EV Digest 2840
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Status of E-Cycle?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Vancouver, BC EV Show: Saturday, June 7th!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electric Vehicles gather in Griffith Park. Some pics
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Another over-priced EV on eBay
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) A little more help needed - getting close
by "Seth Dallob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Circuit Evalutation request
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Circuit Evalutation request
by "Seth Dallob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Lectra Motorcycle and Zapworld
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Circuit Evalutation request
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Unmodified worth more?
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Status of E-Cycle?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Li Ion Series Resistance
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) electric ouboard photos (high bandwidth!)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: electric ouboard photos
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: electric ouboard photos
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Lectra Specs
by "Christian Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Peri Hartman wrote:
>>> The motor wants only the sine wave and the rest get wasted.
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Well, sort of. In a 3-phase motor, the third harmonic happens to
>> cancel out and has no effect. Other harmonics produce pulsating
>> torque, or torque in the wrong direction.
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Lee and Peri, a BLDC motor is NOT a sine wave motor it's a trapazoid.
That is true for many of the cheaply built ones, like the E-cycle. But
it is not generally true. You can design the motor for any waveform
(within reason) by shaping the poles and windings accordingly.
If you want to maximize motor efficiency, you shape the poles and
windings for sinewave operation. What you get is a PM synchronous AC
motor. But, this complicates the inverter and lowers its efficiency.
If you want to maximize inverter efficiency, you shape the motor poles
and windings for square wave operation. This is usually what people call
a brushless DC motor. Trapezoidal waves is as close as you can get. Now,
the inverter is simpler and more efficient, but the motor is worse.
So fundamentally, synchronous AC and brushless DC are the same motor,
and use the same inverter. They are just optimized differently.
> Lee the Fet losses are rather minimal at out to over 100Khz.
This is true, but most EV inverters use IGBTs. IGBTs switch much slower,
so switching losees are much higher.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> > > > Just a quick reminder to everyone that the annual EV
> > > > show and ride event, REV!2003, is happening this
> > > > Saturday, June 7th, in Vancouver, BC.
>
> Regretfully, for the first time in, I think, 8 years, I won't
> be able to make it to my favorite EV show of the year :-(
Major bummer...
> I bet this year's EVent will be the one not to miss, too,
Perhaps, but it certainly won't be the same without the glitter and raw
power of the south-of-the-border Wayland-Rudman & friends contingent of
EVs to counterbalance the local fleet of more subdued commuter EVs. Not
to mention the personalities. ;^>
> what with great weather (I still remmber that 'one' show,
> where I expected Noah and his ark to show up) and multitudes
> of spectators showing up...oh well.
Yep, one thing we appear to have in spades this year is warm sunny
weather! Not a cloud in sight as I write this, and none predicted for
tomorrow.
Next year, though... ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:.
> "Peter says they will cut a 2-3 minute segment and it will run
> either Saturday or Sunday. I believe the show is called ABC
> World News Tonight, so watch for it.
> "I want to express how valuable it is when a group of us gets together
> to talk about EVs in front of the news like this.
This is very true , I started my first EV rally in my town and it really was
just me popping my hood and being out side a local store , that was 4
years/rallies ago. Yes the more cars the better but just one is a start. I
would encourage any one with an EV to start a rally in there home town /.
Don't worry about it not being big enough ect just do it , you'll be glad
you did . Steve Clunn .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He love's his EV (and why not) and knows what it will cost to replace it .
There is a EV in my town that I have heard about but not
gone to see . Its one bought at an auction from one of the power companies ,
a ford ranger I believe , AC drive and all the goodies but it doesn't work .
What is it worth ? If it's not working not very much but if it was a
"regular" conversion I'd have been there the day I heard about it but as a
"factory conversion" I'm almost sure there's nothing I could do to get it
going . Some day when I have time I'll go look at it and may be posting
questions but I know how things go , I could spend a day and not get it
going and make no money . There a good chance of that. One reason for EV's
not selling for more is the problem of who will fix them is heavy on the
minds the people thinking of buying one. We all want the car companies to
start making/selling EV's but when they do it may put an end to all the fun
we're having building them now . A factory EV like the gas cars today will
probable not be user fixable and there won't be any trying out new
controllers/batteries/chargers ect your just get next years car if you want
something better. I'm a lucky guy I got to play with gas cars when that was
possible( 35 years ago) and got to play with electric car when it was
possible. A lot of kid's today won't get to do either . "Dad the tire on my
bike is flat and I can;t ride it " "don't worry son we'll get you a new one
" Lawn man " @#$! look at this , another perfectly good bike sitting out in
the trash with just a flat tire I can't pass that by" .
Steve Clunn----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Another over-priced EV on eBay
> [Here is the ebay seller's response]
>
> -[edited]
> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:42:14 -0500
> From: "Bill Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2417660823
>
> Thanks for your advice. If I run the ad again,
> I will put in better pictures.
> Price stays same - will keep before I give away;
> it is worth it.
> Thanks,
> Bill
> -
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> EV List Editor & RE newswires
> (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> http://calendar.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After spending most of the day working on my cart, I still can't make it
work, but I'm getting closer.
At www.sethwantswork.com/help.htm, the first picture in the gallery is
my current status.
I can make the motor go forward, and reverse, when hooked up to one
battery as illustrated in the top 2 sections.
The bottom section shows where I'm at now. I can't figure out how to
hook up the motor to the 4 post forward/reverse switch, the controller,
and the batteries. After looking at several diagrams, and trying several
configurations, I gave up and need your help.
I know that the potbox is working, and I know that the battery hookups
to the controller are working as well, according to my multimeter.
Please help me fill in the ?'s.
Seth Dallob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The first thing I would suggest is that you shrink the images down a bit
so those of us who don't have monitors with 3,000 x 5,000 resolution can
see them without having to scroll all over the place.
Secondly, if you know HTML I'd recommend dumping the javascript and
using straight HTML tags to pull up the other images. Your Javascript
doesn't work on my browser, but then again that's pretty typical of
stuff created with frontpage. I think Microsoft intentionally makes it
so that their code won't work properly on any browser other than IE.
Anyway, I'm not sure if you know this but, with a series wound motor it
doesn't make any difference which way you hook up the battery. If the
motor is spinning clockwise and you switch the + and - leads on the
battery it will still spin clockwise.
So you can get rid of the battery lead cross over in you diagram (cleans
it up a bit)
Other than that the forward and reverse drawings look fine.
Assuming it's a Curtis controller, the controller wiring looks good so
far. The + from the battery pack should connect to B+ on the
controller, the pack - should connect to B-.
The motor should connect to B+ and M- (motor doesn't care about polarity
so it doesn't matter which goes where on the motor).
The Forward reverse switch just needs to reverse the wires connected to
S1 and S2 (I'm guessing the motor's field terminals are labeled that
way)
I.e. S1 would connect to the armature and S2 to the controller to go
forward, and for reverse S1 would connect to the controller and S2 to
the armature.
On Fri, 2003-06-06 at 14:13, Seth Dallob wrote:
>
> Since I am a novice, I want to make sure that I have an accurate diagram
> before I start hooking things up.
>
> Please take a look at my proposed wiring diagram at
> www.sethwantswork.com/help.htm. It is the first picture in the gallery.
> I'm sure that I have screwed something up, as I'm combining elements
> from 3 different wiring diagrams.
>
> Thank you in advance, and thanks to Tone Barros and Roderick Wilde for
> all their help, as well.
>
> Seth Dallob
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for the quick reply. I still am not clear on the last part of your
email.
----- Original Message ----- > .
> The motor should connect to B+ and M- (motor doesn't care about polarity
> so it doesn't matter which goes where on the motor).
>
Are you saying that the motor hooks directly to the controller B+ and M-??
> The Forward reverse switch just needs to reverse the wires connected to
> S1 and S2 (I'm guessing the motor's field terminals are labeled that
> way)
> I.e. S1 would connect to the armature and S2 to the controller to go
> forward, and for reverse S1 would connect to the controller and S2 to
> the armature.
>
I do not understand how to accomplish this on my forward/reverse switch. It
is a setup with 4 posts, and the forward/reverse lever alternates a
connection between the top left/bottom right or top right/bottom left.
Pictures of the switch and the motor follow the diagram I made in that
gallery. The images are too large to attach to an email, so fix that page to
have all pictures just display without java.
The motor is not labled, and I still don't know which two are the series and
which are the armature. I just started playing with the wires and a 12v
battery until i got it to move.
I appreciate your help!
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you need a tailight lense, have to get it from Grote. Any Carquest will
order it over the phone. Lawrence Rhodes...
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 10:39 AM
Subject: Lectra Motorcycle and Zapworld
After some repeated emails, phone calls, and faxes, ZapWorld confirms that
yes, they sold the Lectra and even better, they still have a few left. Oh,
they do have some service/parts for the motorcycle. So if there are any
EV'ers out there who still want a Lectra motorcycle, there still may be an
opportunity to get one.
Christian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2003-06-06 at 22:19, Seth Dallob wrote:
> Thank you for the quick reply. I still am not clear on the last part of your
> email.
> ----- Original Message ----- > .
> > The motor should connect to B+ and M- (motor doesn't care about polarity
> > so it doesn't matter which goes where on the motor).
> >
>
> Are you saying that the motor hooks directly to the controller B+ and M-??
Yes, but if you are going to add the FWD/REV switch it needs to be
between the motor and the controller. Well at least on one lead. You
can connect the motor to B+ directly, and switch the M- lead (or vice
versa).
>
> > The Forward reverse switch just needs to reverse the wires connected to
> > S1 and S2 (I'm guessing the motor's field terminals are labeled that
> > way)
> > I.e. S1 would connect to the armature and S2 to the controller to go
> > forward, and for reverse S1 would connect to the controller and S2 to
> > the armature.
> >
> I do not understand how to accomplish this on my forward/reverse switch. It
> is a setup with 4 posts, and the forward/reverse lever alternates a
> connection between the top left/bottom right or top right/bottom left.
> Pictures of the switch and the motor follow the diagram I made in that
> gallery. The images are too large to attach to an email, so fix that page to
> have all pictures just display without java.
>
OK, hmm. Were there any large diodes included?
Or did you mean to say that in one position the switch connects top/left
to bottom left and top/right to bottom right. In the other position it
crosses them over?? This is the way I would think it works; but, if
your description is correct, then I think it needs some diodes.
> The motor is not labled, and I still don't know which two are the series and
> which are the armature. I just started playing with the wires and a 12v
> battery until i got it to move.
>
I'm going to guess that the two connections on the case (with nuts) are
your Field. The two down near the front of the motor (no nuts) are the
Armature. Doesn't matter though, even if I have them reversed it will
still work fine.
Since we are connecting them in series we can interchange our labels for
Field and Armature. Let's just go with what I've described above OK?
label one of the field terminals S1 and the other S2 (doesn't matter
which is which). Label one of the cables coming out of the motor A1 and
the other A2.
Redo your drawing. Your motor has two wires permanently attached right?
(A1 and A2)
Ok then connect A1 to the battery + (later this will be controller B+)
and leave it there. It never moves.
Connect another wire to the battery - (later M-). This end of this wire
never moves.
So now you have two wires with loose ends, one connected to the battery
and the other is A2.
To make the motor spin in one direction connect the battery wire to S1
and the A2 wire to S2. To make the motor reverse, swap these wires (A2
to S1 and battery to S2).
This reversing of the wires is what your FWD/REV switch needs to do.
Unless you can see the insides of this switch to see what connections it
makes, you need to map them out. Put the switch in forward and then
test to see if 1 is connected to 2, 3 & 4. Then check and see if 2 is
connected to 3 or 4. Then see if 3 is connected to 4.
Next put the switch in reverse and recheck all of the above connections
(1 to 2,3 or 4... 2 to 3 or 4, and 3 to 4)
Write down ALL connections that are made in each position and let me
know.
Once you get all of this figured out WITHOUT CONNECTING THE
CONTROLLER!!! and make sure that nothing shorts out...then you can wire
the batteries up to the controller per your diagram and connect what
ever was (tested to work) connected to battery + to controller B+ and
what was connected to battery - to controller M-
> I appreciate your help!
>
No problem.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, that would be 'deafscooter.' He talks about himself in the third person
and talks in rhymes and riddles. (If you've ever played 'Starflight' and
met the Veloxi, you'll know what I'm talking about.) This scooter also has
'super secret patent motor' (meaning you'll never get a replacement when it
burns up), and the buyer has to sign a contract that they will never
disassemble or reveal the way the motor is made (buh-bye troubleshooting
help.)
So basically it's a scooter that "might" go 70 mph for a while, but for all
intents and purposes, has no motor.
Tim
----------
From : "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject : Unmodified worth more?
Date : Thu, 5 Jun 2003 20:58:40 -0700
I see a scooter on eBay with claims of a 70mph top speed sold for $500 less
than the same one in its original state - does that mean bidders didn't
believe the seller, or just didn't want altered goods?
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Would pair of these work?
> > http://www.metricmind.com/inverter1.htm
Rich Rudman wrote:
> On first sight they look like they would outclass all but a Zilla
> 2k and 336 volts. But, my feeling is 240 amp at any volts is not
> enough current to get the monster torque we need to launch.
>
> What we want is a inverter that makes and can sustain 600 amps
> per phase, and a single motor that can live for 10 seconds at this
> level.
This is probably heresy, but there are small cheap efficient inverters
that can deliver 600 amps per phase at 300+ volts for 10 seconds. It's
called a commutator. :-)
Maybe what you want is a 6-pole motor-driven rotary switch that
synthesizes the 6-step 3-phase waveform. Use it for racing, or whenever
you foot is floored. Any other time, the solid-state inverter is used.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been conditioning some of Gary Graunke's Thunder sky Li ion cells.
After completing three charge discharge cycles on one of the cells I
decided to try to investigate the current capability of the cell.
Starting from a fully charged state I measured the voltage of the cell as I
increased the discharge current in 10A steps upto 60A. I did these steps as
fast as I could, pausing approximately 5 sec at every step.
After completing the readings I discharged the cell at ~27A for 30min. I
then set the current to 0A and waited 1 min. I then repeated the process of
taking data in 10A steps.
This was repeated until the cell was essentially fully discharged.
A graph of the data is on Gary's web site at
http://ev.whitecape.org/lion/Cell89ResistancevsSOC.PDF
I would be interested to know what system voltages people plan on running
with the cells. What kind of current draws are planned?
Chris Brune
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone is interested, I did a relly quick web page with 2 photos of
my electric outboard. When they are resized it didn't trim the file size
so watch out, they are 1.2megabytes each. When it is done, I will submit
it to the EVDL photo album.
the URL
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3v25q/photoalbum/
Seth
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<If anyone is interested, I did a relly quick web page with 2 photos of
my electric outboard. When they are resized it didn't trim the file size
so watch out, they are 1.2megabytes each. When it is done, I will submit
it to the EVDL photo album.
the URL
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3v25q/photoalbum/>>
Drop the dpi to 80 or so and it'll load faster. Looks like a neat
installation, especially if no-one can see that it's electric!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<A graph of the data is on Gary's web site at
http://ev.whitecape.org/lion/Cell89ResistancevsSOC.PDF>>
Looks like you want your Li Ion pack a little discharged *before* you go
drag racing! I'm just guessing here, but wouldn't these get pretty hot, like
a 360V nominal pack generating nearly 2kw of waste heat when you're pulling
out 12hp?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Starting from a fully charged state I measured the voltage of the cell as I
> increased the discharge current in 10A steps upto 60A. I did these steps as
> fast as I could, pausing approximately 5 sec at every step.
IIRC these cells have a 3.6V nominal rating. If this is so then a 100%
SOC battery requires 60 Amps to knock the surface charge off?
Hmm, interesting.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, it is called FrankenMerc II, as it started out as a Mercury and
has a little lighting bolt action going on inside. I am going to get a
Frankenstein and lightning bolts airbrushed on the sides, or at least
that's the plan. So much for stock. I am considering raising the roof a
few inches on the cowl to make it stealth and more splashproof. That's a
bit of carbon fiber work and foam. Maybe that will be next season.
FrankenMerc I was that lower unit, an Ametek BLDC motor and Transmag
controller. Two controllers blew up before it saw water last year. I am
starting to believe in the power of mechanical (versus electronic)
commutation after that experience.
Seth
The Levine Family wrote:
>
> <<If anyone is interested, I did a relly quick web page with 2 photos of
> my electric outboard. When they are resized it didn't trim the file size
> so watch out, they are 1.2megabytes each. When it is done, I will submit
> it to the EVDL photo album.
>
> the URL
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3v25q/photoalbum/>>
>
> Drop the dpi to 80 or so and it'll load faster. Looks like a neat
> installation, especially if no-one can see that it's electric!
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about 15.4KW at 85%SOC to 26.3KW at 25%SOC!
Good thing I'm only planning on using 309V nominal pack drawing up to
1.5C or 135Amps: only 13.2KW at 85%SOC to 22.6KW at 25%SOC. ;-)
My previous numbers suggest that I would go over 100A only about 6% of
the time with my everyday driving so far. (I'm using a 168V pack now, and
that's my >200A percentage. However, there are hills around here!
(Victor, do you have the SIADIS statistics on time in power brackets
from the ACRX? You live on a substantial hill, whereas I live in a almost
flat part of town).
This makes me think a bit more about a hybrid pack, using some small
but powerful Hawkers with about a third of the internal resistance to take
the brunt of the current draws and the (slightly modified for DC input)
PFC50 to recharge them while I drive. One could set the input current down
to .3C or 27A to optimize the LiIon pack life.
I could drop down to 56 cells for 201V at 27A for 5.4KW. If I still
go with the full pack of 86 for 309V it would be 8.3KW--probably still
enough for steady freeway driving.
Gary
=========================================
"The Levine Family" writes:
<<A graph of the data is on Gary's web site at
http://ev.whitecape.org/lion/Cell89ResistancevsSOC.PDF>>
Looks like you want your Li Ion pack a little discharged *before* you
go
drag racing! I'm just guessing here, but wouldn't these get pretty
hot, like
a 360V nominal pack generating nearly 2kw of waste heat when you're
pulling
out 12hp?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
What I'd like to do is create a small website that identifies the most often
replaced parts with their off the shelf replacement. For example: Lectra 11
tooth sprocket = X part, or Lectra Front Fork Seals = Yamaha DT50MX/80MX.
That way, I 'd eventually help Lectra owners and hobbyist repair, or even
build a Lectra, thus keep what I consider to be one of the most able
electric two-wheelers on the road. I'd hate to see the Lectra become a
distant memory. If you have such information, please let me know.
Christian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Christian Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: Lectra Motorcycle and Zapworld
> If you need a tailight lense, have to get it from Grote. Any Carquest
will
> order it over the phone. Lawrence Rhodes...
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
> from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christian Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 10:39 AM
> Subject: Lectra Motorcycle and Zapworld
>
>
> After some repeated emails, phone calls, and faxes, ZapWorld confirms that
> yes, they sold the Lectra and even better, they still have a few left. Oh,
> they do have some service/parts for the motorcycle. So if there are any
> EV'ers out there who still want a Lectra motorcycle, there still may be an
> opportunity to get one.
>
> Christian
>
--- End Message ---
