EV Digest 2657
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Heibao
by harsha godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: First and last battery in string?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Economically Justify an EV?
by "Sell, Ken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EBAY finding (17 Group 31 Optimas)
by Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Magnechargers and charging
by Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Heibao EVs seeking distributors
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electric Supra?
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electric Supra?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Heibao
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Heibao
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) E-meter alternative
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Heibao
by Carmen Farruggia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: E-meter alternative
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: E-meter alternative
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Economically Justify an EV?
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Heibao EVs seeking distributors
by "David Li" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Economically Justify an EV?
by "john kangas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Heibao
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: First and last battery in string?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Economically Justify an EV?
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: E-meter alternative
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Heibao
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Electric Supra?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: E-meter alternative
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Electric Supra?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Electric Supra?
by Matthew Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: First and last battery in string?
by Ken Lange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
I just received a message from Steve Dallas. Unfortunately my
browser Netscape 4.7 is choking on it. It immediately shuts down! So I
can't read what Steve has said in it.
Presumably the large size of the message (407KB?) is too much to handle
for my browser. If some kind soul could send it as an attachment, I
might be able open it. I would hate to miss out all that good info.
Sorry Steve...
Regards
Harsha Godavari
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've got a string of 12 Optima YTs and have observed the #1 and #12
> battery to be at about 0.1 volt lower than the others... Is there
> any reason why the batts on the ends of the string would do this?
Possible causes:
1. Tapping the pack; some load connected to just these batteries.
2. These batteries are at the outside corners, and so get better
cooling. Colder batteries have less capacity.
3. Dirty batteries; have leakage paths to ground. The most positive
and/or most negative ones are the farthest from ground, and so
have the highest leakage currents.
4. Just the luck of the draw. Swap batteries and see if the problem
follows the battery, or stays in the endmost locations.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I've wondered why EVs aren't more common place in Europe and Japan
where gas it 2x or 3x more costly. Is gas still just too cheep to
make the electric vehicles a product the average consumer would buy?
Another interesting observation.
I own a Toyota Echo with a 1.5 liter engine and automatic transmission.
The same car is available in Europe and Japan with a 1.3 liter engine.
The Europe/Japan model has about 10% less horse power, accelerates
about 10% lest quickly, and get about 10% more MPG. This would seem to
be a good apples to apples comparison of how consumers will change their
automobile requirements as the price of gas is changed. I'm sure there
are many other considerations to consider, but still this is interesting.
...Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 1:21 PM
To: EV
Subject: Re: Economically Justify an EV?
> One individual talked about a new ICE which costing $20,000 loses 20 percent
> of its value the day you become the owner. He assumed 4 years 50,000 miles
> without any repairs; however, mufflers, tuneups, oil changes and other ICE
> related activities are not part of the warranty. Neither is the higher
> excise tax, sales tax, or insurance cost for a new ICE.
Just playing devils advocate here but...
I paid $14,000 for a new Nissan extended cab pickup. I paid the extra
$800 for the extended warranty. This warranty covers the truck bumper
to bumper for 60,000 miles. Dodge comes standard with 70,000 mile
bumper to bumper warranty as I recall.
My truck comes with free oil changes for life.
I'll have tocheck but I believe the first scheduled tuneup is at 100,000
miles (pretty common these days.)
EVs are more expensive to insure than ICEs, at least around here they
are. I can get liability insurance on three ICE vehicles here for what
I pay for my EV.
Sales tax is sales tax. I have to pay it on used vehicles and on EV
parts if I buy them locally.
>
> Although we state that you cannot economically justify an EV, you can break
> even or in some cases make money. We have helped a number of people convert
> their S-10 or other vehicle (used). The initial cost of these used vehicles
> were $1000 - $4000. Our conversion package for trucks with everything is
> less than $10,000. Most only spend about $6000 - $8000. After driving
> their EVs for 2 years, these customers have sold their EV for $10,000 -
> $12,000. So they essentially broke even and had lots of fun!
>
So $11,000 to $14,000 for a used EV or $14,000 for a brand new ICE.
I'll take your word for it that they sold them for $10,000, but I've
never seen one move at that price. They must have got lucky.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found 17 group 31 Optimas on ebay
125.95 "buy it now"
Located in California.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3013378064
I have no relation to seller.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, they're leases. Damn.
He's going to see if he can get any info about where they're leased
from(what dealer) and what happens to them after lease. Say's they're mainly
PR tools, but do get used quite a bit in the summer. Sure would be nice to
be in California or Florida where it's summer year round!
Of course I'll be retiring soon and it's a requirement for NY retirees to
move to Florida so I guess it's not an issue.<grin><joke, possible inside
joke between NY and FL residents only>
Stay Charged!
Hump
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 4:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
Can you have him verify that? My understanding is that these were only
leased by Toyota and, once the lease is over, they have to go back to
Toyota.
Some of the early RAV4s used a Japanese conductive charger. I read that at
least one of the places in California with them made an avcon converter and
they work fine. I would rather have one of those than the SPI, but wouldn't
be picky.
I'm hoping that since Toyota did sell some of the later versions, they might
decide to sell the ones coming off lease. Not holding my breath, though.
Have given up and am planning a conversion.
Dave
>From: Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:07:49 -0000
>
>No Rav 4 EV's "Yet". I have a co-worker who also works for the NY Power
>Authority. He has stated that they (his site) have 4 RAV 4's. Sometime
>in the future NYPA will be getting rid of these vehicles at auction.
>They will eventually end up in "our" hands.
>
>Unfortunately, he also stated that of the 4, none of their chargers
>were
>the
>same and they are not interchangeable. (test bed maybe?)
>
>I know that in the past, factory EV's have made it into the hands of
>private
>citizens by way of the NY energy companies' auctions. I just hope I can be
>prepared next time one happens.
>
>
>Stay Charged!
>
>Hump
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:44 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
>
>
>Ed,
>
>Chris lives on the east coast, in Maryland. No public charging here at
>all.
>
> Besides Chris's USE Prism, Charlie Garlow's S-10E is the only other
>inductive charging vehicle I'm aware of in this area and it's also LPI.
>Maybe a few of the surplus LPI's out there could find their way here.
>We were never allowed a RAV4 EV, so no SPIs to contend with either.
>
>With a couple of surplus chargers, Chris and Charlie could make them
>"portable" to carry with them to plug into a 14-50 receptacle.
>
>Dave Davidson
>Laurel, Maryland
>1993 Dodge TEVan
>
> >From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
> >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:25:54 -0800
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:19 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Magnechargers and charging
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, after looking at the political climate, the hopelessness of
> >waiting
> > > for "someone" to do "something", I'm beginning to wonder what *I*
> > > can do about all this.
> > >
> > > And I had a thought: Right now, about 2,000 EV-1's in CA are being
> > > impounded. What is happening to the MagneChargers that went with
> > > the
> >cars?
> > > Are they being returned? Scrapped? Forgotten?
> > >
> > > I'm planning on installing my MC in the next few weeks in Relay
> > > MD.
> >Along
> > > with a 40amp dryer plug and a 110 volt plug on the driveway. And
> > > doing
> >the
> > > same thing at the parent's house in Towson MD. And possibly a
> > > friend's house in Clarksville MD.
> > >
> > > Any preceident for creating a private charging network somehow? If
> > > we can't count on the Govt to do diddly, perhaps we can start
> > > doing it
> >ourselves...
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> >
> >Chris,
> >
> >That is a good idea, except that most MCs are LPI. When all EV1's
> >are gone, we will have hundreds of LPI that no EV could use!
> >
> >Ed Ang
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[ref
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37405 ]
I do not have a problem with a company starting out using
what is readily available. A company does not have to
have their own domain and spend a lot of money and effort
on that. Just get your site out there and people will
come.
If you will notice the tripod site does not have banners.
So they are paying to turn them off. But even if it was a
free site, if they list the info the potencial buyer
wants to know, it will still work.
The main page states
-how long you have been in business, their assets, and
partners.
David, POST more about your company and its EV product
line. We would like to know
-how many EVs have you produced that are on the road.
Also is says you will bring an EV to Tour de Sol on your
What's new page.
-How many EVs will you bring?
-Are you leveraging off the EVent to give ride-n-drives
or are you entering the race?
I do not think you 'have to' be in the race this year.
Giving ride-n-drives is more important right now to let
the public know what you offer.
Please ask EVworld.com to do a review on your EVs while
at Tour de Sol.
Also contact the EV groups in Toronto the publicity will
help your company:
http://www.econogics.com/ev/evorgs.htm
If any on your marketing team are in doubt, there is a
serious need for highway speed (65 mph), 50 mile range
EVs in the USA. Whether we have to order them from your
web site or a dealer, people want EVs.
I see from your products page
http://evcanada.tripod.com/ev/products.html
that your EVs do that (120kmph * .62 = 74mph).
Please do not bother with the nEV market (sub highway
speed EVs). That market is saturated.
For those that want to know more about Heibao, see
http://www.heibao.com/
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=Heibao+Electric+Car
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Heibao+vehicle
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Heibao+Car
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
"Crabb, David" wrote:
Ahh.. but it is ever so roomy in the cabin for the front occupants.
...
perhaps if , inline, you had motor.. and a planetary reduction gear then
into the rear ..differential
all very compact.
But why remove the gearbox, when it's electronically controllable
and has a lockable torque converter? Might as well use it, and gain
the advantages of gears to help acceleration, and not having to
make custom drivelines. Too much custom driveline stuff is what
makes doing a Mini conversion so difficult, which is why I'm now
thinking of the Supra ( and I know of a good Supra for sale cheap :)
A motor integrated into transaxle (differential) has been
developed and produced for quite a while.
Consider this (stitch the link together)
http://www.siemens.com/Daten/siecom/HQ/TS/Internet/Transportation_Systems/WORKAREA/reinhold/templatedata/English/file/binary/20779re_17_345_20779.pdf
Victor
Holy cow! Have you seen the load rating on that axle?
I don't think I could fit 8 tonnes of batteries into
the Supra, even though it is a big car.... ;-) ;-)
Neat design though. If only it'd fit into a Mini...
The Supra's got the "conventional" front-engine rear-wheel-drive
layout, so it'd be like most pickup truck conversions, with the
motor shaft running front-to-rear.
Hmmm an AC Supra would be cool. But to do it justice, it'd
probably need two systems operating together. Expensive!
( Mk.3 Supra's peak torque is 246 ft-lbs , two 1PV5133 motors
would give 258 ft-lbs torque )
I'm still thinking in terms of twin 8 inch motors, possibly
in parallel, operating from a high-voltage pack, using a baby Zilla.
If I'm gonna do this, I wanna have some FUN !! ;-)
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really doubt one can [legally] make AC inverter AND motor, both
supposedly water cooled, capable of moving normal car ar freeway
speeds, for $2k.
May be they can in China, using child slave labor, but then I wouldn't
want to buy such a car for this reason alone, let aside its quality.
Victor
harsha godavari wrote:
>
> "The cars need to be approved by FMVSS. It is not
> available now. The price for AC motor and Inverter
> is USD2,000.00." quoted from the Canadian Rep.
>
> Regards
> Harsha Godavari
>
> Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> >
> > Not to mention a motor that looks like they got it off e-bay and a inverter
> > that claims to be water cooled but from the pictures obviously isn't? (Not
> > to mention, what truly lame engineer has to water cool a 12kW inverter?)
> >
> > The cars are pretty, though.
> >
> > S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Bebbington wrote:
>
> Hmmm an AC Supra would be cool. But to do it justice, it'd
> probably need two systems operating together. Expensive!
> ( Mk.3 Supra's peak torque is 246 ft-lbs , two 1PV5133 motors
> would give 258 ft-lbs torque )
>
> I'm still thinking in terms of twin 8 inch motors, possibly
> in parallel, operating from a high-voltage pack, using a baby Zilla.
> If I'm gonna do this, I wanna have some FUN !! ;-)
>
You don't realize the power of one 5135 motor. Sheer has one
in his Accord (and yes I have them in stock), but two of these
with appropriate inverter can move an 80 person MAN bus:
http://www.siemens.com/index.jsp?sdc_p=lo20769t4u18mcn20769s3fp&sdc_sid=7360926305&;
I think your Supra isn't as heavy...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't doubt it - they claim it's only 12kw..
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: Heibao
> I really doubt one can [legally] make AC inverter AND motor, both
> supposedly water cooled, capable of moving normal car ar freeway
> speeds, for $2k.
>
> May be they can in China, using child slave labor, but then I wouldn't
> want to buy such a car for this reason alone, let aside its quality.
>
> Victor
>
> harsha godavari wrote:
> >
> > "The cars need to be approved by FMVSS. It is not
> > available now. The price for AC motor and Inverter
> > is USD2,000.00." quoted from the Canadian Rep.
> >
> > Regards
> > Harsha Godavari
> >
> > Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> > >
> > > Not to mention a motor that looks like they got it off e-bay and a
inverter
> > > that claims to be water cooled but from the pictures obviously isn't?
(Not
> > > to mention, what truly lame engineer has to water cool a 12kW
inverter?)
> > >
> > > The cars are pretty, though.
> > >
> > > S.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor,
How much different is this from a standard electric motor, its even ac like
all the rest, are you suggesting that it should cost more than $2000 for a
motor for your fridge ?
I know that not a fair equivalent but really its only an electric motor.
These motors don't cost heaps to make they simply sell for heaps because if
you only sell a few hundred items a year and you still want to be in
business next year you have to charge enough to cover costs per unit for the
year so the price is inflated.
Maybe its just me, but for even this amount of money I could pay an engineer
to make the motor bits and have it hand wound.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I spent 9.1 Ah driving to work this morning. What's the big deal
about it?
Well, I specify the number because just installed brand new
Brusa Ah counter, integrating it into the CRX instrument cluster.
The way Cruising Equipment e-meter looks is totally out of style
the CRX cluster is built with. There is no round instruments
with red LED readout, it is too deep to fit, and there is
no spot (on the dash) you can put it so you can easily observe it.
In contrast, BCM98 counter is just two 5x5 cm PCBs
stacked together with backlit LCD panel and surface mount
components; the rest of the circuitry is directly on the shunt.
I put it in the spot where fuel gauge and engine temp gauge
combination was.
Works as a charm. And, in case one wonders, yes, I do have them
available, basic model I think comparable price with e-meter
(I don't know the cost of e-meter with all its shunts,
isolating dc-dc converters, prescalers and whatever else one
need to make it work).
Few photos:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/18.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/11.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/44.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/25.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/33.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/6.jpg
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Hiebao sells for around $6000 U.S. in China. Or so I hear.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice fit into your dashboard!
On the shunt circuit board under the hood, is it "naked"? From the
picture it isn't conformal coated or anything to protect from moisture
and other abuse of on-road life.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Well, I specify the number because just installed brand new
Brusa Ah counter, integrating it into the CRX instrument cluster.
...
Few photos:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/18.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/11.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/44.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/25.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/33.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/6.jpg
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
>
> Hi Victor,
>
> How much different is this from a standard electric motor, its even ac like
> all the rest, are you suggesting that it should cost more than $2000 for a
> motor for your fridge ?
>
> I know that not a fair equivalent but really its only an electric motor.
If you use a motor for a fridge for your EV, have fun.
I prefer to use an EV motor for EV and fridge motor for a fridge.
> These motors don't cost heaps to make they simply sell for heaps because if
> you only sell a few hundred items a year and you still want to be in
> business next year you have to charge enough to cover costs per unit for the
> year so the price is inflated.
>
I don't know your expertise in the motors, but it seem like you think
that any large enough industrial 60 Hz motor can be an EV motor.
About fridge motor: they're never 3 phase. Even if they were:
At low frequency (RPM) it will burn out because there is no
enough inductance and the stator will hopelessly saturate.
At high frequency (RPM) it will not have any appreciable torque
as inductance is too high to push any significant number of amps
through it.
At few thousand RPM its bearings won't last for long.
It has no sufficient thermal reserve and cooling.
It has no floating bearings to compensate for temperature shaft
expansion.
It has no shaft encoder to feed back to control its speed.
It's magnetic characteristics are not optimized for variable
frequency operation and matched to the inverter driving it.
There is good reason we don't drive fridges on the roads.
Have you ever disassembled an *EV* ac motor?
> Maybe its just me, but for even this amount of money I could pay an engineer
> to make the motor bits and have it hand wound.
And cast the case.
And make the squirrel cage rotor with desired magnetic
And thermal properties.
And make stator laminations.
And make everything water tight if water cooled version used.
And come up with high speed optical or hall effect shaft encoder
sensor.
And make sure it doesn't fly apart at 10,000 RPM.
And design and construct a matching inverter.
And write and debug safe operating software.
ANd you want your engineer to do all this for $2k?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it's naked for now. It's not a permanent location, it's
going to the rear, inside the cabin once I switch to LiIon pack.
For now I indeed should protect it, although there is no moisture
from the road under hood - belly pan protects it very well.
Victor
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> Nice fit into your dashboard!
>
> On the shunt circuit board under the hood, is it "naked"? From the
> picture it isn't conformal coated or anything to protect from moisture
> and other abuse of on-road life.
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Well, I specify the number because just installed brand new
> > Brusa Ah counter, integrating it into the CRX instrument cluster.
> > ...
> >
> > Few photos:
> >
> > http://www.metricmind.com/misc/18.jpg
> > http://www.metricmind.com/misc/11.jpg
> > http://www.metricmind.com/misc/44.jpg
> > http://www.metricmind.com/misc/25.jpg
> > http://www.metricmind.com/misc/33.jpg
> > http://www.metricmind.com/misc/6.jpg
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well...
There was an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal talking about
this today. The basic problem is simple: There is too damn much oil in the
world. Most of it though is in the Middle East.
The Saudis can make a profit on oil if it sells for $5.00 a barrel. And they
can pump a *lot* of it for a long time at that price. This actually happened
in the 80's; cars got a *lot* more efficient, we were working on shale oil,
and the Saudis & Kuwait saw the threat. So they dropped prices to
rock-bottom levels. Remember the oil fields in Texas and LA going dry? Cost
too much to pump the local oil, which caused economies in a number of our
states to collapse. Bush Sr. actually asked them to cut back on production
(so much for the "free market")
In that environment, even EV's can't stand up. And big gas guzzlers look to
be ok again. This explains neatly the resurgance of the land yacht (SUV now;
I remember the 427PI engine in my dad's station wagon) and the burial of the
solar market.
What to do? Hm. Complex question. It may be possible to justify an EV with
gas at 2 bucks a gallon, but how about if it was back to a dollar? $.50c?
Interesting problem; you get a technology that can compete with gas, and it
gets wiped out if the oil prices go to where they really *can* go ($4-$5.00
a barrel). Then your other sources get wiped out, then the prices really
soar...
Myself? I'm sick of this baloney and I remember all too well the 73 gas
lines. I will not be held like that; forget it. It is not the most cost
effective choice, but to me it's the right choice.
Waiting for my new pack :-)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Bruce,
Thanks for your good comments.
We will send 2 electric cars to Toronto on April for demonstration and
testing. At least one is going to Tour de Sol. We will be in the race this
time to demonstrate it.
Heibao has started to produce this electric cars for the Chinese market.
Until now more than 200 units were produced.
We know we can't export these EVs to North America because we didn't get
FMVSS approved. That is why we sincerely want to work with American
entrepreneurs to go through the regulations.
We think Heibao AC motor and Inverter are advanced reliable and mature
products, they are good for the conversion market. We have shipped 2 sets to
Toronto Electric (www.torontoelectric.com), they will independtly test AC
motor and Inverter before end of this month. At the same time, they are
converting a 1991 Toyota Tercel with Heibao AC motor and Inverter. We will
see how the AC motor and Inverter work.
Best Regards,
David Li
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Heibao EVs seeking distributors
> [ref
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37405 ]
>
> I do not have a problem with a company starting out using
> what is readily available. A company does not have to
> have their own domain and spend a lot of money and effort
> on that. Just get your site out there and people will
> come.
>
> If you will notice the tripod site does not have banners.
> So they are paying to turn them off. But even if it was a
> free site, if they list the info the potencial buyer
> wants to know, it will still work.
>
> The main page states
> -how long you have been in business, their assets, and
> partners.
>
> David, POST more about your company and its EV product
> line. We would like to know
> -how many EVs have you produced that are on the road.
>
> Also is says you will bring an EV to Tour de Sol on your
> What's new page.
> -How many EVs will you bring?
> -Are you leveraging off the EVent to give ride-n-drives
> or are you entering the race?
>
> I do not think you 'have to' be in the race this year.
> Giving ride-n-drives is more important right now to let
> the public know what you offer.
>
> Please ask EVworld.com to do a review on your EVs while
> at Tour de Sol.
>
> Also contact the EV groups in Toronto the publicity will
> help your company:
> http://www.econogics.com/ev/evorgs.htm
>
> If any on your marketing team are in doubt, there is a
> serious need for highway speed (65 mph), 50 mile range
> EVs in the USA. Whether we have to order them from your
> web site or a dealer, people want EVs.
>
> I see from your products page
> http://evcanada.tripod.com/ev/products.html
> that your EVs do that (120kmph * .62 = 74mph).
> Please do not bother with the nEV market (sub highway
> speed EVs). That market is saturated.
>
> For those that want to know more about Heibao, see
> http://www.heibao.com/
> http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=Heibao+Electric+Car
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Heibao+vehicle
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Heibao+Car
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or my situation for example:
$500 Ford Festiva. One of the fuel injected models, so it's (almost)
reliable as gravity. 38mpg, full coverage insurance is $38 a month. If
something does need repair, parts are dirt cheap and I'm my own mechanic.
All things considered, it still costs around $100 a month over the life of
the car. It doesn't get any cheaper than that. And that's still a lot of
money, if this was about saving money, more folks would use public
transportation.
John
Just playing devils advocate here but...
I paid $14,000 for a new Nissan extended cab pickup. I paid the extra
$800 for the extended warranty. This warranty covers the truck bumper
to bumper for 60,000 miles. Dodge comes standard with 70,000 mile
bumper to bumper warranty as I recall.
My truck comes with free oil changes for life.
I'll have tocheck but I believe the first scheduled tuneup is at 100,000
miles (pretty common these days.)
EVs are more expensive to insure than ICEs, at least around here they
are. I can get liability insurance on three ICE vehicles here for what
I pay for my EV.
Sales tax is sales tax. I have to pay it on used vehicles and on EV
parts if I buy them locally.
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote a bunch of stuff about motors and then:
And cast the case.
And make the squirrel cage rotor with desired magnetic
And thermal properties.
And make stator laminations.
And make everything water tight if water cooled version used.
And come up with high speed optical or hall effect shaft encoder
sensor.
And make sure it doesn't fly apart at 10,000 RPM.
And design and construct a matching inverter.
And write and debug safe operating software.
ANd you want your engineer to do all this for $2k?
Boy Victor,
Have you ever taken apart a AC motor?
What were you looking at?
These are all pretty simple issues. The only tough one is keeping
bearings together at 14,000 RPM. Let's not make this sound like a
bunch of unobtanium mumbo jumbo.
I have taken apart EV motors, I have two EV-1 motors sitting here.
The thing that is remarkable about them is just that they are not remarkable.
There is nothing about these that would make them cost over $1000
(retail) if they were made 10,000 pieces a year. And these are 137hp,
150 Nm, peak motors which weigh about 80 lbs without the gear
reduction (150 lbs with).
I've worked with a few motor manufacturers in my time. What is
encouraging to me about AC drive is that someday, when we have the
volumes, they won't have to be expensive.
I agree that the engineering, tooling and setup is what makes them so
expensive.
If some company is willing to absorb the cost of tooling and
development, as well as invest in a large quantity of stock, the
price suddenly becomes reasonable. Yes, I know, It's a big If. :-)
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there any reason why the batts on the ends of the string would do this?
The end batteries have a "cooling fin" in the form of the cable
leading off to the controller. The cable is a very effective heat exchanger
to the surrounding environment. Thus, the end batteries run much closer to
the ambient temperature than the rest of the pack. This alters:
1) Self discharge
2) Charge efficiency
3) Open-circuit voltage
4) Cycle life
Because the temperature is different, the end batteries always
behave differently than the rest of the pack.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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This is perhaps old news (May 24, 2002), but may be a factor in ICE vs.
EVs?
[quotes]
WASHINGTON - The vast majority of the 29 million gallons of petroleum
that flow into U.S. coastal waters each year comes from polluted
rivers, small boats and jet skis, and can't be blamed on
well-publicized oil spills, a report from the National Academy of
Sciences said yesterday.
Nearly 85 percent of the 29 million gallons of oil comes from
land-based water runoff, polluted rivers, airplanes, small boats and
jet skis.
"Oil slicks visible from the air and birds painted black by oil get the
most public attention, but it is consumers of oil - not the ships that
transport it - who are responsible for most of what finds its way into
the ocean," the report said.
[end of quotes]
`Course, to the extent that oil users don't "pay" for these "costs",
then they're not a cost of ICE ownership... I would hope that central
power generation, even using oil, would have less problems with leaking
crank cases and backyard oil changes, hot exhausts condensing on cold
pavements then running off in rains, etc.
Lock
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do these cost?
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
I just received a message from Steve Dallas. Unfortunately my
browser Netscape 4.7 is choking on it. It immediately shuts down! So I
can't read what Steve has said in it.
Presumably the large size of the message (407KB?) is too much to handle
for my browser. If some kind soul could send it as an attachment, I
might be able open it. I would hate to miss out all that good info.
Sorry Steve...
Regards
Harsha Godavari
That is probably a virus or spam. Steve Dallas was a character in the
comic strip "Bloom County". Appropriately enough, he was a slimy
lawyer.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, you don't realize how little power a bus uses. Less than my old car.
16 ton school bus, 185 hp, 1.6 ton SAAB, 225 hp. The difference is peak
versus continuous needs, but it is interesting that the power to weight
ratio on a sporty car is more that 10 times higher than a bus.
Seth
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Richard Bebbington wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm an AC Supra would be cool. But to do it justice, it'd
> > probably need two systems operating together. Expensive!
> > ( Mk.3 Supra's peak torque is 246 ft-lbs , two 1PV5133 motors
> > would give 258 ft-lbs torque )
> >
> > I'm still thinking in terms of twin 8 inch motors, possibly
> > in parallel, operating from a high-voltage pack, using a baby Zilla.
> > If I'm gonna do this, I wanna have some FUN !! ;-)
> >
> You don't realize the power of one 5135 motor. Sheer has one
> in his Accord (and yes I have them in stock), but two of these
> with appropriate inverter can move an 80 person MAN bus:
>
> http://www.siemens.com/index.jsp?sdc_p=lo20769t4u18mcn20769s3fp&sdc_sid=7360926305&;
>
> I think your Supra isn't as heavy...
>
> Victor
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> Let's not make this sound like a bunch of unobtanium mumbo jumbo.
Otmar, I never said they are unobtanium; few sources exist.
I'd say your two EV1 motors are rather unobtanium :-)
I just replied to the statement that these are similar to the fridge
motors and highlighted where the differences are; I never said these
differences have to be expensive. And, what OEM charges for them is
value to you, not just their production cost + some profit.
My point was that paying $2k to an engineer to rewind a
fridge motor and make EV motor (as was suggested in the email)
is not serious at least.
> I have taken apart EV motors, I have two EV-1 motors sitting here.
> The thing that is remarkable about them is just that they are not remarkable.
> There is nothing about these that would make them cost over $1000
> (retail) if they were made 10,000 pieces a year.
You're talking as production man. Sure, one can cost
$300 if 10 million is produced.
To develop one cost a lot of engineering time; and the guy
suggested that no need - just rewind fridge (or dishwasher or
whatever) motor.
I don't have to write more - I'm sure you understand
what I'm saying.
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Without housing and direct display on shunt (as on my photos):
BCM 120 - $338,
BCM 220 - $468,
BCM 420 - $645.
The differences are here:
http://www.metricmind.com/line_art/counter_options.gif
The prices are adjusted often these days, approx. following
Dollar value vs. Euro, and may go up as well as down.
So, don't be surprised when you order, these today's prices
are for reference only.
Victor
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> What do these cost?
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In short, one 5135 will be plenty for Supra, unless you want it
on the race track. 5135 is used for full size OEM Mercedes as far
as I know.
Victor
Seth wrote:
>
> No, you don't realize how little power a bus uses. Less than my old car.
> 16 ton school bus, 185 hp, 1.6 ton SAAB, 225 hp. The difference is peak
> versus continuous needs, but it is interesting that the power to weight
> ratio on a sporty car is more that 10 times higher than a bus.
>
> Seth
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Richard Bebbington wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm an AC Supra would be cool. But to do it justice, it'd
> > > probably need two systems operating together. Expensive!
> > > ( Mk.3 Supra's peak torque is 246 ft-lbs , two 1PV5133 motors
> > > would give 258 ft-lbs torque )
> > >
> > > I'm still thinking in terms of twin 8 inch motors, possibly
> > > in parallel, operating from a high-voltage pack, using a baby Zilla.
> > > If I'm gonna do this, I wanna have some FUN !! ;-)
> > >
> > You don't realize the power of one 5135 motor. Sheer has one
> > in his Accord (and yes I have them in stock), but two of these
> > with appropriate inverter can move an 80 person MAN bus:
> >
> > http://www.siemens.com/index.jsp?sdc_p=lo20769t4u18mcn20769s3fp&sdc_sid=7360926305&;
> >
> > I think your Supra isn't as heavy...
> >
> > Victor
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, I give props to your AC drives, but this is a Supra we're
talking about. Of course its got to hold its own on the race track!
DC is totally the way to go for raw power.
BTW Richard, I say go for it! A converted dual-motor Supra would be
totally awesome! Make it a super clean, OEM type conversion (Wayland
style) and give it a kickin' sound system and a flashy paint job to
boot!
And when its done, let me take it for a spin! :-)
Matt
On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 09:37 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
In short, one 5135 will be plenty for Supra, unless you want it
on the race track. 5135 is used for full size OEM Mercedes as far
as I know.
Victor
--
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Apple Dual 1GHz PowerMac G4
Apple iBook 12.1" 800MHz
Kyocera 7135 Smartphone on Verizon
Custom Audio Adapters! Use standard stereo headphones on your 7135!
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--- End Message ---
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I'm interested in the answer to your situation.
Seems like I've heard of similar observations.
Have you tried swapping the end batteries with
other ones to see if it's just a coincidence, or
if it follows the battery position?
Regards,
Ken
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