EV Digest 2658
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Heibao
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) What to do with the kids on those long drives...
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Heibao
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Sites
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Motor Commutator repairs in Portland?
by John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What to do with the kids on those long drives...
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Today our EVs can really make a statement
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Heibao
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Heibao
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Segway is the answer (what was the question?)
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Heibao
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Magnechargers and charging
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: emi affetcs brains
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Electric Supra?
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Heibao
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Heibao
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) 2003 Tour de Sol Reports begin shortly ...
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) OPPD Power Drive
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: emi affetcs brains
by "fyrehawk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re. emi affects brains
by "veena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Heibao
by "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: CalCars - A non-profit way to get EV's rolling
by Lin Tse Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley asked:
> How much different is this from a standard electric motor?
You are right; the AC motors used in the auto company EVs are
*basically* ordinary industrial 240-volt 3-phase 60-Hz AC induction
motors. Here in the USA, similar motors sell for several hundred dollars
at any electrical supply company.
But... the motors used in these limited production factory EVs have been
drastically modified to the point where they are almost unrecognizable.
They bear the same resemblance to the cheap industrial version that an
all-out professional racing engine does to the engine under the hood of
your family car.
They have modified virtually every single part of it to improve
performance and efficiency. The resulting motor costs 10 times more, but
produces twice the horsepower per pound and has half the losses (90%
efficient instead of 80% efficient).
Here are some of the changes:
- better bearings, so they can spin it 2-3 times faster
- better balancing, to survive higher rpm
- better insulation, so they can run it hotter without it failing
- improved cooling (usually liquid cooled) so they can run it at
higher peak power levels without damage
- limited slip rotor, so it won't overheat at low speeds or stall
and to improve efficiency
- thinner laminations, to reduce high frequency losses
- special shafts and mountings, to more easily connect to typical
automotive drive systems
Is it worth it? They thought so. Is is necessary? Probably not. If they
ever do mass produce EVs, they will probably supply them with cheap
industrial version AC motors, just as they don't put racing engines in
family sedans. The resulting EV might accellerate half as fast and have
10% less range, but would be far cheaper to produce. It's a cost-driven
business.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The electronic tow-bar (EV's, of course). Note the driver in the
following car:
http://www.lara.prd.fr/videos/Tow-bar.mpg
Lock
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I just replied to the statement that these are similar to the fridge
> motors and highlighted where the differences are; I never said these
> differences have to be expensive. And, what OEM charges for them is
> value to you, not just their production cost + some profit.
Hmm... Victor, will you excuse me if I play devil's advocate for a
moment?
A refrigerator motor is actually the closest thing to an EV1 motor that
you'll find in a consumer product. They are:
- always 2-phase or 3-phase (never single-phase)
- are liquid-cooled (by the freon)
- have very high starting torque (needed to start stalled compressors)
- have a high power-to-weight ratio (allowed by the liquid cooling)
- have high efficiency (because they run a lot, and there are federal
efficiency standards)
- expected to operate for their entire life (many years) with zero
maintenance or repair
- and, they have to be affordable enough for the consumer market
Some recent models have inverters, and run their motor at variable
speeds for better efficiency; they are probably the first product a
consumer will have with a variable speed inverter motor drive.
There are some large commercial refrigerators, that *do* have motors and
inverters of a size that would be workable in an EV.
So, looking at a refrigerator motor (and inverter) will probably give
you a pretty good idea what a mass-produced consumer-grade
variable-speed AC drive will look like.
I'm not saying you could put your home refrigerator motor in your EV --
you'd need a couple dozen of them to produce enough horsepower. But the
basic style and construction of motor is actually pretty close.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This looks like a nice car and with 1/2 the weight in batteries i would
think it would be a real proformer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Li" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: EV Sites
> Hi,guys,
> I represent a Chinese EV manufacturer,Heibao, we are looking for partners
in
> USA to market our new electric cars. Pls see the temporary website:
> http://evcanada.tripod.com
> Thanks,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carmen Farruggia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:05 AM
> Subject: EV Sites
>
>
> >
> > Hi, I am new to this list and new to EV research. Bruce posted
recently
> > about bogus sites. I have seen many of them. Many of them either are
> or
> > appear to be from our government. Too many of them are very out of
date.
> > I know that this question has probably been asked but why has CARB
droped
> > its ZEV mandates? I've asked them but they have not responded.
> > As I was looking for different EV's for sale I noticed that all of the
> major
> > and some minor auto makers have canned the EV so fast you can hear the
> hubs
> > spinning.
> >
> > That's it for now.
> >
> > Carmen still looking for EV's in Sacramento
> >
> >
> > Say, anyone have thoughts on t the small but may have potential Reva. I
> > hear they are working on a LHD for us here in the states. Only $6000
> >
> > Also the Think???
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Part of Bruces post:
> > Anyone trying to buy a new EV will find this site and get
> > frustrated. Where's the EVs!?!
> >
> > Toyota released their www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/prius/
> > site to the search engines so that it can be found when
> > looking for Electric Vehicle. hybrids are not EVs.
> >
> > And don't you love the domain squatters that hold domain
> > names for ransom? www.myev.info
> >
> > More sites to fall into can be seen at:
> > http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22electric+vehicle%22+information
> >
> > If you know of some, please POST the urls so we can see
> > them.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
I didn't notice the driver in the rear car, but I did notice the front car
did not have any brake lights.
Any idea why both cars had the left side rear window covered?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:08 PM
Subject: What to do with the kids on those long drives...
> The electronic tow-bar (EV's, of course). Note the driver in the
> following car:
>
> http://www.lara.prd.fr/videos/Tow-bar.mpg
>
> Lock
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Without going too politico, this is a time, especially today, when our EVs
can really make a statement.
And this past weekend I think the Escort EV made a small statement without
really intending to.
Sunday afternoon my daughter and I went to play tennis so we drove up to the
community center to play a few games. There was a young family at the
playground next to the tennis courts and they were getting ready to leave.
Just as I was about to serve I noticed the father really checking out the
EV. First he walked past, then came back and started looking inside then got
on the ground and looked underneath. He motioned his wife to come over and
she started checking the car out too.
At this point my daughter started yelling at me, "Dad, hit the ball!" So I
got back into our game.
The family loaded up their Ford Excursion and left.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC Race Coordinator/Webmaster
http://www.powerofdc.com
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
144-volt Ford Escort
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor,
I did say in the sentence after that, that I was aware that this was not a
good choice for a comparison, but the point was that you wouldn't expect to
pay $200 for a fridge motor.
What is so different about an ev motor that makes $2000 cheap for one ?
I didn't allow for bearings and probably a few other things that are
different but there are only 2 bearings so if standard ones are $10 and
these are $20 its still a long way to $2000.
The engineering of these things hasn't changed for 100 years what R & D is
there to cover, surely you look up the formula and make you motor
accordingly.
Again I know it doesn't happen like this in the real world but I will let
you know how hard it really is when I have a go myself.
While im here is there anyone actually building or repairing motors here.
I have some questions about how they all hang together and work if there is
someone with this sort of knowledge.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee-
If you buy a "premium efficiency" "inverter spike reisitant" (or other
buzzword inserted) then you pay a bit more, but you can usualy get
decent magnetic and thermal properties. You still have to deal with the
issue of balancing and bearings and stator winding. These are things
that a good motor shop can help with if you know what your inverter and
your motor needs are. And that last bit is the hard part.
But motors designed to run more efficiently off an IGBT inverter at
0-400Hz are pretty common.
Seth
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Garry Stanley asked:
> > How much different is this from a standard electric motor?
>
> You are right; the AC motors used in the auto company EVs are
> *basically* ordinary industrial 240-volt 3-phase 60-Hz AC induction
> motors. Here in the USA, similar motors sell for several hundred dollars
> at any electrical supply company.
>
> But... the motors used in these limited production factory EVs have been
> drastically modified to the point where they are almost unrecognizable.
> They bear the same resemblance to the cheap industrial version that an
> all-out professional racing engine does to the engine under the hood of
> your family car.
>
> They have modified virtually every single part of it to improve
> performance and efficiency. The resulting motor costs 10 times more, but
> produces twice the horsepower per pound and has half the losses (90%
> efficient instead of 80% efficient).
>
> Here are some of the changes:
>
> - better bearings, so they can spin it 2-3 times faster
> - better balancing, to survive higher rpm
> - better insulation, so they can run it hotter without it failing
> - improved cooling (usually liquid cooled) so they can run it at
> higher peak power levels without damage
> - limited slip rotor, so it won't overheat at low speeds or stall
> and to improve efficiency
> - thinner laminations, to reduce high frequency losses
> - special shafts and mountings, to more easily connect to typical
> automotive drive systems
>
> Is it worth it? They thought so. Is is necessary? Probably not. If they
> ever do mass produce EVs, they will probably supply them with cheap
> industrial version AC motors, just as they don't put racing engines in
> family sedans. The resulting EV might accellerate half as fast and have
> 10% less range, but would be far cheaper to produce. It's a cost-driven
> business.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh that's good.
Wonder how many people got the Dr. Who reference!!
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Time cannot be influenced by mankind. It gives each of us a beginning an and
end. And this makes us question the significance of what comes between. But
if you can create something that time cannot erode, something which ignores
the eccentricities of a particular era or moments - something truley
timeless - this is the ultimate victory.-- Anon.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 4:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Segway is the answer (what was the question?)
The Segway should only be ridden with a CO2 fire extinguisher in one hand, a
sink plunger in the other, and a pair of orange flashing lights on your
head.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Garry;
I think the point that is being missed is the "fact" that the motor isn't
the expensive part of the AC Drive - the invertor is. In fact the invertor
isn't the expensive part of the invertor, the software is. But, once
software is debugged it can be copied for almost nothing.
CAUTION: Most of the following figures have not been researched and are only
figuratively presented.
Lets say your the motors are standard industrial motors.
Heibao says it's 12kw, Grainger's has a 15hp 3 phase motor for $522.50.
That leaves $1476.50 for the invertor. A 12kw capable Curtis DC controller
is what? $400.00?
So we have 1076.50 for the software engineering. Software is free to copy
once it's written, so if they plan on selling only 1000 units that means
over a million dollars for the software engineering.
Now lets look at it in American Businessmans eyes.
The motors are for one 522.50
The invertor is for one 400.00
The software is for one 1,076,500.00
It cost us 1,200,000.00 (and thats not including the buildings, lawyers, PR
men and other "necessary" overhead), to design this thing. There is no
market for EV Motors. If we are lucky we will sell 100 of them so they
better be...$12,000.00 each.
And remember this is only a 12kw set-up.
Graingers 56kw motors are listed at $2298.00 and the price of that much
silicon for the controller just went waaay up. But Otmars' Z2K is way over
that power level and still comes in well under the $9,000.00 left over from
the 12k price.
So yes, $2000.00 is believable, at that power level. Think AC golf carts and
Forklifts. 75 mph in a 2000 lb aerodynamic car? Sure, but it will accelerate
like a bus.
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: garry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:14 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Heibao
>
>
> Hi Victor,
>
> I did say in the sentence after that, that I was aware that
> this was not a
> good choice for a comparison, but the point was that you
> wouldn't expect to
> pay $200 for a fridge motor.
> What is so different about an ev motor that makes $2000 cheap
> for one ?
>
> I didn't allow for bearings and probably a few other things that are
> different but there are only 2 bearings so if standard ones
> are $10 and
> these are $20 its still a long way to $2000.
>
> The engineering of these things hasn't changed for 100 years
> what R & D is
> there to cover, surely you look up the formula and make you motor
> accordingly.
>
> Again I know it doesn't happen like this in the real world
> but I will let
> you know how hard it really is when I have a go myself.
>
> While im here is there anyone actually building or repairing
> motors here.
>
> I have some questions about how they all hang together and
> work if there is
> someone with this sort of knowledge.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After spending over four years learning all I can about EVs and
(oh-so-slowly) building my LeSled, I'm finally getting to the point
where I'm doing real EV-like stuff to it. So far it's been planning and
sheetmetal work to fit 10 US145s under the hood. (This is no small
task, and I've only been able to work on it at a rate of about one hour
per week. Having to work for a living really bites.)
Anyway, my (ahem) EV worldliness is now of little use. I'm getting into
the nitty gritty of making one actually work. The concern du jour came
up while laying out my wiring. This is the first of probably many
stupid questions from the resident electrical idiot.
I'll be using a PFC-20 charger, in part because I really like the wide
range of input voltages. I also want a charger interlock relay to break
the circuit to my contactors while charging. (For the newbies, this is
so you can't drive off while you're still plugged into the wall.) Is
there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage? I'll
assume you can't use a relay with a 240V coil and expect it to work on
120V. Alternatively, is there a simple circuit you could put ahead of
the relay coil that would give it a consistent voltage regardless of
what the plug sees? This might also be used to power fans, heaters,
etc. while plugged in. Is the easy way out of this to use a universal
input power supply for these devices?
I've thought about using a switch on the charging port door instead of a
line-sensing relay to achieve this interlock function. The problem is
that the Renault LeCar doesn't have a door over the former gas filler,
just a flush screw-on cap. Making a charging port with a proper door
would be a Big Job.
Maybe the best solution would be a charger interlock built into the
PFC-20. I didn't see any mention of one in the installation
instructions. Rich, how hard would this be to add?
How do people handle a charger interlock with variable line voltages?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As you know everbody in florida is from NY or NJ , If you don't have an EV
by the time you get here we'll build one together.
Steve Clunn
>
> Of course I'll be retiring soon and it's a requirement for NY retirees to
> move to Florida so I guess it's not an issue.<grin><joke, possible inside
> joke between NY and FL residents only>
>
> Stay Charged!
>
> Hump
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 4:33 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
>
>
> Can you have him verify that? My understanding is that these were only
> leased by Toyota and, once the lease is over, they have to go back to
> Toyota.
>
> Some of the early RAV4s used a Japanese conductive charger. I read that
at
> least one of the places in California with them made an avcon converter
and
> they work fine. I would rather have one of those than the SPI, but
wouldn't
>
> be picky.
>
> I'm hoping that since Toyota did sell some of the later versions, they
might
>
> decide to sell the ones coming off lease. Not holding my breath, though.
>
> Have given up and am planning a conversion.
>
> Dave
>
>
> >From: Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
> >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:07:49 -0000
> >
> >No Rav 4 EV's "Yet". I have a co-worker who also works for the NY Power
> >Authority. He has stated that they (his site) have 4 RAV 4's. Sometime
> >in the future NYPA will be getting rid of these vehicles at auction.
> >They will eventually end up in "our" hands.
> >
> >Unfortunately, he also stated that of the 4, none of their chargers
> >were
> >the
> >same and they are not interchangeable. (test bed maybe?)
> >
> >I know that in the past, factory EV's have made it into the hands of
> >private
> >citizens by way of the NY energy companies' auctions. I just hope I can
be
> >prepared next time one happens.
> >
> >
> >Stay Charged!
> >
> >Hump
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Dave Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:44 PM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
> >
> >
> >Ed,
> >
> >Chris lives on the east coast, in Maryland. No public charging here at
> >all.
> >
> > Besides Chris's USE Prism, Charlie Garlow's S-10E is the only other
> >inductive charging vehicle I'm aware of in this area and it's also LPI.
> >Maybe a few of the surplus LPI's out there could find their way here.
> >We were never allowed a RAV4 EV, so no SPIs to contend with either.
> >
> >With a couple of surplus chargers, Chris and Charlie could make them
> >"portable" to carry with them to plug into a 14-50 receptacle.
> >
> >Dave Davidson
> >Laurel, Maryland
> >1993 Dodge TEVan
> >
> > >From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: RE: Magnechargers and charging
> > >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:25:54 -0800
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:19 AM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Magnechargers and charging
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, after looking at the political climate, the hopelessness of
> > >waiting
> > > > for "someone" to do "something", I'm beginning to wonder what *I*
> > > > can do about all this.
> > > >
> > > > And I had a thought: Right now, about 2,000 EV-1's in CA are being
> > > > impounded. What is happening to the MagneChargers that went with
> > > > the
> > >cars?
> > > > Are they being returned? Scrapped? Forgotten?
> > > >
> > > > I'm planning on installing my MC in the next few weeks in Relay
> > > > MD.
> > >Along
> > > > with a 40amp dryer plug and a 110 volt plug on the driveway. And
> > > > doing
> > >the
> > > > same thing at the parent's house in Towson MD. And possibly a
> > > > friend's house in Clarksville MD.
> > > >
> > > > Any preceident for creating a private charging network somehow? If
> > > > we can't count on the Govt to do diddly, perhaps we can start
> > > > doing it
> > >ourselves...
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > >
> > >Chris,
> > >
> > >That is a good idea, except that most MCs are LPI. When all EV1's
> > >are gone, we will have hundreds of LPI that no EV could use!
> > >
> > >Ed Ang
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Originally a beetle, then a Commuta-Car 60V, then an Electro-Metro, 112V and
now my Geo Tracker 112V dc. The power cables are ty-rapped together to
cancell RF fields on the right underside, control wires on the left
underside. The controller is mounted as close as possible to the motor and I
can even listen to the AM radio but usually listen to NPR.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: emi affetcs brains
> At 08:35 AM 3/18/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >I bought an emi meter "TriField" and found that in my EV that I am 500
times
> >the maximum allowable emi range. I've been driving EV's for 30 years and
it
> >hasn't effected me a bit, although my wife might disagree.
>
> What is your EV? AC or DC? Volts?
>
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone
831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Less to break. less weight. less space.
I only thought of it since, being an IRS, the motor would take less of a
pounding than if it was hooked up
to a live axle. But then that is as assumption, there may be no detriment
to it.
Not really much in the way of drivehaft.. etc ..less mass to move around and
rotate..and you transfer a little weight to the back to offset extra weight
in the front<batteries>. Of course you could just have some batteries in
the back.. but then you have issue from some of the batteries being cold
outside and others are warm inside.. etc. <at least i believe this is an
issue>
not trying to say one way is better than another..
but I agree it should certainly be easier just to plug it into the
transmission
While you could run it with the lockup.. doesn't that just pull more amps,
because instead of running
at 5000 rpm, you are now running at 1,500 rpm. So i think you would
basically just max it out in second?
can you engage the lockup at any gear?
I was just thinking of the simplest possible..parts wise.. which I think
would be to mate it to the read diff.
adding a single reduction allows you to try to get the most efficient rpm
for your cruising. Of course, this is at the expense of acceleration.. I
was thinking with all that nice engine bay<and trans tunnel> available for
batteries, you could hook up a nice fat motor to make it nice and torquey.
just tossing thoughts.. I certainly wouldn't take any of my statements as
the 'way to go'
Suce a nice transmission would probably fetch a good price.. maybe pay for
the motor?
If the motor can be fixed simply, then that would fetch a good proce too.
supra motors are 4500 for new around here.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Bebbington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:18 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Electric Supra?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> > "Crabb, David" wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Ahh.. but it is ever so roomy in the cabin for the front occupants.
> >
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >> perhaps if , inline, you had motor.. and a planetary
> reduction gear then
> >> into the rear ..differential
> >>
> >> all very compact.
>
> But why remove the gearbox, when it's electronically controllable
> and has a lockable torque converter? Might as well use it, and gain
> the advantages of gears to help acceleration, and not having to
> make custom drivelines. Too much custom driveline stuff is what
> makes doing a Mini conversion so difficult, which is why I'm now
> thinking of the Supra ( and I know of a good Supra for sale cheap :)
>
> >
> >
> > A motor integrated into transaxle (differential) has been
> > developed and produced for quite a while.
> >
> > Consider this (stitch the link together)
> >
> >
> http://www.siemens.com/Daten/siecom/HQ/TS/Internet/Transportat
ion_Systems/WORKAREA/reinhold/templatedata/English/file/binary/20779re_17_34
5_20779.pdf
>
>
> Victor
Holy cow! Have you seen the load rating on that axle?
I don't think I could fit 8 tonnes of batteries into
the Supra, even though it is a big car.... ;-) ;-)
Neat design though. If only it'd fit into a Mini...
The Supra's got the "conventional" front-engine rear-wheel-drive
layout, so it'd be like most pickup truck conversions, with the
motor shaft running front-to-rear.
Hmmm an AC Supra would be cool. But to do it justice, it'd
probably need two systems operating together. Expensive!
( Mk.3 Supra's peak torque is 246 ft-lbs , two 1PV5133 motors
would give 258 ft-lbs torque )
I'm still thinking in terms of twin 8 inch motors, possibly
in parallel, operating from a high-voltage pack, using a baby Zilla.
If I'm gonna do this, I wanna have some FUN !! ;-)
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> Lee-
>
> If you buy a "premium efficiency" "inverter spike reisitant" (or other
> buzzword inserted) then you pay a bit more, but you can usualy get
> decent magnetic and thermal properties. You still have to deal with the
> issue of balancing and bearings and stator winding. These are things
> that a good motor shop can help with if you know what your inverter and
> your motor needs are. And that last bit is the hard part.
>
> But motors designed to run more efficiently off an IGBT inverter at
> 0-400Hz are pretty common.
Yes, I agree completely. Such motors cost more, but industrial customers
are willing to pay it.
Another nice thing about industrial motors and inverters: They have not
"married" the motor and inverter so they can only be used as a matched
pair. They usually have complete specs on the motor, and you can program
the inverter to work with many different motors.
The automotive AC drives are being built like most automotive parts --
highly specialized, to work only with THEIR systems. This drastically
limits your choice of motors. It also means that if either the motor or
inverter dies, you will have to replace BOTH of them (because the
original one won't be available any more).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Humphrey, Timothy wrote:
> I think the point that is being missed is the "fact" that the motor
> isn't the expensive part of the AC Drive - the inverter is. In fact
> the inverter isn't the expensive part of the invertor, the software
> is. But, once software is debugged it can be copied for almost nothing.
Minor point; you don't need software to build an AC motor drive. The fan
in your computer is an AC motor drive with no computer or software.
Software and computers are today's fashionable solution, but we've had
AC inverter motor drives for 50+years, since the days of vacuum tubes.
The power devices are what dominate the price.
> Software is free to copy once it's written, so if they plan on
> selling only 1000 units that means over a million dollars for the
> software engineering.
"Software" could be more generally stated as the time it takes to design
and perfect the first one. If there is no computer, the "software" is
the circuit diagrams, parts list, assembly instructions, and other
paperwork that had to be figured out and documented so you could build
more of them.
> It costs $1,200,000.00 (not including the buildings, lawyers, PR men
> and other "necessary" overhead) to design this thing. There is no
> market for EV Motors. If we are lucky we will sell 100 of them so
> they better be...$12,000.00 each.
Yup! That's how they think. If the customers don't already exist TODAY
so they can get their entire investment back THIS QUARTER, then they
won't do it.
The companies that will win are the ones that take the long view. They
will ask, "How many could we sell over the next 10-20 years? A million?
Then we will design it to be produced by the millions. We'll lose money
the first few years, but then make a big profit after that."
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: 2003 Tour de Sol Reports begin shortly ...
Hi! Another year has passed and I am getting ready to crank up the
2003 edition of the Tour de Sol Reports. You are on my list from last
year (e-mail address [EMAIL PROTECTED] ).
If you wish to be on the direct-feed (these e-mails sent to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ) then you are all set.
If you would like a change, reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
I'll adjust the list as you wish.
Exactly the same text will be available at:
http://www.AutoAud.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports
The official information about the Tour de Sol is at:
http://www.TourdeSol.com
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
190 Loantaka Way
Madison NJ 07940-1910
+1 973 822-2085 Voice and Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Tour de Sol Reports are sponsored again this year by the
AutoAuditorium System
The Fully Automatic, Multi-Camera System
That Televises Auditorium and Classroom Lectures
Without a Crew!
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
> Is there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage?
Some relays have dual 120/240vac coils, which you wire in series or
parallel. Solid state relays normally have a very wide input voltage
range; 10:1 or so.
> I'll assume you can't use a relay with a 240V coil and expect it
> to work on 120V.
No, but the reverse is true; you can use a 120vac relay on 240vac. The
coil will overheat if you leave it on too long, but you can fix that by
using one of the relay's own contacts to switch a resistor in series
with the coil when it is pulled in. The resistor is chosen to reduce the
voltage by half (120vac across the coil, 120vac across the resistor).
> Alternatively, is there a simple circuit you can put ahead of the
> relay coil that would give it a consistent voltage regardless of
> what the plug sees?
Yes again. The simplest circuit is a plain old light bulb in series with
the coil. Light bulbs work as a crude constant-current source. Pick a
bulb that happens to provide 120vac across the coil when the line
voltage is 240vac. You'll find that on 120vac, the bulb will barely
glow, but the relay coils still has 90-100vac (enough to guarantee that
a 120vac coil will pull in).
> This might also be used to power fans, heaters, etc. while plugged in.
The high tech solution is to have a universal input switching power
supply, and use its regulated output voltage to power your relay coil.
The PFC-20 may already have such a supply with enough power for your
relay.
> I've thought about using a switch on the charging port door instead
> of a line-sensing relay to achieve this interlock function. The
> problem is that the Renault LeCar doesn't have a door over the
> former gas filler, just a flush screw-on cap.
On my LeCar, I've taken the opposite approach. The main contactors have
an auxiliary switch; its contacts are wired to the charger so the key
has to be off to enable the charger.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know there is not a lot of EV people near Nebraska but this is
definitely an event worth mentioning. The Omaha Public Power District
(OPPD) Power Drive is going to be starting it's season on March 30th.
More details are here. http://ww1.oppd.com/edu/powerdrive/index.cfm
EVWorld usually writes something up about it also but that is after it is
over. I'm hoping to attend one of the events this year.
>From the website:
"The Power Drive Program is an educational effort that challenges high
school students to design and build one-person electric vehicles during
the school year. In the spring, these teams of students compete with one
another at organized rallies in areas such as vehicle braking,
maneuverability and endurance.
OPPD started Power Drive in 1998 to give high school students a hands-on
way to apply their studies and to promote interest in automotive, electric
and energy technologies and careers. Nebraska Public Power District
partnered with the program beginning in 2001.
Based on the program's growth since its inception, it's clear that the
students, their teachers and schools have embraced the concept.
The experience the participants gain through the program is important
because they are the energy decision-makers of the future."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can honestly state that I would FAR rather put up with
higher than normal magnetic fields (which have little
scientific evidence of doing any damage), than suck gas
fumes on a regular basis at the cost of a few hundred brain
cells PER BREATH at the gas station...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi all
mine is a dc system with a low voltage of only about 48V.
i read about thsi emi issue somewhere and also saw a documentary on a tv
channel which showed how some ppl start doing strange things even without
their knowledge. one guy was suppose to displace things without his
knowledge and the whole familt decided that the house was being haunted...
so just thought i will try to know more about the emi in EVs and HEVs..
veena
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At least the red Heibao "EV 2002" is a real vehicle, it's identical to a German EV
called the "Hotzenblitz". About 100 of these were made till the mid 90s, then the
company went bankrupt. Same ol' story: technical problems, angry customers, frightened
investors...
The former owner of this company tries to get back into business and has founded a new
company in Austria, see http://www.treffpunktzukunft.com . This is the german company
mentioned on the Heibao website. Although the austrian website says that vehicles are
actually produced, I have not heard of anyone who was able to buy one, and they don't
answer to e-mails.
As I've heard from actual Hotzenblitz drivers, top speed is ~100 km/h but range is
more like 40-60 km under normal driving conditions. Energy usage is ~1Ah/km at a speed
of 70-80 km/h and slightly hilly terrain.
Even if the new motor/controller is much more efficient than the old one, 110 km range
don't seem possible to me.
Regards, Jens
PS: If YOU want to be the first US Hotzenblitz driver, two used vehicles are for sale
at http://www.hotzenblitz-service.de/scd-hand.htm ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hello -
>
> I am forwarding this for Felix Kramer, who is
starting a non-profit group
> called CalCars. You can find more information about
the group in the letter
> and by checking out their site,
http://www.calcars.org .
>
> There was a thread not too long ago about
non-profits having a high
> potential to make things happen with the automakers;
Felix has already
> invested in the concept and it is ready to roll.
>
> Please give a look when you can.
>
> thanks
> JRAB
>
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:57:00 -0800
> To: John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Subject: We can get near-EVs -- here's how, from
CalCars
>
> Despite heroic efforts by EV owners and supporters,
many people, including
> the media and the Air Resources Board are abandoning
electric vehicles.
> They're saying there's nothing between mild hybrids
and far-away
> fuel-cell vehicles.
>
> We can show them how much demand there really is for
much better cars.
>
> A group of Californians have formed the California
Cars Initiative
> (CalCars), a non-profit startup aimed at
demonstrating the market and
> commercializing plug-in hybrids, followed by fully
optimized zero
> emission vehicles.
>
> Plug-in hybrids can be all-electric for most or all
local travel, and if
> mass-produced, could lead to a return of EVs. I urge
you to learn more
> about CalCars -- at http://www.calcars.org
> -- and to support our effort to
> move toward a better future.
>
> Felix Kramer, Founder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> For people not specifically focusing on EVs,
following is the general
> introductory message about CalCars:
>
> PLEASE FORWARD this to individuals and email lists
as you feel
> appropriate.
>
>
> SUBJECT: How We Can Get Much Better Cars
>
> We wish we could have cars and SUVs that didn't
waste gas and dirty the
> air. When highway-capable electric vehicles came
along, we loved them,
> although they did have limited range. They were
briefly available and in
> short supply, but now car companies have
discontinued them.
>
> The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic "hybrids" use some
electric vehicle
> technology. But their power ultimately comes from
(mostly imported)
> gasoline. We hear lots of talk now about fuel cell
cars ... in 10-20 years.
> Yet it's possible to do much better TODAY than these
"mild" hybrids.
>
> How about a vehicle that's totally electric when you
commute or drive
> locally, gets you in the car pool lanes, and has a
small gasoline engine
> for longer distances? Hybrids that you can plug in,
when convenient, to a
> regular outlet will be the best of both worlds.
They'll be cleaner and more
> efficient than anything else you could buy.
>
> The technology has been proven. Auto makers could
build plug-in hybrids
> now, but they won't. Among other reasons, they claim
there's no demand for
> them. Enter the California Cars Initiative.
>
> CalCars has a way to demonstrate there really is a
demand for much better,
> cleaner cars, and I support their strategy. With
your and my help, we can
> own these advanced hybrids. We can make this happen
-- and get the kind of
> car we really want!
>
> Find out more at http://www.calcars.org
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Founder California Cars Initiative
> http://www.calcars.org
> PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
> cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>
This is another of those sites that Bruce is referring
to. The aim
of the project is unclear. Apparently, it is an IRS
501c3 type of
arrangement, for which contributions are tax
deductible. On the
other hand, what does the $95 go for? If it is a
deposit, that
violates IRS rules for renumeration received. Yet,
the site says
that "contributions" are
tax-deductible!!!?!??!!?!?!??!!!!?!?!
This is either a scam or tax-fraud or carelessness.
The cause of grid pluggable hybrids is a worthy one.
I think its
a great idea. But, the funding arrangements for this
company are
reminiscent of the flimsy business models of the
recent dot-com
boom. Is it too far in the past for anyone to
remember? Surely
Bruce remembers. It was really painful, not just the
personal
crises when job and sustenance disappeared, but the
horrible
breach of trust created by money grubbers who would do
anything
to seize a little funding.
The funding arrangement of the company is bordering on
fraudulent,
but the government is stretched thin with other
matters, so the
public and the venture funding community is left to
fend for
itself in deciding whether to contribute money. And,
the
founder is a dot-com era veteran. Does he list any of
his
history. No matter for the venture capital community.
The
painful memories of non-performing assets will forever
etch on
their minds the names, faces, and dead shell companies
left
behind by the fund seekers.
Where does this company get its money? (rhetorical
question)
What are its plans for revenue? Is it always going to
rely on
contributions from individuals? What venture
capitalist would
risk capital for this??!!?!?!? It used to be that
future
funding and public investment could build an
acceptible revenue
stream. No more. Money that comes from nowhere is
not money.
But, if you made your contribution, it is probably not
necessary
to worry about the IRS reversing the status. Maybe it
really is
a "donation", but consider the "cause" carfully before
giving.
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
