EV Digest 2644
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(ZAP Forward-looking statements)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(GM tosses EV1 for fcv)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(An electric street car named disire)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(AgWeb's Good Laugh: a dealer actually sells an electric car)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EVLN(?Amp�re EV?)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EVLN(Reva is catching market fancy)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVLN(Think City EV is better than a 78 Chevette)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The limo EV is comming. Got half a mil?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: New to the list, with questions
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EV Grin re-visited
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) CARB - IVT Symposium (OT?)
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: If ICE drivers knew what EV drivers know
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: space frame construction
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New to the list, with questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: MIT MGMT Course - "Electric Vehicles: Pipe Dream or Product of the Future?"
EVs are Disruptive Technology
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New to the list, with questions
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: New to the list, with questions (MOPED)
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) mm to gauge conversion
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: mm to gauge conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) OT - Political noise on list
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT - Political noise on list
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: OT - Political noise on list
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) OT - Political noise on list
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: OT - Political noise on list
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(ZAP Forward-looking statements)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://new.stockwatch.com/newsit/newsit_newsit.pasp?bid=U-pSFM049-U:ZAPZ-20030310&news_region=U&symbol=ZAPZ
ZAP Reveals New Lithium-Ion Battery Technology That Could Quadruple
Range of Electric Cars 2003-03-10 07:00 ET - News Release
SEBASTOPOL, Calif., March 10 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- ZAP (BULLETIN
BOARD: ZAPZ) announced today it is revealing a new battery
technology for electric cars on the Science Channel, a lithium-ion
chemistry with the potential to quadruple the performance of today's
conventional electric vehicle batteries.
In an interview with "Science Central," which is scheduled to air
tonight, Monday, March 10, 2003 at 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ZAP CEO Steve Schneider says that the new lithium-ion battery
technology is similar to that used in cell phones, but with
improvements that increase its energy output. "It allows amperage to
go in and out at a rapid pace which is what you need to drive
something as large as an automobile," says Schneider. "Really, that
is what makes this different, it's the first of its kind that is
affordable and available to the public."
The energy density of the lithium-ion battery has a 4-1 ratio
compared to lead-acid batteries, meaning it could extend the range
of today's electric cars from 60 miles to 240 miles per charge. ZAP
CEO Steve Schneider calls the new technology the "Holy Grail" for
this industry, saying that billions of dollars have been spent in
recent years by government and industry to find ways of reducing
automotive emissions by developing new battery technologies.
Schneider notes the technology is undergoing third party testing to
confirm the performance characteristics.
The announcement comes at a time when many experts are pointing at
hydrogen fuel cells as a clean way to power automobiles. But
Schneider notes that an infrastructure would be needed to refuel the
hydrogen, while with electrics the infrastructure is already in
place because they can plug into any normal electrical outlet.
During the program, Schneider demonstrates ZAP's new car, the Light
Utility Vehicle, or L.U.V., a neighborhood electric car with a
top-speed of 25 MPH that is now available. ZAP is working to launch
a "L.U.V.-Line" of electric automobiles, which includes
freeway-capable automobiles as well as vans, pickups and tractors.
For product information, visit http://www.zapworld.com/ or call
800-251-4555.
Forward-looking statements in this release CONTACT: Alex Campbell of
ZAP, +1-707-824-4150, ext. 241 Web site: http://www.zapworld.com/
=====
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EVLN(GM tosses EV1 for fcv)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/11/eveningnews/main543605.shtml
GM Pulls Plug On Electric Car
March 11, 2003 General Motors' EV1 electric car. (AP)
"After ten years and investing over a billion dollars we think its
time to move on." Ken Stewart, GM
(CBS) It is sleek and streamlined, fast and electric. But as CBS
News Correspondent John Blackstone reports, General Motors' EV1, the
car of the future, is about to become a thing of the past.
"I can out accelerate most of the cars on the road without using a
drop of gas," says Greg Hanssen, who owns an EV1.
"Get a good look at it because when it goes away, it's gone," says
Patrick Preminger, another EV1 owner.
General Motors is pulling the plug on its electric car. The company
never sold it, it only leased the car and is now demanding every EV1
be returned.
Greg Hanssen led a campaign to save the little cars from the
crusher.
"We had $22,000 turned in from over 80 individuals who said 'can I
hold onto my car.' And they said 'No, you cannot hold onto your
car,'" says Hanssen.
When GM's chairman unveiled the EV1 seven years ago at the Detroit
International Auto Show, it seemed there was finally an alternative
to gasoline.
"GM's goal is to make a business out of the electric car," said Jack
Smith, chairman of General Motors.
In a commercial, GM suggested electric cars would soon be as common
as toasters.
Those commercials boldly announced, "The electric car is here."
But General Motors built only about a thousand EV1's, available only
in California and Arizona. General Motor's Ken Stewart says few
people wanted a car that had to be plugged in every hundred miles or
so.
"After ten years and investing over a billion dollars we think its
time to move on," says Stewart.
When the EV1 was introduced California was setting tough new
standards for cutting air pollution from cars. But since then GM and
other automakers have gone to court delaying those standards. With
the immediate pressure gone, the EV1 is going too.
Linda Preminger calls the situation "heartbreaking".
The Premingers hate to lose their EV1.
"It's not a luxury car, but it's the best car I have ever driven.
And you don't have to smell the gasoline fumes," says Linda.
GM is now touting a new car of the future that runs on hydrogen, but
it won't be for sale for years. So as the EV1 disappears, so does
the brief hope for freedom from the gas pump.
� MMIII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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EVLN(An electric street car named disire)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.napanews.com/templates/index.cfm?template=story_full&id=E522DEC4-6741-435D-84EF-02E7AF70A22A
Yountville vet re-creates S.F. streetcar of his youth
Sunday, March 9, 2003 By DOTTIE GULL Register Correspondent
For veteran Hugh Mooney, the chance to do a scale model of the "last
of the old Market Street streetcars" was an opportunity he couldn't
pass up.
That's because the trolley passed his boyhood home in San Francisco
on a daily basis.
"Car No. 273 used to pass my house under my bedroom window," Mooney
recalls of his Bay Area days on Sacramento Street in San Francisco,
prior to World War II. "To me, as a young boy, this was the epitome
of might and beauty in 1932."
The resident of the Veterans Home of California in Yountville
finished the one-twelfth scale model in February, and has it boxed
up and ready to ship to the city, where it will be displayed in the
History Room of the Main Branch of the San Francisco Library.
It was a labor of love for Mooney.
"Remember, these were the days before the commercial airliner and
the freeways. Like San Franciscans of that day, I rode that
streetcar to and from school and work. Old No. 273 was the last of
the old Market Street cars to be retired," he said.
Mooney fondly recalls those days when the clanging of the car bell
announced its arrival at street intersections and when pedestrians
strayed into its path.
"This car was all shiny and bright, just thinking about it reminds
me of the smells, sights and sounds of those early days before the
war. There was seating next to open windows and you could feel the
breezes on your face, the smells of the marketplaces and watch the
world go by," he said.
The model, made from scratch, consists of plywood, cardboard and
plastic, wire and gold chain. It was carefully recreated, he said,
using his memory and old photos of the car. It's now an exact
replica that is 11 inches by more than 4 feet in size. The model
will eventually be placed on a stand he will build.
Mooney wasn't commissioned to do the model, nor was he asked by San
Francisco. He's had plans to build it for more than 70 years.
In 1932, in a publication devoted to "The Electric Car Model," he
pulled a set of plans from the magazine, intending someday to create
the scale model the plans were for.
"The plans traveled with me after the war to the East Coast and
Connecticut where I taught history at a small college," he said.
A teacher most of his life, Mooney always fondly remembered old car
No. 273, and wherever he moved, the plans went with him.
"Oh, many's the time I thought of throwing them away. Then, I'd
think, 'well maybe someday,' and toss them into a folder in a box
for safekeeping," he said.
He's glad he did, as car No. 273, packed and ready to ship, lies on
a tabletop in the residential hall where he lives at the Veterans
Home.
The rather large model takes up most of the table and on close
examination reveals in miniature the exact recreation of Mooney's
memories of the streetcar, which was among the last of the Market
Street streetcars.
Later, it was among the best cars renewed for use in upscale areas
of the city, he says.
"It is seen in a picture I have of the celebrations on Market
Street," he said.
"Eventually, as with all things, it was pulled from service and fell
into disuse," he said. A city historical group is attempting to
rebuild the old car and Mooney watches for word of the progress with
interest.
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EVLN(AgWeb's Good Laugh: a dealer actually sells an electric car)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.agweb.com/news_show_news_article.asp?nodate=Y&file=AgNewsArticle_200336743_836&articleid=95872&newscat=AGL
AgWeb News - 06 Mar 2003
[...]
Jay Leno: "When gas reaches $5 a gallon, NASCAR drivers will sit in
the cars and just make engine noises with their mouths."
Jay Leno: "At $14 a gallon, carjacker mug circus bears for their
unicycle."
Jay Leno: "When it hits $22 a gallon, even Martin Sheen will want to
attack Iraq for the oil."
Jay Leno: "At $28 a gallon, Bill Gates will be the only man in
America who can afford to drive a Lincoln Navigator while towing a
boat uphill with the air conditioner on."
Jay Leno: "When it hits $31 a gallon, residents of Los Angeles
discover sidewalks."
Jay Leno: "At $38 a gallon, a dealer actually sells an electric
car."
Jay Leno: " When it hits $42 a gallon, sea gulls intentionally fly
into oil slicks just for the money."
Jay Leno: "At $45 a gallon, the Bush Administration admits there
could be a problem."
Jay Leno: "When it hits $50 a gallon, even straight guys will put on
bicycle pants."
=====
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EVLN(?Amp�re EV?)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://mall.montreal.com/~mtlweblog/
Hydro-Quebec in scheme to build an electric car and all I want to
know is what they're going to call it. Maybe the Amp�re?
posted by Kate McDonnell at 09:50
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Reva is catching market fancy)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=29873
Car Of Dreams
Ratan Tata may make it possible
The late Sanjay Gandhi thought of a �people�s car�, but Maruti 800
is still beyond the reach of even the middle classes. �People�s car�
has been a dream of many auto manufacturers but it has yet to become
a reality.
[...]
The electric car, �Reva�, priced at Rs 2.25 lakh is slowly catching
market fancy because of low fuel and maintenance cost apart from its
pollution free and environment friendly features.
[...]
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Think City EV is better than a 78 Chevette)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://blogism.bloghorn.com/
3/6/2003 7:52:54 PM - [yardism] [0 comments]
As i was driving home from work tonight there was this person in a
car called a Th!nk. I know it was a clean air vehicle because of the
stickers, but i dont know if it was a hybrid or just an electric. It
looked a lot like an Igloo cooler to me. Like not only could you
drive it (maximum speed 56 MPH according to a hand-written sign in
the rear window) but also, it could keep a lot of drinks really cold
if you needed it to. I probably wouldn't drive one unless they
became the norm, but i respected this lady's decision. The guy
beside her seemed a lot more eager to laugh at her funny little car,
which i found to be a kick in the pants since he was driving a 78
Chevette held together by rust and dirt. Given the choice of driving
a funny little electric car or a 78 Chevette (which i have owned), i
would take the Th!nk anyday. Sure, it only goes 56 MPH, but the
Chevette's maximum speed is decreased by at least 20 MPH if you have
as much as a bag of groceries in the car with you. If you turn on
the A/C (if it still works) subtract another 15MPH. Turn on the
radio, 4MPH.
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--- Begin Message ---
This designer is very serious. If he says it can be done he can. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 4:36 PM
Subject: RE: The limo EV is comming. Got half a mil?
> How do they explain how you can drive 300km and yet recharge in 20
minutes?
> Even best case would be:
> 150 watts/mile * .6 miles/km = 90 watts/km.
> 90 watts/km * 300km = 27000 watts or 27kw
> even if partial recharge, say 20kw, in 20 minutes, would mean:
> 20 * 60/20 minutes = 60kwhr recharging!
> The PFC-50 is able to pull 10kwhr from 220vac, but anything higher would
> require some serious power, like over 440vac!
>
> Once again, marketing spin reduces EV credibility.
> -Ed T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 4:13 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The limo EV is comming. Got half a mil?
>
>
> http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2003/01/28/54.asp?t=dp Oops. Here is the URL.
> Lawrence Rhodes....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Dallob wrote:
--------------------------------------
My apologies for the ignorance in advance:
Since I cannot add batteries (battery pan is pretty much full with the 4 6V
220ah), will a change in motor increase speed? If so, what would you
recommend?
Seth
------------------------------------
Roderick wrote:
---------------------------------
Since you have a chain drive just put a larger sprocket on the motor.
First put an ammeter on your system or use a clamp on and get a
reading before you try the larger sprocket. After you install the
larger sprocket you will draw more amps. You need to know if you are
drawing too many amps. You can report back to the list with your
findings. To figure how many teeth to add there are many available
formulas online to calculate your desired increase in speed. Also
feel your motor after running for awhile. Your senses will tell you
if you are running too many amps through it. If it's just warm you're
fine. If you can't hold your hand on it you're drawing too many amps.
Another thing you can do to increase speed is to bypass the field
windings with a solenoid in order to weaken the field strength. You
accomplish this by wiring a solenoid across the field terminals. When
the solenoid contacts it forms a parallel circuit which weakens the
field strength and causes the armature to turn at a higher RPM. You
only want to engage the solenoid once you have reached top speed.
There are motors which would work good for you but first try the more
affordable alternatives. I guess this is not a good business
practice, eh. Telling a prospective customer not to spend money :-)
Good luck on your experiments.
Roderick
--------------------------------------
Hi Seth, welcome to the EV list! This is the place for info of all types,
just ask.
I am surprised that Roderick did not recommend increasing voltage and adding
a high-output controller :-)
Voltage is directly related to motor speed, doubling voltage roughly doubles
motor speed.
(In the real world, motor design, wind resistance, friction and other losses
due to vehicle speed will prevent the actual doubling of motor speed)
Current (amps) increases torque. (alot)
Many industrial and golf cart motors are extremely robust and can generally
take major increases of voltage and current for short periods.
For instance, Roderick's evparts.com golf cart was originally a 1982 Yamaha
running at 36V with a contactor/resistor controller and 2.5 hp G.E. motor.
Cart now has 108V of small 12V batteries, a 500A controller and is a rocket
to over 40 mph, motor remains bone stock G.E. and runs with no problem at
this power level. (your motor may vary)
You could try substituting 12V batteries for your 6V ones, you would have to
upgrade controller. You could use original charger if you doubled voltage.
(charge half of pack at a time.)
Learn more, some links here:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
Hope this helps!
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Put a great big wide one right across my mug:
Wife & I were visiting our younger daughter over the weekend (Santa Clara) and while
backing out of her apartment's
enclosed parking space I heard the distinctive (but subdued of course) whine from an
electrified(!?) vehicle entering
the complex. It wasn't until she zipped directly behind us that my rear view mirror
was briefly filled with the glorious
sight of a shiny Ford Think. I of course had to catch up (sorry dear, lunch'll have to
wait).
It only took a minute or so to get buckled in and turned around, but when we finally
caught up with her, WHAM!, a second
EV Grin popped out when we found the Think was parked directly behind it's *roommate*,
a Corbin Sparrow!
The Think had already been plugged in and the driver had headed inside the building by
the time we got there (yeah, so
much the *delay & inconvenience* of EV "refueling*, however, I was able to catch up
with the owner(s) later from their
website address graphic on the side of the vehicle. They use both vehicles daily and
you can see more about their
Sparrows *income generator* at http://dodoskido.com/archives/000546.html (ahhh, Yankee
ingenuity:-)
You know folks, some days it's the simple things that count.
(EV's = Weapon's of Mass Delight?)
Cheers,
Jim Waite
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I'm still thinking of attending CARB's meeting on the 27th (& or 28th), while
checking their website for updates to
the agenda (not avail until ~3/17) I came across this symposium already in progress:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/gcc/techsem/symposium.htm
Interesting to see the information (spin?) being presented to the *public* literally
in the same building and within
days of CARB's landmark meeting and their about-to-be-anointed(?) decision on
California's ZEV/EV posture etc.
It's obviously a bit late notice, however, webcast is available, and you can preview
some of the
presenters/presentations (some even appear to be including & addressing
grid-rechargeable hybrids) on Wednesday
afternoon (session IV):
http://www.arb.ca.gov/gcc/techsem/0303presentations/hermance.pdf (see pg. 6, at least
*somebody's* starting to get the
message)
ftp://ftp.arb.ca.gov/carbis/gcc/techsem/thomas.pdf (check out Ford's hideous/proposed
Model U on pg 29:-(
Jim Waite
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about a study first, to see if it really improves? (Has one been
done already?) Get Hertz to put the MPG meters on 1/2 of one model of
their cars, and not on the other 1/2. See if there is a significant
difference. The car rental guys would probably like better mpg, it
means their cars are being driven more gently.
Just a one person data point: Whenever I have rented a car with the
mpg meter, I've always been able to beat the average mpg by about 2
mpg (~10%). For my EV1 rentals, my wake up range went from about 40
miles when picked up to ~65 miles when I dropped it off.
--- Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A dw tv knock off of Motortrend tv mag (or is it the other
> way around), showed some of the latest Euro vehicle models.
>
> Of course with euro fuel more realistically priced than
> USA fuel (more than bottled water), fuel economy as well
> as performance, utility, and looks were important.
>
> The dash of one of the vehicles showed a slim horizontal
> dash cluster. With the kmph readout easy to read (not
> giant like US vehicles).
>
> A simple co$t per kilometer or in the USA co$t per mile
> readout in the cluster would tone down wasteful fuel
> use.
>
> I have POSTed on this before, but as an EV group, we should
> pull some strings to get the automakers to do this.
>
> If the automakers won't make EVs, then at least make the
> ICE they sell accountable for their pollution. The best
> way to put a hold on vehicle pollution, is to hit them
> in the pocket book. sounds like a proposal for CARB's
> next meeting?
>
> This readout of the money being spent would do just that.
> Vehicle efficiency would be now more important, and more
> conservative driving would happen. This would achive
> CARB's goals.
>
> I would also propose that there be a three color led be
> near it. It would be green for when it is the best it
> can be, yellow when you could do better by easing off
> the accelerator (like an EV driver who drives with an
> egg under their foot), and bright red when they are
> being wasteful.
>
> The lead foots could get the waste they want, and the
> rest of the drivers could know how to drive like and EV
> driver. If there were any production EVs, a readout like
> that would show pennies per mile.
>
> Yea, I know automakers would sue CARB on that too. Can
> you imagine the look on the SUV driver's face when they
> go on a test drive. What! $2.00 just to go around the
> block?
>
> EV drivers know how to enjoy the ride without getting
> caught up in the vibration of the ICE. Our EVs are not
> setup to fight you when you wait at a red light.
>
> Driving a SUV is like trying to hold back a tank.
> You let go of the brakes and it idles at 40 mph.
>
> It is going to be very different for hybrid SUV drivers
> when their ICE stops. No wait, Ford is not going to
> stop the ICE. That's right they are going to make a
> fake hybrid that only charges the 12v battery when you
> brake. So their hybrid SUVs which will drive in the
> carpool lane will still drive like an angry elephant.
>
> Watt do you think?
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>>>This is a re-send due to yesterday's listproc problems<<<
donmedon wrote:
**********
Can anybody point me in the right direction? I am looking for info on
space frame construction, especially on how to design one from
scratch. Any books? web sites ? would be appreciated.
**********
Here's a link I picked up some time ago, but haven't had occasion to
peruse thoroughly. http://www.gmecca.com/byorc/index.html. It should
at least be a good starting point.
The book that got me started is Racing and Sports Car Chassis Design by
Costin and Phipps. See
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02Y1825814Y8914715/
qid=1047390527/sr=1-1/ref=aps_sr_bdgw_z_2_1/002-9529293-5850467. It is
dated, but covers the basics very well. It's filled with examples of
British cars from the 50's and 60's that demonstrate how incredibly
strong and light a good space frame can be. A search will likely turn
up many more sources.
As you probably know, the key is triangulation. A true space frame has
all of its members loaded primarily in tension or compression, even when
the load on the structure as a whole may be torsional. There is a fine
point here that is often missed and bears discussion:
Typically a space frame is modeled as axially loaded members joined with
ball-and-socket joints. That is, *no* consideration is given to the
torsional or bending strength of any member. This is to make the
analysis easier, and generally gives a comfortably conservative strength
estimate. This modeling technique encourages the designer to use small
diameter thick wall tubing - it's easier to work with than large
diameter thin wall tubing of equal cross-sectional area, and the only
advantage of larger thinner wall tubing is torsional and bending
strength.
There are some structures, however, (a motorcycle chassis, for example)
that can put the primary members of a *real* chassis under a large
torsional load. In these cases using large diameter thin wall tubing
will give a substantial increase in strength for zero increase in
weight. Don't let the modeling technique dictate your design too much.
It's also a mistake to assume a true space frame is always best. For
example, a three-wheeler chassis has no need at all for torsional
rigidity beyond what the simplest frame can provide. That's because all
the roll resistance is between the side-by-side wheels. The rest of the
chassis is only along for the ride. Better to concentrate on crash
protection without considering torsion.
Good luck on your project. Can we have more details please?
Chris
P.S. donmedon's message didn't come to me as an email like most EVDL
posts. I stumbled across it in the Yahoo archive. I wonder how many
other posts I've missed? Anyone else have this happen?
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--- Begin Message ---
To be called a moped, doesn't one have to be able to peddle it ??
Robert Salem
81 vw pickup ,240volts, kostov, dcp1200
> You can get an extra 5 mph in California by registering as a moped.
> You
> have to keep the speed under 30mph but you aren't restricted to 35
> zones.
> It's a one time registration also. No yearly fees. Basically the same
> as a
> motorcycle minus the speed. Any electric three wheeled vehicle under
> 1500
> pounds that goes 30 or less can be a moped. Lawrence Rhodes....
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Johanna and Stan wrote:
> So, how do you view the future of the electric car? For example,
> [EVs] were the 'female' choice according to my reading of auto
> history in the early 20th century. As the Tappet Brothers (NPR)
> might say 'knuckle draggers prefer cubic inches'. The point being
> pubilc perception. Guys and some gals need to impress others with
> their rides, ICE is the easiest way to do that now.
Here are my thoughts. Most people buy the easy, safe, obvious choice;
the same things that everyone else buys. That's an ICE. If they deviate
at all, it will be in "safe" directions, like choice of color, or style,
or brand name.
This group will not buy an EV. We don't have the technology to make an
EV that is enough like an ICE for this group to accept. The auto
companies tried, and failed. In this sense, they are right -- the
traditional car buyers won't buy EVs. And from the auto company's point
of view, this mass market is the *only* market.
But there is a certain percentage of the population that wants something
different. Either they have a real need that isn't being met by the
status quo; or they just want something different. In either case, they
are willing to take chances and pay extra.
Let's consider the first part of this group; those with needs that
aren't being met, and that an EV can meet better. Think back to the
early 1900's. The safe solution was a horse. But some people considered
them dirty, smelly, uncomfortable, and hard to take care of. Electric
vehicles neatly addressed all of these concerns. Not only were they
popular with women, but also for doctors, delivery trucks, streetcars,
trains, and industrial vehicles. These applications demanded a vehicle
that was clean, quiet, comfortable, and that just plain worked with a
minimum of fuss.
Today, EVs are still widely used in all of these markets except
on-the-road vehicles. Even on the road, electric bicycles and NEVs are
making some headway. So, there is clearly a market for EVs that satisfy
these niche markets.
Now let's consider the second part of the non-traditional group; those
that want something different. They buy for excitement, adventure,
status, to push the envelope, and to be "first". They don't care if it
is expensive or unreliable or impractical, as long as it clearly excels
in at least one area. They want the fastest sports car, or the biggest
SUV, or the most luxurious limosine.
Thinking back to the early 1900's, this type of customer bought the
gasoline cars. They were fast, loud, and showy. So what if they required
the skills of a machanic, lots of maintenance, and constantly broke
down? They got you noticed!
I think that this type of buyer doesn't really think very far ahead. He
(and it more often is a 'he') doesn't know about, or doesn't care about
the downside of the vehicle. He "buys" into the advertising, the image,
the illusion. He imagines himself flying down the road without a care in
the world, not covered in grease and trying to fix the thing alongside
the road.
It's interesting that these early noisy, smelly, unreliable gasoline
cars slowly evolved from something that only hard-core car nuts could
love into the safe, conservative, mainstream solution they are today. I
think it happened in part because those early buyers were willing to
spend a lot of money for their "toys". This money financed a lot more
research and development than the more conservative EV market got. So,
the ICE cars improved faster, and soon outpaced the EVs.
There is a place for EVs in this market, too. As the drag racing crowd
has shown, EVs have the potential to out-accellerate almost anything on
the road. They could also be optimized for luxury, or other "I'm the
best" markets if anyone so desired. But so far, it has generally not
been addressed. The Tango is the first serious attempt I have seen to
make an EV that can compete in this market.
It's also interesting that the auto companies participate in this
market, even though the number of buyers is an insignificant fraction of
the mainstream car market. GM probably makes little or no profit on the
Corvette, but they choose to produce it anyway, probably for its
advertising value. It lets the buyer of the cheap econobox Chevy pretend
that there's something of the Corvette in it. In that sense, producing
the EV1 could have equally well have been justifiable just for its PR
value. Sadly, GM has chosen otherwise.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Mar 2003 at 11:58, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> To be called a moped, doesn't one have to be able to peddle it ??
I peddled my electric moped to a guy about 30 miles from here. He really
likes it.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No in Vancouver Canada... I was nearly floored when I saw these nice shiny
new mopeds in the Mall sans peddles. I too thought the 'ped' meant peddles
and also that they were probably illegal now what with the dirty polluting 2
cycle engines. I guess my 'ass'umptions were wrong :-)
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden (Akron OH USA) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: March 12, 2003 11:01
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New to the list, with questions
On 12 Mar 2003 at 11:58, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> To be called a moped, doesn't one have to be able to peddle it ??
I peddled my electric moped to a guy about 30 miles from here. He really
likes it.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what gauge is 35 mm^2 wire equivalent to? 1/0?
thanks,
Marc Kohler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's 6.68 mm dia which is 0.26" dia wire.
It's rather about US gauge 2.
http://www.reade.com/Conversion/wire_gauge.html
Just go metric, will you?
Victor
Andrea Bachus Kohler wrote:
>
> what gauge is 35 mm^2 wire equivalent to? 1/0?
>
> thanks,
> Marc Kohler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has the list software lost a privacy setting in the recent
crash'n'burn or whatever it was?
Somebody I don't recognise wrote some stuff about:
> Question of Israeli Death Squads in the U.S. -- Excerpt from
> State Dept Briefing 1/17/03
and somebody else forwarded on a Greenpeace chain letter:
> Click here to send a letter of support [blah blah]
Without wanting to pass judgement on either of these two issues,
these emails are way off topic, especially the Israeli Death
Squad one.
In the case of the Greenpeace one, if it had been marked OT and
titled appropriately (eg "OT - Greenpeace action links"), and had
the superfluous forwarding text removed, I would not complain
about it.
The other one, IMO, is an offence worthy of banishment if repeated,
assuming it has actually come from a list member rather than a
random spammer.
Ms Grumpy-Geek
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is something up with the list? I havent been getting _any_ emails.
-Sam Harper
On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 09:36 PM, Walker, Lesley R wrote:
Has the list software lost a privacy setting in the recent
crash'n'burn or whatever it was?
Somebody I don't recognise wrote some stuff about:
Question of Israeli Death Squads in the U.S. -- Excerpt from
State Dept Briefing 1/17/03
and somebody else forwarded on a Greenpeace chain letter:
Click here to send a letter of support [blah blah]
Without wanting to pass judgement on either of these two issues,
these emails are way off topic, especially the Israeli Death
Squad one.
In the case of the Greenpeace one, if it had been marked OT and
titled appropriately (eg "OT - Greenpeace action links"), and had
the superfluous forwarding text removed, I would not complain
about it.
The other one, IMO, is an offence worthy of banishment if repeated,
assuming it has actually come from a list member rather than a
random spammer.
Ms Grumpy-Geek
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ms. Grumpy-Geek [;^>] wrote:
> Has the list software lost a privacy setting in the recent
> crash'n'burn or whatever it was?
>
> Somebody I don't recognise wrote some stuff about:
> > Question of Israeli Death Squads in the U.S. -- Excerpt from State
> > Dept Briefing 1/17/03
>
> and somebody else forwarded on a Greenpeace chain letter:
> > Click here to send a letter of support [blah blah]
I'm happy to report that I didn't [yet?] receive either of those messages
(of course, I may also not have receive any number of valid EVDL messages
either...).
Are you sure they really came from the list?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If non-charter items are being sent through the SJSU
EV List, the sysop needs to be notified. His email
address is listed in the subscription procedure on
http://geocities.com/ev_list
Don't just sit there and take it, do something to
stop it.
(fyi: I am not the sysop, thus not the person to contact)
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[ObEV: I'm going up to Auckland this weekend to see the electric 323
that I'm probably going to buy. I have pictures but I can't put them
on my website from here]
Sam Harper asked:
> Is something up with the list? I havent been getting _any_ emails.
There has been a problem. As far as I can tell it seems to be back to
normal now, although perhaps some messages were lost.
See the Yahoo archive messages:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37120
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37121
I'm in digest mode, and I haven't detected any loss of messages (ie
the digest sequence numbers haven't missed a beat). All the messages
that I can see in Yahoo can be accounted for in the digests, up to
the end of the contents list of digest 2643. (That digest does
suffer from the "truncated digest" syndrome, but the subject lines
are there.)
Maybe there have been other messages that got lost and didn't make it
to the digest or to Yahoo.
And also..
Roger Stockton wrote:
> I'm happy to report that I didn't [yet?] receive either of those
> messages (of course, I may also not have receive any number of
> valid EVDL messages either...).
>
> Are you sure they really came from the list?
Well... they appear in the Yahoo archive as messages 31745 and 31746.
The actual content has been deleted now (somebody must have been
quick off the mark) but they still appear in the article list. The
next digest should be arriving sometime soon and I expect they will
be in it.
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
