--- Begin Message ---
Just to clarify...
I have a Prius, and I'm up to 50K miles now, and I've run out of gas about 7 times so
far, which the dealer and Toyota have said is something you should never ever do.
I've gone from 1/2 to 5 miles in this no-gas situation, including one time when I
underestimated the distance involved and after about 6 miles, the Prius stopped and
would not budge. A phone call to a friend, a trip to a gas station, and a fill-up
from a portable gas container later, the Prius happily started up and motored on.
So, although I've been told there are issues with running totally out of gas in the
Prius, I've never seen them myself.
jorg
ps Interesting statistic I've been told: the average male runs his car to 10% full
before re-filling. The average female, 25%.
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thu 6/19/2003 4:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Hondas (Insight and Honda Civic Hybrid) are electric-turbo gas cars. Run out
of gas, you don't go. Electric only suppliments power when you're
accellerating, and provides braking and electricity recapture when slowing
down. Otherwise an all-gas vehicle with an oversize starter, to kick-start
the gas engine from a stop.
Toyota (Prius) is an electric/gas parallel system. At low speeds it can be
driven as all-electric, provided (1) the gas engine and exhaust system are
already warmed up, (2) the battery pack is mostly to fully charged, and (3)
you are accellerating slowly to no require the gas engine to suppliment
power. I've heard that in the Prius if you run out of gas you have
additional problems. The fuel line incorporates a bladder/reserve, which if
that runs dry must be primed before the car will restart.
None of the current hybrids, nor any of the future US-manufactured hybrids,
provide true EV propulsion beyond the gas engine (except as qualified for
the Prius). Out of gas, out of luck. If you forget to plug in (with gas),
you stop running (just like any gas car).
Every car plugs in, whether to a gas pump or an electrical outlet. The
outlet is more efficient and much less pollution. Still waiting for the true
plug-in hybrids...
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Carmen Farruggia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:46 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: hybrid??
I probably missed this question and answer in the last few weeks or few
thousand posts which ever came first but I'll ask anyway.
What happens when a hybrid runs out of gas? Does the EV kick in? Or does
the car just not run?
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
------_=_NextPart_001_01C336BA.50C2659F"
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:27:14 -0700
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Thread-Topic: hybrid?? run out of gas
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From: "Jorg Brown--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:33:04 -0400
From: Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Charging at campgrounds
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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> The main issue was 120 vs. 240V power. As far as I can tell, most
> campgrounds only have 120V outlets for RVs. They're typically something
> like 120V, 30A outlets. I use 240V to charge and specifically asked for
> 240V, they all said they had it. Campground 1 did have it, it was a
> crows-foot outlet on one of their shop buildings. No problem. Campground 2
> also had 240V, he had it in a shop building and used it for welding. OK.
> Campground 3 said they had it, but when I went to plug in it turned out to
> be 120V! The owner thought the big outlet meant 240V. I wound up plugging
> in to the outlet for the electric dryer in the campground's laundry room
> (luckily, nobody was doing laundry).
Hm. That is a serious problem. The Prizm charges *very* slowly on 120
volts; the onboard Dolphin unit can only put about 3 amps at 300 volts
into the pack (barely a kilowatt). Charging to recover from a 40 mile
trip would take about 13 hours.
The MagneCharger is a totally different story. Charges at 19 amps at 300
volts for a charge time of about 2 hours for a 40 mile range. However it
needs 240 volts at 30 amps (and really uses all of the 30 amps) or 40
amp circuits.
Any other ideas for places which would have 240 volt outlets?
Chris
>
> I ended up using a standard crows-foot plug for all these locations, but be
> aware that most of the campground hookups you'll find will be 120V unless
> it's something like a 50 or 60A hookup. Talk to the managers, hopefully
> they'll know what they have.
>
> If you just charge on 120V, you won't have a problem.
>
> See http://www.portev.org/solectria/ho/amherst.htm for details on my
> cross-country trip. Hey -- Coincidence! It was exactly four years ago
> today!
>
> -Tom
>
> Thomas Hudson
> http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
> http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
> http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
>
>
>
>
From: "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:42:08 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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I'm just wondering...How did you manage to run out of gas...7 times...in the
same car?! There has to be some kind of interesting story behind that or
something. I consider myself pretty brave with my '91 CRX HF, and I
routinely drive with the needle way below empty on the gauge. I have never
run out of gas in my entire life.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jorg Brown
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Just to clarify...
I have a Prius, and I'm up to 50K miles now, and I've run out of gas about 7
times so far, which the dealer and Toyota have said is something you should
never ever do.
I've gone from 1/2 to 5 miles in this no-gas situation, including one time
when I underestimated the distance involved and after about 6 miles, the
Prius stopped and would not budge. A phone call to a friend, a trip to a
gas station, and a fill-up from a portable gas container later, the Prius
happily started up and motored on.
So, although I've been told there are issues with running totally out of gas
in the Prius, I've never seen them myself.
jorg
ps Interesting statistic I've been told: the average male runs his car to
10% full before re-filling. The average female, 25%.
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thu 6/19/2003 4:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Hondas (Insight and Honda Civic Hybrid) are electric-turbo gas cars. Run out
of gas, you don't go. Electric only suppliments power when you're
accellerating, and provides braking and electricity recapture when slowing
down. Otherwise an all-gas vehicle with an oversize starter, to kick-start
the gas engine from a stop.
Toyota (Prius) is an electric/gas parallel system. At low speeds it can be
driven as all-electric, provided (1) the gas engine and exhaust system are
already warmed up, (2) the battery pack is mostly to fully charged, and (3)
you are accellerating slowly to no require the gas engine to suppliment
power. I've heard that in the Prius if you run out of gas you have
additional problems. The fuel line incorporates a bladder/reserve, which if
that runs dry must be primed before the car will restart.
None of the current hybrids, nor any of the future US-manufactured hybrids,
provide true EV propulsion beyond the gas engine (except as qualified for
the Prius). Out of gas, out of luck. If you forget to plug in (with gas),
you stop running (just like any gas car).
Every car plugs in, whether to a gas pump or an electrical outlet. The
outlet is more efficient and much less pollution. Still waiting for the true
plug-in hybrids...
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Carmen Farruggia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:46 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: hybrid??
I probably missed this question and answer in the last few weeks or few
thousand posts which ever came first but I'll ask anyway.
What happens when a hybrid runs out of gas? Does the EV kick in? Or does
the car just not run?
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:53:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Manufacturing EVs (was: RE: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is
dirty)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't think it is a good idea to try and sell EVs that are not atleast
as safe as their ICE counterparts as it could only take one crash to end
the business.
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:44:04 +1200 "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I don't know about you but we have exemptions to our frontal impact
> rules
> here so im guessing you too have these.
>
> Forward control vehicles are exempt like vans because they can never
> hope to
> save your life if the front crumples and you are in it.
>
> We have exemptions also for non forward control vehicles like
> previa's that
> are really just vans with longer noses on them and are essentially
> still
> forward control even though these are not automatically exempt.
>
> If you are going to make a 3 wheeler then surely you make an
> identical 4
> wheeler and once you have a number of the 3 wheelers running around
> you
> point out that your 4 wheeler is safer and apply for an exemption or
> change
> to the rules instead of making a totally different 4 wheeler.
>
> If that doesn't work look for loop holes and maybe make a 6 wheeler
> and
> register it as an atv, here we have an exemption for "traction
> engines" so
> go look up traction engine and then electric traction engine and see
> what
> you find , maybe this will help you.
>
> Perhaps you build a 3 wheeler with a really fat rear tire and then
> the next
> lot with 2 skinny tires at the rear and see if that gets past, where
> there
> is a will there is a way.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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From: "Brian Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Battery and fuel cell article
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:45:24 +1000
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Compares batteries and fuel cells with the author favouring DMFCs - Direct
Methanol Fuel Cells as a viable future alternative to current battery
technology for portable electronic devices. Some reference to EVs also.
http://www.dansdata.com/gz022.htm
Regards,
Brian Hay.
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:57:12 -0600
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Keith Vogt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
The Prius uses a sealed gas bladder system to eliminate evaporative emissions. The
gauge is less accurate than the "open tank" system. You are supposed to refill at 1/4
a tank, or when 2-3 bars show on the gas gauge. 3 bars can turn into 1 bar in a few
minutes sometimes depending on driving conditions.
Most Prius drivers multiply their MPG's by 10 and compare that with the trip odometer
to know when to refuel (11.7 gallon tank in summer, 9.8 gallons in winter).
One gallon goes 50 miles so us Prius drivers tend to "push it" to see how many miles
we can get out of one tank.
-----Original Message-----
From: bholmber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 5:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
I'm just wondering...How did you manage to run out of gas...7 times...in the
same car?! There has to be some kind of interesting story behind that or
something. I consider myself pretty brave with my '91 CRX HF, and I
routinely drive with the needle way below empty on the gauge. I have never
run out of gas in my entire life.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jorg Brown
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Just to clarify...
I have a Prius, and I'm up to 50K miles now, and I've run out of gas about 7
times so far, which the dealer and Toyota have said is something you should
never ever do.
I've gone from 1/2 to 5 miles in this no-gas situation, including one time
when I underestimated the distance involved and after about 6 miles, the
Prius stopped and would not budge. A phone call to a friend, a trip to a
gas station, and a fill-up from a portable gas container later, the Prius
happily started up and motored on.
So, although I've been told there are issues with running totally out of gas
in the Prius, I've never seen them myself.
jorg
ps Interesting statistic I've been told: the average male runs his car to
10% full before re-filling. The average female, 25%.
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thu 6/19/2003 4:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: hybrid?? run out of gas
Hondas (Insight and Honda Civic Hybrid) are electric-turbo gas cars. Run out
of gas, you don't go. Electric only suppliments power when you're
accellerating, and provides braking and electricity recapture when slowing
down. Otherwise an all-gas vehicle with an oversize starter, to kick-start
the gas engine from a stop.
Toyota (Prius) is an electric/gas parallel system. At low speeds it can be
driven as all-electric, provided (1) the gas engine and exhaust system are
already warmed up, (2) the battery pack is mostly to fully charged, and (3)
you are accellerating slowly to no require the gas engine to suppliment
power. I've heard that in the Prius if you run out of gas you have
additional problems. The fuel line incorporates a bladder/reserve, which if
that runs dry must be primed before the car will restart.
None of the current hybrids, nor any of the future US-manufactured hybrids,
provide true EV propulsion beyond the gas engine (except as qualified for
the Prius). Out of gas, out of luck. If you forget to plug in (with gas),
you stop running (just like any gas car).
Every car plugs in, whether to a gas pump or an electrical outlet. The
outlet is more efficient and much less pollution. Still waiting for the true
plug-in hybrids...
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Carmen Farruggia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:46 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: hybrid??
I probably missed this question and answer in the last few weeks or few
thousand posts which ever came first but I'll ask anyway.
What happens when a hybrid runs out of gas? Does the EV kick in? Or does
the car just not run?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:06:44 -0700
From: Andrew Foss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Li Ion/Lead Acid and battery recycling....
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello ev folks,
I drive a Solectria Force and my Lead Acid batteries may be going at 25K
miles. Though I've checked all of the easily accessible ones and they
show 13.2 volts. If in fact, I just have 1 or 2 bad ones, are there any
sources of used batteries? Does putting in 1 or 2 new batteries
debalance teh old battery pack? I'd heard Don Gillis?sp? of EAA might
sell used batterys.
I understand people may be experimenting w/ Li Ion, are there any more
details available? That sounds very interesting. Are the Li Ion bats
recyclable?
thanks,
andrew
Date: 20 Jun 2003 00:37:31 -0000
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: TdS Report #78: Drive To Survive: Acetylene and Alcohol Engine
TdS Report #78: Drive To Survive: Acetylene and Alcohol Engine
OK. All you people out there who know ALL about cars and fuels; raise your
hands if you have ever heard of using acetylene and alcohol in an internal
combustion engine ... 1 ....... 2 ....... Just as I thought, not many. I
certainly had not.
I had to talk to Harry J. Wulff, who was part of the Drive to Survive, to learn
about it. "We tried this about 3 1/2 years ago in a Briggs and Stratton engine
and found out it worked very well. We filed and received a patent on the
delivery system. You can look it up on the Internet. We found we get an
increase in horsepower, from 7 to 12 percent, in this Saturn with an engine
that has not been `mapped'." Mapping sets the controller to the specifics of
an individual engine. "It's a very expensive process. In our case we have to
map the acetylene, and then the alcohol, and then the acetylene and alcohol
together. There are something like 18,000 entry points; for every RPM, for
every load," for every combination of operating conditions to optimize the fuel
injection.
Acetylene is a gas. Alcohol is a liquid. How do they get into the engine?
"The alcohol is in the liquid tank. It is compatible because the fuel system
is set up for E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline)." So the alcohol is introduced
into the engine through the original injectors. The acetylene is kept in gas
cylinders in the trunk, with regular welding torch gauges. The gas is brought
forward and plumbed to four more injectors in the intake manifold. "A
programmable ACU has control over all of this. These two fuels have to be
delivered separately. We inject first the alcohol, and get it coming
downstream with the air. Then we inject the acetylene, because it has too low
a flash point. By doing it this way, we prevent preignition which would occur
if the acetylene was injected by itself. They key is to have the proper
opening time and pulsewidth on each injector.
"We are getting 340 to 366 miles from two tanks of acetylene and that is the
equivalent of just over 6 gallons of gasoline. At the same time we use 7 to 9
quarts of alcohol. Alcohol has about half the BTU of gasoline."
Where does acetylene come from? "They claim you could make acetylene out of
87% of the earth's crust. In carbide form, most of it comes from the leftover
slag off steel manufacturing, or when the oil industry makes polymers or
plastic pipe. It is a waste material, from I think 14 industries. In Brazil
they make it from eucalyptus trees. We are working with the charcoal mills in
southern Missouri, because when you are making the charcoal, you can make both
the alcohol and the acetylene at the same time."
Acetylene is C<SUB>2</SUB>H<SUB>2</SUB>. "It is the hottest hydrocarbon known
to mankind, and they say it cannot produce any carbon in the engine, so it
burns perfectly clean with no residue build up. At the same time we can
control the heat of the burn in the cylinder. We can get complete combustion
at 644 degrees C. We prefer to run around 1140 or 1150, where we don't make
any of the NOx gases."
"Our theory is if you want clean emissions, burn clean fuel. There is no sense
in burning fossil fuels that are dirty and then trying to clean them up. I
think the ammonia baths on the big trucks are going to turn into a horrible
nightmare."
What was the spark (pardon the pun) that got this all started? "My nephew is
the inventor. He came to me with this and I said, `I don't think it will
work.' I blew a neighbors jeep up about 30 years ago doing this, because we
always start our farm vehicles on acetylene in the winter. It has a low flash
point just like ether."
"We are really not ready for exposure yet. We are building our infrastructure
and setting up our business plans. We are going try to license this technology
to retrofitters." Harry thinks they could sell kits for between $500 and $700.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2003 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2003 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:43:04 -0700
From: Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: hybrid??
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jorg Brown wrote:
> ps Interesting statistic I've been told: the average male runs his
> car to 10% full before re-filling. The average female, 25%.
Humm, I must not be average, I run my Insight down till all the bars
are gone, probably 2%. I've run our twice, once I made it to a gas
station a block away, then circled the lot just to verify I wasn't
EV imagining. The other time I quickly filled from my on-board 1gal
emergency tank in the fast lane of the I-520 to I-5s Interchange, !fun.
We've tossed this "What exactly is a hybrid?" idea arround before...
Here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/message/55683
Where there seems to have been some rescent discussion on the thread.
and Here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/honda-hybrid/message/11462
and Here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/honda-hybrid/message/8091
The 'It's not Electric, if you can't plug it in!' Thread.. and Here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/messagesearch?query=Hassle%20Ford%20daily
The way I see it the current "hybrids" are mostly a distraction from
the much better sollution offered by BEV's or a grid-chargable hybrid.
The indistry is making these 100% Gas Powered hybrids that are no doubt
cleaner than a standard 100% Gas Powered car. But in the end all of the
hybrids are still dependent on gas, and I find it difficult to produce
my own gas.
A BEV, or Grid-Hybrid on the other hand can be powered by 100% clean
sources such as photovoltic and wind. I can go out and invest in some
PV pannels, or some mini-wind generators. If you don't want to invest
in your own PV-Power station, than use the grid power. If your Grid
power comes from dirty coal, don't blame the clean electric car, fix
the dirty power plant!
Tell me, do you understand "exactly" how a super clean ICE such as the
one in the insight works? Care to guess how many moving parts there
are? How could it possible be better to have to go to such great
lengths producing clean ICE's, When I can teach a 3rd grader "exactly"
how an electric motor works in a matter of 5 minutes. That same child
could build a motor with just a few feet of copper wire, 7 nails, and a
chunck of particle board. So an EV drive system is "slightly" more
complex, though it can achieve a total system effeciency of 90% or
better. How effecient to you think my Insight is, The best of all ICE's?
ICE = 20% effecient, Pollution, Wars, Terrorisim... or
FCV = 20% effecient (EtoH50% HtoE50%), $,$$$,$$$, new H infastructure? or
BEV = 90% effecient, 1 moving armature, potentialy 100% Clean.
Here's how I see it, Spend $100,000 on a big PV or Wind setup.
Spend $20,000 for an EV. Spend $1000 every 2 years for new batteries.
Over my 100 year lifespan that's $170,000, then my children will spend
$50,000 for their entire lifetime. Plus I can probably heat my house,
keep my food cold, light my patio all for nothing.
Or, I could buy a $20,000 ICE car each 10 years.
Put fuel/oil into them at 52 weeks, 500miles/weeks, 20mpg, $2/gal=$2600
each year for fuel. and about 52,000lbs of smog. (at $5/gal = $6500)
That's $460,000 over the course of my lifetime, and nothing to show
for it in the end, except for the 5,200,000lbs of pollution and some
130,000 gallons of for ever used up fossil fuel.
BEV = <200K and 50K for each generation after, no pollution
ICE = >500K, nothing for kids but 5 million lbs of crap in the air.
"All things being equal,
the simplest explanation
tends to be the right one". -Occam's Razor.
Humm, I think I'll go for the BEV, maybe someday my batteries will be
H2, but till then Lead-Acid, Nickle-Metal, Lithium-Ions will do fine.
L8r
Ryan
damon henry wrote:
> Depends on the Hybrid. The Honda's don't move without the gas motor
> running, but there are reports of them being able to limp their way to
> the gas station if you are within a couple of hundred yards when the ICE
> has died due to lack of fuel.
>
> The Prius routinely moves itself in EV only mode in reverse. It also
> does this going forward under very light acceleration and slower
> speeds. I think it can make it a mile or two with a full charge at slow
> speeds.
>
> damon
>
>
>> From: Carmen Farruggia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: hybrid??
>> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:45:39 -0700
>>
>> I probably missed this question and answer in the last few weeks or few
>> thousand posts which ever came first but I'll ask anyway.
>>
>>
>> What happens when a hybrid runs out of gas? Does the EV kick in? Or
>> does
>> the car just not run?
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Guy Morin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LiIon batteries.
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:52:16 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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One needs to recommend extreme caution with LiIon batteries. They get hot as
the discharge, and, unlike most batteries, the electrolyte is flammable.
They also get ruined if they are overcharged (cell voltage > 4.3V).
There is a lot of discussion on the evlist, which is archived at
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/messages
My Insight conversion at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/461.html will
eventually use them.
However, right now we are just testing them so that we are sure we
understand how to properly care for them.
My test results are posted at http://ev.whitecape.org/lion
I believe that your low voltage EV will probably draw way too much current,
causing them to overheat (or worse) and significantly shortening their
lifetime. (Ralph Merwin recently saw this with 100AH SAFT STM100 NiCd
batteries in a 120V pack in his Geo.
Note that the manufacturer only publishes 1.5C (150A) discharge curves,
while most others (say Hawker at www.hepi.com ) publishes much higher
discharge rates that EV's require during acceleration. The reason is that
even at 27A, they get very hot. (See the discharge curves on my website).
You might also consider the internal resistance--most of that voltage drop
will go to heat!
For your application, you would likely require a hybrid pack of high-power
lead-acid batteries fed by the LiIon pack via a PFC20 charger (modified to
take DC input).
I currently plan a 309V pack of 86 90AH cells, enabling me to keep the
current draw very low (plus my Siemens AC controller has a programmable
limit to ensure this).
Alternatively, I may use 240V of 16AH Hawker Gensis batteries for the power
pack and 200V (56 cells) 90AH LiIon cells to charge the Hawkers at a
constant 27AH or so (.3C) draw. I have a PFC50 charger that can provide the
8 KW if properly modified to take DC input.
I will be using a triply redundant cell voltage and temperature monitoring
battery management system (still being designed after the cells are
characterized) to keep things under control, and a forced air battery
cooling system.
There is a lot of discussion on LiIon and hybrid packs on the ev list.
Again, I would recommend extreme caution when dealing with LiIon batteries.
I would hate to see them explode or catch fire in an improperly designed
system.
At some point, those of us that are early adopters will make our mistakes
and pay the penalties. Unless you have a well rounded, extremely capable
team to help with this (I could not do this without the help of many
others), I would suggest you wait until they are better understood in the EV
environment.
The NiMH are much better behaved. They do get hot, but are much better
behaved.
The most cost effective, robust batteries are still golf cart batteries!
I'm copying the EV list on this reply. Some more experienced EV folks may
have more and better advice for you than I.
Regards,
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Morin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:46 PM
Subject: LiIon batteries.
> Hi Gary,
>
> In corresponding with Arthur Matteson in regard to LiIon
> batteries from China, your name came up.
>
> Basically, I am looking for improved energy pack for an
> electrical vehicle. My vehicle only needs something like
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] using LiIon.
>
> LiIon is and obvious candidate given ~4x increased energy
> density over lead-acid. Have been looking at D-cells in
> NiMH, and other solutions.
>
> Arthur suggested I contact you to find out how you managed
> to source the batteries. My curiosity is whether the China-
> made batteries are real, if they are available, and whether
> they perform.
>
> One web site with the Thunder-Sky batteries, or a knock-off
> is advertised at US$190 per 3.6V 100Ah cell. With 14 cells,
> to make a 48V power supply, we are looking at $2660. In lead-
> acid, 100 Ah, and 48V makes for something like $1400.
>
> Is there flaw in the calculations? Were you able to do the
> math, and come up with something reasonable?
>
> Thank you for any insights.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Guy
--- End Message ---
