to the NYCE Wheels folks, as it is in MY timezone.
Havent beenn down to see them in person, My NYC layover doesn't start til
730 PM so I'll hafta go down on my daze off to see them in person. They were
chatty and interested in Street EV's, but, of course, can't sell any 'cuz
there 'aint any to be had. WE know that. I like their play on words for a
nane NYCE and all that.
Seeya
Bob
> [A web search for their site was poor. Their main
> page needs to be adjusted to be easily from with
> keywords NYCE electric
> Those are the two catchy items that will stick in the
> public's mind (NYCE as in NY City + sounds like nice,
> and the public will remember that they sell those
> Electric 'things')]
>
> The NYCE rep said that nEV business is good, 60,000
> nEVs (or PETs - person Electric transportation) were
> sold last year, which made a half a million ($US).
>
> The man on the street said if the segway price came
> down he would by it like a hi-tech toy. segway has
> already gotten 30 states to view the segway as a
> wheelchair, thus allowing segways on sidewalks.
>
> ...
> Automakers went about this all wrong. Instead of
> marketing a $60,000 EV1 to compete with SUVs on the
> highway, they should have sued CARB to let them
> sell\give-away Escoots to earn CARB credits.
>
> Then everyone would have one, be EV addicted, and
> want the next improved EV models (building the
> market). This would jump-start the EV market by
> starting-out with cheap nEVs.
>
> Of course the automakers would have to be committed
> to making EVs (which they are not).
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if you do a search of
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=zinc-air+fuel+cell
you will read of a company that calls their zinc air
batts fuel cells (riding the wave of media excitement
of fuel cells - they are clueless, what do they know).
Sorry, Bruce, but on this one point I'm going to have to disagree. A
zinc-air unit is a fuel cell, not a voltaic cell. The reaction is
different, as are the methods of replacing the power. A fuel cell
oxidizes a reactive element (hydrogen, zinc, aluminum, etc) and
produces free electrons. A voltaic cell produces free electrons via
acidic or basic corrosion of a substance, usually a metal.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of air circulation do you have in the controller compartment?
You may want to insulate the compartment (and put it to bed with a nice warm
night light on in the compartment) during the winter nights to keep it warm.
The lower temperature limit might be set by something other than the
silicon. It might be the fan motor bearings or something else that is not
reliable at low temperatures.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 8:48 PM
Subject: Thermal protection alarm! PFC forever!
> Took me completely by surprise. I was just pulling out of the
> driveway for a test run of the D on Saturday when she stopped.
> Turned off the hydraulic pump motor and turned the key on again:
> Power to the fan but no main contactor click. Bummer! So I went
> back into the house to get the contoller's hand programmer,
> turned it on again and the readout said "TH PROTECTION ALARM".
> Wow, here I am in my parka and thick gloves with a dead
> controller that thinks it is too hot? Back into the house to
> haul out the manual. TH PROTECTION ALARM is set by controller
> temperatures < -10C or > 77C. Minus 10C??? Oh, man, I'll never
> get to drive this car! Ambient temperature was -20C, having gone
> up with the warm spring sun from the morning's -42C (or F for
> that matter - when it's that cold C=F). My nicely insulated
> garage had maintained -20C despite the cold night, and it hadn't
> risen much despite the fan in the doorway all morning blowing
> warm air in from the house. Sigh. I love this country.
>
> I have a question for the list gurus: Why have a thermal
> protection alarm for cold temperatures? Doesn't silicon like it
> cool?
>
> It seemed kind of silly, but I did want to get off the driveway
> before dark, especially since the forecast was for -32C. I strung
> 150 feet of extension cord out to the car and put a little space
> heater under the hood, directed at the controller's heat sink.
> Actually ruined one extension cord when a length of insulation
> shattered and fell off, leaving bare twisted wires! No more neon
> green Costco extension cords for me - if it don't say "Made in
> Canada" or "Made in Siberia", or Finland or something, I don't
> want it. After about 10 minutes of heat, the controller was
> happy again and I was off, except for an incorrect start sequence
> alarm caused by some stray wires getting caught in the throttle
> return spring. (I knew I had to tie those out of the way, but I
> have so many balls in the air that one just had to be dropped).
> I freed up the throttle and drove off, not, as a sensible person
> would do, back to the garage to fix things better, but down the
> road for a joyride and over to my neighbors to show off, only to
> get another TH PROTECTION ALARM, followed by another start
> sequence alarm in front of their place. All right already, I'll
> tie the wires up permanently! I'll put a heater on the heat sink!
> I'll draw more current, so it keeps itself warm. I bet Berube
> never had a controller freeze up!
>
> Today things went a bit better. A quick shot of heat to warm up
> the controller and Gisele and I were off, no problem except for
> the stuck throttle due to me stupidly not replacing the throttle
> return spring. Sheesh! Maybe it's time to give up for the day
> and get some rest, eat some brain food or something...
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmonton
>
> Zapi Sepex controller, Kostov motor, custom parts from CEV.
>
> P.S. Memo to Rich: The PFC-50 works fine in the p.f.c.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well sports fans, I'm glad I broached this issue
early, b/c it's reared it's ugly head again. Here's
the scoop:
Problem: I have hard steel lines for power steering
right where I need batteries.
Potential Solutions:
a) Pull stock steering unit and replace with manual
system. Cost is $200 + labor, unless I do it. (it
doesn't look _too_ bad in the manual). With 800 lbs.
batteries, it will of course require a bit of muscle
to steer with this solution. I don't mind, but
getting the wife to _enjoy_ the car is a goal.
b) Replace pulley pump with electric pump. Add
flexible steel lines, and re-route. Cost is $800+,
(Can EV/Randy Holmquist has this unit) but we get the
power steering. Wow, that must be a heck of a motor
for 800, considering I got an 8" for about that! (;-p
c) Figure out an electronic power steering system
that is available off-the-shelf which would fit a
Civic. Cost: Unkown.
Any brilliant words of wisdom are appreciated!
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a guess here but the silicon in the power transistors is a crystal
(or at least a crystalline structure). Perhaps there is a concern about
the crystal cracking due to the rapid temperature change from
sub-freezing to warm (with the power going through it).
> I have a question for the list gurus: Why have a thermal
> protection alarm for cold temperatures? Doesn't silicon like it
> cool?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that Zinc-air fits the general criteria of being a fuel
cell.
The Fuel (zinc) reacts with air to produce electricity, it has no
emissions and once the fuel is consumed the spent fuel has to be removed
from the fuel cell and replaced with fresh fuel.
How is this functionally different from any other fuel cell?
You can fully discharge them more than once so they don't meet the
definition of a primary battery, and you can NOT electrically recharge
them so they don't meet the definition of a secondary (rechargeable)
battery.
P.S. do zinc air batteries/fuel cells have electrolyte? That is a part
of the definition for batteries.
On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 15:16, Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
> On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 13:10, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> > if you do a search of
> > http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=zinc-air+fuel+cell
> > you will read of a company that calls their zinc air
> > batts fuel cells (riding the wave of media excitement
> > of fuel cells - they are clueless, what do they know).
>
> Good. I was afraid that my brain had stopped working since being
> unemployed.
>
>
> > The product is a zinc air battery that is 'mechanically'
> > recharged (large flat cartridges are removed and
> > replaced).
>
> Exactly what I had thought.
>
> Lonnie
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2003-03-08 at 09:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am still trying to decide on batteries for my E Fiero project. I have
> stripped out all the ICE stuff and found gobs of room for batteries. The
> front has quite a bit of volume if I choose VRLA batteries like Hawkers. I am
> in the process of constructing the battery box supports and have to make a
> decision soon on the batteries. I plan on running a 192 volt pack to keep
> the current draw down on the batteries. This should make the batteries
> provide more of their rated capacity,
Doesn't work that way. If you use the same weight in batteries then you
end up using smaller batteries to get the high voltage. Even though the
current is lower, the batteries capacity is also lower so you end up
running them at the same relative discharge rate. I.e 25 amps from a 25
ah battery is 1C, 50 amps from a 50ah battery is 1C, two 25 amp
batteries running at 25 amps are the same as one 50 ah battery running
at 50 amps.
You might get a small improvement from higher voltage due to the smaller
I2R losses, but this is generally offset by the fact that smaller
batteries tend to have more wasted weight (percentage wise). I.e. the
weight in of the case and the terminals provides zero power. More
batteries have more terminals, intercell connections, and plastic in the
cases; not to mention more connections to potentially loose power at.
Also FWIW most people report that Hawkers REQUIRE high charging current
to keep them happy. This makes for more expensive chargers, unless you
were already planning on buying a PFC-50.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The key phrase here is "to the general public" as I recall the rangers
and S-10s were only sold as "fleet" vehicles. Now it is true that some
clever individuals managed to buy a "fleet" of one, but they certainly
weren't marketed that way.
I don't know about the Epics since I can't think of anyone that managed
to buy one.
On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 14:37, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Wait a second. When you say the Rav4 was the only EV sold by "Major"
> manufacturers are you including Epics, S-10s or Rangers. I bet there were a
> lot of Evs manufacturered by the "Majors" that are floating around and in
> use. Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Thurber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 8:56 AM
> Subject: EV Comment by Jay Leno on the Tonight Show
>
>
> > Jay Leno's recent comment about a dealer selling an
> > electric car when gas hits $25/gallon was
> > irresponsible. The automakers have gone to great
> > lengths with their PR campaigns to convince people
> > that not only are battery electric vehicles a bad
> > idea, but that nobody wants them. It has been a
> > struggle for them since a survey of Californian's in
> > the mid 90-s revealed that a vast majority of people
> > liked the idea. Despite this almost decade long PR
> > campaign, the truth is that every single electric car
> > made by the major automakers has been leased (or sold
> > in one case) immediately to people on waiting lists to
> > get them. Sadly, only one electric car, Toyota's
> > Rav4-EV was ever even offered for sale to the general
> > public. GM's EV1 was never offered for sale to anyone,
> > despite numerous offers by drivers that went so far as
> > to release GM from any future liability or maintenance
> > responsibility. The comment by Mr Leno not only
> > capitalized on the progress made by the automaker's PR
> > campaign in some people's minds, but, tragically, lent
> > it credence as well. Thanks to this constant
> > misinformation campaign and a relentless political and
> > legal campaign waged against a now spineless
> > California Air Resource Board, we are now at the truly
> > tragic point where this board is poised to later this
> > month eliminate *permanently* any requirements for the
> > sale of Zero Emission vehicles now or in the future.
> >
> > Is a cheap laugh actually worth the huge price we
> > continue to pay in terms of air quality, public
> > health, and national security while we remain a slave
> > to the oil industry and the internal combustion
> > engine? You can do better Jay.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm having some problems with my DCP and my XP-1227 and wonder if any one
may have some ideas.
First the DCP controller. Turn it on. It powers up fine and proper lights
come on. Only problem is that smell of something electrical burning coming
from inside the controller. I was determined to drive the car anyway so I
made my errands and the car performed great but the electrical burning smell
didn't seem to go away.
I suppose I'll take it out and send it back to Damon to see if he can find
the cause of the problem before I really blow it. The controller blew last
year and Damon was able to repair it. Still don't know what caused that. My
wife was driving the car and it was running fine at 55 mph up a slight grade
pulling 200 amps and then the controller just smoked. She was actually able
to coast a half mile home from there.
This incident is when I noticed the charger starting to trip. After she made
it home I tried charging it and it tripped even with the circuit breaker
turned off from the positive side of the controller (I just have the single
circuit breaker). I called Damon to tell him about the controller and
mentioned the charger tripping and he said to disconnect the negative side
as well which solved the problem.
A couple weeks later, after I received the controller back from Damon
everything was working fine for several months but just within the past
couple months the charger started tripping again. So I recalled what Damon
said and disconnected the negative side from the (-) of the controller to
the battery and it stopped tripping. This is where the motor comes in. I did
one test where I left the cables connected to the controller and
disconnected the motor and the charger worked great with no problems so the
tripping is caused by some short within the motor.
I've had the car ten years and this is the second time this has happened
with a short in the motor. My first 8" inch motor developed a short within
three years causing the charger to trip. I was able to still use it and
charge it by turning off the circuit breaker. A practice I should have been
doing anyway. A couple years later I replaced that motor with an XP-1227.
Now about 4 years after getting that one I'm having the problem again.
Any ideas??
Thanks
Chip Gribben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wilde sells em cheap. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 2:55 PM
Subject: Source for vacuum switches
> Question for those with vacuum brakes:
>
> The switch on my Prizm's vacuum system comes on at way too low a pressure
in
> the system. Result is that the car brakes go hard *before* the pump comes
> on.
>
> This can be fatal.
>
> I've gotten around it by bypassing the switch so the pump runs all the
time.
> Loud; I really need a new switch.
>
> Does anyone make these calibrated for a car's brake system?
>
> Thanks!
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael stresses the precise term,
whereas I use ones the layman can relate to.
It is not as precise, but when I try to explain
in detail to the public using the precise terms,
I loose the public's interest, and in some cases
raise their ire (they do not want to hear that
what 'they know', is wrong or to be corrected).
I have found if you work within their knowledge
(what the media has told them), you can hold their
attention longer and possibly going away thinking
positive of EVs.
So while you are right from a semantic or definition
standpoint, to the layman, a fuel cell uses fuel (ie
a liquid or a gas). So that zinc 'thing' is like a
battery. It isn't correct, but that's the way they
were told to think of fuel cells.
I feel sorry for the public. Their one source of
information is the media, and the media are
clue-less, get it wrong or screw it up when they go
to print.
I encourage you Michael to always try to use precise
terms with the public. I hope you are able to keep
their attention longer than I have, and hopefully you
do not see their eyes roll back and glaze over when
they get overwhelmed with detail.
...
This reminds me of Saturday's SJEAA meet. We had three
newbies. The officer leading the group did not follow
our usual method of letting the newbies go first.
During the round table, one of our techie types got
up and talked for 40 minutes about induction motors
in complete detail using precise terms. It was great.
But I could read one of the newbie's body language, that
all this low level detail, left that newbie in the dark
(they could not understand or relate).
As I feared, one of the newbies got up and left the
meeting early. He must have been fed up with all that
precise detail. I think he just wanted to know about
those Electric car 'things'.
...
Another experience was last week at one of the auto
repair chain stores. A while ago I had a master
cylinder and proportion valve replaced. I had to take
my EV back in because it was slowly losing brake fuild
(the mechanic didn't tighten it right the first time).
During the work, I talked to the man at the desk, and
after the work, to the mechanic. They both liked the
quietness of my ol' Blazer conversion.
I found it surprising that their company had not
trained them on hybrids yet. They did not even know
what a fuel cell was.
I had an opportunity to plant EV knowledge seeds, but
not if I had gotten 'too' precise.
As in the past, I had good success talking to each man,
letting them know about hybrids and fcvs. So, I believe
we did well that day by using terms they could
understand.
...
So, I have no problem being corrected, and look
forward to it again (I can always learn more). But all
will continue to see me use layman terms. I have a
better success rate and a higher hit-ratio when
talking to the public when I do.
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
KTA also has them, but the nice adjustable one (5-20in vacuum) is
probably not what you would call cheap ($85), and is rather
large.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Source for vacuum switches
> Wilde sells em cheap. Lawrence Rhodes......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 2:55 PM
> Subject: Source for vacuum switches
>
>
> > Question for those with vacuum brakes:
> >
> > The switch on my Prizm's vacuum system comes on at way too
low a pressure
> in
> > the system. Result is that the car brakes go hard *before*
the pump comes
> > on.
> >
> > This can be fatal.
> >
> > I've gotten around it by bypassing the switch so the pump
runs all the
> time.
> > Loud; I really need a new switch.
> >
> > Does anyone make these calibrated for a car's brake system?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Chris
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 21:16, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> You can fully discharge them more than once so they don't meet the
> definition of a primary battery, and you can NOT electrically recharge
> them so they don't meet the definition of a secondary (rechargeable)
> battery.
OK. THAT is where my information had a hole in it. I thought it could
be mechanically OR electrically refueled.
Thanks,
Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde at evparts.com probably has torque curves for this motor.
If he doesn't surely he tell can you who does. If somehow you don't find
curves use Advanced DC 9-inch motor curves which are close enough to the
Kostov curves for planning purposes.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:42 PM
Subject: Kostov specs and therapy
> Kostov
> Anyone know where I can get torque curves for the 11" Kostov
> motor? Preferably including voltages above 144v. The link that I've seen
> in the archives <http://www.bia-bg.com/BALKANCAR/gkostov.htm> doesn't seem
> to work anymore.
>
> Therapy
> I started ripping out parts from my 99 Tacoma truck yesterday and it felt
> really good. I'm beginning to feel the onset of an EV grin :) Now I just
> have to make up my mind about motor/controller/batteries. These decisions
> that you'll have to live with for years are hard. With premium selling
> for >$2.30 a gallon, it is fun to ponder the choices though. I hope it
> doubles.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder why your first motor developed a short and later was replaced?
The answer to that question might provide good clues about your
present motor.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 10:20 PM
Subject: DCP and XP-1227 problems
> I'm having some problems with my DCP and my XP-1227 and wonder if any one
> may have some ideas.
>
> First the DCP controller. Turn it on. It powers up fine and proper lights
> come on. Only problem is that smell of something electrical burning coming
> from inside the controller. I was determined to drive the car anyway so I
> made my errands and the car performed great but the electrical burning
smell
> didn't seem to go away.
>
> I suppose I'll take it out and send it back to Damon to see if he can find
> the cause of the problem before I really blow it. The controller blew last
> year and Damon was able to repair it. Still don't know what caused that.
My
> wife was driving the car and it was running fine at 55 mph up a slight
grade
> pulling 200 amps and then the controller just smoked. She was actually
able
> to coast a half mile home from there.
>
> This incident is when I noticed the charger starting to trip. After she
made
> it home I tried charging it and it tripped even with the circuit breaker
> turned off from the positive side of the controller (I just have the
single
> circuit breaker). I called Damon to tell him about the controller and
> mentioned the charger tripping and he said to disconnect the negative side
> as well which solved the problem.
>
> A couple weeks later, after I received the controller back from Damon
> everything was working fine for several months but just within the past
> couple months the charger started tripping again. So I recalled what Damon
> said and disconnected the negative side from the (-) of the controller to
> the battery and it stopped tripping. This is where the motor comes in. I
did
> one test where I left the cables connected to the controller and
> disconnected the motor and the charger worked great with no problems so
the
> tripping is caused by some short within the motor.
>
> I've had the car ten years and this is the second time this has happened
> with a short in the motor. My first 8" inch motor developed a short within
> three years causing the charger to trip. I was able to still use it and
> charge it by turning off the circuit breaker. A practice I should have
been
> doing anyway. A couple years later I replaced that motor with an XP-1227.
> Now about 4 years after getting that one I'm having the problem again.
>
> Any ideas??
>
> Thanks
>
> Chip Gribben
>
>
>
>
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Air ducts and belly pan are not done yet - I had just put the
hood and front quarter panels on and was going across the street
to the body guy to check the doors and make sure that the bottom
edges fit right before he primes them. Still have to put the roof
back on too. The controller heat sink is open to the motor
compartment. Open to the -20C garage until just before I pulled out.
I'm thinking of getting some pipe heat tape to wind through the
fins of the heat sink. You can get that stuff with a built-in
thermostat to keep the temp just above freezing. I can take it
out in the summer.
As you may have guessed, Joe, around here "PFC" has a different
meaning. Minus 42 in March? Yuk!
Peter had a good thought about thermal shock to the silicon. I
was thinking that this is what I get when I buy an Italian
controller. What do they know about cold?
According to the manual, the thermal protection alarm reduces
available power by 80%. So if I leave it, it won't be much
different from my gas car's performance at -40. Takes a few
minutes to warm up.
For anybody wondering about the stuck throttle adventure, I was
backing up slowly towards a 5 foot snow bank, so even if the
brakes had not held her, I would have stopped without damage.
The Citroen has legendary good brakes. At least I didn't put the
clutch in - Two pumps of the brakes and I had had enough - I
turned the key switch off. You know, I didn't even think of
pulling the main breaker off. My automatic response to the
emergency was to turn the key.
I had to take the front quarter panels back to the body shop to
get a little more work done on them. I had intended to take some
pictures on Saturday of the assembled front end so I could update
the webs site, but with the stall and subsequent hassle, it was
too dark by the time I got her running again.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Joe Smalley wrote:
What kind of air circulation do you have in the controller compartment?
You may want to insulate the compartment (and put it to bed with a nice warm
night light on in the compartment) during the winter nights to keep it warm.
...
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P.S. do zinc air batteries/fuel cells have electrolyte? That is a part
of the definition for batteries.
Some do, some don't. H2 fuel cells, to my knowledge, do not have a
separate electrolyte. They do use a (usually) platinum catalyst,
however. I don't think solid-plate zinc fuel cells use any form of
electrolyte, either, though the granulated zinc fuel cell uses
potassium hydroxide. I don't know what aluminum fuel cells use.
--
___________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Michael stresses the precise term,
whereas I use ones the layman can relate to.
SNIP
So, I have no problem being corrected, and look
forward to it again (I can always learn more). But all
will continue to see me use layman terms. I have a
better success rate and a higher hit-ratio when
talking to the public when I do.
For the most part I agree with what you say here. We do get too
technical sometimes and it turns people off the movement. However,
the list is not the general public. We are the die-hards and techies
(for the most part). It doesn't help us any to continue the
dis-information spewed by the parrots in the media here onlist.
As to talking to the general public, it depends on their attitudes as
to how I talk to them. If they are the dumb, redneck type, I don't go
into it at all. They never care. If they seem interested but not
technical, I just tell them something like "fuel cells and batteries
differ in the reactions they use, but the end result is the same;
electricity. I'd be happy to explain them to you in more detail if
you'd like, but it's not that important to everyday life." This still
leaves them with more info than they had before (fuel cells and
batteries are different), but avoids the
glazed-eyes-head-lolling-drool-faced-anti-tech zombie effect.
--
___________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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OK. THAT is where my information had a hole in it. I thought it could
be mechanically OR electrically refueled.
That is one confusing spot. The spent fuel from a fuel cell can be
reclamated electrically (through electrolysis), but this is different
from recharging a secondary battery. One major difference is that (to
my knowledge anyway) you cannot electrolyse the spent fuel inside the
cell. It must be removed first. So even though you can electrically
"recreate" your fuel, it must be mechanically removed from the cell
and replaced. Usually this means you take out the spent fuel, set it
aside for later electrolysis, and put in new fuel. This would be
roughly equivalent to pulling the plates and electrolyte out of a
discharged battery, putting fresh ones in, and then re-forming the
plates and electrolyte at some other time.
--
___________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
You go John- forklifts can be a great way to create EV converts!
The last plant I worked in had four forklifts- one diesel, two LPG, and a
vintage 1967 Pettibone Mercury Electric. I'll bet you can guess which one
was the most reliable! This begs the question- why haven't I seen much
discussion on the use of forklift batteries in conversions, esp. truck-based
ones? Are they just too heavy on a watt-hrs/lb basis?
[Jay Donnaway]
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> It is unlikely to be fine with 72V, if this Lansing motor is the
> same one as the local conversion I described uses. It is a shunt
> wound motor and will not hit 1800RPM on 72V even completely unloaded.
That's a good point, Roger. I've been assuming it's a typical series
wound forklift motor. If it's shunt wound, then raising the voltage will
be the only way to get more speed out of it.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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c) Figure out an electronic power steering system
> that is available off-the-shelf which would fit a
> Civic. Cost: Unkown.
The 2002-2003 Civic have electric power steering, cost: unknown, maybe a
bone yard would be your best shot at finding one.
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:19 PM
Subject: Power Steering, revisited
> Well sports fans, I'm glad I broached this issue
> early, b/c it's reared it's ugly head again. Here's
> the scoop:
>
> Problem: I have hard steel lines for power steering
> right where I need batteries.
> Potential Solutions:
> a) Pull stock steering unit and replace with manual
> system. Cost is $200 + labor, unless I do it. (it
> doesn't look _too_ bad in the manual). With 800 lbs.
> batteries, it will of course require a bit of muscle
> to steer with this solution. I don't mind, but
> getting the wife to _enjoy_ the car is a goal.
> b) Replace pulley pump with electric pump. Add
> flexible steel lines, and re-route. Cost is $800+,
> (Can EV/Randy Holmquist has this unit) but we get the
> power steering. Wow, that must be a heck of a motor
> for 800, considering I got an 8" for about that! (;-p
> c) Figure out an electronic power steering system
> that is available off-the-shelf which would fit a
> Civic. Cost: Unkown.
> Any brilliant words of wisdom are appreciated!
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
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Hi Garry,
> Even based on everything said here there was something
> seriously wrong if this didn't have range.
>
> The standard battery pack would have driven it for 5 hours at
> 15 kph this is a total of 75 k, so at 30k it should have had
> at least 2 of the 2.5 hours running time available.
>
> This would indicate that the batteries used were suspect if
> it didn't run for long.
I don't know what the 'standard battery pack' is/was for the tug, but I
am reasonably confident that you will not get 60km+ range at 30kph with
a 72V set of T105s (about 145Ah @75A) using this motor and an SCR
controller (the configuration of the local conversion).
Part of this may be battery inefficiency due to the high current pulses
they are subjected to with the low frequency SCR controller, part of it
may be motor inefficiency due to being run at high current to develop
the required power for road use, and part of it may be increased
drivetrain losses of an automobile relative to the (presumed) simpler
direct or near direct drive of the tug.
Consider also that the tug is geared lower than the automobile so that
it can develop its required power at 15kph through higher RPM and lower
torque (current), which may result in more efficient motor and battery
operation. Also, most tugs, lift trucks, etc. spend most of their lives
running on a smooth, flat concrete slab, unlike the on road vehicle that
has to cope with routinely moving the vehicle mass along less smooth
surfaces of varying inclines. (5 hours operation on a concrete slab
with a top speed of 15kph does not translate to 75km if run constant,
especially if one takes the tug out on the street.) Then, consider that
the aerodynamic losses increase with the square of the vehicle speed (at
low speeds like 15, 30 and 50kph aero losses are typically considered
small relative to the rolling losses, however, that does not mean that
the increase in losses between 15 and 30kph will not have a measurable
effect on range).
I certainly don't mind if you prove me wrong, but based on my experience
with this local conversion, I would sell/trade the tug in working
condition for a more suitable series wound motor.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
veena wrote:
>
> hi all
> can someone tell me the near to correct value of rolling resistance
> coefficient for a tar road and rubber tires.
> will .15N/tonne be a correct value for rolling resistance?
> veena
For firmly inflated tires it's about 0.01 (of the tonne in this case),
or 100N/Tonne.
You're off by a factor of 1000... :-)
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Alex Karahalios wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> I had made a small list of conversion projects that mentioned vacuum
> pumps some time ago. You may already have seen these, but here they are:
>
> http://advanceguard.dhs.org/conversion/Conversion20.htm
> http://jerryrig.com/convert/step26.html
> http://www.users.voicenet.com/~tnichols/EV/escort05.html
>
> Alex Karahalios
You can add this one:
http://www.metricmind.com/pump.htm
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
>> I have a question for the list gurus: Why have a thermal
>> protection alarm for cold temperatures? Doesn't silicon like it
>> cool?
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Just a guess here but the silicon in the power transistors is a
> crystal (or at least a crystalline structure). Perhaps there is
> a concern about the crystal cracking due to the rapid temperature
> change from sub-freezing to warm (with the power going through it).
Silicon devices will work down to -60 deg.C (-76 deg.F). However, their
parameters change with temperature; their voltage and current limits,
gain, speed, etc. will all be different. For example, a manufacturer
might spec a transistor as having a gain of 100-200 at 25 deg.C, and
50-400 at 0 to 70 deg.C. This is what he tests to; a part that doesn't
meet these limits is rejected.
Some parts work better than spec; the manufacturer will sort them out
and test them at -40 to +105 deg.C. It's the same part, but you pay more
for the extra sorting and testing.
The circuit designer has to take all these changes into account. If he
uses the cheap parts, the parts will drift out of spec at extreme
temperatures; the circuit may work but out of spec, or quit entirely.
There are also lots of other parts with temperature limits. Electrolytic
capacitors and LCD displays have a water-based electrolyte; it freezes
at low temperatures. Things physically expand and contract with
temperature; this sets limits for mechanical parts like switches and
relays.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jay,
My Tug had a battery pack of 156 amp hours at 48 volts,
This weighed 480 kg, a standard set of 6 volt batteries with about the same
amp hour rating could weigh as little as 200 kg but more likely around 225
kg
T105's weigh 28kg and at the 5 hour rate would probably exceed the 156 amp
hours the tug has at almost less than half the weight.
Still it would be interesting to try a forklift pack and see what difference
the weight made and distance was.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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