EV Digest 2651
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Propping up capacity (was: Future of LiIon)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Propping up capacity (was: Future of LiIon)
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: GEM dumping
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement. Don't forget the
differential.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Electric Supra?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Magnecharger power requirements...
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Magnecharger power requirements...
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Peter Gruendeman & Stirling Engine
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 9 inch at high rpm
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Future of LiIon
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Help! Transmission switch needed
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Propping up capacity (was: Future of LiIon)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Link10 and DC-to-DC converter woes
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Link10 and DC-to-DC converter woes
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Twelve 8v batterys in a leopard
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you do the cost-benefit analysis, you will quickly discover
> that it makes no sense whatsoever to attempt to compensate for
> lost battery capacity with a BMS.
I'm sorry Bill, but I don't agree. My BMS is proving otherwise. I am
certainly seeing a benefit in life. I have a set of Concorde GPC-1295
AGM batteries. They are just over 5 years old, and have about 520 cycles
on them at a average depth of discharge of 50%. Many others have tried
Concordes, and had dissapointing life. I don't know of anyone who has
gotten even half the life out of a set that I have with my Balancer.
These batteries cost me about $1500, so doubling their life has saved me
$1500 for a second set. My hand-made one-off Balancer cost me about
$1000; so I am already $500 ahead.
> When batteries die, they typically lose capacity relatively
> quickly. (Look at any cycle versus capacity curve and you will
> see what I mean.)
Laboratory tests used fixed charge-discharge cycles that aren't
representative of the real world. For instance, they don't reduce
charging voltage as the battery ages, so it gets progressively
overcharged as it nears the end of life. They use a fixed load current,
which might be the 2-hour rate for the new battery, but the 1-hour rate
when it is old. Such factors exaggerate the drop in capacity, forcing an
earlier end.
In real-world use, you can considerably extend battery life by careful
charging; avoiding over- and under-charging, and adapting charging to
the battery's actual characteristics as it ages. You can limit depth of
discharge (50% helps a lot, instead of the 80% used in life tests). You
can reduce your load as the battery ages, to keep your depth of
discharge at 50% even as capacity falls (drive slower and less distance
as the pack ages to avoid murdering it). Many who have driven EVs know
that these things can easily double your battery life.
But, you have to do these things manually. Usually, only one or two
batteries are suffering, but you have to limit the whole pack to
accommodate the weak ones. A BMS does them automatically.
> If you add, say, 10 amp-hrs to a dying Optima, you will extend its
> life by maybe 20 cycles, often less.
Do you have any data to support this? I have never seen a cycle life
curve drop off that fast unless the battery was being brutally
overcharged.
> Since you typically are drawing power at the one-hour rate, you
> will have to add 10 amps or more to prop up this battery that is
> 10 A-hrs below the rest of the pack.
That's right. My balancer delivers 15 amps, and can go to 30 amps with a
bigger DC/DC. You have a Zivan Smoother, I believe? It may be that it
doesn't deliver enough balancing current to do any good for weak
batteries.
> How many weak batteries will you have to prop up over the years to
> make up the cost of adding the ability to pump 10 amps out of the BMS?
My batteries originally delivered 45ah at the 1-hour rate. At the
moment, I have 1 weak battery out of 11. Now, they deliver 30-40ah at
this rate, except for the weak one which is 16ah. The Balancer can put
15ah into the weak one, thus propping it up to 30ah, so it is no longer
the weak link.
> It is much, much, cheaper to simply replace the weak battery and size
> the BMS to take care of just self-discharge and charge efficiency
> imbalances.
But, if you replace a single battery and have no BMS, you will rapidly
destroy the new battery because its performance is so different from the
rest.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dube writes:
> If you do the cost-benefit analysis, you will quickly discover
> that it makes no sense whatsoever to attempt to compensate for lost battery
> capacity with a BMS. Each amp you add to the BMS costs much more than the
> slight extension of battery life that it gets you.
>
> When batteries die, they typically lose capacity relatively
> quickly. (Look at any cycle versus capacity curve and you will see what I
> mean.) If you add, say, 10 amp-hrs to a dying Optima, you will extend its
> life by maybe 20 cycles, often less. This is worth $10, at most. Since you
> typically are drawing power at the one-hour rate, you will have to add 10
> amps or more to prop up this battery that is 10 A-hrs below the rest of the
> pack. How many weak batteries will you have to prop up over the years to
> make up the cost of adding the ability to pump 10 amps out of the BMS?
>
> Keep in mind that it adds a lot of cost to beef up the entire
> system for each additional amp. It is much, much, cheaper to simply replace
> the weak battery and size the BMS to take care of just self-discharge and
> charge efficiency imbalances. This means an amp or less for a continuos
> operating type systems mentioned above.
Allow me to disagree, based on my 6 year experience with a BADICHEQ in a 1995
Solectria Force running 13 East Penn GelTech 8G27s. These are sealed, valve-
regulated, gelled electrolyte blocks and I think of them in the same terms as
the other advanced-chemistry batteries. Namely they are intollerent of over-
charge and over-discharge because there is no way to replace loss chemicals (in
PbA, hydrogen and sulphur). You cannot add water or acid the way you can with
flooded cells.
I did not have a BADICHEQ for the first year I drove the Force and I replaced 1
block about 4 years on. I think it was weakened during a few deep discharges
in that first year. The BADICHEQ quickly identified block 6 as the one to
watch and when it finally proved to be the weakest block by far, I pulled it.
The evidence of outgasing led me to my speculations as to the cause of its
early demise, relative to the rest. The other 12 are the originals and getting
weak enough that I am considering replacement, although the warming weather
will make the issue less urgent.
I think the > ideal < charging scheme would charge each > cell < of a long
string cells, 78 in the Force, individually. That way every cell would be
treated exactly right; no overcharging, and less chance of deep discharging,
since each cell would always be starting from a full charge. I am assuming
frequent full charge cycles here.
The BADICHEQ in my car is wired to each block (6 cells). That is less than
ideal, but at least each block is treated properly. True, individuals can get
out of balance within a block, but the process is less likely to be aggrevated
the way it is when the only voltage the charger can see is from the most-
positive and most negative terminals.
If the charger can only sense the pack voltage, the damage caused by a block
that reaches full charge before the rest quickly cascades. If one block gets
to full charge first, while all the rest are still some distance away, the
total voltage of the pack will still be low enough that the charger will
continue to charge at considerable current. The result? That fully charged
block is overcharged, evolves hydrogen, and looses capacity. There is now less
energy capacity in that block, so it discharges quicker. Charge up again and
the condition worsens, steadily.
When the BADICHEQ is controlling the high current charger, it cuts off as soon
as > any < block reaches full charge voltage. Ideally, that is when > all <
the blocks reach full charge, but it isn't an ideal world. Even matched sets
of blocks drift away from each other on every cycle. If there are deep
discharges, the drift is faster.
The normal way of treating the inbalance is to put a 12 Volt charger on each
block periodically and bring it to full charge. Time consuming, and often not
easy to do if the appropriate wiring hasn't been done.
The BADICHEQ in effect puts a 20 Watt charger on the weakest blocks, the ones
furthest from full charge voltage during the "regular" charging cycle, and
brings them up to full-charge voltage.
My conclusion is if you want a trouble free EV, the best way to treat the
batteries is with an intellegent charger that handles the individual blocks as
gently as possible.
The BADICHEQ was about $4000 installed (if I remember correctly) and I'm at 7.5
years on those orginal blocks. For me, it was money well spent. I have had to
open the battery boxes only to tighten connections.
I do count the blocks to be sure they are all there ;)
So the point of a BADICHEQ or its like is not adding Amperes to blocks. It is
to keep the chemestry of the cells in peak condition by bringing them to full
"equalized" charge at every chance and never, ever over charging.
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
190 Loantaka Way
Madison NJ 07940-1910
+1 973 822-2085 Voice and Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Create videos of auditorium and classroom presentations without a crew?
Yes!
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
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> If one wants to bag one of these, the four seaters usually
> go for $5k. Also, check how many miles were put on it,
> and who drove it.
>
> I noticed many around 3k.
If it was pre-owned or a return, it is
> likely the batteries were drained beyond their half way
> point, the nEV crawled home, and the batteries are damaged.
> If so, you will be replacing the batteries. Know the
> cost of a replacement pack of six 12V group 27 batteries
> See http://usbattery.com or http://trojanbattery.com
I saw two versions of the group 27s. One was 4 pounds heavier and more
capacity. It cost 12 dollars more. I wonder which will have more cycle
life? If you bought a vehicle with dead batteries it will cost 600 bucks to
re battery. Lawrence Rhodes....
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Cotter keys? Oh man. This baby needs some attention. The axle just had
two nuts. One on each side. I need to drill two holes in the axle and get
some cotter bolts.(is that what they are called?) Loosing an axle isn't
fun. Next step. Checking out the differential. What oil(synthetic I
hope)to put in a 60's vintage cart differential. Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
> Jack the front end up.
> Loosen the axle nuts a couple turns each.
> Spin the tire by hand.
> Tighten nuts a little bit at a time until it spins down slightly slower
than
> with the nuts loose. (this indicates the onset of binding)
> Back off about 1/12 turn on each axle nut.
> If lash is OK, install the cotter keys.
> Remove jack.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 12:18 AM
> Subject: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
>
>
> > I am not quit sure how
> > to adjust the bearings. It seems that tapping the dust cap down untill
> the
> > play stops might be the way. The fork just has two tubular holes to put
> the
> > axle thru. It rolled easily but one of the bearings is trashed and
making
> a
> > thumping noise so I figure it could be better. Anybody point me in the
> > right direction for assistance? I know where to get the bearings.
> > Adjustment is the problem.
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I have heard that trailer tires and wheels are the same bolt pattern. A 5
bolt is a 5 bolt that is. I could change to a narrower tire that way. I
suspect I don't need such a wide tire. Might help top speed a bit and
certainly better range. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
> Finding a tire will be no problem. 18X9.50-8 might be hard to find
> but the slightly narrower 18X8.50-8 is a standard golf cart size and also
> used on garden tractors.
>
> Tom Shay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 12:18 AM
> Subject: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
>
>
> > The Laher cart has an axle. Two bolts. Two tapered roller bearings.
> Some
> > spacers. Two races. Two pressure fittings to hold in the bearings in
and
> > act as dust caps. 5 bolt 18 inch tires. Very wide. I am not quit sure
> how
> > to adjust the bearings. It seems that tapping the dust cap down untill
> the
> > play stops might be the way. The fork just has two tubular holes to put
> the
> > axle thru. It rolled easily but one of the bearings is trashed and
making
> a
> > thumping noise so I figure it could be better. Anybody point me in the
> > right direction for assistance? I know where to get the bearings.
> > Adjustment is the problem. The wheel is 9 1/4 inch in diameter. 5 bolt
> > pattern. 18 X9.50 - 8. Very wide. Two ply rated. Might a narrower
> trailer
> > tire work. They are Carlisle ribbed & the back are Turfsavers.
> Lawrence
> > Rhodes.....
> >
> >
>
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Well, you will have a relatively safe ar as it will have large brakes
and rugged components that can deal with battery mass, with some
tradeoff being higher rolling losses with the bigger parts, more mass
and I assume wider tires. I think a manual box and clutch shouldn't be
too hard to retrofit. Unless you want the automatic.
I bet it overheats because the water pump impeller is loose on the
shaft. It will work at tickover, but slip at elevated speed. But don't
tell him that or you will lose a nice conversion donor ;)
Seth
Richard Bebbington wrote:
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> A friend of mine is selling his 1990 Toyota Supra
> cheap, supposedly because he needs the room for his
> other toy, a vicious snarling Nissan Pulsar.
> Personally I think he's crazy to be selling it, but
> he is, and here's where my evil mind starts plotting....
>
> This car has mint condition bodywork, but has overheating
> problems. It can idle all day in the driveway, but as soon as
> it gets driven, it overheats. The car has suffered from the
> dreaded head-gasket failure, and that has been repaired,
> ( very expensive! :-O ) but still has problems.
>
> I'm starting to wonder about converting it -
> - using something like twin 8 or 9 inch motors,
> 24 odd Optimas and a Zilla.... this way, there would
> still be 300 HP of fun available, just electric fun
> rather than noisy smelly ICE fun!
>
> The car's rear-wheel drive, with automatic box,
> and has acres of room under the hood. So much
> of the conversion would be pretty standard stuff,
> apart from the auto box ( remove the torque converter? )
>
> Is this even a remotely sensible idea? Or is it
> just plain evil? ;-)
>
> If I did do this, it'd make a great commuting car,
> and would probably last a lot longer than an electric
> Mini ( rust-wise )...
>
> Hmmm....
>
> Richard Bebbington
> Electric Mini pickup
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Thought I'd try hooking up my MagneCharger to the Prizm this weekend.
Yesterday I wired a quick 20amp 220 volt service up, plugged in the MC, and
plugged it into the fully charged Prizm.
Fired right up, charged the batteries at 7amps for an hour, then shut down.
Good.
Today I took the car for a quick ride (6 amp hours), then plugged it in and
watched the Link-10
340 volts at 5,8,10,15,20 amps! Then the breaker popped. 20 amps at 240
volts is about 6,800 watts.
Well now...
Just how big a circuit does a MagneCharger *need*? 40 amps? 45?
If this thing can charge at >6,000 watts, then wow: I can take the car from
empty to full in about 2 hours. How big can Magnechargers be?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris,
Input power
208-240 VAC single-phase, 40 A RMS (max), 50/60 Hz
Output Power
6.6kW Max
See http://www.etecevs.com/chargers/wm7200.html
I've got a 40A circuit breaker for mine.
Alex Karahalios
On Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 03:12 PM, Christopher Zach wrote:
Just how big a circuit does a MagneCharger *need*? 40 amps? 45?
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How can I get in touch with Peter Gruendeman to find out more details on
the STIRLING ENGINE he intends to use in that Prius ?
Thanks.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
1. Dear EAA East Coast Friends,
Peter Gruendeman has been attempting to "hot rod" a Prius with an
improved
alternator and Stirling engine.
Relatedly, a new DC area motor company by the name of WaveCrest Labs,
located near Dulles Airport in Virginia, specializes in "adaptive motor
technology" based upon some patented magnetics principles from a Russian
inventor, and are promoting their motors for a variety of E-bike and EV
applications.
The WaveCrest URL is
www.wavecrestlabs.com
See the new Power of DC NEDRA site:
www.powerofdc.com
For the latest updates on EVA/DC meetings:
www.evadc.org
Dave Goldstein
EVA/DC President
Gaithersburg, MD
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
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Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> The seating position bothers my hips when pulling high G turns.
> It is fine in a straight line or gentle turns.
> All my autocross cars had knee pads to take the strain off my hips and
> prevent cramps.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 5:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Go-Kart is a Goer!
>
> > > The legs go over the top of the batteries. Most go karts are driven with
> > the
> > > knees bent at a 90 degree angle.
> >
> > That's right, it sounds rather awkward but it's actually not that bad when
> > you are sitting in the thing and driving it around.
> >
Joe's Mustang from Hell was a rather impressive car. You strapped it on
like a fighter Jet. One of the most brutal toys I have ever played with.
1 G in all directions, over 1 on braking and like 1.5 on a hot drag
launch. Yea I know Rails can get over 2.5 Gs on launch, TMfHell did it
with 3800 lbs and 2.75 rear end gears, did a Buck fifty on the straights
at SIR, and hung with the big boys from MicroSoft, for about %1 of thier
cashflow.
When you climbed into it Joe had closed cell foam pads on the door, and
some pads on the tranny tunnel. I could NOT drive it without removing
these since my umm hieght to girth is NOT 6'-4", and 160 lbs.
We were out at the ORV Tayhula State park yesterday, in the rain, and
mud. Joe's current toy it a VW powered Sand rail/Buggy. I can't drive it
because the pedal are 6 inches too far away and my butt gets pinched so
hard that it goes numb in about 30 seconds. Sigh!! Joe took it
submersable, and watered dowdn the Carb and distributor, barley got it
back. I am sore from head to toe, I drowned my ATV, and got it back
after having to search maps and follow the Jeeps out. It's a big place,
and I got kinda turned around.
I got a nice $95 ticket for not knowing what the organe diamond means,
and not having ORV tags on.
This ATV was supposed to go Electric, but the ICE engine works soo
good, that I am having a tough time killing it!! I've got motors,
controllers, batteries, and the rest, but I can't kill a living ICE ATV.
It's a 4 stroke, so it's not really a stinker. If it was a 2 stroke,
well it would be in the EV Photo album already.
Anybody on the West coast have a Kawasaki KLF300 motor tranny that has a
good tranny sectiona and a scattered engine section???
The tanny has such a low drive ratio that it looks like I need 100 +
ft/lbs of drive shaft torque to match the first gear torque. Making 100
Ft/lbs of motor shaft twist is about 400 amps on a 8 incher. This is a
little excessive. The final drive is a 4:88 to one. I really need a
8-10:1 and about 1/3 the motor snort. Direct drive is not a real good
engineering idea in this ATV. A 8 inch on a ATV, and 40 Lions... and
Well THAT would be a Fast ATV. Goldie power on a 500 lbs frame. HUmm
zero to Dead in 4.75 Seconds.
A ATV Ev really wants to be 48 to 72 volts, and 300 to 500 amps. This
should be plenty to hang onto.
What kinda a market could this be?
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
Martin Jackson wrote:
>
> Hi Rich & Alain;
>
> I Wrote:
>
> > More importantly, I've been looking at the 9 inch ADC motor data from
> > various sources and have a caution. Above 5000 rpm, the internal
> > fan becomes less effective. When I know more, I'll write something
> > better. In the meantime, watch motor temperature at high rpm combined
> > with high Amps. With the fan flowing less, the motor will heat up
> > faster at constant Amps. Good luck with your move.
>
> Rich wrote:
>
> "This is NOT a issue. The fan takes more HP to spin at high rpms, but the
> Fan does move LOTS of air up there.
> centrifugal fans take more HP as a square of the tip rpm. But that's ok
> for cooling!!!"
>
> The power taken by the fan drops severely above 120 V and 5000 rpm
> according to test data I believe was provided by ADC. That data shows
> an increase in efficiency to 95 % which is not otherwise explicable.
>
> The source was a curve I got from the web somewhere (wish I knew
> where) that is larger, but the same as fig. 7-8, p. 185 in Brants
> 'Build Your Own Electric Vehicle'. If you look at the 120 V line, the
> speed jumps up such that the line isn't in the same family as the
> others.
>
> The test data is the product of a standard test procedure that I don't
> have access to, but which does demonstrate variability in efficiency
> suggesting data was taken both cold (loading) and hot (unloading).
>
> I have generated equations for the loss (1 - efficiency) and the
> fan is apparently in stall at this point. This wouldn't affect a small
> car, but might be noticeable in a truck cruising at 5000 rpm for a
> long time. This can be explained in part by the need for the motor to
> be able to turn in both directions and it is not optimized for best
> stall performance. My analysis isn't finished and checked, so I am
> only urging caution.
> ______________________________________________________________________
Martin you are a very good detail guy.
This aberation is a moot point. Running at 5k all day is not going to
happen at 120 V.
The Back EMF curves at 120VDC says you won't be making any useable
amounts of torque that high. The motors go to sleep up there at 120.
It's debatable that you could generate enough heat to get in trouble.
This all changes with higher voltages and lower RPM of course.
As these next number show, it's not even debatable.
Also I have NEVER seen a AvDC motor chart that goes over %90 eff at any
load or speed. If just don't work that way. Even ACP sine wave drives
don't get over %94 .
Lets add some data shall we??
AvDC cold Perf motor Charcteristics Revised 9-17-91 G.D, as I recall
Gary Diederhoff...Mr. AvDC at the time
FB1-4001 9" CCW rot Fan cooled.
Peak Eff is at 4300rpm from 25 ft/lbs to 40. 150 to 250 amps. Eff peak
is VERY broad, going over %83 at 14 lbs and not under until 80 ft/lbs.
or 100 amp to 425 amps.
But at 120 VDC and 5000 rpm, this motor can only generate 28 ft/lbs of
torque. This correspondes to 180 amps. Wich is within the continuous
rating of this motor.
So Like I said, not a issue.
I would run this motor at this high speed to COOL it down. As I do on
the return run from Drag racing my 8 incher in Goldie. I have the Rev
limit set to 5500 and I just leave it in first and pegged.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > The Mk3 is intended to be a datalogger, to keep track of what you
> > have done to your poor battery. A datalogger that doesn't work
> > under adverse conditions is failing to save data exactly when you
> > may want it most.
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Correction Lee!! The MK3 also will have a Reg Function, and be
> > able to be programmed down the wire.
>
> Sorry, Rich. I didn't mean the Mk3's *only* function was datalogging;
> just that *one* of its functions was datalogging. That means it should
> keep working even under adverse conditions.
>
> > Also as Sheer has put it bluntly, if a Reg Browns out, well it's
> > under 2.00 volts and the Host system can just mark the absent data
> > as less than 2.00 volts, Take apropriate actions!
>
> It's 2v at the micro; there is obviously circuity between the battery
> and micro, so the battery is at some higher voltage when the micro
> crashes.
>
> Also, the data becomes useless well before the micro actually crashes.
> Once the reference quits working, your voltage measurements don't work.
>
> 2.00v on any chemistry even single cells of Lion is DEATH mode.
>
> The LiIon could be momentarily pulled down to 2v under a heavy load. You
> don't want the micro to crash or log bad data when this happens, do you?
>
> The last design I saw for the Mk3 was designed only for 12v batteries.
> It would be quite a stretch to use it for 3v LiIon cells. I think it
> needs a whole new design.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Momentary brown outs like high current draws can be survived with a
large 5 rail cap, and a diode.
the current Mk3 I agree, and should be across 3 or 4 Lion cells.
a version of the Mk2 can run that low, but the Opamps go from 38 cent
each to 2.50 each.
The conceptual MK4 will have multi cell capability. Right now 8 cells
for EverCell uses is as far as we have gotten. This won't be a cheap
Reg...
The Mk3 have to be stable and in production making a profit before I
start sinking R&D bucks into the MK4.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
You did a very good job of repairing the shift cable!
It still works fine.
I removed the high speed switch and checked its operation
with the ohmeter and it was bad.
I connected a twisted pair to the wire harness and ran
it into the van with a toggle switch. I drove the van 25 miles
today using the toggle switch when I shifted into high gear with
no problems (this was interesting, flipping the toggle switch after
shifting into high gear!). I'll have to post a better picture of
the switch, but I will try Dave's part number to get a new one.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 12:17 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Help! Transmission switch needed
Rod, I believe that is a standard Dodge backup light switch. Any decent
auto parts place or Dodge dealer should be able to get one for you. If
that is on my old TEVan, I would be suspect that is not the real
problem. When I received the van, it did not operate in high. I too
thought it was the switch, but it turned out to be the shift cable
itself. The end had not been crimped on correctly. I crimped it myself,
and then to reinforce it, covered it with heavy duty heat shrink. I would
suspect the repair may have failed, allowing the cable to lengthen enough
to prevent proper shifting. Included with the parts shipped with the van
was a new replacement shift cable still in the box. It arrived after the
van, and after I had repaired the original cable so I never installed
it. I would start there. If you really think it is the switch, I would
swap the high and low speed switches and see if the problem remains with
the high speed one.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Force (x2)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
At 11:10 AM 3/16/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>You can see a picture of the switch here;
>http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/speedsw.jpg
>
>This is the high speed (2nd gear) switch on my Dodge TEVan.
>Specifics
>-normally open
>-0.55" outside diameter of thread (16-18? threads per inch)
>-switch activated with steel ball that sticks out about 0.125" beyond
>threaded part.
>-15/16" hex mounting nut (although this dimensions isn't important, could
be
>3/4" or 7/8"
>-two spade terminals to connect the harness.
>Anybody know where I can get this type of switch?
>
>Thanks,
>Rod
>www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The last person to service the front wheel of the cart used the (very
massive) dust cap to force the adjustment of the bearings. Wrong. One side
did have a spacer that contacts the bearing and floats through dust cap the
other side didn't and the dust cap was forced in. This probably contributed
to the bearing failure. I need to find another spacer, get cotter pin nuts
and drill two holes in the right place in the axle. Then I need to adjust
the bearings properly. Thanks for the adjstment tips. Lawrence
Rhodes......I hope I don't have to machine the spacer myself..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
> Jack the front end up.
> Loosen the axle nuts a couple turns each.
> Spin the tire by hand.
> Tighten nuts a little bit at a time until it spins down slightly slower
than
> with the nuts loose. (this indicates the onset of binding)
> Back off about 1/12 turn on each axle nut.
> If lash is OK, install the cotter keys.
> Remove jack.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 12:18 AM
> Subject: Golfcart front bearing rebuild. Tire replacement.
>
>
> > I am not quit sure how
> > to adjust the bearings. It seems that tapping the dust cap down untill
> the
> > play stops might be the way. The fork just has two tubular holes to put
> the
> > axle thru. It rolled easily but one of the bearings is trashed and
making
> a
> > thumping noise so I figure it could be better. Anybody point me in the
> > right direction for assistance? I know where to get the bearings.
> > Adjustment is the problem.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:39 PM 3/16/03, you wrote:
Bill Dube writes:
> If you do the cost-benefit analysis, you will quickly discover
> that it makes no sense whatsoever to attempt to compensate for lost battery
> capacity with a BMS. Each amp you add to the BMS costs much more than the
> slight extension of battery life that it gets you.
>
> When batteries die, they typically lose capacity relatively
> quickly. (Look at any cycle versus capacity curve and you will see what I
> mean.) If you add, say, 10 amp-hrs to a dying Optima, you will extend its
> life by maybe 20 cycles, often less. This is worth $10, at most. Since you
> typically are drawing power at the one-hour rate, you will have to add 10
> amps or more to prop up this battery that is 10 A-hrs below the rest of the
> pack. How many weak batteries will you have to prop up over the years to
> make up the cost of adding the ability to pump 10 amps out of the BMS?
>
> Keep in mind that it adds a lot of cost to beef up the entire
> system for each additional amp. It is much, much, cheaper to simply replace
> the weak battery and size the BMS to take care of just self-discharge and
> charge efficiency imbalances. This means an amp or less for a continuos
> operating type systems mentioned above.
Allow me to disagree, based on my 6 year experience with a BADICHEQ in a 1995
Solectria Force running 13 East Penn GelTech 8G27s. These are sealed, valve-
regulated, gelled electrolyte blocks and I think of them in the same terms as
the other advanced-chemistry batteries. Namely they are intollerent of over-
charge and over-discharge because there is no way to replace loss
chemicals (in
PbA, hydrogen and sulphur). You cannot add water or acid the way you can with
flooded cells.
I am NOT (NOT) N_O_T proposing the elimination of the BMS. A BMS
will greatly extend the life of the pack.
What I am saying is that it is not worth increasing the SIZE of a
BMS to cover a low-capacity battery. You SAVE MONEY by keeping the amperage
capacity of the BMS to 2 amps or so and simply replacing the failed battery.
In a nutshell, a 2 amp BMS will extend the life of the pack
virtually the same as a 30 amp BMS.
It makes no economic sense to pay for the addition of the extra
amps. These extra amps merely extend the life of a single failed battery
within the pack by a few weeks. In "saving" this failed battery, the rest
of the pack is subjected to deeper discharges, reducing their life span.
The net gain in cycle life is nothing and you are out of pocket for the
cost of increasing the size of the BMS.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a similar problem when I first installed my E-Meter, and this fixed
it.
However, I now have a problem with the whole 12V system going down when I
turn a corner too fast. I have to wait awhile, or bump the aux.battery box
behind the seat to get it to come back on!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Link10 and DC-to-DC converter woes
> Hi Seth,
> I'm going to take a leap and say that either a)
> your leads are not twisted, or b) you have one of the
> older series of Link 10s that need a surge suppression
> circuit (or some derivative thereof). It consists of
> a 1000 uF capacitor, a couple of resistors; I have the
> schematic around here somewhere, but I think Lee has
> it in ASCII.
> Hope you de-bug the situation.
>
> --- Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > hi mark -
> >
> > do you have a separate isolated DC/DC converter for
> > the EMeter? I
> > think your problem could be from some sort of ground
> > fault, although
> > I'm not sure. Good luck
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 02:27 PM, Mark
> > Dodrill wrote:
> >
> > > I'm having trouble with my Link10 meter resetting
> > itself many times
> > > during
> > > the course of my driving and charging, and I'm
> > hoping someone on the
> > > list
> > > can help me out. I have a 120v DC system, with a
> > Sevcon Generation II
> > > DC-to-DC converter (128v to 12v it says on the
> > box), with an accessory
> > > battery. The way it is wired, the DC to DC
> > converter is always on,
> > > when the
> > > main disconnect isn't cut out (which basically
> > means all the time).
> > > The
> > > DC-to-DC converter output is set to 14.2 volts.
> > >
> > > The symptom is the Link10 turning off briefly,
> > then flashing, as it
> > > does
> > > when it doesn't have enough voltage to maintain
> > its state. It happens
> > > during charging and during discharging, but more
> > often during
> > > discharging.
> > > It happens when there is both small and large
> > draws on the pack. It
> > > happens
> > > when there is little DC-to-DC converter load, and
> > when there is a lot,
> > > but
> > > more often when there is a lot of load (30 amps @
> > 12v is the max of the
> > > DC-to-DC converter). I can't seem to come up with
> > any definite
> > > scenario or
> > > reason why it might reset at one time, and not
> > another. Sometimes, it
> > > will
> > > reset 10 or so times in a row, with nothing else
> > changing, which is
> > > very
> > > weird. It also doesn't seem to matter if the pack
> > is freshly charged
> > > or
> > > not.
> > >
> > > I changed over from a Panasonic 12v accessory
> > battery that is at least
> > > several years old, to two 6v UPS batteries in
> > series, and after I
> > > changed
> > > this out, it seemed to be better for a while, but
> > now it's back to
> > > what it
> > > was.
> > >
> > > I should probably change the setup to only have
> > the DC-to-DC converter
> > > on
> > > when the key is on, but I don't see how that
> > relates to this problem.
> > > Any
> > > ideas on what is wrong or what else I should try?
> > The wiring to the
> > > E-meter
> > > seems to be fine, and it isn't moving.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your thoughts.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> >
> > http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, Seth - I just sent another one to your name via the list. Bob Bath
got it wrong, and I replied to his message.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Link10 and DC-to-DC converter woes
> hey guys - I have personally received a couple of responses to mark's
> post. My emeter works fine, Mark needs the help, not me :-)
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 02:58 PM, Bob Bath wrote:
>
> > Hi Seth,
> > I'm going to take a leap and say that either a)
> > your leads are not twisted, or b) you have one of the
> > older series of Link 10s that need a surge suppression
> > circuit (or some derivative thereof). It consists of
> > a 1000 uF capacitor, a couple of resistors; I have the
> > schematic around here somewhere, but I think Lee has
> > it in ASCII.
> > Hope you de-bug the situation.
> >
> > --- Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> hi mark -
> >>
> >> do you have a separate isolated DC/DC converter for
> >> the EMeter? I
> >> think your problem could be from some sort of ground
> >> fault, although
> >> I'm not sure. Good luck
> >>
> >> Seth
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 02:27 PM, Mark
> >> Dodrill wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm having trouble with my Link10 meter resetting
> >> itself many times
> >>> during
> >>> the course of my driving and charging, and I'm
> >> hoping someone on the
> >>> list
> >>> can help me out. I have a 120v DC system, with a
> >> Sevcon Generation II
> >>> DC-to-DC converter (128v to 12v it says on the
> >> box), with an accessory
> >>> battery. The way it is wired, the DC to DC
> >> converter is always on,
> >>> when the
> >>> main disconnect isn't cut out (which basically
> >> means all the time).
> >>> The
> >>> DC-to-DC converter output is set to 14.2 volts.
> >>>
> >>> The symptom is the Link10 turning off briefly,
> >> then flashing, as it
> >>> does
> >>> when it doesn't have enough voltage to maintain
> >> its state. It happens
> >>> during charging and during discharging, but more
> >> often during
> >>> discharging.
> >>> It happens when there is both small and large
> >> draws on the pack. It
> >>> happens
> >>> when there is little DC-to-DC converter load, and
> >> when there is a lot,
> >>> but
> >>> more often when there is a lot of load (30 amps @
> >> 12v is the max of the
> >>> DC-to-DC converter). I can't seem to come up with
> >> any definite
> >>> scenario or
> >>> reason why it might reset at one time, and not
> >> another. Sometimes, it
> >>> will
> >>> reset 10 or so times in a row, with nothing else
> >> changing, which is
> >>> very
> >>> weird. It also doesn't seem to matter if the pack
> >> is freshly charged
> >>> or
> >>> not.
> >>>
> >>> I changed over from a Panasonic 12v accessory
> >> battery that is at least
> >>> several years old, to two 6v UPS batteries in
> >> series, and after I
> >>> changed
> >>> this out, it seemed to be better for a while, but
> >> now it's back to
> >>> what it
> >>> was.
> >>>
> >>> I should probably change the setup to only have
> >> the DC-to-DC converter
> >>> on
> >>> when the key is on, but I don't see how that
> >> relates to this problem.
> >>> Any
> >>> ideas on what is wrong or what else I should try?
> >> The wiring to the
> >>> E-meter
> >>> seems to be fine, and it isn't moving.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your thoughts.
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> >>
> >> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> >> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
> > http://webhosting.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
>
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack, welcome!
The range is directly proportional to weight in lead-acid - so your range
will decrease by the amount of weight in batteries that you've dropped. The
exact formula is in the archives, or someone else can give it to you. Your
performance will go up with higher voltage, assuming that the controller and
the motor can handle it. Or is the Leopard a contactor-type controller?
The charger may be a problem, though. If you buddy-pack the 8-volters, you
will get increased range, and the charger and motor can handle it better;
but performance won't improve much.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Twelve 8v batterys in a leopard
>
>
>
> My name is Jack Waddell and I'm new to the EV list. I'm getting ready to
decide on which battery to install in my 1980 leopard. I had a chance to
drive a stock 80 leopard last fall and I thought it drove and handled like a
slug. My round trip work distance can be anywhere from 3 to 12 miles.
Charging is available at most stops I remember reading on the list some
time ago about different battery choices when it come to outfitting a
leopard. I thought that if I used 12 / 8 v batteries, it would decrease my
weight, give me a 50/50 F/R weight ratio, and they would give me the choice
of 48 or 96 volts with a controller. I know I would gain a little in
acceleration and top speed but how much would I loose in range? What are the
advantages between 48 and 96 volts in this kind of application? I figure
in any case that I could still use the same charger if I buy flooded s. This
car has 74 mi total and sat for 20 years. Its all original except
batteries. I pulled the moto!
> r out in January and had it rebuilt because I took it on a 10 mi drive
last fall with the 8/ 6v batteries from my 80 commutacar and the motor
started to make a noise. All the brush springs were rusted and broken in a
pile on the bottom of the brush cage. The motor is back in and ready for the
next phase. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This list has been a
great help.
>
> Thanks in advance,
Jack Waddell
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
--- End Message ---
