EV Digest 2659
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: What to do with the kids on those long drives...
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Economically Justify an EV?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Heibao
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) NEVs "almost" legal in WA state
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric Supra?
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Re. emi affects brains
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Heibao
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Heibao
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Electric Supra?
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Heibao
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Electric Supra?
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) La Route Automatis�e was Re: What to do with the kids...
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Electric Supra?
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Motors was Heibao
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris,
Here are a couple of thing to think about, if you install a relay to
break either the high voltage or low voltage circuit of your traction pack,
that will be inserting another possible failure point into your system
making it harder to find those pesky intermittent no go problem, that setup
disables the traction motor, or you could use a non-disabling circuit,
something like a back-up alarm inside the car and connect it so that when
the relay see A/C voltage it close the relay to the alarm and the ignition
key supplies the D/C to the alarm warning you not to drive off, either way
you do it there is a chance of driving off while the car is still plugged
in, like when the breaker pops or the plug gets knocked loose at the wall
end. But to answer your question a solid state relay has a universal A/C
input and a isolated D/C output, try www.mouser.com
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:29 AM
Subject: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
> After spending over four years learning all I can about EVs and
> (oh-so-slowly) building my LeSled, I'm finally getting to the point
> where I'm doing real EV-like stuff to it. So far it's been planning and
> sheetmetal work to fit 10 US145s under the hood. (This is no small
> task, and I've only been able to work on it at a rate of about one hour
> per week. Having to work for a living really bites.)
>
> Anyway, my (ahem) EV worldliness is now of little use. I'm getting into
> the nitty gritty of making one actually work. The concern du jour came
> up while laying out my wiring. This is the first of probably many
> stupid questions from the resident electrical idiot.
>
> I'll be using a PFC-20 charger, in part because I really like the wide
> range of input voltages. I also want a charger interlock relay to break
> the circuit to my contactors while charging. (For the newbies, this is
> so you can't drive off while you're still plugged into the wall.) Is
> there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage? I'll
> assume you can't use a relay with a 240V coil and expect it to work on
> 120V. Alternatively, is there a simple circuit you could put ahead of
> the relay coil that would give it a consistent voltage regardless of
> what the plug sees? This might also be used to power fans, heaters,
> etc. while plugged in. Is the easy way out of this to use a universal
> input power supply for these devices?
>
> I've thought about using a switch on the charging port door instead of a
> line-sensing relay to achieve this interlock function. The problem is
> that the Renault LeCar doesn't have a door over the former gas filler,
> just a flush screw-on cap. Making a charging port with a proper door
> would be a Big Job.
>
> Maybe the best solution would be a charger interlock built into the
> PFC-20. I didn't see any mention of one in the installation
> instructions. Rich, how hard would this be to add?
>
> How do people handle a charger interlock with variable line voltages?
>
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
its the same logo as in the bottom center of the video. They want you to
know who they are.
I think he is saying that you flop the kids in the 'other car' and have them
follow you automatically.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:35 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: What to do with the kids on those long drives...
>
>
> I didn't notice the driver in the rear car, but I did notice
> the front car
> did not have any brake lights.
>
> Any idea why both cars had the left side rear window covered?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:08 PM
> Subject: What to do with the kids on those long drives...
>
>
> > The electronic tow-bar (EV's, of course). Note the driver in the
> > following car:
> >
> > http://www.lara.prd.fr/videos/Tow-bar.mpg
> >
> > Lock
> > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Mar 2003 at 19:57, Christopher Zach wrote:
> Myself? I'm sick of this baloney and I remember all too well the 73 gas
> lines. I will not be held like that; forget it. It is not the most cost
> effective choice, but to me it's the right choice.
That's the spirit!
If you're concerned about the environmental responsibility of petroleum
refining, and have strong opinions about big corporate dominance of the
energy supply, nothing beats making your own. If you can put up enough
solar / wind / water / whatever capacity to supply your living needs and
your transportation needs, you can eliminate your payments to Big Oil and
the big energy brokers like Enron.
Right now, gathering energy from the sky to feed to an EV looks pretty good.
Yes, I know, there's biodiesel and alcohol, but making electricity strikes
me as easier and more practical than growing grain to turn into oil or
alcohol. Besides, these require their own energy input.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Mar 2003 at 8:29, Chris Tromley wrote:
> Is
> there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage?
Get a 12v universal switching supply, such as a laptop computer power
supply. This can be used for 12v "house power," including the start inhibit
relay, when the vehicle is plugged in.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Mar 2003 at 18:45, Schacherl Jens wrote:
> PS: If YOU want to be the first US Hotzenblitz driver, two used vehicles are
> for sale at http://www.hotzenblitz-service.de/scd-hand.htm ;-)
>
I like the clever battery tray. And they're nice looking EVs. But they
appear to have that annoying characteristic of most NEVs -- no real windows.
Not so good for Ohio winters. <g> The Heibao 2002 at least has doors with
(what appear to be) roll-up windows.
> Even if the new
> motor/controller is much more efficient than the old one,
> 110 km range don't seem possible to me.
Battery weight is 40%, so I'd estimate 50-60 mi (80-95km) of range.
Let's compare this with a Solectria Force. The early cars had 21-28kw
drives at 144v and weighed 950kg. The later ones had 34kw drives at 156v
and weighed 1100kg. I'd guess this car would perform somewhere in between
the two. It's definitely not for the performance minded. This car might be
real nice if lightened up with NiCd or NiZn.
I share Victor's concern over the conditions of manufacture (and quality
control), however.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Almost there!
An article in today's Seattle Times:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134656258_gocar19m.html
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A simpler and in my opinion a better way is to arrange the
charging cord and receptacle so that the cord can be pulled
out without doing any damage when you forget to unplug it.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
> On 19 Mar 2003 at 8:29, Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> > Is
> > there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage?
>
> Get a 12v universal switching supply, such as a laptop computer power
> supply. This can be used for 12v "house power," including the start
inhibit
> relay, when the vehicle is plugged in.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote:
In short, one 5135 will be plenty for Supra, unless you want it
on the race track. 5135 is used for full size OEM Mercedes as far
as I know.
Victor
Well, the AC system's peak torque is much less, but the ICE only
makes that peak torque figure at 4000 rpm.
Playing with your EV performance spreadsheet ( nice! )
I can see the peak torque from the AC motor is available
from 0 right up to 2500 or 3500+ ( depending on motor type,
and battery voltage,etc )
So it'd probably even out, in terms of overall time to get up to
highway cruising speed.
This'd work out well, I think, if I'm popping along
at 60 mph and want to pass that truck that's ahead, well
I could just make the car shift up into 4th, or if I'm
in 4th, just engage the overdrive. Revs drop, torque can
come up to the max. Accelerate, then use mild regen to slow
down again after passing said truck. Cool.
Anyway, I'm not that interested in 0-60 times or street racing -
- I want an EV that'll get me to work and back for years to come,
and won't fall apart after 5 years, like a Mini would :-(
So how would an EV equipped with Simovert inverter
( are there any "long" ones with contactors left? ), 5135 motor,
26 Optimas ( 312 volts ) and a 4-speed auto box
( electronically shiftable, lockable TC, & switchable overdrive)
perform? The base vehicle is 3500 lbs ( 1600 Kg ).
Would 26 Optimas be too high a voltage, under regen?
And how much more $$ is the 5135 motor vs say the 5133 ?
( just tell me %age extra, if you like )
I have a quote from HEC for a 5133 system, could provide
a useful "yardstick" whilst I'm playing with spreadsheets....
I do much prefer the concept of water-cooling the controller,
like Oat's Zillas or the Siemens inverters, especially since it's
so often very wet and damp here in the UK.
Thanks
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
veena wrote:
> I read about this EMI issue somewhere and also saw a documentary on
> a TV channel which showed how some people start doing strange things
> even without their knowledge... so just thought I will try to know
> more about the emi in EVs and HEVs.
Veena, the simple answer is that there is no proven link between normal
electromagnetic fields and human health. Researchers have been looking,
but have not found any connection. The only way to find any measurable
effect on human health is to use truly stupendous field strengths,
thousands of times stronger than anything you will find in an EV.
But, that does not stop people from being afraid of electromagnetic
fields. These fears are not logical, but that does not make them any
less real. We still have to acknowledge these fears, and reassure people
that the DC field strengths that you find in an EV are no different from
those produced by the earth itself, and far weaker than those of the
magnets people wear for their supposed health benefits. The AC field
strengths are likewise very small; many normal household appliances
produce similar fields.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Hmm... Victor, will you excuse me if I play devil's advocate for a
> moment?
Any time, this I hope benefit others too.
> A refrigerator motor is actually the closest thing to an EV1 motor that
> you'll find in a consumer product. They are:
...
> So, looking at a refrigerator motor (and inverter) will probably give
> you a pretty good idea what a mass-produced consumer-grade
> variable-speed AC drive will look like.
>
> I'm not saying you could put your home refrigerator motor in your EV --
> you'd need a couple dozen of them to produce enough horsepower. But the
> basic style and construction of motor is actually pretty close.
A teal good EV motor (costing $4k today), mass produced may well
cost $500, we weren't debating that.
Al I said *a person* cannot convert fridge motor to an EV
motor for $2k (as was suggested in initial email).
If Otmar can, he's probably on wrong business - redoing the
motors for $2k is better off than making complex controllers
for less than that.
As you pointed out, it's *basically* the same motor, but
modified such that you cannot just change in it something in
your garage and suddenly get EV acceptable motor.
I want people to realize that so they may avoid bitter experience
and some expenses of experiments preconditioned for a failure.
If they don't mind and like tinkering though, I have no
problem, go right ahead.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I want people to realize that so they may avoid bitter experience
> and some expenses of experiments preconditioned for a failure.
I don't think this is neccesarily true. I grant you, I'm not one of the
'wind-your-own-motors' club, but I'm pretty sure that if EV tinkerers can
learn to build their own drives (and they can, I point to Oatmar, Damon, and
Rich as proof of that) then they can probably also wind their own motors if
they get sufficiently determined.
Winding your own motor might not be _easy_ - but I don't think it's
'preconditioned for a failure'.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor;
I don't think the original poster was saying to rewind a fridge motor.
I think he was saying an ev sized motor should be no more difficult to wind
than a fridge motor. But obviously should cost only slightly more because
it's bigger.
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 3/19/03 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Heibao
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Hmm... Victor, will you excuse me if I play devil's advocate for a
> moment?
Any time, this I hope benefit others too.
> A refrigerator motor is actually the closest thing to an EV1 motor
that
> you'll find in a consumer product. They are:
...
> So, looking at a refrigerator motor (and inverter) will probably give
> you a pretty good idea what a mass-produced consumer-grade
> variable-speed AC drive will look like.
>
> I'm not saying you could put your home refrigerator motor in your EV
--
> you'd need a couple dozen of them to produce enough horsepower. But
the
> basic style and construction of motor is actually pretty close.
A teal good EV motor (costing $4k today), mass produced may well
cost $500, we weren't debating that.
Al I said *a person* cannot convert fridge motor to an EV
motor for $2k (as was suggested in initial email).
If Otmar can, he's probably on wrong business - redoing the
motors for $2k is better off than making complex controllers
for less than that.
As you pointed out, it's *basically* the same motor, but
modified such that you cannot just change in it something in
your garage and suddenly get EV acceptable motor.
I want people to realize that so they may avoid bitter experience
and some expenses of experiments preconditioned for a failure.
If they don't mind and like tinkering though, I have no
problem, go right ahead.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
>
> Hi Victor,
>
> I did say in the sentence after that, that I was aware that this was not a
> good choice for a comparison, but the point was that you wouldn't expect to
> pay $200 for a fridge motor.
> What is so different about an ev motor that makes $2000 cheap for one ?
Sorry I'm a bit limited with special terminology in English to say
what I know. Lee put it together really nicely.
In short, any powerful enough motor will *move* a car. However,
overwhelming disadvantages of cheap non optimized
design will degrade performance and durability to the point that
it will be practically unusable for every day dependable service.
Even if they would five away fridge motors, doesn't mean they
become better choices for EV.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll admit I'm not familiar with Toyota's Electronically shifted automatic
transmission. But are you saying that you can make it upshift when you want.
My brother used to race on the local dirt circle. He had an average everyday
GM automatic transmission, but this one was slightly modified. He could
allow it to shift normally or make it stick in whatever gear he chose. Is
this the same idea with Toy's auto tranny?
Stay Charged!
Hump
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Bebbington
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 3/19/03 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Supra?
Victor wrote:
> In short, one 5135 will be plenty for Supra, unless you want it
> on the race track. 5135 is used for full size OEM Mercedes as far
> as I know.
>
> Victor
Well, the AC system's peak torque is much less, but the ICE only
makes that peak torque figure at 4000 rpm.
Playing with your EV performance spreadsheet ( nice! )
I can see the peak torque from the AC motor is available
from 0 right up to 2500 or 3500+ ( depending on motor type,
and battery voltage,etc )
So it'd probably even out, in terms of overall time to get up to
highway cruising speed.
This'd work out well, I think, if I'm popping along
at 60 mph and want to pass that truck that's ahead, well
I could just make the car shift up into 4th, or if I'm
in 4th, just engage the overdrive. Revs drop, torque can
come up to the max. Accelerate, then use mild regen to slow
down again after passing said truck. Cool.
Anyway, I'm not that interested in 0-60 times or street racing -
- I want an EV that'll get me to work and back for years to come,
and won't fall apart after 5 years, like a Mini would :-(
So how would an EV equipped with Simovert inverter
( are there any "long" ones with contactors left? ), 5135 motor,
26 Optimas ( 312 volts ) and a 4-speed auto box
( electronically shiftable, lockable TC, & switchable overdrive)
perform? The base vehicle is 3500 lbs ( 1600 Kg ).
Would 26 Optimas be too high a voltage, under regen?
And how much more $$ is the 5135 motor vs say the 5133 ?
( just tell me %age extra, if you like )
I have a quote from HEC for a 5133 system, could provide
a useful "yardstick" whilst I'm playing with spreadsheets....
I do much prefer the concept of water-cooling the controller,
like Oat's Zillas or the Siemens inverters, especially since it's
so often very wet and damp here in the UK.
Thanks
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the fire station, all the rigs are plugged in. This is for block heaters
(no time to "warm up" the diesels before you go to a call) as well as to
keep all the electrical devices with full charged batteries. The socket that
we plug into has a spring loaded device that pushes the plug out when you
start the rig. And for when THAT fails, there is a one foot long extension
cord between the rig and the normal extension, with a straight plug, so if
you DO drive off without unplugging, AND the other device fails, you are at
least guaranteed that the short cord / regular cord connection is in a
straight line and can be yanked on. You still drive down the road looking
like a goof with a foot long extension cord attached.... but that is better
than yanking the plug off the wires, or out of the roof of the fire station.
Nice thing with that, is that you don't have to redesign your EV to do it.
Other way around it? Loop the charging power cord around your driver's side
mirror or door handle. Pretty obvious, then.
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
> A simpler and in my opinion a better way is to arrange the
> charging cord and receptacle so that the cord can be pulled
> out without doing any damage when you forget to unplug it.
>
> Tom Shay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
>
>
> > On 19 Mar 2003 at 8:29, Chris Tromley wrote:
> >
> > > Is
> > > there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage?
> >
> > Get a 12v universal switching supply, such as a laptop computer power
> > supply. This can be used for 12v "house power," including the start
> inhibit
> > relay, when the vehicle is plugged in.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Timothy,
Spot on, ive said this twice now but I guess it ruins Victors post topic if
he reads it and takes it in.
A motor is a motor they all have the same parts so where do you spend
thousands on a motor to make the difference was my point.
Manufacturing costs work both ways guys.
Its true that you may have to charge heaps to cover your costs relative to
sales numbers, but its also true that as long as the market stays captive
and the manufacturer controls the price he will be doing far more than
covering costs and this means its too expensive for a lot of people to buy,
so the number of sales is limited, catch 22.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt wrote:
> Victor, I give props to your AC drives, but this is a Supra we're
> talking about. Of course its got to hold its own on the race track!
> DC is totally the way to go for raw power.
Well, yes, I do want to do it justice. Especially since once I
start driving it ( and I think I am going to buy it :-), I'm almost
certain to want the same performance level after any conversion!
But I'm open to all suggestions, and AC regen would be a big plus
point - I live in Wales, and we have **lots** of hills here.
My commute to work has a couple of big hills on the motorway,
and regen could recapture significant energy coming back down.
I need to car to be able to 25 miles each way, and be able
to do that for at hopefully 2 years before replacing the pack.
( so I'm trying to get 50 miles range at 60mph out of Uve's
EV calculator... )
The "other-side-of-the-coin" is that the cops are getting pretty
hot on catching speeders here in the UK, and I don't want points
on my licence. Plus we have heaps of Gatsos ( speed cameras )
over here. So, there's no point in being able to do 140+ mph,
as there's nowhere safe to do that! ( only on a race track )
It's the nice comfy leather seats, air-con, decent brakes, strong
bodyshell with decent crumple zones and all the other luxuries
( like a decent suspension! ) that come with it that I'm after
( I wanna have my electric cake AND eat it ;-)
> BTW Richard, I say go for it! A converted dual-motor Supra would be
> totally awesome! Make it a super clean, OEM type conversion (Wayland
> style) and give it a kickin' sound system and a flashy paint job to
> boot!
Thanks for the encouragement. If I do convert it, yes it WILL be
a nice conversion.
My Mini pickup is a "rough" conversion. There are lots of things
about it I don't like, but I used it as a learning experience.
For a start, it still has some rust, give it 5 or 7 years
and it'll be a dead Mini again....
For a Supra conversion, I'm thinking of folded sheetmetal
battery boxes ( stiff & strong, yet light ) professionally
made ( and designed on our CAD systems at work! ), properly
insulated wiring with conduit, multiple contactors to isolate
battery packs, and a decent BMS to look after the batteries.
No "wires-hangin-out-the-dash" or "rolling-science-projects"
allowed!
As for the paint job, that's no problem, the bodywork is still in
beautiful condition, even after 13 years ( Kudos to Toyota ).
Lovely blood-red colour.
And of course, a suitable Wayland-style stereo system is a must!
>
> And when its done, let me take it for a spin! :-)
>
> Matt
Sure, as long as you come over to the UK - I'm not shipping
it over to the USA ! ;-)
Regards
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini Pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hehe... Hi Joe. OK. A hint. They're French! <wink>
The video is from a project conducted through most of the `90's...
http://www.lara.prd.fr/
Quote:
La Route Automatis�e is a large French R&D program to develop and
experiment new technologies for road transportation. The techniques are
mostly based on driving aids (going from driver warning to full
automation) but the objectives are the following :
Increase safety of road transportation
Minimize energy consumption
Minimize pollutions and nuisances
Offer a more pleasant living environment
Offer new transportation means available to more people
[end quote]
More specifically, the Praxitele project between 1993 and 1997:
http://www-rocq.inria.fr/praxitele/ (in French language)
Quote:
"... development of a car-sharing technologies such as simulation and
optimization tools, navigation and communication technologies, and the
development of an innovative vehicle for car-sharing with automatic
driving capabilities..."
[end quote]
Basically, the second car in the video was driverless. On autopilot
so to speak. Sorry, don't know what the covered window was all about.
The site also has amusing vid's of a car (again, no driver) parallel
parking itself (yes, I think it's an EV), and one truck with
"electronic tow bar" "attached" to another truck that's swerving all
over the world. Didn't catch any word from the site about how folks
felt about automating what looks like dangerous tailgating! :)
Lock
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
--- Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I didn't notice the driver in the rear car, but I did notice the
> front car did not have any brake lights.
> Any idea why both cars had the left side rear window covered?
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:08 PM
> Subject: What to do with the kids on those long drives...
> > The electronic tow-bar (EV's, of course). Note the driver in the
> > following car:
> > http://www.lara.prd.fr/videos/Tow-bar.mpg
> > Lock
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
>
> Minor point; you don't need software to build an AC motor drive. The fan
> in your computer is an AC motor drive with no computer or software.
>
> Software and computers are today's fashionable solution, but we've had
> AC inverter motor drives for 50+years, since the days of vacuum tubes.
> The power devices are what dominate the price.
This is one extremely rare occasions where Lee is wrong.
Indeed, you need extra silicon for every inverter but only one
time designed software. But the software is not fixed and evolving
together with other constant improvements to the inverter hardware
and new motors, it is much more than changing new motor parameters.
In case of Siemens inverters, new generation is simpler
(hardware wise): one CPU/interface PCB and six pack IGBT module.
Yet it cost more. Why?
One improvement I know of - thermal model of the motors you can attach
had to be developed, formalized, programmed, tested, debugged.
Thermal model is based on the way magnetic saturation and other
parameters are changing with the temperature. It is very difficult
to understand and predict, easier to test and measure. Many
iterations needed to get more-less complete picture of what's
going on. This is in order to de-rail the power you can supply
and still be at the edge of the motor can give you instead
of just gluing thermistor in the windings and de-rail linearly
with the temp and accept trade off for simplicity.
Necessary? No. Only high end systems are likely to be built
that way. And you're paying mathematicians, material scientists
and programmers for the development of this software. And if one
thinks such improvements aren't worth the cost - it's a personal
choice. Some drive Audi and Mercedes, some - Escorts and Corollas.
Last two are not bad cars, just as always, you get what you paid for,
nothing new here.
Victor
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Windings are the small part of what have to be changed.
Please see Lee's post.
"Humphrey, Timothy" wrote:
>
> Victor;
>
> I don't think the original poster was saying to rewind a fridge motor.
>
> I think he was saying an ev sized motor should be no more difficult to wind
> than a fridge motor. But obviously should cost only slightly more because
> it's bigger.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Tikhonov
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 3/19/03 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Heibao
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > Hmm... Victor, will you excuse me if I play devil's advocate for a
> > moment?
>
> Any time, this I hope benefit others too.
>
> > A refrigerator motor is actually the closest thing to an EV1 motor
> that
> > you'll find in a consumer product. They are:
> ...
> > So, looking at a refrigerator motor (and inverter) will probably give
> > you a pretty good idea what a mass-produced consumer-grade
> > variable-speed AC drive will look like.
> >
> > I'm not saying you could put your home refrigerator motor in your EV
> --
> > you'd need a couple dozen of them to produce enough horsepower. But
> the
> > basic style and construction of motor is actually pretty close.
>
> A teal good EV motor (costing $4k today), mass produced may well
> cost $500, we weren't debating that.
>
> Al I said *a person* cannot convert fridge motor to an EV
> motor for $2k (as was suggested in initial email).
>
> If Otmar can, he's probably on wrong business - redoing the
> motors for $2k is better off than making complex controllers
> for less than that.
>
> As you pointed out, it's *basically* the same motor, but
> modified such that you cannot just change in it something in
> your garage and suddenly get EV acceptable motor.
>
> I want people to realize that so they may avoid bitter experience
> and some expenses of experiments preconditioned for a failure.
>
> If they don't mind and like tinkering though, I have no
> problem, go right ahead.
>
> Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
Less to break. less weight. less space.
I only thought of it since, being an IRS, the motor would take less of a
pounding than if it was hooked up
to a live axle. But then that is as assumption, there may be no detriment
to it.
Sure, it's a valid point. But it'd be a direct-drive setup, so
the motor and controller will have to bigger and more expensive to get
the same performance level as a system that has a gearbox.
( see, I have learned something from building that
crazy direct-drive Mini pickup EV ;-)
Not really much in the way of drivehaft.. etc ..less mass to move around and
rotate..and you transfer a little weight to the back to offset extra weight
in the front<batteries>. Of course you could just have some batteries in
the back.. but then you have issue from some of the batteries being cold
outside and others are warm inside.. etc.
Yes, this'd help weight balance. But I was pretty much thinking
of an equal number of batteries in the front and sunk into
the trunk floor/fuel tank area. The Supra engine's big, and
must be heavy. As for temperature differences, it'll have
insulation in the battery boxes, and some of those battery
warming blankets I got for the pickup ( cool, now I have
an excuse to go and visit my friends in Canada! ). So
the batteries should all be warm and happy.
While you could run it with the lockup.. doesn't that just pull more amps,
because instead of running
at 5000 rpm, you are now running at 1,500 rpm. So i think you would
basically just max it out in second?
can you engage the lockup at any gear?
No, I'm pretty sure the torque converter could be locked up in
any gear. Anyone know more about these electronically-controlled
auto boxes? Could it could happily run around in 2nd or 3rd gear,
with the converter locked, and only unlocked for shifting or idling
to run the power steering & ABS pumps ?
I was just thinking of the simplest possible..parts wise.. which I think
would be to mate it to the read diff.
adding a single reduction allows you to try to get the most efficient rpm
for your cruising. Of course, this is at the expense of acceleration.. I
was thinking with all that nice engine bay<and trans tunnel> available for
batteries, you could hook up a nice fat motor to make it nice and torquey.
just tossing thoughts.. I certainly wouldn't take any of my statements as
the 'way to go'
That's ok, that's why I posted the question!
Suce a nice transmission would probably fetch a good price.. maybe pay for
the motor?
If the motor can be fixed simply, then that would fetch a good proce too.
supra motors are 4500 for new around here.
Certainly the engine would get sold, I heard it run today
( my friend charged up the Supe's dead battery ). Nice and smooth.
I think a good idea would be to borrow a digital camera that
can record video & audio, then take some video of the
engine being started, revved up, etc. This might reassure
potential purchasers that the engine I'd be trying sell
actually works....
Regards
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
>
> Hi Timothy,
>
> Spot on, ive said this twice now but I guess it ruins Victors post topic if
> he reads it and takes it in.
>
> A motor is a motor they all have the same parts
Garry,
Sure they all have the same parts.
Please forget this thread.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
>
> Winding your own motor might not be _easy_ - but I don't think it's
> 'preconditioned for a failure'.
A failure I mean failure to make the same (or even close) motor
than OEM EV motor.
You need to design and cast the shell (even your aluminum
motor weighs 200 lb!)
You need to alloy right metals to make temp and magnetic
properties right - so the gaps stay as designed, etc.
The guys you mentioned sure can do it provided they told
what to do and how to do it and sufficient funding available.
I'm getting tired of this thread.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks, Victor,
I have changed the topic in case there are other interested people out there
with experience in this arena.
I agree that stringing fridge motors isn't the answer ...even if it is
cheaper :)
These motors you are using are not well designed, the closest thing you can
buy to a well designed motor these days is the pancake motors often used for
radiator fans in cars.
A simple example of this is back emf, your motors are still dealing with
this when it is not necessary.
The output of an electric motor can be shrunk down to a/v in minus a/v out
minus friction equals work output.
If you simply remove back emf which is the a/v out the amount of work is
increased for the given power consumption.
For a generator to be a motor the power going in must be greater than the
power coming out, every generator is a motor and almost all motors are
generators.
I used to say all motors are generators, but I know this is not true now,
cause I can make them that way.
If we add some hypothetical numbers to this, lets say 12 volts in, to a
motor, we find that in general a motor running on 12 volts produces 8 volts
which only leaves 4 volts to both run the motor and overcome friction and
windage.
The 8 volts created in this motor has no where to go so manifests itself as
heat and you have to allow for this when building the motor so it can
dissipate this heat and still run.
We know that generators, if you double the speed more than double their
output until they reach their maximum at which point it is futile to add any
more speed because the cost of adding it is less than the return.
In case you missed it I just pointed out that your motor is a generator
above and is subject to this rule as well.
You will no doubt be familiar with people saying electric motors have a very
static output whether going slow or fast, I mean torque and horsepower here,
just like your amps and volts in, is measured in watts, your torque and
horsepower are totaled for output, and the above shows why this is.
So if you add some numbers to this to make it visible for those that cant
follow what im saying,
10 volt motor at 1000 rpm, back emf 6.5 volts, friction .5 volt total left
for drive (output) 3 volts.
same motor with no back emf has numbers that look like
10 volts in, back emf 0 volts friction .5 volts total left for output 9.5
volts
Odds are this motor is going considerably faster than 1000 rpm now and it
isn't producing heat, other than that created by friction in the commentator
and bearings.
This further means the rotor can be made of lighter materials and therefore
again more power is available for use, instead of being used to turn the
motor.
Building your own motor is not a 'preconditioned for a failure' its a
'preconditioned for a learning'.
So is there anyone out there playing with motors ?
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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