EV Digest 2647
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Manure Truck
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
by "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) NPR ev story yesterday
by Teslectric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Future of LiIon
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) RE: NPR ev story yesterday
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Go-Kart is a Goer!
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: My 2 Cents, in response to CARB and Gov. Proclimations
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: My 2 Cents, in response to CARB and Gov. Proclimations
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OT - CA energy ripoff
by "Harry Houck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EVI Charging Station
by "esperanza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Future of LiIon
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Future of LiIon
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A not so funny thing happened on the way to the EV
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: (US) EV Bumper sticker now available
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: Future of LiIon
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) OT: GM and streetcars was:Re: My 2 Cents, in response to CARB and Gov.
Proclimations
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Future of LiIon
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Group31 Optima(s)
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Future of LiIon
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Future of LiIon
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Future of LiIon
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
by Matthew Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) BMS for Li-Ion cells cost question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Future of LiIon
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) 9 inch at high rpm
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
by "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
by "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Fw: Li-ion battery project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: BMS for Li-Ion cells cost question
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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One thing to remember is that if you want it to work in a Vermont
winter, *even* if it is insulated, you will need more lead. Probably
double the "Southern California lead" spec.
I think that guy is still selling that 90 something volt NiCad pack that
was 255Ah. That would be perfect for a Vermont farm truck. If you had
heaters. When I complain about 0 degrees F in Boston, it is -20F (-29C)
in most of Vermont.
http://www.evermont.org/ is a local resource. (Notice the winter parkas
in the picture)
If this is the person who wants an elec-trak, then maybe that's a good
starter EV?
Seth
>
> [ref http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37190 ]
>
> Work with the buyer to define:
> -how much they want to spend
> -how much they need to haul
> -where they want to buy it
> -how they will charge it (assume over night)
>
> and walk them through the EVs 4 Sale pages
> http://eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html
> for trucks.
>
> The slow loading http://eaasv.org/
> (too many graphics on one page) has a listing:
>
> -
> 1971 Datsun B200 Pickup, converted in 1985, 120vdc, 20 batteries, max
> speed: 65, two pasengers. This truck has had a colorful past.
> [... too much information for an ad ...]
> the current owner, who operates a landscaping service specializing
> in ecological plantings and methods. He has used it happily for
> several years.
> [... too much information for an ad ...]
> He is asking $2,500. It includes the lumber rack. The graphics on the
> body are vynil and can be removed. ! The battery pack is two years
> old. Current range is about 10 miles. With new batteries, it should
> be able to do 20-30 miles, depending on terrain. See photo & full
> details at http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/datsun-pu.shtml
>
> Ken Foster, Terra Nova Ecological Landscaping, Santa Cruz, Ca
> (831) 524-3514, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (9/26/2002)
> -
>
> This EV will need a new pack so add $1600 to the price.
>
> (repeat)
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool! I only posted the message minutes ago and my poor webserver has been
hammered with requests already! Hi Lonnie et al, thanks for looking ;-)
Please be patient as the server is sometimes slow at the best of times, let
alone when heaps of people are downloading images.
Thanks again
Dean
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:34 PM
Subject: Go-Kart is a Goer!
> Hello! You may recall some time ago I mentioned I was building an electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While waiting for my wife at the train station, I heard a story on
the NPR station out of Chicago here about how battery powered vehicles
are pretty much out of the picture due to CARB wimping out to the auto
makers and changing from 10% of all vehicles sold in 2003 to 250 total
fuel cell vehicles produced by 2008 by all manufacturers COMBINED. Geez.
There was the usual garbage from the big guys like "the public didn't
want these electric cars. No one would buy them."
It was on around 4:20pm CDT or so. I don't know how NPR works so I
don't know if it was on everywhere at the same time or what.
That is all.
jaime
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.go-ev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dean,
I bet thats fun to play on :)
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 13/03/03 23:08:47 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
> LiON involves rare metals (Lithium) unlike NiZn and NiMH and AlNaClNi.
Lithium is more plentiful as an element than Zinc, but the refining process
is very energy intensive.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anybody verify....?
I know that when CARB initially enacted this(10% in 2003), that NY and I
think VT perhaps MA, climbed on board. There's some federal regulation that
prohibits states from enacting emissions laws unless CA does so first. (I
read that here).
Anyway, I believe (this is what needs verification) that NY (maybe the
others too!) never reduced it's requirements from 10%. While CARB may have
lost all credibility, the automakers are still be held to higher standards
by other states, no?.
That's why the EV-1s are being sent to NY. Unfortunately NY is not really a
huge consumer of NEW vehicles so the giants may just pay the fines and raise
prices to compensate.
On another note, New Yorkers be advised, the state is still paying up to 60%
of conversion costs to convert an ICE to EV, in the form of a rolling tax
credit. (reduces your state income tax to $0.00 each year until paid.) I
believe though, under current legislation, that the conversion must be
completed this year. And with our current fiscal problems the program
probably will not be extended.
You can bet that by the end of this year, Hump will no longer be a lurker,
but will be a grinner too!
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teslectric [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:28 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: NPR ev story yesterday
>
>
> While waiting for my wife at the train station, I heard a story on
> the NPR station out of Chicago here about how battery powered vehicles
> are pretty much out of the picture due to CARB wimping out to the auto
> makers and changing from 10% of all vehicles sold in 2003 to 250 total
> fuel cell vehicles produced by 2008 by all manufacturers
> COMBINED. Geez.
>
> There was the usual garbage from the big guys like "the public didn't
> want these electric cars. No one would buy them."
>
> It was on around 4:20pm CDT or so. I don't know how NPR works so I
> don't know if it was on everywhere at the same time or what.
>
> That is all.
>
> jaime
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.go-ev.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll bet it is fun too!
Any idea of how fast it is?
I would think, by the amount of chain reduction,and size of tires you have
that at full voltage it is probably almost scary. unless that's one of those
'lethargic'<grin> forklift motors that only spin at 1875rpm. If thats the
case, get twice as many half size batteries and double your "fun"(voltage).
and don't forget...
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: garry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
>
>
> Hi Dean,
>
> I bet thats fun to play on :)
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anybody remember when GM & Firestone burned most of the Electric
railway systems in the United States. I heard there were some very big
fires. The railways were replaced with diesel buses. Things haven't
changed much. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven S. Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "KUOW Weekday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "EAA-BB"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dave Cloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Don
Crabtree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "John
Frost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Eric
Sundin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rod
Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Victor Munoz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rodric Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "JP Panesko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Terrence
Parkhurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roy LeMure" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"JoeS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "dhmeng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"michaelgwoods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "spsweene"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "fetsmoke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"nancyjohn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "sheer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "richdr"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Bruce Sherry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"ElectricScooterMagazine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Whitebark"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Cloud Electric Vehicles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"smnash" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "tonyscat"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "irving" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "wandgpugh"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "jetcitywoman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "rick"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "cougar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "j.e.wagner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "geoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "nnamnuahs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "pchris"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"tenthousandclowns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "RFulcher"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "adodwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "steve"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "sstrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "geverist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Paul Gouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "kayaklk"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "bar06kal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "doneal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Kevincoughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "phillip"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Bob Shacklett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "nels65"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "tourdemars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:56 PM
Subject: My 2 Cents, in response to CARB and Gov. Proclimations
> How to delay the coming of the Electric Car FOR YEARS !! ...in 5 easy
> Steps
>
> 1. Give government grants to people who waist the money and the
> Opportunity on pie-in-the-sky research which never bares fruit for the
> public.
>
> 2. Limit the distribution of production electric cars to a chosen few
> cities and states and fleets..
>
> 3. Pad the automotive media with mis-information, such as " battery
> packs cost $20,000 to replace every 2 years. Electric cars are too
> slow, and too expensive. Etc. "
>
> 4. If you DO happen to see the big corporations build the finest
> electric car the world has ever seen, (i.e. GM EV-1 ) DON'T let any
> one buy one, lease it only, and when the leases are up, yank the cars
> away from their screaming owners, gather them all up and CRUSH THEM !!
>
> 5. Cloud the issue, with promises of Hydrogen Fuel Cell electric cars
> some time in the far far future, without the public realizing that
> instead of filling up their battery powered electric cars at home, at
> night. they will all have to fill up their hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric
> Cars at their EXXON, Shell, Texaco, Chevron, and BP hydrogen refueling
> stations, thereby giving all the POWER and Money to these corporate
> giants for Another 100 Years !!
>
> Just my 2 Cents
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 396-9189
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://slough1.home.mindspring.com/seva.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wonder if the producer of the documentary on the destruction of the US
electric railway system might do an update and add the EV1 as another
example of monopoly building. Lawrence Rhodes....
Subject: My 2 Cents, in response to CARB and Gov. Proclimations
> How to delay the coming of the Electric Car FOR YEARS !! ...in 5 easy
> Steps
>
> 1. Give government grants to people who waist the money and the
> Opportunity on pie-in-the-sky research which never bares fruit for the
> public.
>
> 2. Limit the distribution of production electric cars to a chosen few
> cities and states and fleets..
>
> 3. Pad the automotive media with mis-information, such as " battery
> packs cost $20,000 to replace every 2 years. Electric cars are too
> slow, and too expensive. Etc. "
>
> 4. If you DO happen to see the big corporations build the finest
> electric car the world has ever seen, (i.e. GM EV-1 ) DON'T let any
> one buy one, lease it only, and when the leases are up, yank the cars
> away from their screaming owners, gather them all up and CRUSH THEM !!
>
> 5. Cloud the issue, with promises of Hydrogen Fuel Cell electric cars
> some time in the far far future, without the public realizing that
> instead of filling up their battery powered electric cars at home, at
> night. they will all have to fill up their hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric
> Cars at their EXXON, Shell, Texaco, Chevron, and BP hydrogen refueling
> stations, thereby giving all the POWER and Money to these corporate
> giants for Another 100 Years !!
>
> Just my 2 Cents
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 396-9189
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://slough1.home.mindspring.com/seva.html
>
>
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Affordable is debatable. As far as I can tell, if the LiIon pack
> I just ordered is even 1/2 as good as the specifications, it should
> be CHEAPER per mile than a pack of Optima Yellow Tops - for my kind
> of usage.
Keep in mind that you are comparing the *real* performance of Optimas
against the *advertised* performance of LiIon.
> PFC-20 with MKIII regs. (MKIII's seem to be in the "Soon to be
> Available" category.)
For 3v cells?
> We will know in a few months. I'll be using my new pack by then.
I hope so! Thank you for your pioneering efforts and willingness to
serve as a 'guinea pig' for the rest of the EV community.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:14 AM 3/14/2003 -0800, Lee Hart stated:
Keep in mind that you are comparing the *real* performance of Optimas
against the *advertised* performance of LiIon.
Also that my normal usage is near the edge of what YT's can provide - and
so destroys them quicker than most EV's do.
> PFC-20 with MKIII regs. (MKIII's seem to be in the "Soon to be
> Available" category.)
For 3v cells?
Yup, discussing the minor changes needed with Sheer.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup. I was going about 5 km/hr too fast, maybe 10. Bummer.
Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I hate to say it, but some people just drive too fast in the snow.
You would think someone who lives most of their life in a snow area would
drive slower.
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--- Begin Message ---
Wonderful product! I've placed my orders. Definately going to be on my
Sparrow which I'm driving up to the Sacramento CARB meeting. Other ones
going on the Kewet for local family driving and errands.
Maybe you can come up with one for gas cars - like "I wish I only ran on
American Electrons..." or "My other car only runs on American Electrons".
-Ed Thorpe
Alameda, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Current pricing, based on recent information, small quantities. Shows that
NiZn and LiIon are competative for inital cost and have longer life that
PbA. Comparison based on YT size form.:
PbA - Optima YT
price $120
weight 45lb
voltage 12v nominal (13.2v rest, charges up to 14.9v)
capacity 55ah (C/20; 25ah at C/1 usable max)
storage 12v*26ah=312wh
price/wh $0.385
cyles 300 (spec)
NiZn - MB80-12-8
price $280
weight 36lb
voltage 12.8v (charges up to 16.0v)
capacity 68ah (0.8*68ah=54ah usable max)
storage 12.8v*54ah=691wh
price/wh $0.405
cyles 500 (spec)
LiIon - TS-LP8581A (4 cells)
price $520 (=4*130)
weight 27lb
voltage 14.8v nominal (=4*3.7v, charges up to 4*4.3=17.2v)
capacity 100ah (0.8*100ah=80ah usable max)
storage 14.8v*80ah=1184wh
price/wh $0.439
cyles 500 (spec)
LiIon - TS-LP90A (4 cells)
price $460 (=4*115)
weight 21lb
voltage 14.8v nominal (=4*3.7v)
capacity 90ah (0.8*100ah=72ah usable max)
storage 14.8v*72ah=1066wh
price/wh $0.432
cyles 500 (spec)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lawrence and all
I found what you were referring to, I guess. Interesting stuff!
http://www.newday.com/films/Taken_for_a_Ride.html
... and I also found this:
http://www.lava.net/cslater/TQ.HTM
also interesting. I wonder which view is more correct.
Lock
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wonder if the producer of the documentary on the destruction of the
> US
> electric railway system might do an update and add the EV1 as another
> example of monopoly building. Lawrence Rhodes....
>
> Subject: My 2 Cents, in response to CARB and Gov. Proclimations
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
>>> PFC-20 with MKIII regs. (MKIII's seem to be in the "Soon to be
>>> Available" category.)
>>For 3v cells?
> Yup, discussing the minor changes needed with Sheer.
Minor? I will be interested to see how they run a CPU off a battery that
could go below 2v under load or when discharged.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got a quoted price in the North Bay (California) of $165 + tax with a
2 week order time.
Michael B.
EV'r up LATE wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> What's the going price for group 31 yellow top Optimas these days?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do they really? I thought 2V was about the limit.. (2V is the lowest the CPU
will run on)
What is the lower voltage limit of a 3.6V LiON cell under load?
I expect the CPU goes away when the batteries go below 2V. Not the end of
the world, your data collector just doesn't get a answer from that board and
marks it down as 'below 2V'.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Future of LiIon
> John Lussmyer wrote:
> >>> PFC-20 with MKIII regs. (MKIII's seem to be in the "Soon to be
> >>> Available" category.)
>
> >>For 3v cells?
>
> > Yup, discussing the minor changes needed with Sheer.
>
> Minor? I will be interested to see how they run a CPU off a battery that
> could go below 2v under load or when discharged.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Current pricing, based on recent information, small quantities.
> Shows that NiZn and LiIon are competative for inital cost and
> have longer life that PbA. [snip]
Keep in mind that the Optima data is for a real battery that has been in
production for quite a while, and used in many EVs. The rest are still
mainly advertising information, and the manufacturer's promises, and
preliminary pricing that may not be realistic.
So, there is a lot of risk associated with the NiZn or LiIon options.
However, it is encouraging that at least we *have* options. It remains
for a few brave souls to explore them, so that we can all benefit from
their experience (a hearty thanks to Jon Pullen, Victor Tikhonov, etc.).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
>
> Someone, correct me, and please prove me wrong
> (I don't want to be right here).
I'm not going to debate this; I'm going to drive my EV with
LiIon pack for better or worse. Caution and skepticism of
seasoned EVers is understandable, so stick to lead acid until
someone proves for you it works. I have no problems with that.
My take on the issue is this (welcome to disagree as well):
Availability.
Yes, no one in the US makes EV size packs. This is not technical
issue. Speaking of most affordable Thunder-sky manufacturer (there are
others), if Chinese can make it, Americans can for sure. Positics
are OT. You're free to order directly from manufacturer from
overseas at any time, so what do you mean "not readily available".
Same situation with Brusa AC systems chargers and counters
(only from Switzerland), Saft NiCds (only France) EV vac pumps
and heaters (MES Switzerland) but no one complains those are
not available. Same thing.
Charging:
According to the manufacturer of the cells we're getting,
is not more complicated than PbA charging; in fact simpler.
As many know, they recommend 0.3C max CC up to 4.25V and CV until
current drops to 0.01C. Done. No float charge, no equalize charge,
no trickle charge. Moreover (and I'm skeptical of this but don't know
enough to debate), as long as you're staying within working temp
range (top limit is 70'C), there is no temp compensation for
charging needed. LiIons do perform worse when too cold, but
you're suppose to still charge at 0.3C max to 4.25V.
Monitoring: this is very important and better be implemented.
If you can get away without it with PbA, you risk relative cheap
pack, with LiIon you risk more expensive one, but this is all
the difference. Many serious EVers have balancing systems
for PbA packs and bus based monitoring systems with dash
bar graphs displays. Such a system for LiIon is no more
complicated, just more channels to display. As long as you don't
overcharge, and equalize, you're safe and well whether you see it
on dash or not.
Performance:
I cannot comment much; my 2 cells work well in series with
PbA pack in ACRX. Will see. I have test report in front of me
as I type this; I will scan it and put on my site.
This is independent test of the Thunder-sky LiIon cells
equipped car done in China. I had it translated.
It states:
=========
Test in real road passenger car.
Car dimensions: 4120 x 1620 x 1396 mm
Car total weight: 1210 kg
nom motor power 12 kW
Max motor power 25 kW
A/C used - no freon (R134a)
Battery weight: 252 kg
Cells used: 105
Cells type: 100 Ah
Other: Video/Audio equipment used in the car
Test Date: Feb 20 2001
Route [I didn't translate, names of cities here]
Surface:
45% city, 27% suburb, 28% freeway; 8% of all is hilly
Weather Conditions
18-28'C sunny 50%-80% humidity, wind=2...3 points
Occupancy: 4 people 65 kg each
A/C run all the time, VCD video player run for 6 hrs 38 min
head lights used 6 times for 2 hrs 5 min total.
Range with above conditions - 383 km per charge
Top speed 120 km/h
==========
Draw your conclusions.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: BMS for Li-Ion cells cost question
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 00:34:59 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Victor,
I am still very interested in these batteries even though I didn't get in on
your group buy. I am just not ready for them yet. If I were to get them I
would seriously consider getting the 42V pack they offer with the built in
BMS if I can find out some info about it. I believe you stated that it cost
$195. I like the idea of having it all put together by the manufacturer and
1 42V pack may be enough for my motorcycle.
I guess what I am trying to say is that for every 42V pack I would be
willing to fork out a couple hundred extra for BMS, especially if it came
from the manufacturer.
damon
>From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: ev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: BMS for Li-Ion cells cost question
>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:46:25 -0800
>
>Fellows,
>
>Since relatively few of us have ability knowledge skills or time
>to design and build a BMS, but everyone has ability to pay for it,
>probably first group or people will come up with BMS solution for the
>second group.
>
>Question: how much will you be willing to spend for basic BMS
>which only protects your cells from overcharge and keeps them fairly
>in balance, but nothing else?
>
>It should allow you to plug in your EV for charge and forget it,
>but no fancy displays, data collection, downloads etc. Indication
>is minimal, like one or two "idiot light" LEDs marked
>"Attention needed" or "Alarm" or similar.
>
>Let say your LiIon pack is $5k.
>
>Will you buy basic BMS for it for $1k (20% of the pack cost)?
>
>For $500 (10% of the pack cost) ?
>
>For $250 (5%) ?
>
>Only for less than $250?
>
>
>Also, if your pack cost is twice as much - $10k, will you be
>willing to pay more for BMS (may not be twice, but more)?
>
>Please what is your decision criteria in general?
>Few people are developing stuff for you and what you may get
>largely depends on your answers.
>
>Thank you in advance,
>
>Victor
>
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